PK Freeze - A look into Lucas's possibly underrated move?

[Tyr_03]

I've spent some time messing around with PK Freeze to see if there's any reason for using it and here's what I've come up with.

First of all, Lucas has an extremely high degree of control over PK Freeze. You can send it forward, then back, then forward again before it times out and explodes. Messing around with the timing and spacing with this may actually give you a chance of hitting with it.

PK Freeze will always time out and explode as it reaches the horizontal level of around Lucas's feet assuming you are holding B and it doesn't hit another solid object.

PK Freeze does pretty substantial damage to shields.

PK Freeze's vertical hitbox range is pathetic but its horizontal hitbox range is surprisingly large. You can use this to your advantage as well to occasionally actually hit with it by catching an opponent by surprise with it's horizontal size.

PK Freeze sends the opponent upward and slightly to the side depending on where you hit them from. Damage, knockback, and freeze time is affected by stale moves. Opponents immediately break out of the ice when hit with fire based attacks.

While frozen, opponents take around half the damage they normally would from attacks. It varies a little bit.

Opponents break out of the ice by doing a short hop out of which they can almost immediately attack.

PK Freeze stage spiking is actually quite impressive and sends opponents downward at a very rapid rate. However, because the move times out when it reaches Lucas's feet, there is no real way to do this while standing on the stage leaving your only option to jump off, lower yourself and perform the move (assuming the opponent is beneath the stage) and use PK Freeze leading to your death. On some maps like Skyworld it's actually somewhat plausible because you can do it while standing on the stage but you would have to be pretty close to the opponent to do it and I really wouldn't advise trying.

Diminishing returns ARE affected by hitting frozen opponents. If you hit a frozen opponent with another PK Freeze it will do less damage and diminish the attack. If you use other attacks on an opponent that is frozen you negate the diminished return for PK Freeze.

It takes an enemy around 4 seconds to escape from being frozen without any controller input at full charge PK Freeze. While spinning the analog stick around like mad it takes between 2 and 3 seconds. Weight and damage percentage do not noticably affect freeze time.

At lower percentages or against heavier characters it is possible to edgeguard with PK Freeze by freezing them, predicting when they will unfreeze and preparing an aerial to hit them as soon as they do. If their percentage is too high, especially against lighter characters they will go too high and you won't be able to make it up in time to hit them.

 

[Fredd]

-Sigh-

Whyyy!
But, PK Freeze looks "oh so flashy."

I don`t even think of considering using PK Freeze during 1vs1`s.
However, in Free for All`s, it can be used when your opponents are clustered together.
Watching three iceberg-looking things pop up is so pretty ~​

 

[Fhed]

Tyr_03, i strongly agree that pk freeze isnt that useful. Eventhough its fast i fiund it hard to use against the opponent. Eventhough i rarely use this move, i think that the best thing to do with this move is to use as mindgames. Do it off the stage and once it ends , fair the opponent.

 

[purekorea]

I like it for when someone is one the ledge and I notice they like to jump up from the ledge. I'll space my self so the arc of the pk freeze conincides with their jump arc. Other than that yea I agree on it being utterly useless.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

I've been messing around with PK freeze a lot recently to try and see f it's better than I originally thought, and I found out that it's somewhat more useful if you do it backwards...because by the time it moves over to your opponent, it's actually on a good angle to hit people with, instead of going over their heads. Of course, you don't get the same kind of range.

PK Freeze isn't bad for mindgames sometims. I've hit opponetns who've tried to short hop towards me with a half-charged PK freeze by accident once.

It's an annoying move for annoying people at a distance aftar you've landed a move with good knockback.

 

[Fishcake56]

Assuming that the opponent has not racked up too much damage, a plausible follow through strategy is to freeze them again as soon as they escape (or even if they haven't).

 

[GofG]

I'm waiting for an infinite to appear on some character, where we can use a combination of good timing and abuse of diminishing returns to infinitely hold someone in a series of PK Freezes until they die.

That will make this move useful.

 

[Tyr_03]

the time it takes for opponents to break out is too variable. It's dependent on damage, controller input and stale moves. It's too unpredictable to be used as an infinite.

 

[Levitas]

I'll do some testing when I get the chance on whether you can freeze a frozen person. Freeze > Zapjump > Freeze would be a funny finisher if it worked (of course, zap jump in a way that you don't hit them).

 

[Tyr_03]

using PK Freeze on an opponent who is already frozen doesn't refreeze them. It just does half the damage. You'd have to time it for the exact moment that they popped out of being frozen which is varied by three seperate aspects as I've stated. It's simply not plausible to do it consistently.

 

[Trozz]

What if it was a 2v2 and both players were Lucas? One person casts Freeze, the foe gets thrown up, then hit by the second Lucas's freeze and flies off screen. That could be fun.

I hate how Freeze sometimes comes out when I'm mashing the b-stick around.

 

[Tyr_03]

I just happened to stumble across this video that shows the best use of PK Freeze I've ever seen.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=E7vzIhuXnMg&feature=related
around 0:48

It probably could have been avoided if Wolf had inputted differently to break out at a different time or just avoided it better in the first place but the move is enough of a wild card I can see it being pulled off fairly easily. So if your opponent happens to be at just the right spacing and percentage you can try this one out.

 

[Trozz]

Woah, he set that up for b-air perfectly. I should try that out.

MinD plays a pretty impressive Lucas. The Video Compendium sticky doesn't mention him at all though.

 

[Earthbound360]

What percents can you actually combo them from? I mean, I sometimes freeze them, but they fly so high up and break out before I can even hit them!

 

[Fredd]

Yeah, the fact that PK Freeze sends opponents upwards poses as a problem.

However, I must say that the PK Freeze > B:air succession was quite nice
; )

L> the perfect timing that PK Freeze sends the opponents downwards, instead.​

 

[GofG]

Tyr: Do you know if diminishing returns are at all affected by an attack being performed on a frozen enemy?

 

[Tyr_03]

Diminishing returns ARE affected by hitting frozen opponents. If you hit a frozen opponent with another PK Freeze it will do less damage and diminish the attack. If you use other attacks on an opponent that is frozen you negate the diminished return for PK Freeze.

I did some time testing and it takes an enemy around 4 seconds to escape from being frozen without any controller input at full charge PK Freeze. While spinning the analog stick around like mad it takes between 2 and 3 seconds. However, unlike I thought at first, the time it takes to break out of the ice is not affected by damage percentage AT ALL. Or atleast if it is it's by a small enough amount that it's hardly worth noting. Also weight does not affect how long it takes for them to break out.

lol it's starting to look like I might need to change the title of the thread. This all means that the timing when the enemy is going to come out is very predictable. The only issue now is how high it hits opponents. Against the heavy characters it isn't so bad and you can get there in time to use an attack as they break out but against lighter characters at any decent percentage they're going to be out of your range. Even with the zap jump you'd be hard pressed to get a chance to attack before your 2 seconds are up. And of course realize that if you mistime it they have the perfect chance to punish you if you're close.

Stale moves shouldn't be a problem because it isn't exactly a move you're going to want to spam. I wouldn't suggest trying to freeze them repeatedly as they break out because there isn't going to be time to get hits off on them while they're frozen and have a charged PK Freeze ready in time. Once you have stale moves and a not fully charge PK Freeze on them they're going to break out before you have time to do anything of any use.

 

[Mezna]

I think Pk freeze does do well for messing with peoples recovery. It's almost instinct for a person to see a big attack like that coming and think "OH SH**! *air dodge*" . And when they air dodge, then they lose vertical and maybe horizontal distance. Good for tether recoveries and people who's recovery is best in a single direction. Try it out, people wil most likely not want to be hit by it and mess up a bit. And if you delay it then you could hit them with it...

 

[Proverbs]

Agreed, I used to use PK Freeze as my edgeguarder before I learned to use PKT1 to chase (which does work better most of the time). But if you only use PK Freeze to edgeguard once or twice during a battle you can really catch someone off guard. For characters with bad recovery like Olimar they'd probably be better off getting hit by it and getting sent upward, rather than airdodging it and possibly not getting back to the stage. Extra damage is better than a KO.

 

[Trozz]

I'd still rather use PKT in every situation.

 

[Tyr_03]

I've occasionally started using PK Freeze when they're already pretty close to the ledge. There's a certain distance that it gets pretty difficult to edgeguard with PKT1 against characters with good recoveries. Using PK Freeze instead every once in a while can really catch people off guard in these rare situations and basically give you a free spike kill. I actually got a round of applause from my friends doing this in a 1 v 1.

So for most situations yeah PK Thunder is better but I can definetly see some uses for it every once in a while.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

On the stage spiking angle, I thought I'd mention that it's quite possible on the third phase of Castle Siege, and likely Lylat Cruise as well, since they tilt a bit as time passes. I've personally stage spiked on Castle Siege with PK Freeze, but not on Lylat Cruise yet.

*inserts $0.02*

 

[Proverbs]

By the way (only significant for IC matchups) when Lucas releases PK Freeze he jumps a little bit. When he does this, he'll jump straight over the IC's icicle type things they hit. Don't know if this will help with anything, but see if you can put this information to good use. Sorry if it's old.

 

[Earthbound360]

Can it be used effectively as an alternate, priority ignoring, larger range uair?

 

[Tyr_03]

Earthbound360: I doubt it. Even were you to tap B it just takes too long to come out and uncharged it doesn't do as much damage, knockback or freeze time. Were you to charge it, you could hold it there but it would fall to the level that Lucas's feet were when you used the move. By that point the opponent would probably have a pretty good idea of what you were doing and could airdodge it. Airdodging it vertically would be much easier than airdodging it horizontally because it has a ridiculously small vertical hitbox. On top of that, even if you were to hit them with it, Lucas is completely helpless in the air after using PK Freeze so you'd have to fall back down to the stage before you could do anything to hit them again. This also means that if you miss you can be punished extremely easily. Just doesn't work out.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Lol, I found something cool (haha pun) about PK freeze when it hits. This was only against a CPU opponent, but I landed a fully charged PK Freeze on the stage, sending the opponent up really high in the air. I double-jumped, trying to follow them up, and just when they broke out of it, I used PK thunder and KOed them off the top of the stage with it.

PK Freeze practically forces your opponent up towards the top of the screen when it hits, and since you can move before they break out, it allows you to do some high-altitude PK thunder harassment.

 

[Neb]

Hey guys. I've used a somewhat surprising combo with this technique. Say you some how hit your opponent with the freeze, after doing so, you launch out another one, and hover it above them (this is where they break loose and fly upwards). When they fly upwards you release it, chaining them into another pk freeze as they're hit with it. Its good for racking up damage and can be easily be combo'd.

 

[Tyr_03]

Neb the problem with this is that everytime you do another PK Freeze you're making the move stale which decreases the amount of freeze time. So you're not going to get more than maybe two freezes before they start breaking out too fast for you get one there in time. My personal favorite combo after freezing them is to jump next to them and use PK Thunder into PKT2. This way if you mistime it sometimes you can catch them in the tail and hit them with PKT2 pretty easily. Bair is nice for spikes too.

 

[Neb]

Your right, I've done that as well. But sometimes its difficult to run up to them in time to perform PKT2, if you just do PKT and whip it around the frozen foe, it does consecutive damage. And yes, the combo that I made is intentionally for two chains, unless you can do more. I see it as maybe an edgeguard, because by the time their out of the first, they're already too low, and to freeze them again so that they fall to their death, only really requires three second.

But on another note, when you perform PKT2 on them when frozen, does he pull them along for maximum damage?

 

[bluebolt]

Use PK freeze when the enemy is out of the stage, use it above their head to freeze them as they cant move. sneaky move

 

[Tyr_03]

Levitas: If they're still frozen when you PKT2 into them you go through them and will usually only get a weak hit or two. Best situation you hit with PKT2 just as they're breaking out. Takes some careful timing as any move does to hit them out of PK Freeze. I usually use this for edgeguarding because sometimes they're hit too high by PK Freeze to get above them with a spike. It's easier for me to prepare a PKT2 and have them fall into it.

 

[GimmeAnFSharp]

I've been able at low percentages to refreeze people 3-4 times in a row; I once started my opponent's last stock with 4 freezes before a barrel appeared in front of him, so I ran up and hit it and then followed him off the stage with Fairs (much like Toon Links do with bair) and finished pushing him off with a PK Thunder 1.

One of the funnest kills of my life. But, it was mostly just a matter of mindgames; I'm sure a good opponent would've altered their break out times enough that I wouldn't be able to spam it like I did.

 

[Earthbound360]

For the PKF chain, wouldnt that shove them REALLY high up on the screen after about 70%? If so, that could get star KOs right?

 

[Tyr_03]

Yea but the issue is that you'd have to get up to their level in time to refreeze them. Even with the zap jump I don't think you could make it in time.

 

[GofG]

Woah, what happened to the title. Underrated?

*Reads thread*

 

[Neb]

Well, I don't think its really underrated, just haven't found a good use for it yet. So thats what I guess where're trying to figure out. PKF does descent damage and can KO at (estimating) about 70, but the chain freeze works well, it might make the break-out time shorter, but you hardly notice it since you're actually getting closer to the foe with each freeze.

I've also heard switching up PKT and PKF can confuse foes, so it isn't so predictable. Anybody ever tried freezing foes when they're really close to you? You could probably combo with a fully charged U-smash.

 

[Tyr_03]

PK Freeze just has to be used with very careful spacing. Opponents will often be afraid to approach if you have PK Freeze out and keep it close to you. You just have to make sure they aren't close when you begin the move and you're alright. I'd do a double freeze at most for chain freezing and it has to be at low percentages. You could probably fit in three depending on if the opponent varies their break out time. At high percentages they're going to be hit too high.

As far as edgeguarding they pretty much have to be at just the right distance for it to be of good use. I use it when I've hit the opponent very far away but they're not much higher than the stage. At this distance PK Thunder is going to be easier for them to dodge and PK Freeze might be a good thing to mix it up.

 

[TechnoMonster]

There is a lot of discussion about how to use PK freeze after you hit with it, but the biggest deal is how do you hit with it? I mean, it's an ok attack to hit with, it does good damage and has some interesting follow-ups, but the risk of using it is blatantly prohibitive compared with a low connect % and only decent rewards.

 

[Tyr_03]

Debatable Technomonster. It is doubtless that PK Freeze is the hardest move for Lucas to hit with. However, the rewards for hitting with it can be pretty substantial and if used carefully can involve very little risk. When PK Freeze is used on the ground there is very little lag following the move. PK Freeze can also travel a moderately good horizontal distance. This means that if you use PK Freeze across for example Final Destination, even if you miss the opponent will not be able to attack you before your lag is over.

That said, using PK Freeze when an opponent is even moderately close or on stages with lots of platforms is not advisable. If an opponent can get around PK Freeze's limited vertical range they can easily punish you. Hitting with PK Freeze will almost always require mindgames of some sort. You can vary where PK Freeze hits by moving it forward and back. Also make use of its deceptively large horizontal hitbox to catch opponents offguard.

As I've said before there are only very few instances where it's the better choice for edgeguarding over PK Thunder. These are usually if an opponent is around stage level and relatively far away. Obviously this is also dependent on the opponent's mode of recovery.

I use PK Freeze maybe once every two or three matches depending on how my opponent is playing and reacting. The point of this thread has become to suggest possible uses for a move which is generally ignored altogether.

 

[Levitas]

I honestly think it's more of a low risk low yield venture. Use it when they're far away and there's something between you and them (like if they're on the platform on the fire stage of Pokemon stadium and you're behind the tree).

It's great for sandbagging, though.