PKAY FIAH! ~ Ness MU Discussion [INDEX PAGE + Various Discussions]

[Gaussis]

You're half right but the FLUDD still deals pushback while lagging that atk, making only extremely high-momentum atks able to have a chance to move through it.

I'm pretty sure nair outprioritizes it completely, as in won't get pushed back at all by FLUDD.

Not sure what you mean.

Even if he uses his tools to edgeguard Ness, he has to deal with the possibility of Ness recovering from under the stage. Most likely, Ness will use his DJ from underneath the stage to sweetspot it from there. PSI magnet stalling helps in doing this. From there, he decides whether to use PKT or not. Don't disregard the fact that Ness has a huge enough DJ that it can avoid Mario's edgeguard completely.

A common misconception is that Ness can be easily gimped. True he can be gimped. However, it's by no means an easy task (unless your character has a specific advantage to all of Ness's options). Mario has FLUDD but can only truly gimp PKT. He really has no answers to a DJ because Ness can use an aerial or an airdodge out of his jump. Against Mario, Ness will do most of his recovering with only his DJ and magnet stalling (situational).

FLUDD is for defending Mario's recovery, not enhancing it. Fireballs also work.

True. However, what I am saying is that contrary to what FLUDD does, it won't help you much in defending against PKT if Mario is already too low (which will happen if he is knocked back too far from the stage).

The point is that Mario can be atking you a the same time a fireball is hitting or about to hit you. You can absorb fireballs but you also have to be aware that you can be punished for doing so, even with PSI Magnet Cancel.

Duly noted.

 

[Judge Judy]

I'm pretty sure nair outprioritizes it completely, as in won't get pushed back at all by FLUDD.

Again, you misunderstand how FIHL works; you can out prioritize the FLUDD porjectile itself but it does not negate the pushback nor does it stop the hit lag from occuring. Essentially, forget about how priority works when dealing with the FLUDD, think about momentum. Anyway, try using an Nair against the FLUDD, you'll find that it will stop your atk like a brick wall.

Even if he uses his tools to edgeguard Ness, he has to deal with the possibility of Ness recovering from under the stage. Most likely, Ness will use his DJ from underneath the stage to sweetspot it from there. PSI magnet stalling helps in doing this. From there, he decides whether to use PKT or not. Don't disregard the fact that Ness has a huge enough DJ that it can avoid Mario's edgeguard completely.

Mario can chase opponents trying to recover like that with the downwards cape glide.

A common misconception is that Ness can be easily gimped. True he can be gimped. However, it's by no means an easy task (unless your character has a specific advantage to all of Ness's options). Mario has FLUDD but can only truly gimp PKT. He really has no answers to a DJ because Ness can use an aerial or an airdodge out of his jump. Against Mario, Ness will do most of his recovering with only his DJ and magnet stalling (situational).

True, many people underestimate Ness's recovery but don't underestimate Mario's gimping abilities either; Mario has the tools necessary to gimp Ness but Ness can still put up a good fight.

True. However, what I am saying is that contrary to what FLUDD does, it won't help you much in defending against PKT if Mario is already too low (which will happen if he is knocked back too far from the stage).

I'll give you that, I probally won't be using FLUDD if I'm hit from a very low angle, but I can still use the cape which is reliable.

 

[Gaussis]

Mario can chase opponents trying to recover like that with the downwards cape glide.

^This was the thing I was looking for. I just couldn't see how the cape glide helped at all. How far downward can it go and at what angle?

One last thing: Does FLUDD push back when fully charged, or does it only need a partial charge?

 

[Judge Judy]

^This was the thing I was looking for. I just couldn't see how the cape glide helped at all. How far downward can it go and at what angle?

The downwards cape glide goes down at a steep vertical angle at the same speed as a normal cape glide but the distance is slightly less, if the distance was any more, Mario would SD.

One last thing: Does FLUDD push back when fully charged, or does it only need a partial charge?

It doesn't need a charge for FIHL, but a charged FLUDD is good for better pushback in general.

 

[iMichael]

lol at Ness

 

[PKNintendo]

lol at Ness

lmao at Mario.

Thats at envy.

Mario mains, 6-4 is not possible to be honest. Look at the other matchups, when is Mario EVER going to be as hard as TL Sheik or Wario? (who all respectively have stuff on Ness. Sheik tilt lock, Wario is hell, and TL is also hell)

Im not going to post anything until the end.

Edit: Aw screw it. Anyway only ONE PERSON got the Paper Mario reference? And you call yourself Mario mains?

Anyway, Fludd is WAY to overrated. Gimping is only 5% of the matchup, not 100%. Unless Mario has a CG or some crazy wacky crap, I doubt he'll get past the even mark.

At Matt, I like your suggestion but you assumed Ness was light. Ness is mid weight (like Mario)

At Judy, give it a rest with fludd. It's WAY to overrated.

At Kanzaki, the difference between a Ness who CAN use his recovery effectively, and one who can't is quite large. I mean, if a nooby Mario main comes in and uses his double jump, and up. He's going to get gimped. You need to use the cape e.c.t.
Same with Ness.

Oh and another thing Mario mains. NESS' FAIR IS WAYYYYYYYYYYYY to overrated. It's not that great actually. And judy (again) Ness can SH all of his aerials too.

IMO, Ness has better aerials then Mario.

@ Gaussis. It pushes back regardless, the charge determines it's charge. Seriously NONE OF YOU (Ness mains and Mario mains) have fully used both characters.

Give me a sec, I'll write up a summary soon.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Mario is better at "comboing" and better at edgeguarding, and only loses slightly in terms of KO options in this matchup.

So yeah, advantage 6/4 or 65/35 to Mario.

More details:
Mario's aerials string together better, and he gets better setups from throws. Edgeguarding Ness is deceptively easy considering that PK Thunder sucks as a recovery move. Cape him away once, he's forced to use it. Then FLUDD him while he's using it, he dies.

Ness wins in scoring KOs though, thanks to his insane grab attack and B-throw. His U-air kills at OK percents too. Still, Mario kills at respectable percents with an undiminished U-smash.

 

[PKNintendo]

Mario is better at "comboing" and better at edgeguarding, and only loses slightly in terms of KO options in this matchup.

So yeah, advantage 6/4 or 65/35 to Mario.

More details:
Mario's aerials string together better, and he gets better setups from throws. Edgeguarding Ness is deceptively easy considering that PK Thunder sucks as a recovery move. Cape him away once, he's forced to use it. Then FLUDD him while he's using it, he dies.

Ness wins in scoring KOs though, thanks to his insane grab attack and B-throw. His U-air kills at OK percents too. Still, Mario kills at respectable percents with an undiminished U-smash.

You are a funny one. When is Mario EVER going to 65-35 someone? Seriously WHEN? I mean come on! DK is WAY harder to face, his has a grab release cargo- downsmash and he has a partial CG, he's heavier e.c.t. BUT THAT MATCHUP IS EVEN (45-55 for DK)

Time for the summary.

Mario and Ness are clearly aerial based fighters. They both have poor ground range, e.c.t. When it comes to approaching using solely[/g] ground moves. Mario would NORMALLY win, however, Psi magnet stops the fireball approach.

If you absorb a fireball, you can immediately shield, or attack out of it at unnaturally speeds. The reason why Ness wins the approach game here is because of PK jumped PKF. It can be caped normally, but if you PK jump it, it's harder to cape it. Unless the red guy is psychic, it can be pretty darn hard.

Okay. In the aerial approach I think Mario wins. Mario usually outranges Ness here.
In terms of aerials themselves I think their both good. Yet I think Ness wins out. His aerials (when compared to Mario) to more damage, and kill earlier.

Ness fair is leagues better than Mario's fair. It does more damage, and it can be comboed into another one. Mario's fair is terrible. It has the start-up, and is actually quite weak.

Ness bair is better at killing and does more damage, but I think Mario's is better simply because of it's comboability/spammibility.

Ness' nair is better than Mario. It does more damage, and it can actually KO (albeit at higher %) It spaces better. And to be honest, the only use Mario's nair has is to combo with it, since it's power is weak and needs to be sweetspotted for decent damage.

Dair wise, Ness is a powerful spike. It's the strongest in the game (at 0%, at higher % G-dorf's is stronger e.c.t) If Mario gets hit by it, bye, bye Mario. Mario's dair is also useful, it has good aerial priority (aerials don't really have priority but you know what I mean...) Ness cna be used to approach, and end an aerial combo, while Mario's is a good approach.

Ness uair is a powerful killer, while Mario's a crazy comboer. I think they're equal. (Mario being slightly better)

Ness overall is much stronger in the air. He has 3 aerial killers, as opposed to Mario who has none. (fair is a joke. Please) I suppose you can say he has 1, but seriously come on.

Going back to the ground, I think Ness actually has a better ground game than Mario. (finally SOMEONE)

See, tilt wise, Mario doesn't actually have good tilts. Mario has the mighty uptilt to juggle, but Ness is small, and floaty so he can't be juggled that well.

Ness ftilt has less range, but more speed, power and priority.
Ness down tilt can be spammed, do massive damage e.c.t Mario's down tilt is actually quite terrible. It does 6% at a slow rate, cannot trip e.c.t.
AAA combo's are the same. Right up to the damage and knockback. (Ness is slightly faster)

Smash wise, Mario wins out.
Mario's and Ness smashes(ignoring the fmash) are weak. Yes they CAN be used to set up e.c.t They're nonetheless weak.
EX:
Mario's Upsmash will kill Ness at around 121% fresh, and close to 140% when staled.
Ness upsmash kills Mario fresh at 135%. And around 150% unstaled.
Mario upsmash can be used out of shield, and is hard to punish. It's damage is average.

Ness' upsmash is weak, yet it can be used as a defensive tool. (OOS too)It's base damage is 17%, and it doesn't get stronger as you charge it. It's just a defensive tool.
It spaces well.
Ness upsmash cannot kill Mario at any reasonable percentage, but it's a good defensive tool nonetheless. I say Ness.

Mario's downsmash does decent damage. It's average at spacing I suppose.
Ness downsmash also doesn't increase when charged. It's base damage is high, and is great for roll spammers. It's not perfect though. I give this one too Mario.

Ness' fsmash is incredibly underrated. A slow move, it's range is huge and it's damage is high (25%) I originally thought this move was garbage. But it's a great spacer. Randomly throwing it out is good too. Mario fsmash still wins though, angled Up and stutterstepped it's just ****.

Both have decent running attack. Ness pops them up into the air and does good damage, and Mario's also good.

Ness grabs destroy Mario's grabs. His grab game period is better. Ness dash grab is fast, decent range and annoying. His throws do massive damage (weakest being downthrow) his pummel is good if you have rhythm, and his backthrow can KILL quite early. Mario's throws are weak, his grab range is terrible (even his dashgrab sucks)
Seriously don't try to outgrab Ness.

B move wise, I think Ness wins out.

Using PK Flash on Mario trying to recover is easy to do it's predictability. Mario's fireballs get taken out from the psi magnet. (lag cancel the psi magnet) Mario's Up B out of shield is amazing. And don't even bother getting Mario with PKT on the ground.
Fludd is solely used for gimping, its useless on the ground. While the cape will reflect regular PKF, REMEMBER TO PK JUMP!

Now recovery is huge. Mario mains INSIST Thats it's incredibly easy to gimp Ness. It's easier than average, but it doesn't affect the matchup alot. It's quite overrated and is getting annoying after hearing gimping recovery spam's! Mario's will get bitten if they try to gimp the start-up of PKT2. (It's only getting gimped at the end) Ness double jump is good. USE IT! Seriously, it's horizontal distance ALMOST beat's out Mario's recovery, and Ness vertical recovery is also better. I have no trouble properly recovering with psi magnet>double jump>PKT2.

Mario mains, you have to realise that their a worse things that can happen to Ness. Grab releases, Chaingrabs, INFINITES. Mario has NONE of those. And until he does, this matchup is exactly even. 5-5.

 

[Kanzaki]

How are you going to compare moves by moves, such as Ness' fair with Mario's fair and so forth? If I see you use a fair, I'm not gonna go head on against you with my own fair.

The match up is at least 6-4, 5.5-4.5 if I wanna be nice. Mario's whole game is based off edge guarding, which Ness' recovery is horrible at. Mario has combos that leads to edge guarding, and Ness is too easy to combo, and unlike Lucas, Ness can be caped during his PKT2.

 

[PKNintendo]

How are you going to compare moves by moves, such as Ness' fair with Mario's fair and so forth? If I see you use a fair, I'm not gonna go head on against you with my own fair.

The match up is at least 6-4, 5.5-4.5 if I wanna be nice. Mario's whole game is based off edge guarding, which Ness' recovery is horrible at. Mario has combos that leads to edge guarding, and Ness is too easy to combo, and unlike Lucas, Ness can be caped during his PKT2.

No.
Besides going head on, Ness aerials are just better.

If Mario's game is based on edge guarding than that's ******* pathetic especially considering how easy it is to avoid gimping Ness. Simna inbn Sind once played a Mario mained who attempted to gimp him 24/7. It was effective at first, but slowly loosed it's wear.

Recovery's can't actually sway a matchup by alot. And seriously 6-4 is not possible for Mario. (as for Ness) They just can't. Since if they did, Mario would loose alot of matchups since his recovery is also (bad) and he get;s gimped.

5-5.

And you guys have Lucas as a 6-4 disadvantage XD lol.

 

[PKNintendo]

Here's ladder matches on AllIsBrawl, my Mario vs Vicegrip and Zage:

vs ViceGrip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiBgFhNc3P0

vs Zage:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwK9Xze49xM

Ness is too easy to gimp, Mario's fireball can gimp Ness' recovery in more ways than one, my advice for Ness mainers, stay in the middle of the stage, and CP Delfino ><

Vice grip trying to recover on that first match was ****ing pathetic. He could air dodge, psi magnet e.c.t.

And the second match was you being better than him period.
And how is Ness easier to combo than Lucas? Body wise, they're the same thing.
Methinks your overrating Mario and undermining Ness.

 

[Kanzaki]

The Simna reference, was it Brawl? Don't get me wrong, I <3 Melee, and I prefer it over Brawl, but Brawl has different physics, such as Mario's cape can give you a lil push, pushing Ness out of his PKT.

The way I see Mario's gimping methods, it's either gimp them, or be gimped, that's where the characters and skills come out. Only way Ness can really gimp Mario is through his dair, Mario, how ever, has many options against Ness.

About recovery, sure you say do this and that, but during an actual match, it's hard to think bout it, especially if there's an aggressive player pressuring you. I'm not aggressive at all, but I try to keep my pressure up.

I never said Ness is easier to combo than Lucas, they're both easy to combo, only time I mentioned Lucas is that his PKT2 goes through Mario's cape.

PKNintendo, we've been over this in the Mario forums, me, along with a few other Mario mains, have tournament experiences and what not, WITH proof, we know what we're talking about through experience, you on the other hand, just talks too much :[ Unless you can prove you know what you're saying through your own personal experience, shhh ^^

 

[PKNintendo]

The Simna reference, was it Brawl? Don't get me wrong, I <3 Melee, and I prefer it over Brawl, but Brawl has different physics, such as Mario's cape can give you a lil push, pushing Ness out of his PKT.

The way I see Mario's gimping methods, it's either gimp them, or be gimped, that's where the characters and skills come out. Only way Ness can really gimp Mario is through his dair, Mario, how ever, has many options against Ness.

About recovery, sure you say do this and that, but during an actual match, it's hard to think bout it, especially if there's an aggressive player pressuring you. I'm not aggressive at all, but I try to keep my pressure up.

I never said Ness is easier to combo than Lucas, they're both easy to combo, only time I mentioned Lucas is that his PKT2 goes through Mario's cape.

PKNintendo, we've been over this in the Mario forums, me, along with a few other Mario mains, have tournament experiences and what not, WITH proof, we know what we're talking about through experience, you on the other hand, just talks too much :[ Unless you can prove you know what you're saying through your own personal experience, shhh ^^

Simna reference was Brawl.

Either gimped or be gimped? What about the battle on the ground? The way I see it is. Once the battle is done (the most important part) the ending is the gimping. Yes Mario wins there but not by much. I don't doubt your skill, your good by Kaze was a terrible Ness. I play defense, so I can deal with pressure easily.

The match up is at least 6-4, 5.5-4.5 if I wanna be nice. Mario's whole game is based off edge guarding, which Ness' recovery is horrible at. Mario has combos that leads to edge guarding, and Ness is too easy to combo, and unlike Lucas, Ness can be caped during his PKT2.

You DID say he was easy to combo. Stop comparing Ness to Lucas PLEASE!!! Did I ONCE say anything about Luigi? Did I say ''unlike Mario Luigi can...'' Did I say that? Mario is easy to combo too. So what? There are very little combo's in brawl anyway. If a player wanted to, they could escape all of Mario combo's (ness too)

We've been over what now? I only listen to a very little amount of Mario mains. You, Matt, Matador, and heromystic. The rest are nothing to me. (boss is good, but his post's suck)
I've been to tourney's too. I LOVE friendlies, and to be honest, im not that competitive.

I too once thought that Ness<<<Mario, but I learned an adapted. Ness can properly get back on the ledge. Recovering in Brawl is too easy.
One thing I notice about you Mario mains is that you ALWAYS go back to gimping. When I discussed the battle, you didn't refute any of my point. You didn't talk about reasoning on Mario's smashes being better than Ness' or his aerials being worse... It's gimping, gimping, gimping.

Mario is not all gimping ,he has more to him you know.

Again going back to the end of that first match vs Ness. Vicegrip was great until he recovered. He just walked into fludd. **** pathetic if you ask me.

 

[Uffe]

I'm still saying 50:50 on this one. Because Mario isn't that hard to fight. Annoying, but not hard. Same can be said about Ness for you Mario mains. The thing is is that like PKNintendo pointed out, Wario, Sheik and Toon Link give us a much harder time than Mario ever will. If Mario can't pressure me the way those three do, then yeah, I just don't see this being 60:40 or even 55:45.

 

[GwJ]

love the paper mario title reference.

Glad I'm not the only one to catch that.

 

[PKNintendo]

I'm still saying 50:50 on this one. Because Mario isn't that hard to fight. Annoying, but not hard. Same can be said about Ness for you Mario mains. The thing is is that like PKNintendo pointed out, Wario, Sheik and Toon Link give us a much harder time than Mario ever will. If Mario can't pressure me the way those three do, then yeah, I just don't see this being 60:40 or even 55:45.

That. And where are the Mario mains, I've typed up several arguments, and none of them have been rebuked!

I need more Mario mains!

 

[Judge Judy]

Mario mains, 6-4 is not possible to be honest. Look at the other matchups, when is Mario EVER going to be as hard as TL Sheik or Wario? (who all respectively have stuff on Ness. Sheik tilt lock, Wario is hell, and TL is also hell)

As far as Sheik, Mario also has his Utilt lock and his aerials juggle much better than Sheik's.

Anyway, Fludd is WAY to overrated. Gimping is only 5% of the matchup, not 100%. Unless Mario has a CG or some crazy wacky crap, I doubt he'll get past the even mark.

At Judy, give it a rest with fludd. It's WAY to overrated.

FLUDD is actually pretty underrated, I'm just telling you how it is and how it can be used.

Oh and another thing Mario mains. NESS' FAIR IS WAYYYYYYYYYYYY to overrated. It's not that great actually. And judy (again) Ness can SH all of his aerials too.

Ok, but I'm not sure why that would matter.

IMO, Ness has better aerials then Mario.

Meh, Ness has some better KO power and his atks are disjointed but this is like comparing apples to oranges; Mario's aerials are quick and chain together, Ness's aerials are disjointed and have power.

 

[PKNintendo]

As far as Sheik, Mario also has his Utilt lock and his aerials juggle much better than Sheik's.





FLUDD is actually pretty underrated, I'm just telling you how it is and how it can be used.




Ok, but I'm not sure why that would matter.



Meh, Ness has some better KO power and his atks are disjointed but this is like comparing apples to oranges; Mario's aerials are quick and chain together, Ness's aerials are disjointed and have power.

Sigh you show your lack of character knowledge again. Sheik's tilt lock does massive damage on Ness. Mario's can be escaped after the second punch.

No, Fludd is overrated by you. I know how it can be used (and avoided)
And come on, Ness aerials string just as well as Mario.

Fair to Fair
Fair to Nair
Nair to Uair
Dair to footstool to fair

Ness has just as much comboability (if comboes existed in Brawl lol) as Mario. Ness is just an overall better aerial fighter.

 

[Judge Judy]

You are a funny one. When is Mario EVER going to 65-35 someone? Seriously WHEN? I mean come on! DK is WAY harder to face, his has a grab release cargo- downsmash and he has a partial CG, he's heavier e.c.t. BUT THAT MATCHUP IS EVEN (45-55 for DK)

I don't think Mario has a 65:35 advantage on Ness since that would mean Mario ***** Ness as badly as Ganondorf which simply isn't true, but 60:40/55:45 sounds about right.

Mario and Ness are clearly aerial based fighters. They both have poor ground range, e.c.t. When it comes to approaching using solely[/g] ground moves. Mario would NORMALLY win, however, Psi magnet stops the fireball approach.

PSI Magnet softens and restricts Mario's fireball approach but it doesn't completely neutralize it because of how Mario can follow up with them.

If you absorb a fireball, you can immediately shield, or attack out of it at unnaturally speeds. The reason why Ness wins the approach game here is because of PK jumped PKF. It can be caped normally, but if you PK jump it, it's harder to cape it. Unless the red guy is psychic, it can be pretty darn hard.

FLUDD stops PK Fire as well and PK Fire isn't all that fast, Mario can easily cape it.

Okay. In the aerial approach I think Mario wins. Mario usually outranges Ness here.
In terms of aerials themselves I think their both good. Yet I think Ness wins out. His aerials (when compared to Mario) to more damage, and kill earlier.

Meh, explained this already.

Ness fair is leagues better than Mario's fair. It does more damage, and it can be comboed into another one. Mario's fair is terrible. It has the start-up, and is actually quite weak.

Mario would never approach with his Fair, why would you even compare them, they're completely different moves.

Ness bair is better at killing and does more damage, but I think Mario's is better simply because of it's comboability/spammibility.

Yah, pretty much.

Ness' nair is better than Mario. It does more damage, and it can actually KO (albeit at higher %) It spaces better. And to be honest, the only use Mario's nair has is to combo with it, since it's power is weak and needs to be sweetspotted for decent damage.

Mario's Nair doesn't have good KO power but it has very good priority, about the same priority as Luigi's Nair.

Dair wise, Ness is a powerful spike. It's the strongest in the game (at 0%, at higher % G-dorf's is stronger e.c.t) If Mario gets hit by it, bye, bye Mario. Mario's dair is also useful, it has good aerial priority (aerials don't really have priority but you know what I mean...) Ness cna be used to approach, and end an aerial combo, while Mario's is a good approach.

Again, this is a terrible, faulty way to compare movesets.

Ness uair is a powerful killer, while Mario's a crazy comboer. I think they're equal. (Mario being slightly better)

It doesn't make sense to compare aerials like this.

Ness overall is much stronger in the air. He has 3 aerial killers, as opposed to Mario who has none. (fair is a joke. Please) I suppose you can say he has 1, but seriously come on.

Ness has more power in his aerials but that doesn't mean his air game is more powerful, it's like saying Ike is more powerful that Wario in the air because Ike's aerials kill quicker.

Going back to the ground, I think Ness actually has a better ground game than Mario. (finally SOMEONE)

See, tilt wise, Mario doesn't actually have good tilts. Mario has the mighty uptilt to juggle, but Ness is small, and floaty so he can't be juggled that well.

Mario's Utilt lock is still like a free 20 dmg.

Ness ftilt has less range, but more speed, power and priority.
Ness down tilt can be spammed, do massive damage e.c.t Mario's down tilt is actually quite terrible. It does 6% at a slow rate, cannot trip e.c.t.
AAA combo's are the same. Right up to the damage and knockback. (Ness is slightly faster)

1. Mario's Ftilt has more priority and has IASA frames

2. Yah, everyone knows that Mario's Dtilt is terrible

3. That only thing faster about Ness's AAA combo is the last hit

Smash wise, Mario wins out.
Mario's and Ness smashes(ignoring the fmash) are weak. Yes they CAN be used to set up e.c.t They're nonetheless weak.
EX:
Mario's Upsmash will kill Ness at around 121% fresh, and close to 140% when staled.
Ness upsmash kills Mario fresh at 135%. And around 150% unstaled.
Mario upsmash can be used out of shield, and is hard to punish. It's damage is average.


Ness' upsmash is weak, yet it can be used as a defensive tool. (OOS too)It's base damage is 17%, and it doesn't get stronger as you charge it. It's just a defensive tool.
It spaces well.
Ness upsmash cannot kill Mario at any reasonable percentage, but it's a good defensive tool nonetheless. I say Ness.

I'd agree, Mario's Usmash is only really used a finisher.

Mario's downsmash does decent damage. It's average at spacing I suppose.
Ness downsmash also doesn't increase when charged. It's base damage is high, and is great for roll spammers. It's not perfect though. I give this one too Mario.

True.

Ness' fsmash is incredibly underrated. A slow move, it's range is huge and it's damage is high (25%) I originally thought this move was garbage. But it's a great spacer. Randomly throwing it out is good too. Mario fsmash still wins though, angled Up and stutterstepped it's just ****.

True, but I will say that the bat's reflector ability is a nice touch.

Both have decent running attack. Ness pops them up into the air and does good damage, and Mario's also good.

I'd still say Ness's is better since Mario's dash atk is just so easily punished even with its IASA frames at the end.

Ness grabs destroy Mario's grabs. His grab game period is better. Ness dash grab is fast, decent range and annoying. His throws do massive damage (weakest being downthrow) his pummel is good if you have rhythm, and his backthrow can KILL quite early. Mario's throws are weak, his grab range is terrible (even his dashgrab sucks)
Seriously don't try to outgrab Ness.

Ness clearly has a better grab game than Mario but I will add that Mario's shield-canceled dash shield grab pretty much mimics Ness's dash grab.

B move wise, I think Ness wins out.

Using PK Flash on Mario trying to recover is easy to do it's predictability. Mario's fireballs get taken out from the psi magnet. (lag cancel the psi magnet) Mario's Up B out of shield is amazing. And don't even bother getting Mario with PKT on the ground.
Fludd is solely used for gimping, its useless on the ground. While the cape will reflect regular PKF, REMEMBER TO PK JUMP!

Mario can cape PK Flash and FLUDD is very useful on the ground due to FIHL.

Now recovery is huge. Mario mains INSIST Thats it's incredibly easy to gimp Ness. It's easier than average, but it doesn't affect the matchup alot. It's quite overrated and is getting annoying after hearing gimping recovery spam's! Mario's will get bitten if they try to gimp the start-up of PKT2. (It's only getting gimped at the end) Ness double jump is good. USE IT! Seriously, it's horizontal distance ALMOST beat's out Mario's recovery, and Ness vertical recovery is also better. I have no trouble properly recovering with psi magnet>double jump>PKT2.

Meh, both their recoveries are predictable it's just that Mario has better gimping tools against Ness than Ness has against Mario.

Mario mains, you have to realise that their a worse things that can happen to Ness. Grab releases, Chaingrabs, INFINITES. Mario has NONE of those. And until he does, this matchup is exactly even. 5-5.

Faulty logic, but I'd still say the match-up is about 60:40/55:45 Mario's favor.

 

[Judge Judy]

Sigh you show your lack of character knowledge again. Sheik's tilt lock does massive damage on Ness. Mario's can be escaped after the second punch.

No, Fludd is overrated by you. I know how it can be used (and avoided)
And come on, Ness aerials string just as well as Mario.

Fair to Fair
Fair to Nair
Nair to Uair
Dair to footstool to fair

Ness has just as much comboability (if comboes existed in Brawl lol) as Mario. Ness is just an overall better aerial fighter.

Ness doesn't have nearly as many aerials strings as Mario; that big list of all of the aerial combinations Mario can do in one SH also work as strings. Additionally, Mario has some true combos he can do into his Up B.

Edit: Double post

 

[Matador]

Christ, this is just like last time...

How about this. How about instead of declaring one character superior in one area over the other or saying "Ness doesn't have..." or "Mario can't...", we focus on the facts because PKNintendo got it right; neither party knows very much about the other. Let's take a change of direction and look at What attacks outprioritize what, what true combos one has over the other, and their options. This kind of discussion isn't going anywhere.

My take on the matchup in a sec. I'm sure BO X7 has a few things to say about it as well.

Edit: When we first looked at the matchup a few months ago, I said 70:30 Mario hands down. I realize that was kinda on the ******** side, but I DO believe that Mario has a slight advantage in the matchup. Let me explain why, and correct me if I'm wrong...

I give Ness the advantage in the air and Mario the advantage on the ground. From what I've seen, Ness' aerials have more range and he's a bit faster in the air because of his crazy DJ. The only aerial Mario has that can compete with Ness' aerials is Bair which is beaten by Ness' Fair if I'm not mistaken. That, and the fact that Ness' aerials flow nicely into each other gives him the edge, even slightly.

It's mostly the opposite on the ground. Mario has the speed with is smashes, mainly Dsmash and Usmash, and range with his tilts. If you want to count SH aerials, Mario's ability to SH 2 aerials into one hop makes his Bair a good spacing tool and Uairs good for comboing into each other. Ness' SH Fair limits this, but it's still a viable spacing option.

KOing, I'll probably call that even, mainly because of Ness' Bthrow. Aside from that, the only KO move I've ever really been worried about is his Bair or tippered Fsmash. That's also factoring the chance that he'll land a PKT2. Mario's options here are Fsmash, Usmash, and Dsmash unstaled and sweetspotted. Since Ness is apparently the same weight as Mario, Fsmash should be KOing at 100%-110% from the edge and Usmash at around 132%. IIRC, Ness' Bthrow kills at 120% regardless of DI.

Mario also has, yeah you called it, gimp options. As much as we'd like to ignore it, a large portion of Mario's kills come from gimps on every opponent. Ness' recovery being one of the few that he can more reliably gimp, you have to factor it into the match.

Where I have Mario with the advantage is approach options. Mario can approach Ness safer than Ness can approach Mario. Mario's approach options here are spaced Bairs, SH Dairs, and fireball approaches. Since Ness' Fair goes through mostly everything Mario has, this should be his main approach option, correct? Well, Mario has a pretty strong defensive game with his upB and Usmash OOS which can punish all of Ness' aerials as he comes close to the shield.

My overview, 55:45 Mario.

 

[ColinJF]

Honestly I think Ness has advantage over Mario just because he's a way better character, and all Mario has going for him is a gimmicky edge guard game that is rarely going to gimp Ness if he recovers competently. I don't see how Mario's "aerial strings" compare to Ness's, Mario's projectile is okay but pretty easy to (power)shield (I wouldn't bother with psi magnet). Putting it as neutral would be fine as well though.

 

[BoTastic!]

My take on the matchup in a sec. I'm sure BO X7 has a few things to say about it as well.

You bet i do.

he's a way better character

lol no.

Ness is just an overall better aerial fighter.

I'd say they are equal. I really doubt he's better in the air.

you are a funny one. When is Mario EVER going to 65-35 someone? Seriously WHEN?

Lol when you look at the rob boards and see that Mario is one of Rob's worst match ups. Do your homework. Mario isn't as bad as you think. (and Ness is on the same boat as he is)


Anyone that says Mario has a 65:35 adv on Ness is absurd. Ness isn't hard.. But he also isn't really easy either. 50:50 or 55:45 Mario for me.

 

[SkylerOcon]

Honestly I think Ness has advantage over Mario just because he's a way better character, and all Mario has going for him is a gimmicky edge guard game that is rarely going to gimp Ness if he recovers competently. I don't see how Mario's "aerial strings" compare to Ness's, Mario's projectile is okay but pretty easy to (power)shield (I wouldn't bother with psi magnet). Putting it as neutral would be fine as well though.

Mario's edgeguarding game is gimmicky. Stick waggling Wii games are gimmicks. Having to practice cape and FLUDD timing isn't. Mario's aerials string together quite nicely, and he can pretty much Dthrow uair uair dthrow uair uair any character at 30-40 percent which is nice. A Ness being stuck in freefall is extremely easy to cape. I just have to jump down there and hit your PK thunder a few times.

Ness has good aerials, yes. Mario also has good aerials. Ness' are more KO potential, while Mario's are more for racking up damage and knocking the opponent off the stage. The thing is that, most of Ness' damage moves are easily caped or avoided. If a Ness plays smart, he can rack up some damage, put when Ness gets off the ledge when facing a Mario, there's no return for him.

Mario's projectile is meant as an approach method, and powershielding it only makes you have to shield and gives us more time to run in and dthrow. Psi magnet is a horrible idea against fireballs, because that 6 or so percent that you recover soon turns into 20% damage that you take from Dthrows and SH Uairs.

Ness is a good character, and he does have some things over Mario (much better killing power, decent projectiles, Psi Magnet will help if the Mario uses fireballs badly), but Mario wins in this matchup because of how easily Ness is gimped, and that Ness takes a beating badly from the cape.

I'd put this matchup between 55:45 and 60:40 in Mario's favor.

 

[ColinJF]

Mario's projectile is meant as an approach method, and powershielding it only makes you have to shield and gives us more time to run in and dthrow.

What? When you powershield a projectile there isn't a single frame where you are shielding.

Ness is rarely gimped by Mario by the way.

 

[PKNintendo]

Thanks Mario mains. I agree with most of your points.
@ judy how the **** do you cape Ness Pk flash properly? It's not worth it lol. Otacon, you forgot about Ness psi magnet lag cancel. You can do a smash or shield, spot dodge out of it INCREDIBLY fast.

@ otacon, thats not a combo (tested it) simply because of the lack of hitstun.

 

[Matador]

SkylerOcon's post

*Sigh*

You're assuming too much dude. Ness' psi magnet doesn't have lag when you cancel it and Ness offstage isn't ALWAYS a gimp. It's the same as when the Marth boards (or inevitably the MK boards) claim that they can edgeguard Mario sooooo easily when we know for a fact that they can't. It's possible, but not guaranteed.

Edit @ PKNintendo: You can cape the PKflash as it comes out, sort of like how you can cape Zelda's Dins as it explodes. If she's too close, it actually damages her. Also, if you try it onstage (same with PKT), Fludd can push you off and put you in an instant freefall state, so use sparingly.

 

[Kanzaki]

Ness is rarely gimped by Mario..? Every tourney I've been to, and had to face a Ness, I gimped them atleast once. Offline tourney's, against some of SoCal's bests.

On the stage, Mario and Ness are bout even, off the stage, Mario > Ness, hands down.

 

[Matador]

Ness is rarely gimped by Mario by the way.

Because of his stall, DJ and airdodge...right, right.

This helps. That's all. It just helps him recover a little safer, but it doesn't alleviate the problem. The fact of the matter is, if you're forced to use your upB during your recovery, be it above or below the stage, there's a pretty good chance you won't make it back because every Mario knows how important a charged Fludd is in this match.

And don't give me "He'll rarely need to use it though!" because we won't be sitting there sucking our thumbs while Ness is dancing around offstage. We'll be fireballing and throwing out aerials trying to force that upB out of you.

 

[BoTastic!]

@ judy how the **** do you cape Ness Pk flash properly? It's not worth it lol

It's possible. The cape lasts for a bit. Even if you miss, you'll still cape. Ive done many times.

 

[PKNintendo]

Christ, this is just like last time...

How about this. How about instead of declaring one character superior in one area over the other or saying "Ness doesn't have..." or "Mario can't...", we focus on the facts because PKNintendo got it right; neither party knows very much about the other. Let's take a change of direction and look at What attacks outprioritize what, what true combos one has over the other, and their options. This kind of discussion isn't going anywhere.

My take on the matchup in a sec. I'm sure BO X7 has a few things to say about it as well.

Edit: When we first looked at the matchup a few months ago, I said 70:30 Mario hands down. I realize that was kinda on the ******** side, but I DO believe that Mario has a slight advantage in the matchup. Let me explain why, and correct me if I'm wrong...

I give Ness the advantage in the air and Mario the advantage on the ground. From what I've seen, Ness' aerials have more range and he's a bit faster in the air because of his crazy DJ. The only aerial Mario has that can compete with Ness' aerials is Bair which is beaten by Ness' Fair if I'm not mistaken. That, and the fact that Ness' aerials flow nicely into each other gives him the edge, even slightly.

It's mostly the opposite on the ground. Mario has the speed with is smashes, mainly Dsmash and Usmash, and range with his tilts. If you want to count SH aerials, Mario's ability to SH 2 aerials into one hop makes his Bair a good spacing tool and Uairs good for comboing into each other. Ness' SH Fair limits this, but it's still a viable spacing option.

KOing, I'll probably call that even, mainly because of Ness' Bthrow. Aside from that, the only KO move I've ever really been worried about is his Bair or tippered Fsmash. That's also factoring the chance that he'll land a PKT2. Mario's options here are Fsmash, Usmash, and Dsmash unstaled and sweetspotted. Since Ness is apparently the same weight as Mario, Fsmash should be KOing at 100%-110% from the edge and Usmash at around 132%. IIRC, Ness' Bthrow kills at 120% regardless of DI.

Mario also has, yeah you called it, gimp options. As much as we'd like to ignore it, a large portion of Mario's kills come from gimps on every opponent. Ness' recovery being one of the few that he can more reliably gimp, you have to factor it into the match.

Where I have Mario with the advantage is approach options. Mario can approach Ness safer than Ness can approach Mario. Mario's approach options here are spaced Bairs, SH Dairs, and fireball approaches. Since Ness' Fair goes through mostly everything Mario has, this should be his main approach option, correct? Well, Mario has a pretty strong defensive game with his upB and Usmash OOS which can punish all of Ness' aerials as he comes close to the shield.

My overview, 55:45 Mario.

Sorry for double post but. Yeah I agree with most of this, and Im glad that you changed from 7-3 to 55-45. I disagree with ground game, while Mario has the better ground game, it's not by much. I suppose Mario's tilts do outrange Ness but...

Ness' do more damage (down tilt especially) and are generally faster. Judy, Mario isn't the only player who can use his utilt spam. Ness can too! His uptilt functions the same, with less spam but more range/priority. His ftilt does more damage and it's priority is insane. And Ness downtilt is just plain better than Mario's downtilt.
Tilt wise, I think Ness wins out.

Ness can SH 2 aerials into one Hop too you know. 2 bairs, (like Mario) 2 fairs (unlike Mario) 2 uairs, 2 nairs. In fact ALL of Ness aerials can be SH except his dair.

I disagree with even KO. The sheer power of Ness backthrow makes him a better killer. FINALLY someone realises that Ness has equal weight to Mario () But yeah, he also has his bair (strong) PK flash, PKT2, and Fsmash. It's better but not by much.

Ness can limit his approach via psi magnet cancel (said before) and counter Mario's SH aerials with his. A defensive Ness is just as (if not more) as deadly as Mario. Again, what Mario can do, Ness can do too. Upsmash OOS is also possible with him.

Yes Mario's edge guarding plays a big role, but his recovery is much to underrated. It takes alot of flack. And no offense Mario mains, Mario just isn't as tough to face as Peach, DK and Rob (who are 55-45)
(Yes, Ness AND Mario aren't that great)

It's definetely a 50-50.

EDIT: Oh it isn't a double post.


And @ Kanzaki. Tiny summary
In the air on stage= Ness>Mario
On the ground=Mario>Ness
Far away=Ness>Mario
Off the stage Ness=Mario.
Approaching=Mario>Ness
Killing=Ness>Mario

OH SHI... Anyway, yeah Ness get's gimped, but Ness can do things to Mario too you know. PK flash, PKT juggle, PKT2. Yes, I face the dreaded cape, and get ***** by it, but not by THAT much. I think Mario can gimp G-dorf, DK, and Link farse worse by the fact that Ness has such a splendid double jump.


@ Matador, I love how you know alot more about Ness. Kudos to you!

 

[Kanzaki]

Sorry for double post but. Yeah I agree with most of this, and Im glad that you changed from 7-3 to 55-45. I disagree with ground game, while Mario has the better ground game, it's not by much. I suppose Mario's tilts do outrange Ness but...

Ness' do more damage (down tilt especially) and are generally faster. Judy, Mario isn't the only player who can use his utilt spam. Ness can too! His uptilt functions the same, with less spam but more range/priority. His ftilt does more damage and it's priority is insane. And Ness downtilt is just plain better than Mario's downtilt.
Tilt wise, I think Ness wins out.

Ness can SH 2 aerials into one Hop too you know. 2 bairs, (like Mario) 2 fairs (unlike Mario) 2 uairs, 2 nairs. In fact ALL of Ness aerials can be SH except his dair.

I disagree with even KO. The sheer power of Ness backthrow makes him a better killer. FINALLY someone realises that Ness has equal weight to Mario () But yeah, he also has his bair (strong) PK flash, PKT2, and Fsmash. It's better but not by much.

Ness can limit his approach via psi magnet cancel (said before) and counter Mario's SH aerials with his. A defensive Ness is just as (if not more) as deadly as Mario. Again, what Mario can do, Ness can do too. Upsmash OOS is also possible with him.

Yes Mario's edge guarding plays a big role, but his recovery is much to underrated. It takes alot of flack. And no offense Mario mains, Mario just isn't as tough to face as Peach, DK and Rob (who are 55-45)
(Yes, Ness AND Mario aren't that great)

It's definetely a 50-50.

I stopped reading at "Mario's dtilt".

But real talk, Ness has a sexy dtilt, but like you said, Mario's utilt is spammable, thus being combo-able. Ness' uptilt knocks them into the air, and that's it, your opponent can recovery after that... I don't know bout Ness' utilt range, but for Mario, I've hit an opponent hanging on the ledge before with an utilt. Mario's utilt also goes through Ness' dtilt from what I can tell from experience as well.

No Mario should be getting hit with a PK Flash, it's too predictable and too easy to cape :[

Mario isn't that great of a character, true, but he DOES have potential as said by the SBR.

 

[BoTastic!]

Yes Mario's edge guarding plays a big role, but his recovery is much to underrated. It takes alot of flack. And no offense Mario mains, Mario just isn't as tough to face as Peach, DK and Rob (who are 55-45)

That doesn't matter. Having Peach and rob being better than Mario doesn't make them harder. Ness is lower than Bowser. But does that mean Bowser gives Olimar more trouble? No.

 

[PKNintendo]

I stopped reading at "Mario's dtilt".

But real talk, Ness has a sexy dtilt, but like you said, Mario's utilt is spammable, thus being combo-able. Ness' uptilt knocks them into the air, and that's it, your opponent can recovery after that... I don't know bout Ness' utilt range, but for Mario, I've hit an opponent hanging on the ledge before with an utilt. Mario's utilt also goes through Ness' dtilt from what I can tell from experience as well.

No Mario should be getting hit with a PK Flash, it's too predictable and too easy to cape :[

Mario isn't that great of a character, true, but he DOES have potential as said by the SBR.

Ness Uptilt doesn't pop em up TOO high unless their at a higher %. You risk dying from the cape, and hit Mario after he uses his Up B. A decent Ness can you use it pretty well you know. Mario's Uptilt is like a baby version of Snake's uptilt right (You hit someone hanging right?)

I agree, Ness/Mario may not be great but they have the potential.

That doesn't matter. Having Peach and rob being better than Mario doesn't make them harder. Ness is lower than Bowser. But does that mean Bowser gives Olimar more trouble? No.

What?
Anyway, I mean't to say that I have more trouble with Peach. (CG Ness) or Rob(Out range, out play) e.c.t Mario just has Edge guarding on Ness, and that doesn't account for the onstage battle. Which is more important.

I just think 50-50 is much more accurate.

 

[_clinton]

I feel like giving some frame data for you people to look at...

Mario
Jab: 2 frames

Forward Tilt: 5 frames
Up Tilt: 5 frames
Down Tilt: 7 frames

Dash Attack: 7 frames

Up Smash: 9 frames
Down Smash: 5 frames
Forward Smash: 15 frames

Side B: 12 frames
Neutral B: 14 frames
Down B: 25 frames?
Up B: 3 frames

Forward Aerial: 22 frames
Back Aerial: 6 frames
Down Aerial: 5 frames
Up Aerial: 4 frames
Neutral Aerial: 4 frames

Ness
Jab: 4 frames

Forward Tilt: 7 frames
Up Tilt: 5 frames
Down Tilt: 4 frames

Dash Attack: 8, 24, 39 frames

Up Smash: 10, 23 frames
Down Smash: 10, 17 frames
Forward Smash: 21 frames

Side B: 21, 10 per flame hit frames
Neutral B: 42 frames uncharged
Down B: 10 frames to start absorbing
Up B:20 frames?
Up B2: Less then 60 frames needed for PKT2 at my fastest timing

Forward Aerial:8, 14, 20, 26, 32 frames
Back Aerial: 10 frames
Down Aerial: 19 frames
Up Aerial: 8 frames
Neutral Aerial: 4 frames

Some notes here...they didn't have the start up time for FLUDD or PK Thunder...so I went and tried to fill that info in by comparing some things...

 

[PKNintendo]

I feel like giving some frame data for you people to look at...

Mario
Jab: 2 frames

Forward Tilt: 5 frames
Up Tilt: 5 frames
Down Tilt: 7 frames

Dash Attack: 7 frames

Up Smash: 9 frames
Down Smash: 5 frames
Forward Smash: 15 frames

Side B: 12 frames
Neutral B: 14 frames
Down B: 25 frames?
Up B: 3 frames

Forward Aerial: 22 frames
Back Aerial: 6 frames
Down Aerial: 5 frames
Up Aerial: 4 frames
Neutral Aerial: 4 frames

Ness
Jab: 4 frames

Forward Tilt: 7 frames
Up Tilt: 5 frames
Down Tilt: 4 frames

Dash Attack: 8, 24, 39 frames

Up Smash: 10, 23 frames
Down Smash: 10, 17 frames
Forward Smash: 21 frames

Side B: 21, 10 per flame hit frames
Neutral B: 42 frames uncharged
Down B: 10 frames to start absorbing
Up B:20 frames?
Up B2: Less then 60 frames needed for PKT2 at my fastest timing

Forward Aerial:8, 14, 20, 26, 32 frames
Back Aerial: 10 frames
Down Aerial: 19 frames
Up Aerial: 8 frames
Neutral Aerial: 4 frames

Some notes here...they didn't have the start up time for FLUDD or PK Thunder...so I went and tried to fill that info in by comparing some things...

Mario's Up Be... 3 frames... (dies)

 

[_clinton]

Mario's Up Be... 3 frames... (dies)

I like the Down Smash more...MK start up time baby (still...MK's ends faster...plus Zelda's Down Smash comes out on frame 4 o.O if you want to compare)

Oh and because I saw it already...

Ness' up tilt > Mario's up tilt ok ^_^

Just had to say that ^_^

174% for Ness on FD with D3 in order to score a star KO
185% for Mario on FD with D3 in order to score a star KO
Ness wins in KO power (not by much though), Mario wins at early damage build up (not by much though)

Ness' has DJed hitboxes on his to the point where he can **** with Link's Dair to a point...however Mario's still beats him in range (not by much they are really really close...again ^_^)...because Mario is a grown man who happens to be 3'3 or so...because he didn't start drinking his milk until someone paided him to do so ^_^

In truth I'm saying I like Ness' up tilt more just because I like the DJed hitbox on it...but they really are just about the same move just with different looks...

 

[Ace55]

Whats his name? Martio!

I thought it was Murphy?

10 00 year doors

 

[BoTastic!]

strange.. Utilt was never meant to KO >_> so you can't compare it.

 

[_clinton]

strange..Utilt was never meant to KO >_> so you can't compare it.

Ness' isn't meant to KO as well my good man...but they have around the same level of power when they are at KO range...which pretty much shows me that they are meant to do the same things pretty much if you think about it (we've already said it...IIRC...Ness beats Mario in killing power)...they also do the same amount of % (7%)

Notice how I did compared more then just KO power though? (and I even said that the killing power difference wasn't much...I mean really...a 6% difference is all there is)

Speed (they tie in start up time...I'm pretty sure they have the same cool down time as well...don't know about the stun time though)
Ness' is DJed...Mario's has like a 1% difference in range that can out do Ness'...but...really...I'm not joking about there only being a 1% difference