Pit Matchup Discussion - Snake. (MT linked)

[chazparky]

Something that hasnt been brought up here, that i am not sure people know about, is the momentum cancel associated with the wind effect. I have seen this applied with Dededes suck and Pits WOI.

The Snake I play against is very good, so obviously i cannot use the grab cancel on his recovery most of the time. What he does, is sacrifice himself by using the C4 trick combined with the cypher to get back on the stage, something i have found very annoying. Even if i do catch him with the grab cancel, he can still C4 recovery out of it.

What i have learned to do is fly down to him, and when he detonates the C4, as he is exploding and on fire and flying up, do the WOI right next to him. It completely cancels whatever momentum he had going up, and pushes him back down. It is almost a sure fire way of killing snake when he is off of the edge, and works when he is on any percent. I have done this with Dededes suck as well, and it also worked. I have not tried it with any of the other wind effects, such as Mario's water, or Ness' psi magnet. It is pretty much the ultimate gimp. This is really important for edgeguarding.

 

[DemonicTrilogy]

Something that hasnt been brought up here, that i am not sure people know about, is the momentum cancel associated with the wind effect. I have seen this applied with Dededes suck and Pits WOI.

The Snake I play against is very good, so obviously i cannot use the grab cancel on his recovery most of the time. What he does, is sacrifice himself by using the C4 trick combined with the cypher to get back on the stage, something i have found very annoying. Even if i do catch him with the grab cancel, he can still C4 recovery out of it.

What i have learned to do is fly down to him, and when he detonates the C4, as he is exploding and on fire and flying up, do the WOI right next to him. It completely cancels whatever momentum he had going up, and pushes him back down. It is almost a sure fire way of killing snake when he is off of the edge, and works when he is on any percent. I have done this with Dededes suck as well, and it also worked. I have not tried it with any of the other wind effects, such as Mario's water, or Ness' psi magnet. It is pretty much the ultimate gimp. This is really important for edgeguarding.

Doing what you are suggesting is very risky, almost as risky as TL's Down air for a spike. What happens if it explodes before you reach him? What if you WoI the wrong time and you get hit in the WoI? What happens if his grenade ends up hitting him anyways (this would give him a huge upperhand at ledgeguarding.) I don't think this would be good to use...

 

[chazparky]

Oh trust me, it is not risky in the slightest. You only activate the WoI after the C4 has gone off, so worst case you just get hit by it and not gimped. The other thing is, you are above him, and you do not even need to be that good to be one length away when you use it. It is actually a completely flawless move that poses absolutely no risk to pit whatsoever. I will try to get a vid of it up soon, but i do not have the best recording devices.

As Snake is falling, you simply follow him down, using all the normal mindgames, and WoI him when he detonates the C4 and is flying past you. It is actually a reflection more than a momentum cancel. The higher his % the harder it is for him to recover from it.

If you do get hit in the WoI, it is as you activate it, so it doesnt get cancelled. I know that some Snakes use grenades instead of the C4 to recover to change things up a bit, but it works for grenades as well. It is actually pretty easy to keep just out of the range of the explosive while waiting for him to detonate.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think Snake has the advantage 6/4. Honestly, all that Pit has are his arrows. He can't even hit Snakes shield or a grenade will blow up. His tilts comletely outrange Pit and KO him earlier than Pits fsmash KOs Snake. In general: Attacking Snakes shield from close range is always bad, no matter how much the move pokes his shield. With a grenade in hand, he is always at an advantage. If you want to beat him you have to space very well, something Pit just isn't goo at - Snakes ftilt ruins it as it has more range, speed and priority than all of Pits moves together. Pit gets outcamped and has the disadvntage when it comes to KO people.

Hit + run is perhaps the best he can do. At any rate Pit should stay outside of Snakes tilt range somehow.

 

[Coffee™]

I think Snake has the advantage 6/4. Honestly, all that Pit has are his arrows. He can't even hit Snakes shield or a grenade will blow up.

In general: Attacking Snakes shield from close range is always bad, no matter how much the move pokes his shield. With a grenade in hand, he is always at an advantage.

It mostly depends on where Pit hits and with what move, If he is attacking with Nair or Uair frequently he can get a lot of trouble with grenades but Pit will mostly be looking to get Snake in the air before he really looks to rack up much damage and even though he can get blown up there the chances of it happening are going to decrease greatly in comparison to if Pit were to keep using grounded attacks.

If you want to beat him you have to space very well, something Pit just isn't good at

Actually, Pit doesn't have much choice when it comes to spacing. If you play Pit you have to learn to space really well or you're just going to get ***** by a bunch of characters anyway. The good thing about Pit is thats it's relatively easy to reset Pit's spacing in this matchup with his arrows whenever he feels too pressured.

- Snakes ftilt ruins it as it has more range, speed and priority than all of Pits moves together.

Utilt is faster and Nair is the same speed...lol but point taken.

Pit gets outcamped and has the disadvntage when it comes to KO people.

Pit doesn't get outcamped in this matchup. Snake can't pull and throw grenades, or plant mines or C4 faster than Pit can shoot volleys of arrows. Then there is also Pit's ledge camping which is pretty hard for Snake to get around.

Hit + run is perhaps the best he can do. At any rate Pit should stay outside of Snakes tilt range somehow.

Pretty true, thats mostly Pit's game anyway, its pretty hard to say you have to stay out of tilt range since your going to have to get up close to attck anyway, but once you can get Snake in the air and off the stage, it becomes a pretty easy game for Pit.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

It mostly depends on where Pit hits and with what move, If he is attacking with Nair or Uair frequently he can get a lot of trouble with grenades but Pit will mostly be looking to get Snake in the air before he really looks to rack up much damage and even though he can get blown up there the chances of it happening are going to decrease greatly in comparison to if Pit were to keep using grounded attacks.

How do you get somebody in the air you can't even hit safely?

Pit doesn't get outcamped in this matchup. Snake can't pull and throw grenades, or plant mines or C4 faster than Pit can shoot volleys of arrows. Then there is also Pit's ledge camping which is pretty hard for Snake to get around.

Camping =/= projectile spam but overall defense.

Getting outcamped means lacking the tools to pierce somebodys defense.

 

[Coffee™]

How do you get somebody in the air you can't even hit safely?

What do you mean hit safely? If you mean getting in Snakes range to hit him then obviously it is going to be hard. Very few characters outrange him to begin with. If you are refering to Pit hitting grenades, then it's just that. Pit actually has to hit the grenade for it to explode, even when Snake is holding it. Dtilt which put Snake in the air and will not explode the nade, neither will Dair if you space it well enough that you only hit the area above Snake's grenade...etc.

Camping =/= projectile spam but overall defense.

Getting outcamped means lacking the tools to pierce somebodys defense.

Well Snake has to approach to begin with, and although he has tools to penetrate Pit's defences it is not going to be a simply trivial task.


It's kind of funny the Pit boards always get way more discussion when the summary has already been written.

 

[CorruptFate]

How do you get somebody in the air you can't even hit safely?[/QUOTE}

Pit has several different ways of getting some1 into the air, most of his attacks have some sort of small up on them. Dtilt, Glide, Nair, Dair, Usmash, Utilt, Uair (a bit harder to land if they arn't in the air though) all of these and more will hit Snake or any1 into the air with enough time/space for Pit to attack him for a few hits at least.

 

[bludhoundz]

I think this matchup is slightly in Snake's favor.

His ftilt and utilt outrange Pit by a decent amount. He can pretty much just stand outside of Pit's range without being in any danger, but with the ability to attack.

If Pit moves in to attack, Snake can shield, walk away, pull out a nade, attack with a tilt, or spotdodge.

Now I'm not saying it's hopeless for Pit. It definitely isn't. He's just at a disadvantage at close range. At long range he's at an advantage -- Snake is forced to close the gap. However it's harder to reset the spacing to both characters being far away than it is to get close. Not only that, but Snake isn't really in danger of being put offstage or being KO'd when he's far from Pit. He's just going to be getting shot at. When Snake is close, Pit is going to eat more damage than he can dish out with arrows, and the knockback is pretty high, so he's more in danger of KOs.

Basically I am saying Snake's advantage up close is more important / prevalent than Pit's advantage from afar.

Pit also has an advantage when Snake is in the air, though. This is why I believe it's FAIRLY equal, but still slightly in Snake's favor simply because he weighs a lot more. Also his stage control is just nasty...

Also, I saw someone from the Pit boards in the Pit vs Dedede topic saying that the Marth boards were being really biased and underrating Pit a lot. I'm not going to take any sides here, nor do I want it to become an argument, but I don't think it's a good idea to just throw random flames into your posts. If you disagree with their analysis, that's fine, but I don't think you need to take shots at them for it.

 

[CorruptFate]

Also, I saw someone from the Pit boards in the Pit vs Dedede topic saying that the Marth boards were being really biased and underrating Pit a lot. I'm not going to take any sides here, nor do I want it to become an argument, but I don't think it's a good idea to just throw random flames into your posts. If you disagree with their analysis, that's fine, but I don't think you need to take shots at them for it.

QFT didn't see that but your right.

 

[Kyuubi9t]

i think a perfectly played snake would beat pit theoretically, and isnt that what a matchup discussion is about?? I mean, realistically, pit can do some good damage and isnt at much of a disadvantage if any if the cards are played correctly.... however i do feel that more effort is involved on Pit's side and therefore want to call it 55-45 for snake.

 

[LA180]

I...don't know what to say here about this match up. When I pwn snake, he comes back and pwns me with a F-tilt or a up-tilt. Pit is real light so he can kill me real early (if he can hit me), I deal like 120% of damage in just a few seconds but when he hits, ****it, it hurts! I say this is a 50/50. I would say its a 60/40 because Snake some pretty bad air manuverbility when it comes to recovery but alas...he has infinite jumps with the c-4 so I GUESS that can make up for it.

 

[napZzz]

How does Snake give Pit any trouble at all in the edgeguarding department... Snake can't go after Pit after Pit has been knocked offstage least Snake now become the victim and his moves like the Nikita Missle and the Motar are easily avoided.

its a matter of recovering back on stage without getting asploded or tilted, not getting hit off stage.