PKAY FIAH! ~ Ness MU Discussion [INDEX PAGE + Various Discussions]

[Stealth Raptor]

Thats cool contact me whenever and i can play. and i can give pika and lucario experience as well.

 

[Uffe]

Thats cool contact me whenever and i can play. and i can give pika and lucario experience as well.

Lucario is a pain. D; I suppose I can see what yours is like, too. I was actually expecting to fight Pikachu tonight.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

then get back on if you want. ;P i was just using rob for the matchup.

 

[Uffe]

Hopefully I can do better this time.

 

[Jtails]

for Dsmash shield then jump out of shield.

R.O.B. id say its an even match, ness can really get his damage in while rob is up-Bing. he cant dodge, thing to watch out for is his N-air.

Absorb the lazer. Bat the gyro like havokk suggested. There really isnt anything too bad about rob.
just if you spike him too high he can come back, whereas if it was someone else they would be dead. He spaces like marth in a sense with F-airs.
He can also eat the pkt and just fly back, but in my opinion the match is 50:50

 

[Gaussis]

A little something I typed a while back:

ROB is one real pain. He might be able to shield-grab a well-placed fair, but I'm not so sure on that. To top it off, he is hard to grab because of his annoying, yet effective sidestep dodge. Make sure you aren't being predictable or you will most likely lose. For some reason, PK fire doesn't work too well on him (or at least not when I fight him). PKT is a much better choice for two reasons: you can shield scrape him very easily (and it will eventually stun him), and his aerial mobility and size make him an easy target to tailwhip.

Speaking of PKT, be careful where you are using PKT. Though he can't counter it very effectively in the air with his aerials (most of them have startup lag), he can still laser you if you happen to be in the wrong spot. You can land easy PKT2 if you come straight down into his shield, provided that you used it up a bit. Though you cannot gimp his recovery (don't even try, it's disappointing to not be able to), you can rack easy damage tailwhipping him when he rises (he cannot airdodge during his up-b until after he attacks).

For approaching, a PK Jump works, but be careful not to land to close to him, or a grab is guaranteed. Fair is not that useful in this matchup, so try a dair approach (it should hit him out of his shield, though I can't remember if it does). Grabbing him is out of the question if you telegraph it. Beware of his dsmash. DI upwards if you get caught. Usmash is also something to watch out for, so don't try to come down on him too much. Finally, don't get into a range contest on the ground. You will most likely lose (unless if you can space you smashes, and even then it's risky).

In the air, you can try to aerial him, but try attacking him where he lacks a fast attack (fair and uair come out fast, nair so-so). If you get caught in his uair, DI out of it immediately (it is up, I believe) and you should be able to punish him most of the time. PKT is also an option, as described above. He shouldn't be a problem in the air, so long as you don't attack him where he has his fast attacks.

Finally little tidbits. If he launches his gyro, use the bat on it. People sometimes overlook the fact that they lost ownership of the gyro and take damage when they go retrieve it carelessly. Also while the gyro is out, he can't charge it again until it disappears. The laser's absorbable, but you have to use PSI magnet as soon as ROB does the startup lag animation for it. In other words, you better know when to use it. PKT can tailwhip the gyro at any charge, so you don't have to worry too much about that. That pretty much sums it up.

*Note: You might want to change the way you recover a bit. Make it so he can't tell where you will do it each time. Though most of the time, you won't need PKT to recover.

Might need a bit of editing, but I believe I express most if not all of what I want to say for this matchup.

 

[Jtails]

yea i agree with ^.

so what ratio would you give the match?

 

[Stealth Raptor]

i am more inclined to say 60/40 rob, maybe 55/45, but i have faced so few ness's with rob. i do think his range and priority and gimping abilities give him a slight edge.

 

[Jtails]

yea robs gimping ability i think you be the major factor hindering any advantage ness may have. also ROB's recovery.

stages with water i think would help ness. and what weight is rob?

 

[Gaussis]

I believe that a 60-40 is a bit too much. ROB is difficult, but he isn't exactly overwhelming. I would put it at a 55-45 ROB to the best of my knowledge. The thing here is to know exactly where ROB's weaknesses are and exploit them, matchup experience in other words.

 

[Jtails]

that sounds like compromise =D

55-45 sounds good.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

rob is 8th on the weight list, between wario and snake. however he has little acceleration in momentum, so if you send him flying it can be hard to slow rob down. i know of many times where if i could change velocity jas as fast as pikachu ROB would live so much.

 

[Darth JoBak]

side fact that ROB's forward and back throws are horizontal make edge camping and potential gimping swing the matchup in ROB's favor more so than 55-45

 

[PKNintendo]

I hate when people say their mains have an advantage over Ness, simply because they can gimp him. -_-

Anywho 55-45 seems right. Approaching Rob Is hell e.c.t.

 

[Jtails]

I hate when people say their mains have an advantage over Ness, simply because they can gimp him. -_-

Anywho 55-45 seems right. Approaching Rob Is hell e.c.t.

I mean i think Ness' ability to be gimped is his true weakness.

thus making characters that can fly a real pain. But i still think the rob match is even. due to ROB's vulnerability in the air, PKT circles could rack up damage quick.

 

[Brinzy]

Robot is hard. That's all I know.

Amazing contribution!

 

[Gaussis]

side fact that ROB's forward and back throws are horizontal make edge camping and potential gimping swing the matchup in ROB's favor more so than 55-45

One or two moves usually don't give an edge to the character. Otherwise, Ness would have an advantage with just PKT (sounds ridiculous, no?). It's 55:45 ROB because ROB has various defensive tools in his disposal, while Ness has methods of breaking them. The thing that keeps ROB difficult is his resisitance to getting KO'ed and his power both in the air and on the ground.

Stealth Raptor, if you still want Ness experience, I can play against you today or tomorrow. I'll play any ROB as a matter of fact.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

tomorrow. big school project tonight. but yes i dont mind playing.

 

[Gaussis]

Very well then.

*waits for other ROBs to come to the Ness boards.

 

[Jtails]

hey i wouldnt mind playing your ness v my rob. even though ness is my main main, rob is one of my top =D

 

[Popertop]

Wouldn't his up-b get ***** sometimes by PK flash?

 

[PKNintendo]

Wouldn't his up-b get ***** sometimes by PK flash?

X-actly. It's easy to choreograph

 

[Popertop]

Awesome. That would be pure sex.
I have to see taht now.
Vids plox. O rwayts. I will recorded against Sudai.

 

[PKNintendo]

Awesome. That would be pure sex.
I have to see taht now.
Vids plox. O rwayts. I will recorded against Sudai.

A Wario main plays Ness?

 

[Sudai]

Sadly me and Poper didn't get to record (I got to his house around 4 AM. X.x) but I'm here to impart some info from a ROB.

I personally put this match-up at 60-40 ROB.

From what I've seen, you guys are always approaching ROB, but I generally do the reverse in this match-up. Yes ROB has a great defensive game but his spacing game is one of his biggest assets in this match-up and can cause some serious pressure on Ness. ROB can quite literally approach and just wait at ROB's FTilt range. This eliminates a lot of Ness' options on the ground and if you try to take to the air, the only way to move fast enough to avoid an angled FTilt or FAir is to jump away, but you'll eventually run out of stage and this becomes a really bad idea.

ROB beats Ness on the ground at a distance and a midish range, however at the peak of PKFire range, I'd give you guys a slight advantage but it's hard to stay at that range.

In the air Ness beats ROB from below and from the sides when up close. ROB's UAir beats everything Ness has from below and ROB's FAir is disjointed enough to get through your FAir if spaced right.

Off Stage..don't bother going out to edge guard ROB. Your only (decent) edge guard options are PKThunder and PKFire. Like earlier, ROB outranges your everywhere you'll be able to get. PKCross would only work if ROB recovers low and can't go under the stage (fuel restrictions or flat out can't do it).

Ness is gimpable, but in my experience vs good Ness players, it's not easy. It's not difficult, but it's not as easy as Wolf, imo. At the very least, though, expect 15-30%+ if you don't die.

I'm also fairly sure ROB had a grab-release chaingrab on Ness. Grab Release Ground Break > DTilt > Regrab. Overswarm mentioned this a while back when he used to play ROB and it worked the times I tried it. I haven't used it since 2-3 months ago though because I don't like to use stuff like that if I don't have to. Something to look into.

But anyway, yeah, if anyone can contest the points I said in a reasonable manner that I can't debaukle, I might agree with 55-45 in ROB's favor, but as it stands after reading through the Ness boards post and having the knowledge I have, I'm gonna have to say it's 60-40 ROB's favor at best, for Ness.

 

[Uffe]

Sadly me and Poper didn't get to record (I got to his house around 4 AM. X.x) but I'm here to impart some info from a ROB.

I personally put this match-up at 60-40 ROB.

From what I've seen, you guys are always approaching ROB, but I generally do the reverse in this match-up. Yes ROB has a great defensive game but his spacing game is one of his biggest assets in this match-up and can cause some serious pressure on Ness. ROB can quite literally approach and just wait at ROB's FTilt range. This eliminates a lot of Ness' options on the ground and if you try to take to the air, the only way to move fast enough to avoid an angled FTilt or FAir is to jump away, but you'll eventually run out of stage and this becomes a really bad idea.

ROB beats Ness on the ground at a distance and a midish range, however at the peak of PKFire range, I'd give you guys a slight advantage but it's hard to stay at that range.

In the air Ness beats ROB from below and from the sides when up close. ROB's UAir beats everything Ness has from below and ROB's FAir is disjointed enough to get through your FAir if spaced right.

Off Stage..don't bother going out to edge guard ROB. Your only (decent) edge guard options are PKThunder and PKFire. Like earlier, ROB outranges your everywhere you'll be able to get. PKCross would only work if ROB recovers low and can't go under the stage (fuel restrictions or flat out can't do it).

Ness is gimpable, but in my experience vs good Ness players, it's not easy. It's not difficult, but it's not as easy as Wolf, imo. At the very least, though, expect 15-30%+ if you don't die.

I'm also fairly sure ROB had a grab-release chaingrab on Ness. Grab Release Ground Break > DTilt > Regrab. Overswarm mentioned this a while back when he used to play ROB and it worked the times I tried it. I haven't used it since 2-3 months ago though because I don't like to use stuff like that if I don't have to. Something to look into.

But anyway, yeah, if anyone can contest the points I said in a reasonable manner that I can't debaukle, I might agree with 55-45 in ROB's favor, but as it stands after reading through the Ness boards post and having the knowledge I have, I'm gonna have to say it's 60-40 ROB's favor at best, for Ness.

Sounds reasonable. I've seen your name before on the R.O.B. boards and I'd assume you're pretty good and that you know what you're talking about. It's not because of your ranking on SmashBoards, either. Anyway, I was just saying 55:45 in R.O.B.'s favor because when I fought Stealth Raptor, I was able to get him down to his last stock but was unable to beat him until the last match I did. He did a lot of good tactics that I'd expect from a good R.O.B., too. It was strange that I managed to return even though he pushed me far off the screen.

But yeah, whenever I was recovering, I did my best to avoid getting gimped, daired or whatever means R.O.B. could use to gimp Ness. Though 55:45 sounds good, I can see why 60:40 makes more sense. But it's not like Ness can't beat R.O.B.

 

[Gaussis]

Sadly me and Poper didn't get to record (I got to his house around 4 AM. X.x) but I'm here to impart some info from a ROB.

I personally put this match-up at 60-40 ROB.

From what I've seen, you guys are always approaching ROB, but I generally do the reverse in this match-up. Yes ROB has a great defensive game but his spacing game is one of his biggest assets in this match-up and can cause some serious pressure on Ness. ROB can quite literally approach and just wait at ROB's FTilt range. This eliminates a lot of Ness' options on the ground and if you try to take to the air, the only way to move fast enough to avoid an angled FTilt or FAir is to jump away, but you'll eventually run out of stage and this becomes a really bad idea.

ROB beats Ness on the ground at a distance and a midish range, however at the peak of PKFire range, I'd give you guys a slight advantage but it's hard to stay at that range.

In the air Ness beats ROB from below and from the sides when up close. ROB's UAir beats everything Ness has from below and ROB's FAir is disjointed enough to get through your FAir if spaced right.

Off Stage..don't bother going out to edge guard ROB. Your only (decent) edge guard options are PKThunder and PKFire. Like earlier, ROB outranges your everywhere you'll be able to get. PKCross would only work if ROB recovers low and can't go under the stage (fuel restrictions or flat out can't do it).

Ness is gimpable, but in my experience vs good Ness players, it's not easy. It's not difficult, but it's not as easy as Wolf, imo. At the very least, though, expect 15-30%+ if you don't die.

I'm also fairly sure ROB had a grab-release chaingrab on Ness. Grab Release Ground Break > DTilt > Regrab. Overswarm mentioned this a while back when he used to play ROB and it worked the times I tried it. I haven't used it since 2-3 months ago though because I don't like to use stuff like that if I don't have to. Something to look into.

But anyway, yeah, if anyone can contest the points I said in a reasonable manner that I can't debaukle, I might agree with 55-45 in ROB's favor, but as it stands after reading through the Ness boards post and having the knowledge I have, I'm gonna have to say it's 60-40 ROB's favor at best, for Ness.

I'm going to have to play more experienced ROBs to see this. I'm not disagreeing with you or anything. The thing is that the match could go either way. Defensive ROBs are good at defending Ness's attacks, but an approaching ROB? I've never really encountered a successful one , so I can't argue.

Thesage mentioned a chaingrab, so it might need to be looked into.

I still hold for even, but I need to play more ROBs.

@ Stealth Raptor: I unfortunately wasn't able to play today. Maybe tomorrow?

 

[Stealth Raptor]

yes im sorry, with doing an all nighter last night i was pretty unfit to play today lol. kept getting headaches. ill be ready tomorrow.

 

[Sudai]

I'm not saying ROB has to approach and attack, but approaching and then waiting. Attacking isn't the only way to approach. Zoning is a pivotal part of ROB's game in an assortment of matches (Ness, Lucas, Falco, Zelda, ect, ect.) People that camping can work against (save for Falco, can't camp that heffer) but instead use our range and disjointedness to shut down. I don't feel the match is an insta-loss for Ness, that'd be more like a 75-25 or 70-30 rating. I'm just arguing that ROB has an advantage over ness, a la 60-40. 55-45 would mean the match-up is essentially even, but I just can't see it being even like that. Ness just doesn't have the tools to deal with a ROB that spaces well and waits for Ness to make the first move.

 

[smasher?o.0]

no arguin on MK

 

[Wolydarg]

Just thought I'd throw this in here.

I don't have much experience vs Ness, but I did play a guy who was absolutely obsessed with his for a bit.

Don't try to spike ROB. You're just going to end up eating a Uair.

ROB's recovery looks predictable but to give you an idea of how much fuel we have, we can fly from the ground to the point where we start taking damage for being off screen off the ceiling of FD. So unless you know he's not at max fuel capacity, don't invest too much in edge guarding.

I forgot what % it takes, but I think it's a bit above 100 to kill ROB.

Don't count on being able to absorb lasers consistently. G&W has a much more potentially dangerous down-b and I find that I am still able to laser him quite often in a match.

I'll agree with Sudai in that it's not an automatic loss for Ness, but it's definitely in ROB's favor simply because of spacing advantage and being able to edgeguard like a mofo.

 

[PKNintendo]

Sadly me and Poper didn't get to record (I got to his house around 4 AM. X.x) but I'm here to impart some info from a ROB.

I personally put this match-up at 60-40 ROB.

From what I've seen, you guys are always approaching ROB, but I generally do the reverse in this match-up. Yes ROB has a great defensive game but his spacing game is one of his biggest assets in this match-up and can cause some serious pressure on Ness. ROB can quite literally approach and just wait at ROB's FTilt range. This eliminates a lot of Ness' options on the ground and if you try to take to the air, the only way to move fast enough to avoid an angled FTilt or FAir is to jump away, but you'll eventually run out of stage and this becomes a really bad idea.

ROB beats Ness on the ground at a distance and a midish range, however at the peak of PKFire range, I'd give you guys a slight advantage but it's hard to stay at that range.

In the air Ness beats ROB from below and from the sides when up close. ROB's UAir beats everything Ness has from below and ROB's FAir is disjointed enough to get through your FAir if spaced right.

Off Stage..don't bother going out to edge guard ROB. Your only (decent) edge guard options are PKThunder and PKFire. Like earlier, ROB outranges your everywhere you'll be able to get. PKCross would only work if ROB recovers low and can't go under the stage (fuel restrictions or flat out can't do it).

Ness is gimpable, but in my experience vs good Ness players, it's not easy. It's not difficult, but it's not as easy as Wolf, imo. At the very least, though, expect 15-30%+ if you don't die.

I'm also fairly sure ROB had a grab-release chaingrab on Ness. Grab Release Ground Break > DTilt > Regrab. Overswarm mentioned this a while back when he used to play ROB and it worked the times I tried it. I haven't used it since 2-3 months ago though because I don't like to use stuff like that if I don't have to. Something to look into.

But anyway, yeah, if anyone can contest the points I said in a reasonable manner that I can't debaukle, I might agree with 55-45 in ROB's favor, but as it stands after reading through the Ness boards post and having the knowledge I have, I'm gonna have to say it's 60-40 ROB's favor at best, for Ness.

WOAH there partner. One match doesn't equal everything you know. I love your post though, it's incredibly intelligent, for once someone say's Ness recovery is NOT TOO GIMPABLE. And why is he maining Ness? (popertop) I've never seen him here. Fishy. Why don't you play other Ness mains?

Also, WHAT CG!

 

[Stealth Raptor]

O.o ill try it out when i play a ness lol

 

[PKNintendo]

O.o ill try it out when i play a ness lol

If Ness has a CG on Rob...

 

[Stealth Raptor]

it would have to be a grab release as all of yours are too strong. ill try out rob one the next time i get on.

 

[Sudai]

WOAH there partner. One match doesn't equal everything you know.

I don't see where I said that I got this info from one match. Maybe I mislead you somewhere in my post and if that's the case, I'm sorry. I've played a number of matches vs Ness against a few different Ness players.

I love your post though, it's incredibly intelligent, for once someone say's Ness recovery is NOT TOO GIMPABLE.

Thanks. I hate stupid posters. You'd know this if you've ever seen someone make a stupid post on the R.O.B. boards.. I'm more known for crushing people's souls than I am for contributing to the community. (Probably not, but I like to think so anyway.)

Also, WHAT CG!

As I said, I'm not 100% on if it's a CG or not and I have no competent people at campus to help me test this, but... Grab Release Ground Break > DTilt > Dashgrab. If someone else wants to test it, feel free, but I'll be able to test this by Friday night at the latest. I don't think the chaingrab should play too large a part in match rating, but I figure it's good information to have regardless.

Edit: This is ROB doing the CG. I've never heard of a Ness CG on ROB. That'd be news to me. o.o

 

[PKNintendo]

I don't see where I said that I got this info from one match. Maybe I mislead you somewhere in my post and if that's the case, I'm sorry. I've played a number of matches vs Ness against a few different Ness players.



Thanks. I hate stupid posters. You'd know this if you've ever seen someone make a stupid post on the R.O.B. boards.. I'm more known for crushing people's souls than I am for contributing to the community. (Probably not, but I like to think so anyway.)



As I said, I'm not 100% on if it's a CG or not and I have no competent people at campus to help me test this, but... Grab Release Ground Break > DTilt > Dashgrab. If someone else wants to test it, feel free, but I'll be able to test this by Friday night at the latest. I don't think the chaingrab should play too large a part in match rating, but I figure it's good information to have regardless.

Yeah I was misleaded. What ROB! ****. I wanted Ness to have it...

 

[Stealth Raptor]

ok i am testing this. will edit this post.

Edit: this is dependant on ONE thing- the dtilt must trip. if it trips you get a free grab. i did that at like 70 lol. if it doesnt trip they can jump, down dodge or justwalk away. this was done without the super grab release break.

 

[PKNintendo]

ok i am testing this. will edit this post.

Edit: this is dependant on ONE thing- the dtilt must trip. if it trips you get a free grab. i did that at like 70 lol. if it doesnt trip they can jump, down dodge or justwalk away. this was done without the super grab release break.

K thanks. I wish Ness could do this to Rob. You know, dtilt>bufferdash grab regrab. Is it possible?

 

[Stealth Raptor]

ill test it though i doubt it.

EDIT: no not even close lol