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Pikachu discussion

orionandalba

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 19, 2013
Messages
5
I do tend to roll a bit too much in this matchup. My brother loves jumping above me into a dair/utilt/bair combo. If I dont intercept him while he is in the air, I am sure to take at least 20 percent. When I recover, he tends to just air camp and as I recover high, I get spiked and if I recover low, I get spiked so I usually try to stick to the center of the stage. My brother plays defensively, but when he approaches and plays offensively I have almost no options to defend as all of his aerials trade with mine. We both know about z canceling and are better than the average player. The parts of the match up that trouble me the most are approaching, what to do when he just sits under the **** tent and down tilts when he has the stock lead, how to recover fluently, and what moves to use in general. I found out that dair works amazing but I seem to get punished a lot. He gimps pikachu extremely easily and I dont know how to get a percent advantage if all of his attacks trade with mine. Also shield breaking. Maybe its just my pikachu, but I am getting ***** and am not afraid to admit it.
 

Yobolight

Smash Lord
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find away to get him off the ledge. Jump out and gimp him.

You have a chain throw from a zero % forward throw

uair is your best friend
 

clubbadubba

Smash Master
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I do tend to roll a bit too much in this matchup.
Like I said, don't roll. You know about zcanceling, so instead of rolling around you should be doing aerials.

My brother loves jumping above me into a dair/utilt/bair combo. If I dont intercept him while he is in the air, I am sure to take at least 20 percent.
Only 20%? Don't tell you brother, but he can easily rack that up to 60-70 % lol. Well you can try to intercept him with an uair, but if your brother has better spacing than you it might be tough to do. Another option is to not let him get above you. Use the platforms on whatever stage to stay above him and force him to either be below you or even with you.

When I recover, he tends to just air camp and as I recover high, I get spiked and if I recover low, I get spiked so I usually try to stick to the center of the stage.
He gimps pikachu extremely easily
This should never happen, and is strictly due to you being overly predictable. Pikachu has the best recover in the game by a mile, and should rarely, if ever, be gimped. You have so many options as pikachu, if he takes one away, use another one. If you try to recover high, and then he goes high, pull away and fastfall down, then up-b onto the stage. If he gets above you for the spike, go underneath or around him. You should work on effectively using up-b to go directly to the ledge. If you can do that, it forces him to cover that option leaving high recovery that much more open. You should also avoid floating down helplessly as much as possible. Try to finish your up-b near or on the ground so he has less time to catch up with you. Btw, if you release the stick right before the end of the up-b animation, you will actually go even further. This is useful if you are using it horizontally as it will get you further away from him.

My brother plays defensively, but when he approaches and plays offensively I have almost no options to defend as all of his aerials trade with mine.
A defensive Kirby can be very difficult to approach. You really have to bait them into making a false move and then capitalize. An example that works a lot at lower skill levels is to almost land right in front of them, but jump at the last second. A lot of players will automatically fsmash, and after you've avoided it you can usually punish them. Depending on how your brother likes to attack, try to make him think he'll be able to hit you, but avoid his attack and punish him for the attack you know is coming. I hope that makes sense. Also, if he's coming at you with a Dair or something, a well timed utilt while you are facing AWAY from him should stop him in his tracks and maybe lead to a combo for you.

Again, uair is pikachu's best move, and one of the, if not the best move in the game. Don't approach kirby with fair for sure, as that is a move that will almost always trade or get beat by kirby. Uair is your best bet. It comes out quickly, but it comes out back to front, so you should face away from him if you're trying to catch him before he attacks. You should try to do one of 2 things with an Uair approach: 1) Catch him before he gets a move off. This shouldn't be too hard if he is trying to do anything but Nair. Or 2) Use the approach to bait him into doing an aerial of his own, avoid it and counterattack. You shouldn't be traded as much as it sounds like you are. Back is also acceptable, but less as an approach and more as defense to keep him spaced away from you. Dair is strong, but doesn't have the best priority, so it should be used to finish a combo or as a punisher more than as an approach.

Also shield breaking.
Shielding vs kirby is rarely a good idea. If he can land a hit on your shield, often he can break it. And since there is no good use for shield other than to absorb a hit, just don't shield vs kirby. Rare exception is if you are near a ledge and he is about to push you off.
 

orionandalba

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 19, 2013
Messages
5
Thank you for your help. My brother does the know the 0-70% combos, the reason I said 20% is because even at high percents every hit will do at least that much, if not finish me off. I will definately use these techniques the next time I play him and will let you know how it went. Thank you once again for all your help.
 

ballin4life

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disproving determinism
If you get above kirby while kirby is in the air then kirby doesn't have as much defense. His uair has pathetic range and stays out forever leaving him vulnerable. Bair/Nair have hitboxes mostly to the side so if you get above Kirby you can beat his aerials.

Obviously don't be above kirby when he's on the ground though.
 

orionandalba

Smash Rookie
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Feb 19, 2013
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Thanks for the help guys! I just played my brother the other night and was able to beat him or at least get him down to his last stock every match! Special shout outs to Clubbadubba for all the help, all that advice really works!
 

clubbadubba

Smash Master
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Apr 27, 2011
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Wow I can't believe that actually worked just by reading it lol. Props to you for actually learning from a bunch of jumbled words. Also, you should play online.
 

orionandalba

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Feb 19, 2013
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I must be a fast learner. I did want to set up online today but I have no idea where to go for it and how to set it up. All I have is project 64 on my computer
 

Battlecow

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Camping the top platform on hyrule is really good against kirby because he doesn't have any coverage above him while he's in the air so you can just ff dair or bair him and if you're smart you're pretty much safe

you gotta be smart about getting it though, good defensive up-B's and judicious tent camping make it a little hard, obv you can't keep it in between stocks

worked pretty well against killer, there are ways to **** it up but I can see it being... kind of matchup-breaking, if it was done by someone who didn't keep ****ing up their up-B's and making bad decisions when cornered in between stocks and timing dairs wrong ---> getting utilted

I tried it some against bad kirbies on DL but it didn't seem to work there, just cause of plat width and side plats and the way that affects stuff... still OK against impatient people but not that great

IDK how good it would work against other characters but left-side camping is pretty broke against like fox/falcon and running away forever is pretty foolproof against most low-tiers and tent camping is like the perfect thing against everyone if you know how to tent.

The hilarious thing is that the main thing making camping even remotely hard is tornadoes, a totally random can-****-either-person coinflip element. That stage is some funny ****.
 

B Link

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Those are good strategies from bcow. I'll also add that camping there for the dair also works well against kirby if you're jiggly or Mario.
 

DC-NERD

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Just jerking your leg bro (relax)



But I saw Killer say "tired of chasing" and it made lol. Usually everyone else says that to him. So you're strat is simple brilliant enough to piss him off I see.
 

The Star King

Smash Hero
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DL platform camping is pretty strong. Though of course Hyrule is a bit stronger.

I might just suck vs platform camping though.
 

Yobolight

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Platform camping is like one of my fave strategies. Sadly not every character can pull it off that well.
 

Battlecow

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hey there dudelets

quick Q's

1. does anyone have any gerson v kirby vids? I recall them but I can't find them on the tacna channel and I can't search because they don't usually include char names in the vid title.

2. does that fthrow->usmash thing he loves to do on kirby connect? in training mode I can never get it, even on 1/4, Of course, I'm ballsack at that kind of thing so it might just be me. But could someone who does that kind of thing check it out?

thanks guys.
 

KoRoBeNiKi

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All I see is "camping" written all over that post.
It's a Battlecow post, you expect it. :troll:

1. does anyone have any gerson v pika vids? I recall them but I can't find them on the tacna channel and I can't search because they don't usually include char names in the vid title.
Obligatory set: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4pZOfUNe8w and etc

Less obligatory set: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHcWgDXSKPM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bzb_GuR3aTY
Other games:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9G6rEx_AYNI (highly recommended, 2 minute match, wat)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bzb_GuR3aTY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVB_SLCCc4Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Fb9H57dXCs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aO04MYBgwx8


2. does that fthrow->usmash thing he loves to do on kirby connect? in training mode I can never get it, even on 1/4, Of course, I'm ballsack at that kind of thing so it might just be me. But could someone who does that kind of thing check it out? thanks guys.
think I've done the u-air to u-smash combo by using the end of the tail, the side hit of it seems to make combos a bit easier)
 

Battlecow

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yo sorry koro lol I meant vs kirby

totally wasted your time there sorry

And I'm talking about fthrow-usmash-reverse nair-stuff, kirby on pika. Not uair-Usmash
 

Sangoku

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It does not connect according to training mode combo meter, but it does connect as in Kirby don't have time to do anything (not even one frame of jump), maybe the combo meter is off by one frame?
 

Battlecow

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of course, it's much easier to be close to frame perfect with the jump than it is to be close to frame perfect with the run->usmash

interesting
 

Battlecow

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Thanks, oli! that ended up helping my game a fair bit.

What do y'all think about fair to approach

I often feel like in the neutral game vs pika/doug my uairs (low uairs are good for approaching obv) get called and since I'm bad I end up eating a grab. but, like, everyone does this thing where they fair in midair sort of to psych themselves up before doing an actual approach (ie do the pika ditto thing and space super cautious bairs until someone ****s up and overextends and eats a utilt). But I've had success lately with doing actual fairs (like, not halting momentum at all, just sh'ing right in there and fairing) because it's surprising. you get percent and usually they jump up above you which is gold in the pika ditto cuz you can uair them
 

clubbadubba

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Sounds situational. Biggest reason I don't like fair approach is that if you end up trading hits, you're in trouble because of fairs low knockback. Just seems way less safe than other aerials. Seems like the surprising success you're having is coming more from committing to an approach than from the particular move. I guess the difference between fair and other aerials is that it lasts longer so you don't have to worry about timing it as well.
 

Battlecow

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You might be right, but you can only really commit with fair and uair, and uair seems a lot easier to avoid if you know it's coming

eh
 

KoRoBeNiKi

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You might be right, but you can only really commit with fair and uair, and uair seems a lot easier to avoid if you know it's coming

eh
I find sh f-air to be a useful spacing tool, not for attacking per say but for jumping around and waiting to attack
 

The Star King

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Yessss, Battlecow discovering the anti-metagame nature of going in. Nobody expects the decisions you make. Soon Battlecow will be the most aggro player out there :)
 

MrMarbles

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Hey guys I'm brand new to smashboards and was hoping to learn a thing or two from the best of the best! Anyways I've been working on getting better at combos and I'm seeing progress but it doesn't matter much if i cant successfully initiate them in battle which so far I've had little success with :( does anyone have any tips for initiating pika combos against other players? Another thing that is completely unrelated is that i have a lot of trouble approaching people that use a lot of pivot (especially falcon). I already know when a pivot is coming but i cant seem to do anything to counter it. Any advice for approaching someone who does this?
 

Battlecow

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I don't quite know what you mean. Good spacing comes with practice and there's no silver bullet against pivots.

good pika combos--upsmash-upsmash-reverse nair-reverse uairs, take away one upsmash sometimes, utilts->reverse uairs->bair, fthrow->brthrow works from 0.
 

MrMarbles

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Is there anyway to 0-death samus in the tent with pika? i can do it agaisnt most characters but because of samus's weird combination of heavyness and floatyness i cant seem to connect much. can't seem to chain grab at all and when i go from grab>aerial she usually falls below me because the knockback isnt strong enough
 

Battlecow

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It's pretty hard to do. I'm certain that it's possible if you're looking for just a standard training mode 0-death, but an inspection of high level matches in the matchup will show that a true 0-death in that MU is really really rare.
 

The Star King

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Hey guys I'm brand new to smashboards and was hoping to learn a thing or two from the best of the best! Anyways I've been working on getting better at combos and I'm seeing progress but it doesn't matter much if i cant successfully initiate them in battle which so far I've had little success with :( does anyone have any tips for initiating pika combos against other players? Another thing that is completely unrelated is that i have a lot of trouble approaching people that use a lot of pivot (especially falcon). I already know when a pivot is coming but i cant seem to do anything to counter it. Any advice for approaching someone who does this?
USmash and UTilts are probably the main starters, or you can just get an aerial chain from the get-go if you, say, uair them when they're above you.

I don't quite know what you mean. Good spacing comes with practice and there's no silver bullet against pivots.
The silver bullet vs mid-level players is overshoot run shorthop dair. It'll destroy them. But a good player will punish you for doing it too much.
 

MrMarbles

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It's pretty hard to do. I'm certain that it's possible if you're looking for just a standard training mode 0-death, but an inspection of high level matches in the matchup will show that a true 0-death in that MU is really really rare.
thanks for the tips Battlecow

USmash and UTilts are probably the main starters, or you can just get an aerial chain from the get-go if you, say, uair them when they're above you.



The silver bullet vs mid-level players is overshoot run shorthop dair. It'll destroy them. But a good player will punish you for doing it too much.
i'm getting better at aerial chains but the samus i play usually mamages to up-B out of them, i guess i gotta execute them faster.
oh wow i used to do the sh dair but moved away from it when my opponents got better and could punish me for it and eventually totally forgot about it but i bet it could be useful against better players if i only used it every once in a while to throw them off
 

KoRoBeNiKi

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I think that you could potentially combo into a d-tilt to up smash off of the wall. Seems like it would be a good finisher
 

MrMarbles

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Is it possible to do a double uair off of a running sh? i can do it standing but not running. I think ive seen it done in the Japanese version but i've heard that there's less attack lag on that version so idk
 

B Link

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^Yes it is. It's pretty easy to do normally so I'm not sure why you're having trouble. But I will admit that it is hard to perform mid combo.
 

jimmyjoe

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Keep in mind the Uair hitbox starts in the back of Pikachu, so if you're having trouble getting out a second one while running(this implying they are in front of you), it's going to be even more difficult to connect the second hit, as you'd have to remain airborne long enough for the hitbox to swing all the way to the front. I think You'd really want to try to keep the center of their mass above yours but just slightly in front to ensure you juggle them in the direction you're moving, and connect as early as possible in the hitbox's swing.

If you ever perform double uair chains with them behind you, it seems like it would be the inverse of that. I usually try to keep my opponent above be and slightly to the back- it's much more difficult to connect with a second SHdouble Uair if they are further towards the back of pika because they are popped further out of range and lower, giving you less time to react.
Partially unrelated- conciously try not to attempt a zcancel on the moves that don't require it. It has helped my fluidity with pika (I don't play ness but I would assume the same) by eliminating something that could cause an error.
 
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