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PKAY FIAH! ~ Ness MU Discussion [INDEX PAGE + Various Discussions]
- Thread starter Yink
- Start date
mib004
Smash Ace
ness should not be low tier..
FaWa
Smash Apprentice
60-40 in favor of snake? I disagree. 55-45 at most, but I think it is neutral. Just get him low off the stage and spike his recovery to death. He has a lot of advantages on the ground, but getting him in the air gives you an extreme advantage. Take advantage of how you are much faster then him. PK Flash is a general don't here. Just try to be one step ahead of him.
Bartolon
Smash Lord
It would never be 55-45 man O_o
FaWa
Smash Apprentice
Meaning in favor of Snake, sorry, I didn't clarify that.
Sync_
Smash Journeyman
The Ness-Snake MU isn't too hard for Ness. The only issue I find is the ridiculous speed of Ftlit and Utilt.
I'd say 55-45 in favor of Snake.
I'd say 55-45 in favor of Snake.
§leepy God
Smash Master
♪ QFT! Ness is more broken than Mewtwo is in the Pokemon games. >:] †
Eagleye893
Smash Champion
Snake is one of the few characters that require little to no skill to play well... I can understand MK, DDD, Falco (to an extent), Kirby, wario, etc., but some like Diddy, Snake, ZSS can get away with just being campy and throwing random stuff at you from a safe distance until you do something... the only character that I've got a near fool-proof strategy to counter is Diddy, but I'm not great with it...
Snake, to basically bring myself and my opinions up to my current level, is actually really difficult to deal with, if you don't fight snakes often. They can simply just throw grenades from a distance, gradually increasing your percentage, wait for you to approach, use a quick move like his DACUS or ftilt or pressing R as he is holding a grenade to allow more options... PKfire doesn't help to a great amount here, because the snake can normally either DI out or pull out a grenade at the right moment, giving you some damage in turn... basically everything relies on his mortar or grenade to set up into something that he can do, at least from mid to far range... PKT doesn't reach, stops on impact with a grenade (if hitting with head), and will most likely be shielded or completely avoided. PKfire can be okay if you want to switch it up, but one must first ensure that they are a safe distance from the snake, then ensure that there will be a significance in using it... one shielded PKfire can basically give them a free DACUS or other things... PSI Magnet is near useless here... one may argue that you can blow the grenades back at the snake, but the force is so little and the risk of doing so is so great that it doesn't even matter.... although you could lure the snake into a DACUS and push him off a ledge, possibly causing a random aerial off the stage, but thats getting into rare occasions... fair sucks when factoring in grenades... unless you can space perfectly every single time, i would greatly lessen its use... my main aerials are basically all but fair in this matchup, because i've fallen prey to many luring tactics of snakes and subjected myself to the torture of many explosions... dtilt = pointless, utilt = okay, ftilt = pointless... PKflash!!! i forgot about that, but who couldn't with the very few uses it has in the snake matchup...basically if you can predict and mindgame an opponent snake player, you can use it to your advantage many times in a game...
in terms of aerial combat, snake is at a giant loss... you have many epic aerials to take on the airborne foe, which doesn't have much of anything going for him other than his nair or bair.... his fair is predictable and slow, his uair is weird, but expectedly and easily avoidable; his dair is okay, but nowhere near as bad as nair IMO... his bair is quick and has killing power, although few snakes that i've seen actually get to using it because they like their safety on the ground. nair has multi hitting hits, which are somewhat difficult to SDI and can fairly easily combo into one another. staying nearer the ground while approaching safely can be my best advice for us, but basically if you get one aerial hit you are well off in getting another on him... unless of course you are me and your controller decides to completely disregard any attacks as you approach the snake, allowing for something like a well placed nair, uair, bair, or fair on the snake's side....
tech chases and grabs? great..... the snake players love making you think you are trapped... and trapping you.... nearly always, they will go for grabbing you when you are either near an explosive they have recently put into play OR if you are under a usmash mortar, where they just wait while they pummel you... best technique? don't get grabbed, and expect a grab when you are approaching them and they have explosives at the ready... if you aren't careful, you could either end up getting KOd or taking a ton of damage...
random quirks... as i've mentioned before, you've got the wind to blow back nades... we've got the bat to hit either a mortar or a missile, which is really rare... One of my favorite things to do, which is very difficult to get off in real play, but theoretically seems epic to me, is you let the snake dacus towards you, jump above, time it right so that a psi magnet wind pushes them just off the edge, and watch and be amazed as your opponent either has epic skills and gets back with ease, uses an aerial, falling to their near doom, or times a great recovery. the falling to their doom is the best case scenario... another thing, dair wins offstage. snake is owned if you play it right and time correctly where you use your dair on the snake...
basically, the matchup depends on if you can get the snake above you, because if you can then you have a greater chance of winning... if the snake is on the ground and you are the one trying to approach, you have to play really skillfully in order to pull ahead... I say 60:40 snake in most situations, because he is a heavier character and nearly impossible to kill unless you get lucky... if you can motion your opponent into doing something that benefits you, then you can get a slightly better probability of winning......
Snake, to basically bring myself and my opinions up to my current level, is actually really difficult to deal with, if you don't fight snakes often. They can simply just throw grenades from a distance, gradually increasing your percentage, wait for you to approach, use a quick move like his DACUS or ftilt or pressing R as he is holding a grenade to allow more options... PKfire doesn't help to a great amount here, because the snake can normally either DI out or pull out a grenade at the right moment, giving you some damage in turn... basically everything relies on his mortar or grenade to set up into something that he can do, at least from mid to far range... PKT doesn't reach, stops on impact with a grenade (if hitting with head), and will most likely be shielded or completely avoided. PKfire can be okay if you want to switch it up, but one must first ensure that they are a safe distance from the snake, then ensure that there will be a significance in using it... one shielded PKfire can basically give them a free DACUS or other things... PSI Magnet is near useless here... one may argue that you can blow the grenades back at the snake, but the force is so little and the risk of doing so is so great that it doesn't even matter.... although you could lure the snake into a DACUS and push him off a ledge, possibly causing a random aerial off the stage, but thats getting into rare occasions... fair sucks when factoring in grenades... unless you can space perfectly every single time, i would greatly lessen its use... my main aerials are basically all but fair in this matchup, because i've fallen prey to many luring tactics of snakes and subjected myself to the torture of many explosions... dtilt = pointless, utilt = okay, ftilt = pointless... PKflash!!! i forgot about that, but who couldn't with the very few uses it has in the snake matchup...basically if you can predict and mindgame an opponent snake player, you can use it to your advantage many times in a game...
in terms of aerial combat, snake is at a giant loss... you have many epic aerials to take on the airborne foe, which doesn't have much of anything going for him other than his nair or bair.... his fair is predictable and slow, his uair is weird, but expectedly and easily avoidable; his dair is okay, but nowhere near as bad as nair IMO... his bair is quick and has killing power, although few snakes that i've seen actually get to using it because they like their safety on the ground. nair has multi hitting hits, which are somewhat difficult to SDI and can fairly easily combo into one another. staying nearer the ground while approaching safely can be my best advice for us, but basically if you get one aerial hit you are well off in getting another on him... unless of course you are me and your controller decides to completely disregard any attacks as you approach the snake, allowing for something like a well placed nair, uair, bair, or fair on the snake's side....
tech chases and grabs? great..... the snake players love making you think you are trapped... and trapping you.... nearly always, they will go for grabbing you when you are either near an explosive they have recently put into play OR if you are under a usmash mortar, where they just wait while they pummel you... best technique? don't get grabbed, and expect a grab when you are approaching them and they have explosives at the ready... if you aren't careful, you could either end up getting KOd or taking a ton of damage...
random quirks... as i've mentioned before, you've got the wind to blow back nades... we've got the bat to hit either a mortar or a missile, which is really rare... One of my favorite things to do, which is very difficult to get off in real play, but theoretically seems epic to me, is you let the snake dacus towards you, jump above, time it right so that a psi magnet wind pushes them just off the edge, and watch and be amazed as your opponent either has epic skills and gets back with ease, uses an aerial, falling to their near doom, or times a great recovery. the falling to their doom is the best case scenario... another thing, dair wins offstage. snake is owned if you play it right and time correctly where you use your dair on the snake...
basically, the matchup depends on if you can get the snake above you, because if you can then you have a greater chance of winning... if the snake is on the ground and you are the one trying to approach, you have to play really skillfully in order to pull ahead... I say 60:40 snake in most situations, because he is a heavier character and nearly impossible to kill unless you get lucky... if you can motion your opponent into doing something that benefits you, then you can get a slightly better probability of winning......
Sync_
Smash Journeyman
tl;dr
lol no.
I agree with keeping him in the air.
Btw, mind sharing your fool-proof plan against diddy? (smirk)
milesg2g
Smash Champion
Not really
Some High Tiers do require skill
I think Snake requires some what skill because he has to set up stuff to kill. Granted he has super strong tilts and neutral hits but still he has to set up stuff to camp. Though not all snakes even know what their doing to win.
Ghnaschnakoff
Smash Journeyman
IMO Snake is definately not an easy match-up if played against a serious Snake main. He can camp Ness quite easily and on most occaisons his F-tilt beats an F-air appoarch. His grenades are one of his most annoying aspects but not difficult to dodge. Don't try to pick them up and throw them back, the Snake player will expect that. If you can predict a DACUS, you can punish it with a PK Fire and put on a decent amount of damage. As for killing, all Snake mains know that their recovery is easily gimped so they do it smartly. IMO don't do what they expect (ie try to D-air) just camp the edge if they're recovering that low and if they're recovering higher, of course watch out for falling C4, and since Snake doesn't have much to do to protect him from underneath him, mindgame the airdodge and juggle. I find that nearly all of my kills come from a PK Fire > B-throw, so play patiently.
Snake meta game is actively progressing or as I hear at least. While Ness's is going no where at the moment. What it takes to beat a Snake IMO is that you have to genuinely better than the Snake player. Snake is a naturally better character and Ness just has to start going places otherwise he will end up in low tier where he doesn't belong. I'd put the match-up at 65-35 to Snake
It probably sounds like I rambled a little and didn't follow a stream of thought but I hope it makes sense.
Snake meta game is actively progressing or as I hear at least. While Ness's is going no where at the moment. What it takes to beat a Snake IMO is that you have to genuinely better than the Snake player. Snake is a naturally better character and Ness just has to start going places otherwise he will end up in low tier where he doesn't belong. I'd put the match-up at 65-35 to Snake
It probably sounds like I rambled a little and didn't follow a stream of thought but I hope it makes sense.
Sync_
Smash Journeyman
I don't know how you do that...
Unless the snakes you play have hella bad DI.
Do they get trapped in the PK Fire and then you B-throw them? Because B-throw kills snake at about 120 percent-ish? At a low?
I don't get how you get a Snake stuck in PK Fire with that high of a percent.
In fact, you shouldn't really be using it that high...
milesg2g
Smash Champion
He's right.
The most annoying thing I have with snakes are their ability to DI out of almost anything especially the Bthrow. If you can just easily catch A SNAKE in a pkf @ 120% that snake is a horrible brawler. The best way to deal w/ a snake would be buffering your moves w/ the decay system. Now I know some of you don't care much for it because I don't either but when it comes to snakes it's a must. When your faced w/ a snake your more then likely gonna use the bthrow for the win. So to do that and get your throw to it's full strength you have to use a large amount of differnt moves to buff your Bthrows power back up. You think i t wont work but you'll be able to tell the difference if performed well. Also w/ the grenades pkt comes in handy. The head stops the grenade and the tail makes the nade blow up. Some people say "Oh snake'll just DACUS when the nade stops" True but if you play it smart he'll have a hard time doing that. Example: If you spin the pkt around your body gaurding yourself from the nade it'll explode w/ him the moment he DACUS' to you. (Smarter thing to do is put pkt in the middle w/ some sort of rotation for these matters)
Man of Popsicle
Smash Lord
PKT2 beats dacus.
You can cancel the actual mortar of the up smash with a lot of moves.
You can cancel the actual mortar of the up smash with a lot of moves.
§leepy God
Smash Master
♪ How long are we discussing Snake? O_o †
ViceGrip
Smash Journeyman
Have any of you tried actually outcamping snake w/ pkt? it works for me, use the tail to blow up any nades along the way to Snake and then when you reach him w/ the head, either direct it into a weak spot in the sheild or just lower his sheild with it and repeat. Thunder is a great camping tool vs snake and I would highly recommend using it to combat his nade camping. As for pk fire, it's a MUST in this matchup but if you are too predictable with it you are just asking to get Dacused or ftilted. the best thing it to keep snake on his toes with projectiles and grabs/ariels and trying to keep him in the air as much as possible. Imo the matchup is 55-45 Snake (Just cause he's so beastly-ftilt is 21% wtf is that).
NessBrawler
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2009
- Messages
- 55
get him in the air seems to be a powerful tactic snake is strong but his recovery can leading to the stomp easily... but getting him in the air could be tricky...
I tried out-camping my friends Snake and it just wasn't working for me. :/ Would you recommend doing this on a stage with or without platforms? I was going to ask you for some advice on how to fight Snake, but I figured I'd try to play my friend and maybe V-TEK's Snake to learn myself.
Eagleye893
Smash Champion
I feel the need to approach sometimes, because some of the snakes are just that good at throwing the nades.... I could probably try the pkt camping, but some people can place their mortar really well and hit it with the slamming of the mortar into the ground... I think... Lol... Nvm... Pkt camp = good, pkfire = good with proper spacing... Yeah, I agree with vicegrip... The thing with ftilt is you can sdi the first hit and be safe... Yoyos are useless...
Yubi
Smash Cadet
When fighting a Snake is also really important NOT TO GET GRABBED! Snake can grab release Ness to any tilt (Specially U-tilt for the KO). Playing extremely defensive helps a lot in this matchup. Catching and throwing grenades also helps a lots. Ness also has an advantage in edgeguard overall against snake so getting him out of the stage means free damage or even maybe a gimped KO in early percentages. Punishing Nairs is also easy using F-smash or a reverse grab for the KO. Ness needs to attack and move after Snake to have an advantage.
ViceGrip
Smash Journeyman
Yea getting grab released to ftilt/utilt sucks but oh well, just part of the matchup, getting down thrown hurts about just as much considering if he regrabs you. Uffe, I camp Snake on almost Every stage, Eventually I'll try and put up a vid of outcamping Snake to give you an idea. The trick is to jump up in the air sometimes just to be harder to hit as well as detonating the nades w/ the tail of thunder on the way to snake. Eventually you will win this camping battle because his sheild will become low enough to shield stab every time. Swirl your thunder around snake as much as you can before attempting to sheildstab/reduce his sheild. keep practicing, snakes eventually stop camping as much and i find that when they are forced to approach you it's much more in your advantage.
milesg2g
Smash Champion
I keep on trying to tell ness Mains this.
if you want to beat a snake you have to out camp him. If the head of PKT hit's a nade it stops it in it's tracks. Most snakes don't even know what to do from that point because they don't face Ness' that do it. I go to my local tournies every weekend or so and I very rarely play snake mainers. But I can say all of the 1's I've played on Wifi fall for the same thing. I said this before, If you uthrow/fthrow theyre in the air ready to be PKT combo'ed. The best way to use PKT (On any character but mainly snake because he's taller) is to drag the tail under snake so that it racks up damage as you swing the head around snakes body. The only problem I ever have w/ snakes are their unhuman strength
Bartolon
Smash Lord
I do a dj cancel like in mid-air to PKT. And let the camp begin lol
smash64
Smash Champion
*sigh* camping just isnt my style =/
NessBrawler
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2009
- Messages
- 55
get used to it. THIS IS BRAWL! but... how long have we been talking about this matchup?
Yink
The Robo-PSIentist
Oh he'll keep picking it. It's one of Snake's best stages.Perhaps I wasn't jumping high enough. I kind of wish my friend would stop choosing Luigi's Playboy Mansion.
Whenever I play Joker490Frozen I keep enough distance between myself and him and I know it's risky but I watch how long he holds a grenade and if it's too short I catch it and throw it back. Watch out if you get close to Snake because they just LOVE to drop grenades next to you. Also watch yourself for his C4. He can plant it on you and though it blows up in 26 seconds a lot of stuff can happen in that time. If you get a C4 planted on you stay close to Snake and be ready to shield. If you shield and you're close enough to him he will blow up! Also stay close because you can give him the C4 back if he's trying to grab you and might not notice. Be careful with USmash > Dthrow > FSmash.
Basically I keep distance, use some PKFire and PKT, enough Fairs and it works out pretty well. Also if the Snake isn't smart I Grab Gimp. Or I spike, he's one of the easiest Characters to do so.
You and me both.
milesg2g
Smash Champion
Mine either dude
But It's brawl the game relies on almost camping and running. I'm very aggressive w/ Ness Because I'm used to playing melee where even if someone camped all day you could just rack up damage so quickly it made no difference. But man these kids just don't understand good fighting games anymore =/. But I'm not even going to lie if i was a kid growing up in this generation of smash and all I had to do is camp my *** off to win 1k I'd do it too.However, I don't completely camp w/ PKT I Counter Snake w/ it (Nades,missles,ariels etc.)
smash64
Smash Champion
yay im not the only one =] but yeah its brawl haha
Yubi
Smash Cadet
I personally love campy playstyle. Is an excellent way to make your opponent fall for mindgames and or baits. People who play a little more aggressive tend to have more problems against matchups at a disadvantage. For example: It's essential campy playing against Snake and Wario. I personally think that as broken as those two characters are, they're very predictable causing them to fall for the bait. Also, since they're "top tiers" players using those characters feel a little too confident fighting against a "low tier" like Ness. Taking that into mind and using it for applying mindgames, gives the more campy, tranquil and relaxed Ness the mental advantage. Besides, owning with Ness feels good 'cause no matter what you do, the simple fact of beating the guts out of a cocky opponent using a low tier, is always and effective troll and feels **** good!!! :-D
P.S. Against Wario, I think he can be punished with a sweetspotted F-smash after a grab release dealing a whooping 25% in one blow and causing early KO's. In case I'm mistaken, please let us all know for the benefit of Ness' performances :-p
P.S. Against Wario, I think he can be punished with a sweetspotted F-smash after a grab release dealing a whooping 25% in one blow and causing early KO's. In case I'm mistaken, please let us all know for the benefit of Ness' performances :-p
milesg2g
Smash Champion
Well yeah I can see your passion for the campy playstyle and the strategic values in it. But I won't go back on my word about original epic fighting games. Before Smash was just trying ot prove that it's a good fighting game w/ nintendo characters. Now it's just based on camping and no fighting period. Just unbelievable and people wonder why the game doesn't have many circuits. =/
Yubi
Smash Cadet
You maybe right though... Brawl is nothing compared to other more strategic and epic fighting games. But I still think is a good game though :-p
thesage
Smash Hero
Brawl is terrible compared to a lot of fighting games.
Yink
The Robo-PSIentist
I am in pretty much total agreement.
Mmm...Mortal Combat and StreetFighter. (but even those games have had some...interesting runs of their own)
Man of Popsicle
Smash Lord
It's all about Katamari vs. mode.
milesg2g
Smash Champion
I agree
The fact that it's this way is cool I just wish it was more balanced.
lol when I first got brawl it was nothing but me trying to L cancel and combo my opponents thinking that the 5 top tiers from melee still stood somewhere on the Tier list.But man was I wrong.
Also Since Brawls so much of a big community people tend to bite off of other peoples styles almost making me quit the game. But Ness had new costumes so i stuck through it
Yubi
Smash Cadet
Any Ness player going to Pound 4??? :-p