Pikachu needs a buff (ESAMvs Zero)

[Deleted member]

People just hop on the bandwagon of "this character needs to be nerfed", then pick up the next top tier character after said nerf. There were not as many sheik mains and no one gave a sh** about her until diddy got nerfed. If Sheik gets killed with nerfs, people are gonna play Luigi and Rosalina, then eventually Pikachu.

It was a popular opinion that Sheik was just as good as Diddy, with the only caveat that Diddy was more of an easy button. But I agree with your previous post about Rosalina being solely represented by Dabuz.

 

[Saviorr]

Angiance seems to be the only oneone here who understands Pikachu. Everyone else just needs more Pikachu practice, why buff a top tier?
If people here think Pikachu has bad kill options, which characters have good kill options?

 

[Tenretsujin10]

YEAH, NERF PIKACHU. make him bigger/fatter so his hitbox is easier to hit :3 tired of my grabs whiffing pikachu after he B-airs...

 

[Antonykun]

Angiance seems to be the only oneone here who understands Pikachu. Everyone else just needs more Pikachu practice, why buff a top tier?
If people here think Pikachu has bad kill options, which characters have good kill options?

dude Theres like one guy in this thread who actually wants pikachu buffed (I mean don't get me wrong everyone needs more practice)

 

[KawKa]

Pikachu is fine tbh there are just some mu pikachu can't win so easily I find mario and yoshi the most annoying to deal with they say the villager mu is bad but I haven't experienced a good villager yet.

 

[Protassium]

Pika is obviously one of the best characters in the game, with lots of great ways of racking up damage like Shiek.
They both lack KO options for a reason. Sakurai intended it this way because characters like pika and shiek would be too good with a lot of kill options. You also have to take into consideration that ZeRo is by far WAY better than Esam. I am not saying Esam is bad, but ZeRo is just godlike.

 

[Gibbs]

Pika is obviously one of the best characters in the game, with lots of great ways of racking up damage like Shiek.
They both lack KO options for a reason. Sakurai intended it this way because characters like pika and shiek would be too good with a lot of kill options. You also have to take into consideration that ZeRo is by far WAY better than Esam. I am not saying Esam is bad, but ZeRo is just godlike.

I've mentioned this on Reddit, but just because Zero is dominating the tournament scene doesn't mean he's lightyears ahead of the second tier of contenders. ESAM, Nairo, Dabuz, Larry, Mr. R, MVD, Ally, etc all have the ability to take a set or 2 off of Zero in tournament. Yes Zero is better and has more game knowledge than anyone right now, but he's not WAY better than any of these people. It's probably only 65-35 matchup in Zero's favor. Zero is 2006 Roger Federer.

 

[JayWon]

I don't even think Pikachu is top 5, but he doesn't need buffs. He does have a killing problem though. If you were watching ESAM's matches in the top 8, a lot of his kills came from uthrow thunder. If that's your most effective kill setup then something is wrong. In his set against Larry's Fox, which is apparently one of Fox's hardest match ups, Larry pretty much just stayed in shield when he was at kill percent making him live forever and ESAM got 2 stocked because of that. Larry even recovered from off stage just fine because he knew how to avoid Pikachu's edge guarding. Edge guarding Fox isn't as simple as people say it is. At one point during the match, Larry was below the stage trying to recover with upb. So Pikachu can just bair offstage and easy gimp, right? Nope! Fox's upb beat out Pikachu's bair and Fox recovered safely. A lot of other characters would've gotten the kill. When even Pikachu's edge guarding isn't reliable, which is supposed to be his best aspect, something is terribly wrong. The reason ESAM did so well with Pikachu is because ESAM is just an amazing player. He even got a win using Samus which was his only win on Larry that set.

Hey @ Pikabunz ! We talked before and I have to apologize for disagreeing with you then. I agree with you now and can say I overrated Pikachu. I now too think Pikachu barely makes top 5. He's just a solid A Tier character. Not A+ or A- and nowhere near S tier. I definitely noticed the inconsistencies in gimping people with b-air and I really want proper hitboxes for that move. Sometimes Falcon grabs my b-air with his Up-B, and sometimes it beats Fox's up b and sometimes it doesn't. Idk maybe Pikachu has a hurtbox directly in the center and has stronger priority hitboxes on the side or something. Still a great move nevertheless.

But anyways,

yeah.... Pikachu just lacks a boxing game. I feel like Pikachu just lacks range in general. Or more specifically the moves with good range is just not supported with good enough frame data. D-tilt is the best bet for spacing on the ground with range but it just feels too slow sometimes (frame 7) when against characters with really good jabs. Jab is frame 2 but has no range/priority whatsoever. I'm having trouble finding an answer to get in on players who play very safe and stick to their jab 1/2's except like rolling behind them but that ain't safe.
F-air is a great move, but it isn't amazing. Depending on the match up (against top tiers) F-air is either too slow (frame 10), outranged, or out-prioritized (or a combination of any). F-air is by no means useless and I would be spoiled to want any more buffs on Pikachu; Pikachu's f-air definitely has the potential to reward but it's not a Godly move that brings me an abundance of confidence. In short, Pikachu just has to work very very hard. At upper levels he wins because the player is really good not because Pikachu is REALLY good.

Pikachu is really good but not REALLY good.

lol thank GOD Pikachu's dash attack kills eventually... I still love Pikachu because he has a lot of options/mixups and lots of creative ways to play him. I overrated Pikachu and I underrated Shiek/Rosalina/Luigi/Ness/Fox/Falcon/Olimar/Rob.

 

[JayWon]

Wish Pika can crawl underneath needles.

 

[Saviorr]

I'm surprised that people think Pikachu isn't at least top 3. He's way faster than every character but Sheik and has an Up smash that's almost as good as Fox's.
When Pikachu stops being able to combo a character from a throw Pikachu can use a thunder jolt to easily pressure the character into a punish. Thunder Jolt seems as useful as Luigi's fireball but Luigi's might be a little better.

 

[Kimiono]

If a char can't defeat sheik it doesn't men he needs a buff it men's that sheik sadly needs a nerv after all I think pika with customs can reck sheik (infinite)

Have fun smashing

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

true....maybe a slight nerf that makes her recovery easier to punish/worse.
it would be fair because ever since BF, her recovery is one of the best and difficult to punish, whereas before, quite easy too.

 

[Gibbs]

@ Pikabunz I'm wondering what your top 5 are if pika isn't in it. Sure we have Sheik/Rosa/WeeGee, but who else. Ness? Sonic? ZSS? Fox? I can maybe see Ness, but I think Pika's match up spread is better than any of these characters.

 

[Kimiono]

@ Gibbs I don't think sonic but call me crazy it's ok.
I think peach is top 3 maybe the best you can argue with me but she has an easy infinit (it's easier to get staring than pikas)
She has 3 zero to deaths and she can Easley brake your shield also she can float over needles and with that she is 4 me the best as I sad U can argue with me but I listed a lot of things

 

[Pikabunz]

@ Pikabunz I'm wondering what your top 5 are if pika isn't in it. Sure we have Sheik/Rosa/WeeGee, but who else. Ness? Sonic? ZSS? Fox? I can maybe see Ness, but I think Pika's match up spread is better than any of these characters.

It's really hard to choose a top 5, but any of the characters you listed could be top 5. I feel they have more favorable match ups than Pikachu.

 

[Gibbs]

It's really hard to choose a top 5, but any of the characters you listed could be top 5. I feel they have more favorable match ups than Pikachu.

I respect that. I think that when a stable-ish tier list emerges after the patches stop whether Pika winds up anywhere from #2-#8 on the tier list is a bit of dice roll. I think he's top 4, but that's just like my opinion man.

With regard to the match-up spread, I think that Luigi and Shiek are Pika's only match-ups that are definitively negative. Ness, Yoshi, and Mario are all effectively 50-50, but all might swing against Pika slightly as people learn the match-up better. Pika probably has a positive match up against all the other high/top tiers. Besides Sheik, I think Pika has arguably the best match-up spread. And none of his hard match ups are as bad for him as say Rosalina v Ness or Luigi v Sonic.

 

[JayWon]

I'm surprised that people think Pikachu isn't at least top 3. He's way faster than every character but Sheik and has an Up smash that's almost as good as Fox's.
When Pikachu stops being able to combo a character from a throw Pikachu can use a thunder jolt to easily pressure the character into a punish. Thunder Jolt seems as useful as Luigi's fireball but Luigi's might be a little better.

Luigi's fireballs are absolutely insane.

-Get hit/shield fireball >> get grabbed comboed into 50%
-Get hit/shield 2nd fireball >> get grabbed add another 20%
-Get hit/shield 3rd fireball >> get grabbed add another 15%
-Get hit/shield 4th fireball >> get grabbed get killed by tornado, b-air, b-throw

Obviously exaggerated but pretty much Luigi kills you with four fireballs.


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And Pikachu does not rack up damage IMO. His damage output is fairly low in a balanced manner.

I think Ness and Luigi damage output is absolutely insane and a bit questionable. They hit as hard if not HARDER than heavy hitters! For example here are some data for your convenience judge for yourself:

(consider the priority and how fast Ness/Luigi aerials and how little cooldown it has)

Ness:
N-air 7%, 11% (clean)
F-air 7%
B-air 8%, 15% (clean)
U-air 13%
D-air 10%,12%

Luigi:
N-air 12% (why..?)
F-air 9%
B-air 14%
U-air 11%
D-air 10%

Ike:
N-air 9% (clean), 6% (late)
F-air 12%
B-air 14%
U-air 11%
D-air 15%

Charizard:
N-air 10% (flame), 7% (tail)
F-air 11% (early, clean arm), 12% (clean tip)
B-air 10% (body), 13% (tail), 15% (flame)
U-air 13%
D-air 14% (clean), 8% (late)

Donkey Kong
N-air 11% (clean), 8% (late)
F-air 16%, 15% (sweetspot), 13% (sourspot)
B-air 13% (clean), 8% (late)
U-air 13%
D-air 16% (sweetspot) 13% (sourspot)

Marth
N-air 2%/3% (hit 1), 6%/8% (hit 2)
F-air 7%/10%
B-air 9%/12%
U-air 9%/12%
D-air 11% (blade), 13% (non-meteor tip), 14% (meteor tip)

 

[Saviorr]

Pikachu might not rack up as much damage as Luigi but Pikachu makes up for low damage attacks by having quick attack. Even Zero has said it's really hard to punish. Pikachu can use quick attack to avoid a lot of damage and to extend combos, it's generally a very safe and almost broken option.

 

[Hoenn]

When I watched ESAM vs ZeRo, all I saw was ESAM getting outplayed. Pikachu is just fine as a character, ESAM will get ZeRo back and has the ability to beat ZeRo, pikachu is not the problem