Pikachu Gets a 50/50: New Tech for Covering Up-Throw Thunder DI

[Lomogoto]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07oGFvdaEVA

Ok 50/50 may be wishful thinking, more realistically probably a 33/67 because they could not DI.

This was recorded in slow motion because the timing is strict and I suck, but as far as I can tell it works, and I have done it at normal speed in training.

A friend of mine is holding directly to the right and buffering an air dodge from before I throw him up.

After up-throw, if you follow the opponents DI, you can connect thunder by doing a back flip out of dash. By this I mean dash, jump and hold backwards while squatting, and then thunder. This is different from other ideas that have come up like B-reversing and RARing. In the video the thunder does B-reverse, but that is not the important part and this can be done without it.

Inputs after the throw:
==> + ==> +

Hope this helps Pika climb the ranks!

 

[Noro~]

Is that method in any way better/faster than this:

(tap buffer) > > +

?

 

[Lomogoto]

Ive found it much more reliable to get blue thunder this way, and most of the time when i get b-reversing to work it is because i did the backflip first. B-reversing doesnt stop your momentum, it just flips it. The backflip stops you.

 

[Noro~]

The quote I posted doesn't show a B-reverse. It doesn't flip your momentum. A B-reverse would be this:
>>+> (the turnaround input coming after the down B)

The way Pikabunz posted it cancels some of your momentum, usually just enough for the thunder to barely hit you.

 

[Lomogoto]

The quote I posted doesn't show a B-reverse. It doesn't flip your momentum. A B-reverse would be this:
>>+> (the turnaround input coming after the down B)

The way Pikabunz posted it cancels some of your momentum, usually just enough for the thunder to barely hit you.

Oh i thought i remembered that from the B-reversing thread, my bad.

So the first input you posted does what mine does, because the buffering of the thunder diagonal causes a back flip, but i wanted to clarify that the back flip is what makes it work. If you wanted the cloud to start a bit higher, because they had higher percent or what not, you could back flip then thunder at any point in your jump. With the diagonal input it would not work because it isnt what actually stops the momentum.

 

[Pikabunz]

Looks like a different variation of the other method. Any type of back input during the jump will stop some momentum.

 

[Angiance]

D.Throw > Thunder is better anyways

 

[Lomogoto]

Looks like a different variation of the other method. Any type of back input during the jump will stop some momentum.

Yes, i found it out messing around with that method. Thank you for posting it in the first place! I just think these inputs better detail what is happening in the engine, and it lets you adjust the hight so it can work for a greater range of percents.

EDIT:
Holding straight back stops all forward momentum in the jump. Was this the case with the diagonal input or did that just slow you down enough?

 

[Lomogoto]

D.Throw > Thunder is better anyways

I used to think that until i realized any person experienced in the match up will always DI forward, in which case we have no kind of follow up, eapecially if they jump.

Down throw is good if youre playing someone inexperienced and you grab them near the edge so you can assume they will DI dack or not DI. If they DI forward we still cant get a spike on a good player. Its also slow enough for them to react and change DI if they see down throw instead of up throw.

 

[Caiahar]

I used to think that until i realized any person experienced in the match up will always DI forward, in which case we have no kind of follow up, eapecially if they jump.

Down throw is good if youre playing someone inexperienced and you grab them near the edge so you can assume they will DI dack or not DI. If they DI forward we still cant get a spike on a good player. Its also slow enough for them to react and change DI if they see down throw instead of up throw.

Although in higher percents, I don't think the opponent has enough time to react after a dthrow to avoid the thunder

 

[Lomogoto]

Although in higher percents, I don't think the opponent has enough time to react after a dthrow to avoid the thunder

Hmmm, ive never had that experience. With just up throw have i been able to get a thunder follow up on good DI and smart play, through this backflip technique.

 

[Angiance]

D.Throw is better to me because of the simple fact that they can't DI behind us, so I know exactly where they are going to go vs guessing where they will try to go. Actually, D.Throw is a reaaaally good setup for a KO off the top with the lighting bolt of Thunder since the lightning can last longer than a airdodge

 

[Lomogoto]

D.Throw is better to me because of the simple fact that they can't DI behind us, so I know exactly where they are going to go vs guessing where they will try to go. Actually, D.Throw is a reaaaally good setup for a KO off the top with the lighting bolt of Thunder since the lightning can last longer than a airdodge

I know not letting them go behind us is nice, but if they consistantly DI infront of us can we do anything at all?? As far as i can tell we can read air dodges and get an up air or thunder if were lucky. If you initially dash the wrong way after up throw you can easly react and turn around, putting you in a very similar situation of reading options as they DI away. The difference being if you dash in the right direction they at least take 20% if not lose a stock. Everyone I play is very good about DIing away from down throw and i havent found an answer other than up throwing instead. Also the forward DI makes the airdodge coverage harder because, while thunder lasts longer than an air dodge, they move past the thunder while air dodging and arive safely on the other side of the bolt.

 

[Angiance]

Yes, but if they apply maximum DI we can actually dash the full length and get them with the cloud-but say they do airdodge and read them into something like an F.Smash at their landing...see what I'm getting at?

 

[Pikabunz]

If they air dodge thunder, they're going to recover from it before they land on the ground. Also, you can do the same with Uthrow.

 

[Thor]

Dthrow at the ledge may still have value because DI'ing offstage against Pikachu is never where anyone wants to be, and if someone messes up their DI, it should be the stock.

That said, I agree uthrow is preferable to dthrow when looking for a thunder, especially if they've already shown they won't risk dthrow thunder by choosing to always DI in front of Pikachu.

 

[phili]

Hey guys, I labbed this pretty hard and I found that the easiest and most consistent inputs are:

> > > +

These are basically the same inputs as L Lomogoto described, but I input back on the control stick before (and not at the same time) as the jump input.

If done correctly, Pikachu should do a dash (about full length) then jump straight up and do a turn around thunder. It true combos off uthrow if your opponent DI's away or behind, meaning that this is theoretically a guaranteed kill setup if you can react fast enough to your opponents DI.

It also true combos off down throw with no DI, but you can't get it to connect off dthrow if they DI away.

Hope this helps

EDIT: I'd like to make a tutorial video for this, but will only do so if L Lomogoto says that's ok because I learned about the potential of this combo from this thread

 

[Pikabunz]

Are you absolutely sure it true combos? Like did you test this with another person?

 

[phili]

I tested it in training mode while applying all different kinds of DI and the training mode combo counter thing says it still combos. I don't have another person to test with to buffer an air dodge or something, but the original post said he had his friend trying to air dodge

 

[Pikabunz]

Even if the combo counter says it combos it's doesn't always mean it's a true combo. The counter counts things as combos if a move hits during their hitstun and air dodging can happen before hitstun wears off.

 

[phili]

I know the combo counter isn't always 100% correct, but in L Lomogoto 's original post, he says he had a friend DI'ing and trying to air dodge, and his combo still worked. I'd like to test it myself, but I have no one to hold the other controller and mash air dodge. So for now, I'm gonna have to trust Lomogoto's video.

Also, I have done this on opponents a few times already, and have seen ESAM do it in tournament. Idk if the opponent couldn't air dodge, or just didn't because they thought they couldn't be hit by thunder since they DI'ed though.

 

[Pikabunz]

Well you also said it true combos from a down throw. Up throw to thunder is already really frame tight and down throw has less time to follow up, so I'm doubting down throw to thunder actually works.

 

[phili]

Ah you're right. The combo counter did show that it combos from dthrow as well, if that counts for anything. But if uthrow thunder really does combo for all DI's, I don't see any point in ever going for dthrow thunder ever again, as they can escape it by doing away DI anyway

 

[Lomogoto]

With those inputs do you turn around on the ground before jumpimg? This may work as far as i can tell but i am not technical or practiced enough to get it. This is why i do the backflip, because it avoids the turnaround animation completely, so i atleast have a bigger window. The turning around input before the jump is definitely easier to go straight up with, but i have never been able to get it to combo on a human (i have tested this one too with a friend). Again that may just be that im doing it too slow, but for that reason im recomending the backward jump as harder to do consistantly, but easier to actually make combo.

 

[phili]

If you do it fast enough, like hit back then immediately jump into a thunder, you won't turn around on the ground, but your thunder will end up facing the other direction. If you are a little slower, pikachu does turn around first, but you can still get the combo to work according to the training mode counter. I'll post a video about this on youtube and link it here when it's uploaded. I'll give you credit in the description of the video L Lomogoto , because I never would have labbed this if you didn't make this thread

 

[phili]

Ok the video is uploaded to youtube. I'll post this in the Pikachu video thread too so that any users who haven't read this thread can also learn how to do this

 

[Pikabunz]

It looks like you're doing the back input after the jump in each of those thunders.

Also, would you guys be alright with me combining this thread with the original? The tech in the other thread is pretty much the same thing and it had videos showing this too.

Here's the original: http://smashboards.com/threads/new-or-so-i-think-pikachu-tech-i-found.414249/

 

[Lomogoto]

It looks like you're doing the back input after the jump in each of those thunders.

Also, would you guys be alright with me combining this thread with the original? The tech in the other thread is pretty much the same thing and it had videos showing this too.

Here's the original: http://smashboards.com/threads/new-or-so-i-think-pikachu-tech-i-found.414249/

Whatever you want, i made this post to show it could be done consistantly and that the back input mid jump squat was what makes it work, doing it only before or only after does not. I know this was confusing to me when looking at the other inputs posted so i wanted that to be clairified for everyone. I still think the inputs in the videos and that thread, while they do work, dont reflect why they work and only work when the back input actually overlaps with the jumping animation. It could be done without actually turning around if one so desired.

If you do it fast enough, like hit back then immediately jump into a thunder, you won't turn around on the ground, but your thunder will end up facing the other direction. If you are a little slower, pikachu does turn around first, but you can still get the combo to work according to the training mode counter. I'll post a video about this on youtube and link it here when it's uploaded. I'll give you credit in the description of the video L Lomogoto , because I never would have labbed this if you didn't make this thread

To be fair i really only figured out what pikabunz was doing in the post he mentioned above that was working so it could be understood better. Credit for the initial discovery belongs to him as far as i can tell.

 

[Pikabunz]

The methods I posted do have you inputting back during the jump squat, though. Each of the methods have different reasons for why they work and some of them are even slightly faster than others. The objectively best method is to run > jump > b-reverse thunder during jump squat, but this is also the hardest method. It's good to have a thread with all of these methods available to everyone so people can try out and see what works best for them.

 

[phili]

yeah I think most of the time i'm inputting back right as or after I jump to get a turnaround thunder. However sometimes I am doing the inputs I posted and getting a RAR thunder, which also works. Either way, its a true combo. Pikachu's need to be aware of this and start doing it for free kills in the 100-140% range (depending on rage)

 

[Gibbs]

The objectively best method is to run > jump > b-reverse thunder during jump squat, but this is also the hardest method. It's good to have a thread with all of these methods available to everyone so people can try out and see what works best for them.

Doesn't this result in a SH rising thunder as opposed to a FH? Will that effect kill %s? Also does the back input of the breverse thunder need to be in the jump-squat? Cause that's a 2 frame window XD.

 

[Pikabunz]

yeah I think most of the time i'm inputting back right as or after I jump to get a turnaround thunder. However sometimes I am doing the inputs I posted and getting a RAR thunder, which also works. Either way, its a true combo. Pikachu's need to be aware of this and start doing it for free kills in the 100-140% range (depending on rage)

I only see it being a true combo on some characters and only at very high percents. There just isn't enough hitstun for thunder to connect. Let's use Mario as an example. From 44%-136%, Mario gets 41 frames of hitstun before he can air dodge and it takes 3 frames for Mario is become invincible from his air dodge, so this gives Pikachu 23 frames to work with after he up throws. Thunder takes 13 frames to hit with the cloud and jump squat takes 4 frames, so we're left with only 6 frames for running and doing the backflip. You need to run at least 4 frames to even reach them so that means we can run for 4-5 frames and do the backflip for 2-1 frames. So while this does true combo, you need to be extremely precise with your inputs. Is anyone really good enough to do this consistently? This is just Mario though, it may be easier or harder with other characters as some characters have faster air dodges or some have slower air dodges or even take more hitstun earlier.

Doesn't this result in a SH rising thunder as opposed to a FH? Will that effect kill %s? Also does the back input of the breverse thunder need to be in the jump-squat? Cause that's a 2 frame window XD.

Hold jump if you want FH and it does effect kill percent. You always want to FH. The back input does need to be during jump squat and it's a 4 frame window.

 

[phili]

I only see it being a true combo on some characters and only at very high percents. There just isn't enough hitstun for thunder to connect. Let's use Mario as an example. From 44%-136%, Mario gets 41 frames of hitstun before he can air dodge and it takes 3 frames for Mario is become invincible from his air dodge, so this gives Pikachu 23 frames to work with after he up throws. Thunder takes 13 frames to hit with the cloud and jump squat takes 4 frames, so we're left with only 6 frames for running and doing the backflip. You need to run at least 4 frames to even reach them so that means we can run for 4-5 frames and do the backflip for 2-1 frames. So while this does true combo, you need to be extremely precise with your inputs. Is anyone really good enough to do this consistently? This is just Mario though, it may be easier or harder with other characters as some characters have faster air dodges or some have slower air dodges or even take more hitstun earlier.

I've killed a few times with this already and I just found out how to do it yesterday. I'm not even consistent with it yet. Even if it doesn't true combo on every single character, it seems worth learning to me. Just my opinion. I'm far from a great pikachu player though, so maybe I'm off the mark here.

 

[Pikabunz]

Okay, so there is some use for the backflip thunder over the b reverse thunder. Some characters will go too high at higher percents (about 130+) and doing b reverse thunder won't reach them. This is when you'll want to use backflip thunder or double jump thunder.

 

[Constadin]

Using a double jump cancels your momentum and pusses you straight up. The way I have been doing this is up throw to jump in the direction of the di and immediately let the directional analogue to neutral and hit second jump thunder. If done rly fast or if you guess the direction they di and jump there initially then in practise it registers as true combo amd lvl9 bots cannot escape this. Vs a human it seems to work most of the times as well and it rly is hard to distinguish whether it doesn't connect due to the way being bad or I didn"t performed it right.

 

[Felth]

phili I have a question about this technique. Sometimes I pass over the thunder. I don't know if this occurs because I'm doing a bad input or maybe bad timing. I did the technique 4 times in the video. I think that the 2 and 3rd times are good and 1 and 4 are bad.

Link to the video (only 7 seconds of video)

 

[phili]

Felth , yeah you did it correctly in the 2nd and 3rd tries, but incorrectly in the 1st and 4th tries. Just keep practicing the input. Remember exactly what you did whenever you did it correctly. With enough practice, it becomes muscle memory. Also, try to make your dash slightly longer before you jump and thunder. At higher percents, the opponent will fly further right or left, so you need to input a longer dash in order to hit them with the cloud.

 

[Felth]

phili Ok I'll do that =). My real question is what I'm doing wrong in the 1st and 4th try?

 

[Noro~]

Felth play the video in x0.5 or x0.25 speed, then you will see what you did wrong. Your inputs for the reverse thunder (/+) were a few frames late. These inputs need to happen during the 4 frames of jumpsquat.

 

[Felth]

Noro~ I use the inputs (->->->+). It's the same?