Pit Matchup Discussion - Sonic

[Coffee™]

Blue Spinning Thingy

Sonic



This picture is really awesome btw.

I didn't see a Pro's and Cons listed in the Sonic Board but I'm sure everything will be ironed out through discussion.

Discuss.....

 

[DemonicTrilogy]

Sonic is very fast at doing continuous attacks to rack up damage. His special approaches make him completely invincible to melee and weaker projectiles since they cancel out all the damage while being canceled. The only problem Sonic has is when he is fighting below him since we can use Up-air or punish a predicted dair from him on the ground.

 

[Ryos4]

Hmm against sonic, i think for the most part you just have to watch out for grabs. Sonic is really fast, and if they are good with him they will be able to grab really fast and often. Grabs also seem to be used a lot foor sonics combos and kills. I think its the Uthrow, where he throws u on his spikes. But it combos well up uair and bair.

Spring jump is also something u need to watch out for. Especially off stage, where it can gimp you. But, its also used alot for sonics combos and kills too, uair>spring jump>uair. They will also use the spring jump to do the "dair spike" even though it doesnt really spike. If you see it coming then u can dodge it and prepare fore sonics up special and set up a Bair when hes forced to spring jump back up.

I kinda see his spin attack as pretty useless, but doesnt mean the sonic wont spam it. Best thing to do is just shield or spot dodge it, because most sonic players will try to always attack right as it hits you. If you shield or spot dodge ull be perfectly safe for the most part. And free to chase him down.

Other then that, theres not much to most sonic players. Just be aware of his speed, and u'll do fine. Just keep in mind that arrows probably wont help you at all against sonic, just too fast. lol.

 

[Kinzer]

So what exactly are you looking for out of this versino of the matchup, do you have like a list the Mario boards got when they list pros and cons of a specific character and how they mgiht affect the character in the particular matchup?

 

[Coffee™]

An overall summary about the matchup will be made as well as a matchup ratio decided on. You can see examples in the stickied matchup thread here http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=197115. This thread is just for discussion of the matchup.

 

[Tenki]

Sonic is very fast at doing continuous attacks to rack up damage. His special approaches make him completely invincible to melee and weaker projectiles since they cancel out all the damage while being canceled. The only problem Sonic has is when he is fighting below him since we can use Up-air or punish a predicted dair from him on the ground.

sort of, but... no.

His spindashes have abysmal priority. If used smartly, they shouldn't be used often for anything other than punishment. Spindashes are best used to punish lag (startup, commitment, ending lag, and... reaction/connection..lag lol). But if you're in an idle state (walking, standing, running, etc) you can either grab him out of it, or shield it and jump a U-air out of shield to punish what's usually an instant jump+aerial. Some Pit players I've played online would SH D-air if I went for a pure grounded roll approach, since SH D-air beats out the spindash roll.

[1] Spring jump is also something u need to watch out for. Especially off stage, where it can gimp you. But, its also used alot for sonics combos and kills too, uair>spring jump>uair. They will also use the spring jump to do the "dair spike" even though it doesnt really spike. If you see it coming then u can dodge it and prepare fore sonics up special and set up a Bair when hes forced to spring jump back up.

[2] I kinda see his spin attack as pretty useless, but doesnt mean the sonic wont spam it. Best thing to do is just shield or spot dodge it, because most sonic players will try to always attack right as it hits you. If you shield or spot dodge ull be perfectly safe for the most part. And free to chase him down.

Other then that, theres not much to most sonic players. Just be aware of his speed, and u'll do fine. Just keep in mind that arrows probably wont help you at all against sonic, just too fast. lol.

[1] Spring > U-air is such a cliche low level move that it's pretty much (setup)>spring > (wait for airdodge) > U-air/B-air now lol.

[2] Don't assume that competent Sonic mains will play like you describe though. Shielding is almost always the best defensive option. Become spotdodge or roll happy and you're playing into our field of punishment. "Oh! Sonic is trying to hit me with a spindash lol I'll just spotdodge- Hey, he stopped in front of me while I was spotdodging??" *gets grabbed*

It isn't exactly a good idea to be spotdodge, roll, or airdodge happy in this matchup (or in any matchup against Sonic- see here). Just go for the priority card. Pit's aerials do pretty well against Sonic.

 

[Kinzer]

Oh I see how it works. Well, here I go.

Having fought some very potent Pits, I should hope to have at least some kind of knowledge of this matchup.

You shouldn't rely on Arrows if you tend to spam them, Sonic has the speed and the micups to throw you off your timing, and if you happen to pick up on the timing he is using then, a good Sonic will be able to change the way he plays to keep you guessing. Obviously though, We will be doing the approaching.

Sonic has the same problems Pit is known for... probably the same benefits as well. Sonic has trouble killing people thanks to his lack of K.O. moves, and the ones that can be used frequently will probably be decayed to the point that any non-gimp kills from Sonic will be coming past 120% or depending on character weight. I'm not exactly sure how heavy Pit is, but I assume he's somewhere on the med-lighter half of the cast. Anyway don't worry about dying unless you get hit by like a Foward or Down Smash, and the Down Smash will only be used if you like to roll/spotdodge a lot. Sonic also has average range on his attacks at most, with Bair/Uair being used to space a lot of attacks.

Offstage can go either way, but I wouldn't recommand striking down Sonic with arrows, anybody with any character who knows how to airdodge will be doing it so you don't gimp them offstage with them, and while some characters can't really afford to abuse this, Sonic can recover from about any place off the screen. You'd be better off just placing/timing your Fair/Bairs to hit Sonic offstage, or going for the Nairs. Now when it comes to you recovering, Sonic can hit you from any angle and still be able to make it back himself, I would suggest doing whatever you can to discourage him from trying to do it, but usually Sonic's go for the Bair/Fair/Nair/Spring-drop/Dair/HA for the gimp/offstage K.O.s.

Pick any stage you feel comfortable with counterpicking, Sonic probably has no bad stages (except for maybe Pchochat/JJ, but I don't know about Picho's legalty and whether Pit does good or Bad on JJ... and it might also have to do with me just looking at JJ with disgust). For neutrals, you might want to go with Battlefield since it disrupts some of Sonic's normal stratigies you would be seeing if you were fighting on Final Destination. I'm not kidding about this, Sonic can go to just about any stage and still do decently on them all.

Whiff an Angel Ring, and we'll probably just Spinshot into a Bair or go for the humiliating overhead jump into Dair/Homing Attack. You could use Mirror Shield to try and turn Sonic around the other way if he decides to go for the Spring recovery, but that only looks like it's going to work offstage, you would be better off just grabbing him out of his Spring recovery, but then again Sonic can just Uair to keep the ledge safe for him to return on, regardless Mirror Shield probably won't have too much if any use in this matchup.

When we're above you, we have no answer to counter your Uair, so use it, simple as that. Fair will trade hits with Nair, Nair is absolutely useless unless we try to gimp you with it, and Bair can be used as it is really disjointed... will probably trade hits at best if you space your atatcks right, or you might bat us because we didn't use Bair right... athe aerial combat seems even to me, neither one dominating. Oh hey by the way Uair is really disjointed, it can trade hits with most Dairs in game at worst, is used to juggle, and get Star K.O.s on you if you happen to be up high.

Don't be too commited to any of your moves unless you're absolutely sure they're going to hit, Sonic can cancel his approach and change them up to what the situation calls for, he can fake-you out and if performed right can get you into his grab-game which is awesome.

On the ground, Sonic has FTilt to space, UTilt to beat out most aerial approaches, USmash here and there for whatever reason (maybe even for teh lulz), DSmash was previously mentioned before, FSmash if it's going to hit you (it can be angled up or down BTW), Jab as a "GTFO out of mah face! " move, and dash attack to space/another method of approaching, and finally Spring will be used anywhere as another GTFO move when Jab isn't the right thing to use.

I think this matchup is even if you ask me.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Yeah, this has been discussed a few times recently. Decided even each time (50:50)

The fact is here that neither character has anything big over the other.

Sonic kinda kills Pit's arrow game as he has a few options to close the gap real quickly (that much is obvious)

Infact, I've just read Kinzer's post and more or less second it lol. Things to note are that Pit is a little bit lighter than Sonic (both horizontally and vertically) but not by a lot. Pit may kill at a lower percent, but Sonic can gimp Pit (note : not WILL) so that kinda evens that out, seeing as Pit will only probably be killing at about 20% lower max.

Pit's aerial game is Sonic's main problem, but with an aggressive aerial Pit Sonic's utilt is good as it is disjointed. On the ground, Pit is pretty much outranged by Sonic's ftilt.

I don't know, I just don't see how either side could claim an advantage.

 

[Kyuubi9t]

this can be a looong match, due to sonic's rather indirect fighting style. anyway, thanks for the match-up info sonic mains, i already decided this was 50-50 but the specific information is what really helps so its appreciated.

So yea, i basically agree with Kinzers main points in this matchup
~Arrows wont help much
~Aerial is pretty much even, go for Pit's U-air
~Mirror shield is useless here
~Edgeguard with the sword, not arrows
~Both chars have a hard time with KOs
~Sonic will do the approaching
~Both characters are low-mid weight
~Sonic's f-tilt will be the main spacing tool on ground
~Outprioritize the spindash, rather than try and spot dodge it
~Neither character has a single move that should be spammed to devastate the other, 50-50 matchup.

Ill add some comments of my own:
I like to use the infinite jab on sonic, i think it works really well and i believe the jab alone is enough to stop his spindash, and as you have the option to continue with it, is probably always a better option than a spot dodge, so yea Kinzer is right, you should just go for priority in that case. From what ive seen, this can be a LOOOONG match. Also, glide seems to be effective against sonic since he tends to have more of a linear approach than a versatile aerial one, so we can adjust the glide to get a clean swipe in. Gl-air is generally decent against sonic. Use arrows sparringly, this part should be obvious. Try not to spam the WoI, sonic will be there to clip the wings in an instant. No sonics use the Neutral B. Sonic's F-air has surprisingly good priority, look out for it. Dont get caught off guard by sonic's disjointed hitboxes on his F-smash and B-air, their range is deceptively long and their knockback worrisome for someone of pit's weight. Roll towards sonic if you predict a dash attack, and punish accordingly. No single move will win this match for pit, you will have to be actively adjusting to the situation as it unfolds, try not to give sonic any breathing room because he wins with the approach, and we win with the combos. Anyway, 50-50 thanks sonic mains

 

[Kinzer]

No problem I guess, thanks for being cool about this.

 

[Coffee™]

So does anything else need to be added to this?

 

[Kyuubi9t]

maniac.... how COULD you!? MK!?!?!?

 

[Bomber7]

hrmm Sonic = fast. Bow spam > Sonic. they both got pretty short fighting reach, I'm ignorant as to who has the faster fighting capability otherwise Sonic is totally out ranged.

 

[cj.Shark]

the difference is Pits attacks are actually faster as they come out faster and he has more reliable killing moves. also his attacks have more priority (f-smash priority is insane!). Also Pits aerials are all disjointed. furthermore pits d-air beats out so many of sonics options. On paper it would seem pit would win. but from matchup experience i think it goes 50:50

 

[Tenki]

Sonic kinda kills Pit's arrow game as he has a few options to close the gap real quickly (that much is obvious)
...

Pit's aerial game is Sonic's main problem, but with an aggressive aerial Pit Sonic's utilt is good as it is disjointed. On the ground, Pit is pretty much outranged by Sonic's ftilt.

this can be a looong match, due to sonic's rather indirect fighting style. anyway, thanks for the match-up info sonic mains, i already decided this was 50-50 but the specific information is what really helps so its appreciated.

So yea, i basically agree with Kinzers main points in this matchup
~Arrows wont help much
~Aerial is pretty much even, go for Pit's U-air
~Mirror shield is useless here
~Edgeguard with the sword, not arrows
~Both chars have a hard time with KOs
~Sonic will do the approaching
~Both characters are low-mid weight
~Sonic's f-tilt will be the main spacing tool on ground
...

hrmm Sonic = fast. Bow spam > Sonic. they both got pretty short fighting reach, I'm ignorant as to who has the faster fighting capability otherwise Sonic is totally out ranged.

lol @ reading previous posts.

How does Sonic's B-air fare against Pit's attacks? I remember requesting a hitbox/hurtbox 'test' from some Sonic mains to confirm whether or not Sonic's B-air was disjointed by having them use Marth's F-air and overlapping Sonic's B-air until it hurt Sonic. I think they got a little past inside his shoe/foot area. Not to mention that the hitbox itself does sort of extend past the foot animation.


And on a little note, Sonic's F-smash can go through and hit Pit out of side-B.
------------

the difference is Pits attacks are actually faster as they come out faster and he has more reliable killing moves. also his attacks have more priority (f-smash priority is insane!). Also Pits aerials are all disjointed. furthermore pits d-air beats out so many of sonics options. On paper it would seem pit would win. but from matchup experience i think it goes 50:50

I'm not too sure about Pit's frames since I believe the frame data you guys took were taken in 1/4 speed, but it probably feels about 50/50 because even though Pit might have faster startup time, on the other side of things, he's still fairly punishable by Sonic due to speed being used to reach ending lag or stop momentum when you'd otherwise have to commit if you want to hit.

 

[Coffee™]

maniac.... how COULD you!? MK!?!?!?

Blame Kupo

 

[Coffee™]

Sonicz Da Edgehawg!

Courtesy of Kinzer, with a bit of editing by yours truely.

This matchup is a bit different to most of Pit's matchups as he can't rely on his arrows as much due to Sonic's incredible ground speed and ability to punish the slightest bit of lag you have on a move. Sonic obviously will do the approaching in this matchup, but coupled with his speed and the possible mixups to throw you off your timing you'll have to be on top of your game to avoid being overwhelmed. Sonic is similar to Pit in some ways in that he has the same problems Pit is known for... probably some of the same benefits as well. Sonic has trouble killing people thanks to his lack of K.O. moves, and the ones that can be used will frequently be decayed to the point that any non-gimp kills from Sonic will be coming past 120% or more depending on character weight. Pit is in the mid-lighter half of the cast which means a fresh Fsmash or a Bair (Sonic's strongest kill moves) should KO you around mid to high 100s depending on your positioning on the stage. Pit has quite a bit more KO potential with his Fsmash, Ftilt, Dsmash, Glide Attack and Bair which for the most part KO, Sonic at slightly lower percentages and given their speed and the sheer amount of options you have it really shouldn't be too hard for you to KO the blue hedgehog as long as you can get the damage on him.

Pit also generally outranges Sonic (Pit outranging someone?, Don't hear that too often ) so you should use that to your advantage, however don't think you are a Marth or ZSS and get complacent. Sonic has average range and will outrange you in some situations, so be on the lookout for that. Offstage can go either way, but in this matchup it isn't recommended that you aim to strike down Sonic with arrows as Sonic can afford to airdodge them due to his ability to recover from just about any place off the screen, you'd be better off just getting out off the stage after him with your Fair, Bairs and Nairs to hit Sonic WOP him out. When it comes to you recovering, it's not unbelievable to see Sonic gimping you, especially if you're forced to use your WOI, but it shouldn't really come down to this with your multiple jumps, glide and airdodges. You also have the option of harassing Sonic with arrows while you're recovering to deter him from chasing you offstage. Take care to avoid being gimped from the spring from Sonic' s Up B especially if you're recovering from below with WOI.

Mirror Shield shouldn't see too much use in this matchup. There are a few little uses for it here and there but all together it won't be too useful here .You can use Mirror Shield to try and turn Sonic around the other way if he decides to go for the Spring recovery, but that's only going to work offstage and you would probably just be better off just grabbing him out of his Spring recovery, but Sonic can use Uair to keep the ledge relatively safe for him to return on so take care to look out for that.

You don't really have much to fear from Sonic in the way of aerials, when Sonic is above you, he has no answer to your Uair, so feel to abuse it in that situation. Sonic's Fair will trade hits with Pit's Nair at worst and Sonic's own Nair is generally useless unless they try to gimp you with it. Bair is the aerial you should mostly be concerned about as it has decent range and can score KOs if fresh.

In the end it simply comes down to don't be too commited to any of your moves unless you're absolutely sure they're going to hit, and you'll generally be fine.

Sonic's done.

 

[Riku00]

his legs look like spegetti in that picture.

 

[Luckay4Lyphe]

Oh geez, this guy is such a problem sometimes. Honestly I like going pikachu against sonic because it seems to me that Pit isn't quick enough to keep up with him.

Okay, so the good part is sonic is going to approach. The bad part is we don't know when! He will sit in spin dash as long as he wants. When he releases it it goes through our arrows so we can't just shoot an arrow and hope he stops because he's too fast. The main part of this matchup is reacting to his approaches so you have to be paying attention at all times.

Sonic can get some cool combos in the beginning percents, but when you're at killing percent things start getting repetitive. He's going to keep spin dashing until he can land a bair. Or he's going to dash backwards and then try to charge and fsmash. ITS ALL THEY DO LOL. Don't fall for stuff like that and you're golden really.

He grabs you and he's either gonna dthrow and then try a follow up or uthrow. If he dthrows don't tech it because he can punish any type of teching. It's better not to tech because then he has a greater distance to travel for the follow up and you'll be more ready for him. If he uses uthrow he's eventually if not immediately going to up b to chase you. DI to the far left or right and this isn't a problem. Don't try to beat his uair or bair with a dair because his uair is faster so you will end up dying. Just stay safe as possible.

Sometimes they cancel their spindash into a grab. This is okay usually since you will most likely be taking lest damage than a spindash attack to nair or bair. But if they go for the grab repeatedly just spotdodge or pivot grab them.

One thing sonic's love to do is airdodge, because he really doesn't have a safe landing. D1AOS, Speed, Kidd, Tommy Greenshirt, I've played them all and they airdodge a lot. Punish this with dash attack or just charge a smash. Literally you can dthrow and expect an airdodge if you empty short hop. His dair if not spaced well has crap ending lag kinda like TL so airdodge is their best option for landing.

Whatcha guys think about gimping sonic though? There's one thing you can do to him if he mispaces his up b trying to recover. If you just grab him at the edge after he uses up b and hold him to air release, he dies because it's just like Snake's cypher where he isn't in helpless state, but he can't up b again either.

How do you guys deal with his spin dash approach. I like to full hop dair it or throw out nair. Angel ring works sometimes, but he can hop over it if he sees it coming so it's bad most of the time.