Place in tier list

[Zx2963]

Anyone feel that Falco is a not behind Fox anymore on the tier list?

 

[Dragrin]

I feel Falco was much better in melee and if there is a chance to pass fox it would be in that game and not in project M. Falco has trouble with some of the new cast that fox just does not because of the speed difference. I really love Falco and all but he is only about mid teir

 

[Ritsugamesh]

New to forums, but yeah I would say mid/mid-high for current PM Falco. His neutral game is still strong, if not a little weaker then Melee, but his recovery is so god awful and a good portion of the cast can follow him off-stage without any fear due to the overall buffed recoveries.

 

[DontHate-]

Falco is most certainly not behind fox in this game. Most of the cast have great on and off stage game.. falco, on the other hand, only has great onstage game. Off stage, falco is not coming back for the most part. If you're a falco main, it's probably best to have another pocket character because falco can not do it all anymore (in melee he was God because only viable characters were top 8-10). In pm, pretty much every character is viable and falco wins a good portion of the match ups but also loses a bunch of the match ups too) Id say he is in the mid-high of high-tier. Not top tier material though (thats reserved for fox and a bunch of brawl characters). Think of characters like mewtwo, lucus and mario (who are pretty much garranteed top at this point). They can make so many more errors (falco has to play nearly flawless), are amazing on stage, and are amazing off stage as well.

 

[IAmEnel]

Falco and Fox are very similar. Honestly, I prefer Falco but Fox is better statistically.
I would easily place Falco in top tier, just below Fox.

 

[HK_Spadez]

as of right now falco definitely does not feel like his melee counterpart. so i dont put him behind fox anymore. more mid-high teir like others have mentioned.

they need to make him smaller. closer to his melee size. and maybe give him his melee jab again.

 

[Zekk]

Honestly I think that falco is number 6 because of the recovery options 1 is mewtwo the recovery and combo game is insane

 

[Scaremonger]

There are people in this forum, right now, that actually think Falco is mid-tier.

 

[Zx2963]

There are people in this forum, right now, that actually think Falco is mid-tier.

Because he is..?

 

[Scaremonger]

Because he is..?

Tell me why you think that.

 

[HK_Spadez]

Tell me why you think that.

i dont think he's mid teir. but i do think he is mid-high. his recovery seems to be worse. he's definitely slower than his melee counterpart. and his up throw is impossible to follow up nowadays.

 

[Zx2963]

Tell me why you think that.

Just watch any PM Falco and you'll understand

 

[Scaremonger]

i dont think he's mid teir. but i do think he is mid-high. his recovery seems to be worse. he's definitely slower than his melee counterpart. and his up throw is impossible to follow up nowadays.

Please tell me this is some kind of weird trolling.

Just watch any PM Falco and you'll understand

PM Falco players are just bad. It isn't the character

 

[HK_Spadez]

Please tell me this is some kind of weird trolling.

no? PM falco character model is larger than his melee counterpart, but they kept the same speed as his melee self. hence, he feels slower. this has been discussed before.

 

[Scaremonger]

no? PM falco character model is larger than his melee counterpart, but they kept the same speed as his melee self. hence, he feels slower. this has been discussed before.

So some tiny, insignificant difference makes the entire character bad? Okay.

 

[Zx2963]

So some tiny, insignificant difference makes the entire character bad? Okay.

Insignificant to you, but harmful to the meta that has developed around every *tiny* aspect of Falco. Their is a reason why he's one of the lower played characters

 

[Scaremonger]

lol

-------

 

[2 C H i L L E D]

Falco is still top tier, and maybe or maybe not behind Fox. (Pit & Mewtwo can possibly challenge his position there. More so Mewtwo.) Falco, imo has the greatest onstage game of the entire cast. Lasers ensure that your pressure never lets up, and Lasers are still as nearly as effective as they were in Melee. The problem is in PM so much of the cast have absolutely amazing recoveries. So while Falco combos and racks up tons of percent on an opponent, the opponent will keep coming back. Leaving more of a chance for the Falco player to make a mistake and lose his stock. There are also a couple of characters that will punish Falco stock-by-stock, like Mewtwo for example. Make a mistake and you've potentially lost your stock. So Falco didn't really get worse (besides those small nerfs everyone kept crying for). Falco just became much harder to play than his Melee counterpart, giving the impression that the he has dropped from top tier.

And to add to the above debate PM Falco's, are for the most part, terrible. Honestly most of their thought processes are: "Okay I got a bit of tech skill. Now all I gotta do is shine combo and laser, and I'll win. That's Falco right....right???" No that's not Falco, the platform game of Melee Falco mains and PM Falco mains are miles apart. It's like PM players don't realize how much that aids his onstage game, and incoming mixups. When I want to watch a good Falco play, I will watch Melee matches. Because there simply isn't enough dominate/smart Falcos in the PM community.

 

[Scaremonger]

I agree with most of your post, 2chilled. Falco still has possibly the strongest onstage presence of any character. Another common reason I hear cited for Falco's fall from top tier is "PM has floatier characters so Falco can't combo", but that's bologna since the only characters that are really too floaty for Falco are Luigi, Peach, Zelda, Samus, and Puff, and he does not lose to any of those, though I think the latter 4 are even MUs. But your original point about onstage game is very very true. Lasers are so effective for stage control, approaching, etc, and that combined with his combo game makes him very powerful onstage. That's such a tiny tip of the iceberg on why Falco is a good character, but I don't want to write a novel and that's the very basic gist of it.

The one thing I disagree with is recoveries. Falco is a bird with a gun and a pair of steel boots and he doesn't give a **** about your broken recovery. Looking at Melee, Falco is slightly different from the other top tiers in that he isn't really equipped for gimping. Fox has his shine, Marth has dtilt, and his aerials, Sheik has needles and stuff, etc. Falco does not have weak moves to just keep tapping someone offstage and gimp them; he's not a gimpy character at all. Falco kills either by comboing/tech chasing into an fsmash, landing a strong bair, or spiking. He doesn't have a strong offstage presence. Falco doesn't care that Link can now recover from a million light years away, He isn't going to come back if you spike him above like 60-ish% or fsmash him above X%. Am I saying that pretty much universally better recoveries do not affect Falco at all? No. Is Falco now mid-tier because characters are more adept at getting back to the stage? Absolutely not.

There are a few minor differences with Falco's character, yes. Changing his running speed from 1.4 to 1.39 isn't going to do anything. Falco is fundamentally a fantastic character. He's just well designed. Tiny, fairly insignificant changes aren't going to affect that. Falco was dead anyway if he went offstage in Melee, so his up+b being slightly shorter doesn't make him mid-tier. Against a good player, he should not be coming back period. Honestly, his up+b served more of a purpose for coming back after going slightly offstage from a spike rather than defensively recovering.

And yeah, there really just aren't many good PM Falcos right now. The best PM Falco is probably DEHF, but I haven't seen much of him since Apex. If I'm not mistaken, Apex 2014 is still the largest PM tournament ever held, right? Falco was in the top 8. It's just because barely anyone plays him now that you don't see any amazing ones.

Oh and by the way

Insignificant to you, but harmful to the meta that has developed around every *tiny* aspect of Falco. Their is a reason why he's one of the lower played characters

PM Falco mains are bad, but saying he's UU is just stupid.

 

[Zx2963]

I agree with most of your post, 2chilled. Falco still has possibly the strongest onstage presence of any character. Another common reason I hear cited for Falco's fall from top tier is "PM has floatier characters so Falco can't combo", but that's bologna since the only characters that are really too floaty for Falco are Luigi, Peach, Zelda, Samus, and Puff, and he does not lose to any of those, though I think the latter 4 are even MUs. But your original point about onstage game is very very true. Lasers are so effective for stage control, approaching, etc, and that combined with his combo game makes him very powerful onstage. That's such a tiny tip of the iceberg on why Falco is a good character, but I don't want to write a novel and that's the very basic gist of it.

The one thing I disagree with is recoveries. Falco is a bird with a gun and a pair of steel boots and he doesn't give a **** about your broken recovery. Looking at Melee, Falco is slightly different from the other top tiers in that he isn't really equipped for gimping. Fox has his shine, Marth has dtilt, and his aerials, Sheik has needles and stuff, etc. Falco does not have weak moves to just keep tapping someone offstage and gimp them; he's not a gimpy character at all. Falco kills either by comboing/tech chasing into an fsmash, landing a strong bair, or spiking. He doesn't have a strong offstage presence. Falco doesn't care that Link can now recover from a million light years away, He isn't going to come back if you spike him above like 60-ish% or fsmash him above X%. Am I saying that pretty much universally better recoveries do not affect Falco at all? No. Is Falco now mid-tier because characters are more adept at getting back to the stage? Absolutely not.

There are a few minor differences with Falco's character, yes. Changing his running speed from 1.4 to 1.39 isn't going to do anything. Falco is fundamentally a fantastic character. He's just well designed. Tiny, fairly insignificant changes aren't going to affect that. Falco was dead anyway if he went offstage in Melee, so his up+b being slightly shorter doesn't make him mid-tier. Against a good player, he should not be coming back period. Honestly, his up+b served more of a purpose for coming back after going slightly offstage from a spike rather than defensively recovering.

And yeah, there really just aren't many good PM Falcos right now. The best PM Falco is probably DEHF, but I haven't seen much of him since Apex. If I'm not mistaken, Apex 2014 is still the largest PM tournament ever held, right? Falco was in the top 8. It's just because barely anyone plays him now that you don't see any amazing ones.

Oh and by the way

PM Falco mains are bad, but saying he's UU is just stupid.

Wow I derped

 

[iiGGYxD]

I lol'd at all of this, twas a good read.

 

[Blazing Seraph]

Falco lost a lot in translation, it was an inevitable fall. Why is fox restored to his former glory while falco is brought down? He is definitely good, but not even near second on the tier list. The new matchups he was given definitely give him more competition, for him to climb ahead of fox would take a miracle. (*cough* or the upcoming recovery nerfs *cough*)

 

[Zx2963]

Falco lost a lot in translation, it was an inevitable fall. Why is fox restored to his former glory while falco is brought down? He is definitely good, but not even near second on the tier list. The new matchups he was given definitely give him more competition, for him to climb ahead of fox would take a miracle. (*cough* or the upcoming recovery nerfs *cough*)

He didn't really lose anything, just that they made characters do what he does way better with less skill involved (Mewtwo)

 

[Blazing Seraph]

He didn't really lose anything, just that they made characters do what he does way better with less skill involved (Mewtwo)

Also true, but he did lose his recovery momentum from Firebird, and his melee dash animation was arguably lower and safer. Just the little things have made a big impact

 

[RecklessGreen]

Not sure which version you may refer to, but here's what I think.
PM: He's really good. Top Tier at best. His dairs mean instant kills if used outside of the edges. And not to mention his shine, to dair, and repeat can get very irrating.

In SSB4, I'd say Middle. He's not as strong as Fox, and his dair isn't great. His down B can be useful at times to distract your oppoenent, but his back-air may need some more knockback. It just isn't as strong as everyone saids it is

 

[Blazing Seraph]

Not sure which version you may refer to, but here's what I think.
PM: He's really good. Top Tier at best. His dairs mean instant kills if used outside of the edges. And not to mention his shine, to dair, and repeat can get very irrating.

In SSB4, I'd say Middle. He's not as strong as Fox, and his dair isn't great. His down B can be useful at times to distract your oppoenent, but his back-air may need some more knockback. It just isn't as strong as everyone saids it is

We are talking PM to Melee differences, not Smash 4 to PM differences. in PM, Dair-Shine *I believe you mean pillaring* can be DIed out of, plus his recovery is so bad in PM compared to the rest of the cast. After 3.5 with the recov nerfs, he may be top 5 again, but as of now, I cannot see him being *very* high on the list

 

[GeZ]

We are talking PM to Melee differences, not Smash 4 to PM differences. in PM, Dair-Shine *I believe you mean pillaring* can be DIed out of, plus his recovery is so bad in PM compared to the rest of the cast. After 3.5 with the recov nerfs, he may be top 5 again, but as of now, I cannot see him being *very* high on the list

Dair > Shine combos are not what pillaring is.

 

[Boomhound]

First of all Falco is top tier, everyone should accept this as fact.

He still has one of the (if not THE) strongest neutral games of any character and this is why his recovery is irrelevant- if you're not controlling the pace and neutral then you're losing as Falco, that has always been the case in Melee and PM is no different.
Stronger PM recoveries are irrelevant to his D-air.

People only think of Falco vs. Fox and forget that his play style CAN be altered to fit the MU such as it was in Melee vs. Peach or Jiggs.

Intermediate Falcos not adapting to PM MUs is the bottom line here, please put aside any notions you have of spacies being brain dead tech-skill spamming characters and learn to bait and read to win- that's how you really out-play your opponent, it works in PM too.

I couldn't agree more with what ^Scaremonger^ said.

 

[Blazing Seraph]

First of all Falco is top tier, everyone should accept this as fact.

He still has one of the (if not THE) strongest neutral games of any character and this is why his recovery is irrelevant- if you're not controlling the pace and neutral then you're losing as Falco, that has always been the case in Melee and PM is no different.
Stronger PM recoveries are irrelevant to his D-air.

People only think of Falco vs. Fox and forget that his play style CAN be altered to fit the MU such as it was in Melee vs. Peach or Jiggs.

Intermediate Falcos not adapting to PM MUs is the bottom line here, please put aside any notions you have of spacies being brain dead tech-skill spamming characters and learn to bait and read to win- that's how you really out-play your opponent, it works in PM too.

I couldn't agree more with what ^Scaremonger^ said.

A true and concise statement, I think you wrapped this whole discussion up perfectly.

 

[Zx2963]

First of all Falco is top tier, everyone should accept this as fact.

He still has one of the (if not THE) strongest neutral games of any character and this is why his recovery is irrelevant- if you're not controlling the pace and neutral then you're losing as Falco, that has always been the case in Melee and PM is no different.
Stronger PM recoveries are irrelevant to his D-air.

People only think of Falco vs. Fox and forget that his play style CAN be altered to fit the MU such as it was in Melee vs. Peach or Jiggs.

Intermediate Falcos not adapting to PM MUs is the bottom line here, please put aside any notions you have of spacies being brain dead tech-skill spamming characters and learn to bait and read to win- that's how you really out-play your opponent, it works in PM too.

I couldn't agree more with what ^Scaremonger^ said.

If he is top tier, then he is by far the hardest to play as

 

[Rhumagricole]

I don't know about falco being THE hardest to play as, I somewhat disagree since every top tier characters require some amount of technical skills. imo fox and falco require the same amount of skills at a top level, since they share some advance mechanics (waveshine, shine-grab, multi-shine...) and then fox has a easier time with his Upsmash but falco has a easier time with his laser. Its all about capitalizing on what makes a character good in the end, the skill level required is similar in my mind.And yeah, I would certainly put falco in the top tier although some of the new match-ups of PM (vs diddy, vs snake, vs metaknight...) can be hard on him.

 

[Zx2963]

I don't know about falco being THE hardest to play as, I somewhat disagree since every top tier characters require some amount of technical skills. imo fox and falco require the same amount of skills at a top level, since they share some advance mechanics (waveshine, shine-grab, multi-shine...) and then fox has a easier time with his Upsmash but falco has a easier time with his laser. Its all about capitalizing on what makes a character good in the end, the skill level required is similar in my mind.And yeah, I would certainly put falco in the top tier although some of the new match-ups of PM (vs diddy, vs snake, vs metaknight...) can be hard on him.

Few people use Falco at the highest level, honestly he is kinda trashy. Also by hardest, I mean MU-wise, almost every character has a counter for him and he has lost a lot of his strengths thanks to recoveries

 

[Scaremonger]

Few people use Falco at the highest level, honestly he is kinda trashy. Also by hardest, I mean MU-wise, almost every character has a counter for him and he has lost a lot of his strengths thanks to recoveries

All of this is something that has already been explained to you as incorrect. Why do you continue to argue about things that you've already been told are wrong? Like you literally acknowledged that you were wrong several comments up, yet you go back to arguing it just a bit later. I legitimately don't understand this thought process.

 

[Zx2963]

All of this is something that has already been explained to you as incorrect. Why do you continue to argue about things that you've already been told are wrong? Like you literally acknowledged that you were wrong several comments up, yet you go back to arguing it just a bit later. I legitimately don't understand this thought process.

I guess you misunderstood me, all I'm saying is Falco isn't as strong because of the recoveries buff and the various other buffs characters have been giving to deal with spacies.

 

[EpixAura]

I honestly do believe Falco to be one of the weaker characters in the game. I think most of us would agree that FOX is roughly high tier, probably a top 10 character (opinions vary all over the place, but this seems to be the general consensus). Next, I present that argument that Falco is worse than Fox in this game. I am very aware of how hard it is to compare characters, but don't immediately judge my argument based on this.
Essentially, Fox's tools are better suited for PM than Falco's are, so while they were close in Melee, there's a much more noticeable gap. The biggest illustration of this is Fox's potential vs. Falco's kill potential. In Melee, Sheik, Marth, Falcon, and other spacies were the most popular characters. Falco could kill these characters easily by putting them in a position where they could not recover. Character like Peach and Puff where harder to kill, as they would reach a percentage where you could neither combo them nor kill them. They would take a Bair to the face, recover, you would need to repeat that a few more times to actually kill them. Even though they were at a high percent, you needed to win the neutral game several times in a row to get a kill. Fox, on the other hand, won these matchups because he killed off the top. It's not because they're floaty characters, although that helps. It's because Fox kills off the top instead of the side, making their incredible recovery a near non-factor. In a game like PM, where recoveries are better in general, killing off the top is MUCH more valuable than killing off the side.
Secondly, Falco's lasers are not as valuable as a tool in PM. Characters like Squirtle and Bowser are given tools specifically to deal with this kind of thing, and they are not the only examples. Fox's lasers, on the other hand, are not affected by things like these. I can site quite a few other reasons that aren't quite as important, such as the stage list, the slight nerfs to shield pressure benefitting Fox more because he has the option to forego pressure and simply grab whereas if Falco does that, he'll rarely ever get a followup, and the nature of certain characters' edgeguards, which often cover every option Falco has, but not all of Fox's.

tl;dr Killing off the side isn't nearly as valuable as in Melee, and plenty of characters have neutral options that make lasers much less effective. Simply put, I can't see Falco being above mid-tier in this game, and I everyone who I've discussed this with shares this sentiment.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I would say Falco is mid-high. Still has his good neutral and amazing combo game + good kill moves on the stage, but recoveries are still good (mind you overall nerfed.) Fire Bird DOES feel better in 3.5 however. Overall mid-high for me, he's still Falco, he can still pressure and work on you really well, but he has much more competition now. Also he has PAL Dair, god damn it PMBR D:. I'll live.

 

[EpixAura]

I would say Falco is mid-high. Still has his good neutral and amazing combo game + good kill moves on the stage, but recoveries are still good (mind you overall nerfed.) Fire Bird DOES feel better in 3.5 however. Overall mid-high for me, he's still Falco, he can still pressure and work on you really well, but he has much more competition now. Also he has PAL Dair, god damn it PMBR D:. I'll live.

I am so happy to hear these words.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Give it a try, it's apparently ported ACCURATELY from Melee now since I think it was EVEN WORSE in P:M before this update. I can safely say that, to me, it FEELS a bit better and it might just be placebo but I'm pretty sure it's true.

 

[Boomhound]

I honestly do believe Falco to be one of the weaker characters in the game.

I think you're underestimating Falco a bit.
The majority of the characters considered to be above him don't have great killing off the top options either- or at least no better than his Dtilt, nor do they have as strong a neutral game as he does.
However they have better recoveries, that can't be argued. Like mentioned before though a commanding neutral game balances this to a degree.

It's pointless to mention shield pressure because this doesn't factor in either space animals' placement, not even in Melee. It's their pressuring in the neutral that makes them a threat, and no character is exempt of this pressure.

On the topic of his lasers- if you feel many characters have options to escaped them then you probably have laser spamming in mind, which isn't how they should be used anyway.
Falco can still laser-grab, laser-reset, interrupt a tech option and interrupt a recovery with his lasers.

Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion on the matter, I'm just glad to give mine to help people suss theirs and luckily this thread is full of answers from all sides.

- On that note I think Falco's strength in combos, neutral game, powerful move-set, developed meta and array of killing options carries him well above mid-tier placement.

Edit: As a topic of interest here's the most recent PM tier list
http://clashtournaments.com/project-m-3-02-final-tier-list/

 

[pkblaze]

Just give me melee-levels of SDI on my up-throw lasers and we'll call him good.