Pit Custom moveset discussion

[New_Dumal]

I created this thread because custom movesets looks to be a thing, even in competitive play.
I know this topic could be discussed in the Metagame discussion thread, but here I think we can discuss exactly this, what is a big topic. Other reason is that Pit custom movesets are different from D.Pit's custom, because how their Side special and Neutral Special are not exactly the same in not custom gameplay.

I played Pit for many and many hours until now, and while I think I'm playing better with Mario yet, I can say properly that the angel is my main character.
But, until yesterday (when I played tournament matches), I don't played with customs ON yet.
Now that I played a bit, in a tourney, I want to show us my choices and ask about yours, discuss this topic.

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Looking to the Neutral Special, the option I liked more is the Guiding Bow(3).
Because arrows are not giving much damage already, and control is everything, and can be a tool for mind games and shield damaging.

For the Side Special, the option I liked more is the Upperdash Arm (1).
Because I'm not sure about the Quickdash Arm knockback compared to Upperdash Arm. If is weaker, I would not change a kill move for anything.If the knockback is the same ammout, than the option 3 would provide a harder option to be punished (if miss) and a option to surprise the enemy.

For the Down Special, the option I liked more is the Guardian Orbitars(1).
I just love this move. I was worried with Pit losing the Mirror Shield from Brawl, but this is much better than I though it would be. So, why change it anyway ? I feel that Amplifying Orbitars would be better in specific MU's (Megaman, Samus, characters with powerfull projectiles...) and even the Impact Orbitars are great in certain MU's (L.Mac should suffer yet more against Pit's with this), but for default , I'm going with the default option.

For the Up Special, the option I liked more is the Breezy Flight(3).
I'm not sure about that yet.Power of Flight is also too good.
What makes me prefer this instead of Power of Flight(1) is that I'm taking too much stages spike with Pit's recovery.If you have to recovery from a medium distance and has no jumps, you have to create a distance from the ledge and then use the Power of Flight (to not bypass the ledge).
But when the opponent understand that this is your best option is just too easy to him stage spike you.
So, even if don't recovery too far, recovery you more safely... I'm always liked safe options to recovery.
--------

This are my choices, so what are yours ?Are you playing with custom moves ? The competitive scenario (that is different from for glory scene) have no reason until now to ban custom movesets (from what I heard).So discuss this would be nice for competitive players.

 

[LancerStaff]

Honestly haven't played with customs that much, but I don't see much value in them either.

Guiding Bow is nice, but I find it to turn too sharply and it's weaker speed, power, and range are just unappealing to me. Definitely his best custom, and it's even better on Pittwo because his bow has a bad habit of missing.

Amplifier Orbitars would be great for certain matchups, like you said. I'm too used to using the move as a shield though. Impact Orbitars are just bleh. Even against Mac real shields are nice to block his recoveries.

Breezy Flight... Hm, I dunno. You're basically not going to get hit with how fast you go, and the push is pretty weak. Might push away Fox's recovery or something, but I'm not seeing any potential.

 

[waddicto]

I main Pit but I am curious about Dark Pit's 3rd arrow special, guiding bow. I know it offers a much greater level of control compared to the regular Silver Bow, but how great is the control buff? Is it the same as Pit's Neutral 1 or 3? Considering that customs are being considered in tournament play, and the 3rd bow special could make Dark Pit higher than Pit, what's his guiding arrow like?

 

[meleebrawler]

I think it's in between the two, it controls better than Pit's default but worse than Pit's own
Guiding Arrow. I think it does slightly more damage compared to the other Guiding Arrow, though.

Edit: Basically, all of Dark Pit's neutral specials do more damage compared to Pit's counterparts.

 

[Furret]

This thread is meant to discuss Pits customs, Specifically:

• Their uses
• Who has the better version
• Research/lab Pit's and Dark Pit's custom moves

A section at the end will give a general description at the end of the post to fill any knowledge gaps in a custom move
1. Piercing Bow notes;
-Dark Pit deals 2% more with a fully charged Bow
-the larger hitbox is nice, but with out control and with the endlag of a normal arrow this arrow doesn't serve any function for setting up Pit.
2. Guiding Bow notes;
-Pitto deals an extra .5% damage both charged and uncharged, Pit has even more control of the arrow on the other hand
-The guiding Bow allows pit to use arrows more dynamically, but the fact they are slower makes them not as strong edge guarding even though you probably wont miss.
-Pit's increased control allows him to do a full 360 with the arrow and use the arrow as an approach option
-Dark Pit's increased damage, causes more hitstun and knockback allowing him to hit opponents from behind (or right on top of them) with an arrow and true combo into fast options
3. Interception arm notes;
-the normal launch angles of the move is the same for both characters, Pittoo deals .5% more damage
-this is an awful custom counter, your opponent has to be in a very small hitbox to be hit by this
-In theory this move is awesome at reading get up attacks from the ledge, using the armor to tank the hit and hitting back with a potential KO move
4. Quickdash Arm notes;
-changes Pit's launch angle to be like Dark Pit's, dark pit deals an extra .2% (wow <.<)
-this move still has it massive endlag, so even though the Pits carry themselves with their launch opponent they don't have much follow up options
-while ledge cancel is impossible to get good set distances for, pit can cancel this move when starting it in the air and hitting a ledge with his foot causing him to slide across the stage dependent on how much of the dash was left (this is possible in the regular version of the move but the slide can cover 3/4 of final destination with this version) he still has endlag though during that slide
-distance covered makes it effective at challenging those who edge guard
-will more then likely kill you if used on a platform to off a ledge
5. Striking Flight notes;
-Dark Pit deals an extra .5%
-there is no combo potential in this move that I have seen
6. Breezy Flight notes;
-no seen difference between characters atm
-has gimp potential
-has more so much endlag when hitting the ground it's kinda stupid
7. Impact Orbitars notes;
-no observed difference between characters
-blind spot, it doesn't hit right in front of bit
-has armor, Gimp tool
-I haven't really tested the uses of this one out yet
8. Amplifying orbitars notes;
-no observed difference between characters
-gimp potential of this move removed
-cause it's broken more easily, an opponent who hits it is doing you a favor.
-it works better as a custom counter then interception arm

Spoiler: Pit's/Dark Pit's customs

Pit customs

Dark Pit customs

Personal opinions

1. both versions suck :D
2. guiding bow feels more like preference, however the more unique options of Pit might be better then the damage increase of Dark Pit's version
3. If it could be used for catching a get up attack (haven't tested this yet) then dark pit would over all (and make this custom usable) better version kill early as 80%, rather then pits 110%
4. turning the move into a more recovery orientated move doesn't benefit one Pit over the other but Dark pit does have that extra .2% The niche options of the move are also fun, but I really don't see the practical implications of them except safely challenging edge guarding
5. I see no use in this move, Dark pit's is better thanks to that .5%
6. the gimp option would be nice to have back should you choose a difference orbitar, but the landing lag of this after from being in helpless is crazy
7. I still need to work with this one more
8. really just better then the standard orbitars in my opinion. they really are better when they break. although probably less useful against multihit moves

So this is all I have been able to observe and find on Pit's customs. If you have any additional notes\opinions on these moves please feel free to share.

 

[Makorel]

There is a difference between the arrows of Pit and Dark Pit's Piercing Bow. Pit's arrows will KO at around 180% while Dark Pit's are "much better" because they KO at around 160%.

It would be nice to get a side by side comparison of the hitstun between the different Guiding Bow arrows at early and high percents. Same thing with the control difference because I didn't even think there was one when I tested them out. I think these arrows are really good and knowing whether the hitstun/control difference is a negligable amount or not would be useful. I've been trying to use them with @ O1DsLeNdYwHiTe 's full jump arrow tech so I can potentially land attacks and grabs at the same time among other possibilities although the timing seems to be just a little more strict than the default arrows and it doesn't seem to work consistently with online due to the extra input delay unless you jump twice so it's hard for me to practice using them.

If you haven't tried Impact Orbitars yet I suggest you give them a whirl. As far as disjoints go this one is probably the largest in the game and they have a lot of vertical and horizontal reach so if you space well you'll out-prioritize most aerial attacks that aren't also projectiles and catch people who are too far out for your bow to connect. On the ground they have super armor that comes out I believe on frame 1 so you can use it as a "get off me" button. The damage isn't too good but the angle and hitstun they give out is fantastic. There are some characters that I didn't think were gimpable that I was able to gimp with these things. Basically any character that's not Pit himself, Lucario or The Villager who understands Impact Orbitars will probably think twice before trying to do a ledge drop jump attack at mid-high percents lest they get a face full of orbitar and plunge into the abyss.

 

[Furret]

There is a difference between the arrows of Pit and Dark Pit's Piercing Bow. Pit's arrows will KO at around 180% while Dark Pit's are "much better" because they KO at around 160%.

I'll check it out
Edit: the knockback isn't increase the charged arrow from dark pit just deals 2% more

It would be nice to get a side by side comparison of the hitstun between the different Guiding Bow arrows at early and high percents. Same thing with the control difference because I didn't even think there was one when I tested them out.

do a full circle with both arrows, you'll notice because Pit's arrow should make a tighter/smaller loop then Dark pit's.
I can't get a recording but the amount of knockback/hitstun on dark Pit's guiding really does feel greater then Pit's

If you haven't tried Impact Orbitars yet I suggest you give them a whirl. As far as disjoints go this one is probably the largest in the game and they have a lot of vertical and horizontal reach so if you space well you'll out-prioritize most aerial attacks that aren't also projectiles and catch people who are too far out for your bow to connect. On the ground they have super armor that comes out I believe on frame 1 so you can use it as a "get off me" button. The damage isn't too good but the angle and hitstun they give out is fantastic. There are some characters that I didn't think were gimpable that I was able to gimp with these things. Basically any character that's not Pit himself, Lucario or The Villager who understands Impact Orbitars will probably think twice before trying to do a ledge drop jump attack at mid-high percents lest they get a face full of orbitar and plunge into the abyss.

I'll read the frame data again then, I don't remember super armor, but I'll check it out. I don't know If I'll get to play around with orbitars today, but I'll get to them at some point.

 

[Makorel]

I'll check it out
Edit: the knockback isn't increase the charged arrow from dark pit just deals 2% more

I double checked just to be sure. In Training if Mario is standing in the middle of FD he dies to Pit's arrow at 185% and Dark Pit's arrow at 166%.

Also the orbitars' super armor is just on the ground I believe. Last I checked the frame data had Impact Orbitars marked as an unknown substate but it's pretty easy to test for in game and I actually discovered it by accident just fiddling around with them.

 

[Furret]

I double checked just to be sure. In Training if Mario is standing in the middle of FD he dies to Pit's arrow at 185% and Dark Pit's arrow at 166%.

Also the orbitars' super armor is just on the ground I believe. Last I checked the frame data had Impact Orbitars marked as an unknown substate but it's pretty easy to test for in game and I actually discovered it by accident just fiddling around with them.

the reason it's killing earlier isn't more KB growth but more damage 2% more damage on a move of the difference 11% and 13%, will have the move that does 13% damage kill 13\15 earlier then the 11% move (so 185 * 13\15 = 160.3, not perfectly exact, but the equation I use for knockback is a rough estimate). So the damage cap is just higher, not the knock back

Still haven't checked orbitars yet
Edit: I did some preliminary checking on the orbitars
Super armor is frame 4, Super armor is removed when the hitboxes appear. I've got nothing else I can find armor wise on the move

 

[Makorel]

Oh I get what you're saying now about the damage and knock back. Interesting stuff.

 

[Kibzu~]

Imo. The only useful ones are the Breezing flight and the guidance bow. The guidance bow allows regular pit to Approach with his arrows. Similarly to Falco in melee with his lazers. With Breezing flight. because pits recovery is so linear; its easy to gimp. The Gust of wind should stop it.

 

[Furret]

Imo. The only useful ones are the Breezing flight and the guidance bow. The guidance bow allows regular pit to Approach with his arrows. Similarly to Falco in melee with his lazers. With Breezing flight. because pits recovery is so linear; its easy to gimp. The Gust of wind should stop it.

I think we need to test out breezy more, it takes a large hit in recovery and I think quickdash would do a better job of a recovery that can't be gimped cause it still has armor (I'll check right now and add an edit below), but the D special customs should definitely be looked into. Amplifying has the option to take an attack break the move and have no ending lag, while giving up the windbox. It's also a stronger reflector, but I'm not sure if that's worth too much

Edit: If I read the data correctly, frame 26 armor begins and lasts for 17 frames on quickdash

 

[Kibzu~]

Remember you can switch them depending on the person or character you are vsing. you dont have to stick with one set all the time for a custom move Orbitars is MU based hella alot. EG : For mac: someone with an easy gimpable recovery; you want that gimping wind hitbox.
But against a falcon/diddy you might want the hitbox on orbitars for OOS usage. And the Amplified could be used for a character that is projectile based.
For the side b. i want my kill power when im desperate for the kill. Quick dash is way too punishable and dodgy aswell. Going past the opponent. Breezy Flight is better then the normal flight if they are the same distance as a good pit would never land with the up b and pits up b is too edge - guardable. For the arrows. Guidance seems good but they are hard to control surprisingly and the traveling idea doesnt seem too bad but you need to position them to run with them or they will be infront

 

[Furret]

For the side b. i want my kill power when im desperate for the kill. Quick dash is way too punishable and dodgy aswell. Going past the opponent. Breezy Flight is better then the normal flight if they are the same distance as a good pit would never land with the up b and pits up b is too edge - guardable.

quick dash will never kill anyways. Upperdash is already a fairly easy move to bait and punish and the armor only lasts halfway though the dash. I mean it is a kill option, but I feel it's much safer to use it as a recovery move and stick to Fthrow for desperate late kills.

For the arrows. Guidance seems good but they are hard to control surprisingly and the traveling idea doesnt seem too bad but you need to position them to run with them or they will be infront

I feel like arrows are preference.
and Even piecing would help in the rosa match up (too bad evo will be a custom rosalina showcase though)

Remember you can switch them depending on the person or character you are vsing. you dont have to stick with one set all the time for a custom move Orbitars is MU based hella alot. EG : For mac: someone with an easy gimpable recovery; you want that gimping wind hitbox.

I wonder if you could use breezy for gimps though

 

[Kibzu~]

Forget breezy. its half the flight lol. Breezy could be for gimps but still. i like my range. Ye i prefer normal side b. Pit has an OP recovery so its un-needed. Piercing and rosa.. didnt think of that. Good idea lol.

 

[ZephyrZ]

I've found Impact Orbitars to be good for getting opponents off stage.
After that, it also has a lot of gimping potential.

 

[Kibzu~]

Imo. They are a great OOS option covering behind+infront. Im gonna make a one minute video on pits guidance arrows soon as ive found some broken use for them lol

 

[Rabspat]

Today I've been fooling around with the 3222 set-up with Pit, and I've found myself to like it a lot. He loses a recovery and defense options, but I find this helps his offensive game noticeably and nets him earlier KOs... which I feel he desperately needs as a character. Not to say he doesn't have any other viable movesets, but as a straight up offense oriented build this seems to work rather exceptionally.

Neutral B: Guiding Bow gives Pit set-ups that just weren't there before, and if used correctly the arrows are typically harder for the opponent to deal with. They do a little bit less damage, but it's honestly not a big deal if you're connecting with more of them. The attack also has a bit more start-up on it... but the bow is already not the sort of move you should be using too much if the opponent is within range to punish.

Side B: Maybe it's not a popular opinion, but I find the increased KO strength of Interception Arm is more important than anything the standard Upperdash arm offers. The standard move is so easy to see coming and is super unsafe anyway, so limiting the range on it is no big deal to me. I don't feel like use in recovering is any big loss either. If used by the ledge, Pit will still grab on. Nonetheless, if you use this move and you're not well above ledge height, you will die. But it still has its super armor in the air. Was able to survive Donkey Kong's fair with this thing.

Up B: With Striking Flight, you do lose some of Pit's recovery angles. But even with that, his recovery is still better than most. If the attack is landed properly, this move can gimp or stage spike opponents. It has more start-up, so it's easier for the opponent to see coming and intercept... but there's a lot more at risk for them as they try to stop you, since Pit's hitbox doesn't just disappear after takeoff like the in-game description makes it sound. He still moves very fast, and the move is pretty strong with a good knockback angle. While fooling around I found that if Rosalina is standing by the ledge, the move KOs at around 105% without rage. Not that you'd ever use the move for something like that, but just to demonstrate how powerful the knockback on this move can be.

Down B: Believe me, I was apprehensive about this one considering how great the Guardian Orbitars are as a tool for getting back to the stage... but the Impact Orbitars are a beastly tool with ton of potential. It's got some pretty heft start-up on it, but there's super armor on that start-up on the grounded version. With that said, whether you're on the ground or in the air, the knockback angle on this thing is frighteningly horizontal. On stage it won't kill until higher percents, but land this thing off stage and your opponent is toast in many cases. It'll either send them straight into the blast zone, make recovery impossible, or put them in a position where you can continue to pressure their recovery. The hitbox on this thing is enormous on both sides of Pit. Although it does need to be said that this thing is horribly, horribly unsafe on block. You will be punished if you miss on-stage. There's also the fact that if you're not careful with your off-stage use of this thing, you're going to reach the bottom blast zone before you can do anything to stop your descent.

 

[Kibzu~]

That setup deforestation Isn't that good , the interception arm is the worsy Choice out of them all . You lose the range of the hit and the neutral side b is too obvious and slow. Impact orbits are defo MU situational eg characters with no projectiles. Striking is a fine choice and guidance. Guidance is a bit hard to make magic with but it's possible.

 

[ShortcutButton]

Say, why don't you all post your thoughts on the standard custom moveset project thread?

 

[Furret]

Say, why don't you all post your thoughts on the standard custom moveset project thread?

Because foremost I am here to research and find something new, not create a usable build

 

[Kibzu~]

^ tbh i dont like using Pinned Threads too. They are never noticed if its a discussion.

 

[ShortcutButton]

Because foremost I am here to research and find something new, not create a usable build

If you're worried about the build being too specific, then you need not worry, there are 6 of them. Pit needs more voices for the project as well: some characters' custom threads reached 100, while ours has only 5. It's disadvantageous for only one guy to have input on the custom project, no matter how many credentials he has on the matter. Once I get the 3ds version (soon) I will write on that thread.

 

[Furret]

If you're worried about the build being too specific, then you need not worry, there are 6 of them. Pit needs more voices for the project as well: some characters' custom threads reached 100, while ours has only 5. It's disadvantageous for only one guy to have input on the custom project, no matter how many credentials he has on the matter. Once I get the 3ds version (soon) I will write on that thread.

I'm talking about learning and working on the specifics of a move versus creating a move set. Why create a move set when I don't know trash about the move or it's variations?
For example:
I'm not here to say

• use guiding arrows

I'm here to say

• I found there is a potential in using guiding arrows as a combo starter
• what are my practical implications?
• how hard is it to set up/where can I set it up?
• what can I combo into?
• is it easier to do with one Pit's variation over the other?

While yes half of this conversation is which customs to use that is meant to be a result of the process I want to have happen. Which is discovering what the customs can do and what options they open up

 

[O1DsLeNdYwHiTe]

The guiding-bow is...interesting. It has a lot of creative potential, which lured me to toy with it a bit more. It's probably not as safe or consistent as utilizing the default arrows, but if bestowed upon the right player, I foresee some scary and flashy shenanigans.

 

[Furret]

The guiding-bow is...interesting. It has a lot of creative potential, which lured me to toy with it a bit more. It's probably not as safe or consistent as utilizing the default arrows, but if bestowed upon the right player, I foresee some scary and flashy shenanigans.

I'll fully agree from what I noticed a well placed guiding arrow can combo into anything which is a scary thought for a character who is known to have problems landing kill moves

 

[Makorel]

It's taken me a while to have this epiphany but the lack of control on Dark Pit's guiding arrows may matter more than I thought. If you fire an arrow at the apex of a full jump you will land without landing lag. With Pit you can send the arrow in a half circle motion underneath and back towards Pit and then run with the arrow now going in the opposite direction from which you fired it (the easiest way to do this is to have the control stick start at when the arrow fires and circle around). With Dark Pit you can't do this; the turning on the arrow just isn't tight enough to keep it from avoiding the ground or sending it high enough so it can circle around means it disappears a little after it reaches Dark Pit. I can't really say how much this will matter in the long run but when the whole point of these arrows is to be able to throw out a hurtbox you can move to any position then I would probably want the arrows that can do that job better, not the the arrows that have more hitstun but will miss in certain situations that the more controllable arrows will land in.

Edit: looks like all this info was already in the OP. I do have one more factoid though: Pit's arrows travel faster than Dark Pit's, so the reason they turn better is more likely because they can change position faster and not because Pit has an inherently increased control over them. Dark Pit also releases his arrow later at full charge, probably because of that extra 0.5% damage.

 

[Furret]

@ meleebrawler is right about control, the power is .5% more both charged and uncharged (at least from what I noticed)