Pikachu needs a buff (ESAMvs Zero)

[SmashChu]

Watching this match at CEO 2015, there were time when ESAM should have killed Zero, but Pikachu's attacks are far to weak to do so. For instance, in the first set ESAM hit Zero with a forward Smash on FD t 110%.......and it didn't kill him. Another instance was when ESAMhit Zero with a close thunder near the top of FD and it didn't kill him at over 120%. I di a test on the former and Marth can kill Sheik at that percent with a sourspot forward smash. I think the team needs to look at Pikachu in the next patch.

Not saying Zero won because of that, but that maybe these should be looked at for buffing Pikachu. Also, damages are from memory so I may be mistaken. Thoughts?

 

[busken]

Pikachu is overrated imo. It's only his mobility, frame data, and thunder jolt that keep him high tier. He has no guranteed kill confirms and lacks combo potential outside of 70% excluding u-throw thunder, and up smash thunder, the first not guranteed at all at high level play, and the second requiring a read. As a pikachu player it really saddens me.

EDIT: in all fairness though esam kept fairing zero's sheild and kept getting shield grabbed.

 

[Angiance]

Pikachu is just fine as he is-any more strength and he'd be too strong

Our U.Smash comes out of NOWHERE and is an excellent standalone KO attack

F.Smash's sweet spot actually hits VERY HARD-it's just impractical due to the startup

Out Thunder gimps offstage players better than many other attacks in this game...

Like, how can you say Pikachu needs buffs considering how far ESAM actually placed with Pikachu-plus, ZeRo is just very, very, very, very, very good at Smash Bros 4

So...yeah~

 

[busken]

Pikachu is just fine as he is-any more strength and he'd be too strong

No, pikachu needs more kill confirm. Despite, his edge guarding tools back air, quick attack, tj, thunder, edge guarding is still difficult. Brawl pikachu with no chain grabs and no QAC would be better.

 

[Angiance]

Uh, no-he can KO just fine...Like I said, ZeRo is just super good at Smash Bros 4 and ESAM placed very high at CEO with only Pikachu

No need for buffs

 

[carlos11]

Pikachu lacks finishing power. He's also relatively slower and deals less damage than the rest of the top tiers.

However, he is well balanced. I'd prefer the people in charge of making tweaks in the name of balance to not touch Pikachu as it would most likely result in a negative change. Pikachu is quite simply perfect just the way he is. His only problem is not so much that he is underpowered, but rather that other characters are overpowered. Namely, Sheik and Rosalina.

 

[Antonykun]

Tbh saying pikachu needs buffs because ESAM lost to ZeRo is like saying ZSS needs buffs because Nairo lost to ZeRo
Pikachu is desinged to be a character who makes up for the weakness of his attacks with high mobility which matters very little because Sheik's needles are bs unreactable win buttons
Pikachu is already an amazing character theres no need to make him better

 

[SmashChu]

Tbh saying pikachu needs buffs because ESAM lost to ZeRo is like saying ZSS needs buffs because Nairo lost to ZeRo
Pikachu is desinged to be a character who makes up for the weakness of his attacks with high mobility which matters very little because Sheik's needles are bs unreactable win buttons
Pikachu is already an amazing character theres no need to make him better

Its not so much that ESAM lost. Its that a lot of times he should have killed Zero but didn't because Pikachu's move was too weak. This isn't an air attack or a throw. I'm talking about a his forward smash and thunder, two of Pikachu's strongest attacks, against a light character (Sheik's weight is 85) close to the blast zones.

 

[Antonykun]

Its not so much that ESAM lost. Its that a lot of times he should have killed Zero but didn't because Pikachu's move was too weak. This isn't an air attack or a throw. I'm talking about a his forward smash and thunder, two of Pikachu's strongest attacks, against a light character (Sheik's weight is 85) close to the blast zones.

again Pikachu is designed to be very weak power wise because he can be literally everywhere he pleases and can rack up damage like its no ones business should you give him a power buff you are removing one of his few intentional weaknesses

 

[Angiance]

What he said ^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[SmashChu]

again Pikachu is designed to be very weak power wise because he can be literally everywhere he pleases and can rack up damage like its no ones business should you give him a power buff you are removing one of his few intentional weaknesses

First of all, this has not been the case in the last three games where both these moves were potent. Making these moves stronger is bring them up to standard, not giving the character unnecessary power. Its hard to hit someone with thunder (on Pikachu). And his forward Smash leaves him very open. Having it be stronger justifies them. Keep in mind that Pikachu's sourspot is worse than Marth's.

 

[Uncle Honey]

again Pikachu is designed to be very weak power wise because he can be literally everywhere he pleases and can rack up damage like its no ones business should you give him a power buff you are removing one of his few intentional weaknesses

Hence why he benefits the most from customs amongst the entire cast.

 

[Angiance]

First of all, this has not been the case in the last three games where both these moves were potent. Making these moves stronger is bring them up to standard, not giving the character unnecessary power. Its hard to hit someone with thunder (on Pikachu). And his forward Smash leaves him very open. Having it be stronger justifies them. Keep in mind that Pikachu's sourspot is worse than Marth's.

Thunder literally gimps opponents and absurd percents and also deals over 25% damage if it's comboed into-F.Smash KOs very well at it's sweetspot around the edge

U.Smash KOs very well considering it's speed

Maybe you're just in need of training, complaining over his power won't make you any better of a fighter

 

[Pikabunz]

Fsmash is extremely powerful and it doesn't really leave him that open. Only fast characters and power shielding can punish it consistently. Usmash is also another good kill move that kills light characters around 90-110%. But you're right that Pikachu has a killing problem because it can be hard to land these moves. If your opponent just shields you can't really do anything but try to uthrow and thunder which is also really hard to land.

@ Angiance Thunder isn't really that amazing for gimping. It's very telegraphed and situational, also it leaves you in a bad position if you miss. Using fair, bair, or dair are much more reliable for gimping.

 

[Angiance]

Thunder, if it spikes offstage, is very effective-I only stated that -it can gimp early- not the amount of difficulty coming with trying to land it

Also, N.Air and U.Air are way better offstage since they set up frame advantages better and hit all around

 

[Pikabunz]

I wouldn't say those are way better, but they can be used to gimp. Uair has it be hit with the front part to even be effective for gimping otherwise you're just going to be hitting them up higher.

 

[busken]

I want brawl thunder back...

 

[Jmacz]

Hence why he benefits the most from customs amongst the entire cast.

After today I'm pretty sure it's safe to say he doesn't, I don't remember ESAM going for a single HSB in top 8 today other than recovering. I'd guess that means unless he can guarantee it, it's to unsafe of a move to use at a high level. I'm pretty sure he used the normal T-Jolt as well.

I'm not sure if Pikachu needs a buff or not, but if he did I agree F-Smash would be the best thing to buff. Keep it the same frame wise but just increase the knock back a little. It would also be interesting if they made nair more of a reliable kill move near the ledge, that may make it a bit to OP though.

 

[Macchiato]

LMAO TOP TIER GETTING BUFFED


HAAAAAH GET OUT

 

[busken]

Man buff or no buff all i know is that killing is often a problem. Which is why are edge guarding game needs to be so refined, which is not easy at all.

 

[Antonykun]

LMAO TOP TIER GETTING BUFFED


HAAAAAH GET OUT

as unnecesarily sassy as this post is (remember this isn't the zelda social ) I completely agree with macchi here Pikachu is a strong contender for the second best character after sheik and theres no reason to give any buffs to him ESPECIALLY if it is to power up one of his weaknesses

After today I'm pretty sure it's safe to say he doesn't, I don't remember ESAM going for a single HSB in top 8 today other than recovering. I'd guess that means unless he can guarantee it, it's to unsafe of a move to use at a high level. I'm pretty sure he used the normal T-Jolt as well.

I'm not sure if Pikachu needs a buff or not, but if he did I agree F-Smash would be the best thing to buff. Keep it the same frame wise but just increase the knock back a little. It would also be interesting if they made nair more of a reliable kill move near the ledge, that may make it a bit to OP though.

that might have something to do with CEO being customs off

Man buff or no buff all i know is that killing is often a problem. Which is why are edge guarding game needs to be so refined, which is not easy at all.

and that's what makes pikachu such an awesome character to me at least. I do admit i adore edgeguarding

 

[mercy]

Considering his mobility and the speed of his attacks, Pikachu's KO potential is just fine.

While not quite as prevalent as previous games, DI is still a thing. Also, it stands to reason that Zero, the best Smash 4 player, has good, if not, great DI so that may be attributed to why he was not KO'ed whereas other players might have been.

For what it's worth, ESAM seemed a little sluggish in his gameplay versus Zero. He was using F-smash too often and getting punished for it every time. Also, ESAM kept on attacking Zero's shield and was punished for it every time. Maybe going for more grabs and using forward and back throws, since they deal more damage as opposed to U-throw, might have helped.

 

[koolkid789]

lmao surely this thread is a troll??

 

[Pikabunz]

I don't even think Pikachu is top 5, but he doesn't need buffs. He does have a killing problem though. If you were watching ESAM's matches in the top 8, a lot of his kills came from uthrow thunder. If that's your most effective kill setup then something is wrong. In his set against Larry's Fox, which is apparently one of Fox's hardest match ups, Larry pretty much just stayed in shield when he was at kill percent making him live forever and ESAM got 2 stocked because of that. Larry even recovered from off stage just fine because he knew how to avoid Pikachu's edge guarding. Edge guarding Fox isn't as simple as people say it is. At one point during the match, Larry was below the stage trying to recover with upb. So Pikachu can just bair offstage and easy gimp, right? Nope! Fox's upb beat out Pikachu's bair and Fox recovered safely. A lot of other characters would've gotten the kill. When even Pikachu's edge guarding isn't reliable, which is supposed to be his best aspect, something is terribly wrong. The reason ESAM did so well with Pikachu is because ESAM is just an amazing player. He even got a win using Samus which was his only win on Larry that set.

 

[Angiance]

N.Air beats Fire Fox and many other things-also, U.Air offstage? It creates absurd control over the air, allowing for much easier gimps-it's not hard to stage spike with U.Air or N.Air

The other aerials, for offstage, have too many frames and lack the flexibility that U.Air and N.Air have

 

[mercy]

I don't even think Pikachu is top 5, but he doesn't need buffs. He does have a killing problem though. If you were watching ESAM's matches in the top 8, a lot of his kills came from uthrow thunder. If that's your most effective kill setup then something is wrong. In his set against Larry's Fox, which is apparently one of Fox's hardest match ups, Larry pretty much just stayed in shield when he was at kill percent making him live forever and ESAM got 2 stocked because of that. Larry even recovered from off stage just fine because he knew how to avoid Pikachu's edge guarding. Edge guarding Fox isn't as simple as people say it is. At one point during the match, Larry was below the stage trying to recover with upb. So Pikachu can just bair offstage and easy gimp, right? Nope! Fox's upb beat out Pikachu's bair and Fox recovered safely. A lot of other characters would've gotten the kill. When even Pikachu's edge guarding isn't reliable, which is supposed to be his best aspect, something is terribly wrong. The reason ESAM did so well with Pikachu is because ESAM is just an amazing player. He even got a win using Samus which was his only win on Larry that set.

Sheik has an even bigger problem killing and Zero won with her. Ultimately, it's all about execution. ESAM kept attacking shields which we all know is a big nono for Pikachu. Maybe I am wrong though I would like to hear ESAM's thoughts on the matter.

 

[Uncle Honey]

This board overrates Pikachu so hard. Indeed, the character has more options than most of the cast, but sheer quantity of options is not enough to put him above other characters whose options, however few, are more powerful. It is like comparing a man with a toolbox to another with a lone sidearm.

Sheik has an even bigger problem killing and Zero won with her. Ultimately, it's all about execution. ESAM kept attacking shields which we all know is a big nono for Pikachu. Maybe I am wrong though I would like to hear ESAM's thoughts on the matter.

I'll be damned if Sheik has a harder time killing than Pikachu. At least, Sheik has a clean 50/50 with dthrow>uair/upb. I wish Pikachu had a setup like that but uthrow>thunder doesn't come close to being 50/50.

After today I'm pretty sure it's safe to say he doesn't, I don't remember ESAM going for a single HSB in top 8 today other than recovering...

CEO had no customs.

 

[Gibbs]

I feel like if Shiek's fair was just a tiny bit less safe and/or her needles had more recovery or could be crouched under, the match-up would be 55-45 in pika's favor. Pika doesn't need a buff, and really Shiek doesn't need a nerf. I feel like the balance in this game is crazy good as of 1.0.8. At least among the top tiers.

 

[Zionaze]

Ye know I always had this idea of increasing Pika's size like metaknight (aka nerf) and then buff his kill moves because of his bigger size. Really bugs me when I whiff a move because pika just happens to be too small.

 

[busken]

I don't even think Pikachu is top 5, but he doesn't need buffs. He does have a killing problem though. If you were watching ESAM's matches in the top 8, a lot of his kills came from uthrow thunder. If that's your most effective kill setup then something is wrong. In his set against Larry's Fox, which is apparently one of Fox's hardest match ups, Larry pretty much just stayed in shield when he was at kill percent making him live forever and ESAM got 2 stocked because of that. Larry even recovered from off stage just fine because he knew how to avoid Pikachu's edge guarding. Edge guarding Fox isn't as simple as people say it is. At one point during the match, Larry was below the stage trying to recover with upb. So Pikachu can just bair offstage and easy gimp, right? Nope! Fox's upb beat out Pikachu's bair and Fox recovered safely. A lot of other characters would've gotten the kill. When even Pikachu's edge guarding isn't reliable, which is supposed to be his best aspect, something is terribly wrong. The reason ESAM did so well with Pikachu is because ESAM is just an amazing player. He even got a win using Samus which was his only win on Larry that set.

This mesage is pretty much godlike. In brawl, pikachu was better at edge guarding and because of universally identical frame data people think the same is true. However, nair is weaker an the hitstun on most of his aerials is lower. Also, people overrated autolink angle back air when getting that consistenly requires a good read, and you might not get the kill. I do think Pikachu needs a buff in his edge guarding game if people really think he as good as luigi or shiek lol. Also, shiek doesnt have nearly as much trouble killing like shiek, and the reasons are obvious. I personally dont think pikachu is top tier just becAuse of his trouble killing. If you look at all the high tiers they all have something they can kill off of. Luigi has d-throw. Ness has back throw, ZSS has paralyzer. Sonic has b-throw, rosalina has kill confirms with luma, even diddy still has glide toss+ smash attack, and shiek aerial dominace grants her the best neutral in the game along with needle applications.
TLDR: pikachu's killng problems surrenders top tier placement. Esam's skill made him place well. Call me when you see another samus beat Luigi.

 

[Soul.]

The character should not be overrated material. Good? Yes, but it should never be overrated. Pikachu only wins tourneys because of amazing players. It has always been this way; Smash 4 is no exception.

The only buffs I would ask for are Brawl NAir and up tilt to link to Thunder spike at high percents. Maybe down smash popping people up but that's something else. Though honestly, Pika is fine as is. Light characters are weak by design iirc. I honestly felt that match was about the players themselves, not the characters.

Also don't bother bringing up Heavy Skull Bash. That's a punishment-bassd move, and it would be really disappointing if Pika only gets KOs by using that move when customs are on. Thunder Wave is another thing; the infinite is what I would call overrated but w/e. Only time will tell if that's true. EVO is not far away, anyway.

 

[Angiance]

This board overrates Pikachu so hard. Indeed, the character has more options than most of the cast, but sheer quantity of options is not enough to put him above other characters whose options, however few, are more powerful. It is like comparing a man with a toolbox to another with a lone sidearm.

I'll be damned if Sheik has a harder time killing than Pikachu. At least, Sheik has a clean 50/50 with dthrow>uair/upb. I wish Pikachu had a setup like that but uthrow>thunder doesn't come close to being 50/50.


CEO had no customs.

Pikachu can literally combo most characters allllllllllllll the way to an edgeguard situation-that's a damned REASON for him to work for KOs as a trade off

 

[phili]

I agree with the point that many people in this thread made already; ESAM played sloppy and was also up against an opponent who plays a higher tier character and is at a higher skill level than anyone else in the world right now. FF fair on shield is not good, and ESAM did it over and over again in that set.

People who say Pikachu needs buffs such as kill confirms and stronger attacks don't realize what that would actually do to this character. If Pikachu had solid kill confirms off grabs or for example, nair > upsmash like fox has, he would most likely be the best character in the game. Pikachu is already high tier (not top tier) imo. Asking for buffs on a high tier character is just asking for nerfs later when Sakurai realizes that the buffs made the character OP.

Yes, Pikachu has trouble killing in certain matchups. Does that mean he needs buffs? Hell no. It means Pikachu players need to adapt and learn how to kill in those matchups.

Also, dthrow > uair is not a true 50/50 with sheik. At high percents, you can just DI away and sheik's only followup becomes fair, which doesn't kill until very high percents near the ledge.

 

[Angiance]

Falling F.Air is actually one of Pikachu's key spacers, though it really shouldn't be fastfalled unless you're certain it'll hit

 

[Gibbs]

As much as pika may be a little overrated, it seems like there's just as much overrating of other high tier's kill options. Only Ness and Luigi have guaranteed kill confirms off of a throw. ZSS boost kick has a DI 50/50 at most spacings, and has much lower kill power. Ness' aerials all may be a little strong, but his air mobility is meh and a little predictable. Fox's jabjab upsmash kill confirm is really hard to land in practice. The vast majority of the cast lacks an abuse-able kill confirm. Honestly Pika's pivot f-smash and JC up-smash are better tools than most of the cast get.

 

[Gibbs]

Falling F.Air is actually one of Pikachu's key spacers, though it really shouldn't be fastfalled unless you're certain it'll hit

I've been spacing more with SH AC dair recently. I think it's a little safer to cross up if someone foxtrot shields when you aren't expecting.

 

[Jmacz]

CEO had no customs.

Yeah I don't know why I forgot that, I knew EVO had them enabled I just confused myself.

 

[Angiance]

Spacing with Air Conditioner D.Air seems legit at first, but nah~

 

[CassandraZD]

i was gonna say maybe make his dair a meteor smash because its animation looks like one but then people started talking about "frame data" and "CEO" and i got scared

 

[Gibbs]

Spacing with Air Conditioner D.Air seems legit at first, but nah~

Lol I'm going to start calling it the frigidair