Pika Tactics

[milestones54]

Im having particular trouble getting a gain on fox with Pika
A friend of mine is at essentially the same level as me with fox but he smashes me, in particular with up+b speed in general, its almost as though i have to anticipate him anticipating me to beat him in certain areas
Any idea?

 

[ballin4life]

Step 1: Throw fox off edge
Step 2: Fsmash
Step 3: ???
Step 4: Profit

 

[House]

Step 1: Throw fox off edge
Step 2: Fsmash
Step 3: Taunt
Step 4: Profit

Fixed.

Spoiler

10urdums

 

[Daedatheus]

essentially the same level as me with fox but he smashes me, in particular with up+b speed in general

What do you mean by this?

its almost as though i have to anticipate him anticipating me to beat him in certain areas

Yeah, that's generally how a lot of matches in this game work, especially when two players are evenly matched. That, or spacing battles.

 

[asianaussie]

Well...if he smashes you all the time, he's not the same level as you. And Up-B speed? I'm not sure what that means, can you clarify?

About anticipation...that's sort of important. Let me rephrase that: It's very, very important. Prediction and counter-prediction win games.

Against Fox, you should keep the pressure on. Getting him off the edge pretty much ensures a KO as long as you know how to F-Smash. If he does get back on, just throw him back off. That's a pretty universal thing for Pika to keep in mind. Since you haven't specified very much, I can't really say much. Is he comboing you to hell? Does he laser camp? Does he spam throws? What is it that stops you winning?

 

[milestones54]

Sorry i havent really been clear. It just seems that hes faster all the time.
His jump attacks always land even if im mid attack myself, he doesnt necessarily have to attack first to get priority. I used to struggle when he started juggling me but i got around this by learnign to stay on the floor and only use single jumps
Also it takes so much more to get kill him. He is always at least 120% before he starts struggling to get back on the level while pika can die at 80-90%
Im just wondering if im missing anything simple

 

[Daedatheus]

Practice combos and any other tech stuff. That might handle the speed issue.

He's just a better player, Fox should die much sooner than Pika since pika has the best recovery and Fox's is just average.

Try to see what habits of yours he's exploiting, and break those bad habits. Keep doing that. Like I said, practice tech stuff like combos to make yourself better at punishing.

Mainly I would say play online if you don't already, give it a month of P2P and you'll probably be beating him. I'd be willing to play you and critique bad habits and stuff. I mean, everyone would be willing to play you, but to break it down for you on the spot, not everyone wants to put that time in...

 

[milestones54]

Understandable.
The main problems at the moment are his juggling still, no way to avoid his air attacks once hes hit me once and just power, the fact that he can kill me on 80% sucks

 

[Daedatheus]

Understandable.
The main problems at the moment are his juggling still, no way to avoid his air attacks once hes hit me once and just power, the fact that he can kill me on 80% sucks

Without videos it's really impossible to say what the real problem is. He's beating you psychologically and if you knew why then you wouldn't need to ask, so it's very hard to know what the issue is specifically. The best we can do without video is give general tips.

Sure he can kill you on the stage at 80% (70% actually, with upsmash vs pika), but you're Pika. You can gimp him from 0% if you land one throw on the edge and edgeguard effectively.

 

[ballin4life]

Pika can juggle too with utilts. To escape his juggle use pikachu's up b to teleport away (it has a little bit of invincibility too).

Also, edgeguard edgeguard edgeguard. Pika should be able to own fox once he is off the edge with aerials and fsmashes.

Also if you could post a video that would be helpful so we could see exactly what is happening in your matches.

 

[milestones54]

Im confused on a few terms, what are tilts? and iv seen camp mentioned as well which im not sure what it means.
With foxs juggling, he tends to get to me before i can teleport and the teleport leaves pikachu open for so long especially when going upwards.
Edgeguarding works well, but its getting fox there in the first place thats hard.
Also im playing on console, so video isnt that easy

 

[rpotts]

Tilts are the a attacks that are performed by "tilting" the control stick in a direction (up, down or sideways) instead of smashing the stick. Utilt refers to up tilt, which is pikachus tail wag. As far as getting out of his juggling, the only things you can do are DI or tech. If you aren't sure what those are/how to perform them i suggest you learn everything this topic teaches
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=80690

Camp refers to when you sit in one place and wait for your opponent to make the next move. Laser camping is a fox "technique" that involves staying away from the opponent and using the neutral b laser over and over to rack up damage. Pikachu can also neutral b camp with his electro shock but it is much less effective because of how slow it is, it's shorter range and how it only runs on the ground.

The easiest way to get fox off the edge is by throwing him. Then you can edgeguard/hog him with fsmash, dtilt or a variety of other situational attacks.

Also, when he has enough damage (60-100 depending on the stage) you can use usmash -> downb. Smash him upwards and when he nears the top hit him with the thunder attack. It will likely send him past the top blastzone.

This is Isai's (the best ssb64 player in the world) youtube channel.
http://www.youtube.com/user/mevsec?blend=1&ob=4
In it you will find hundreds of videos, many of them with him playing pikachu. I'd suggest you watch as many as you can, and try to recreate the things he does. It will not be easy, even if it looks simple. Isai makes the most difficult on-the-fly combos seem effortless.

Hope this helped some, feel free to ask more questions though if you are confused.

 

[asianaussie]

Sorry i havent really been clear. It just seems that hes faster all the time.
His jump attacks always land even if im mid attack myself, he doesnt necessarily have to attack first to get priority. I used to struggle when he started juggling me but i got around this by learnign to stay on the floor and only use single jumps
Also it takes so much more to get kill him. He is always at least 120% before he starts struggling to get back on the level while pika can die at 80-90%
Im just wondering if im missing anything simple

Here's the thing. He's spacing much better than you. I have to assume you're using F-Air (the barrel roll) or N-Air (the karate kick), as the other moves should be able to hit Fox. Learn to take it slow, perhaps dashdance to bait him closer, then hit him around.

Fox should die quite quickly, and only get to 120% if you're standing in the middle of a large
level. If you can land an U-Smash at about 80% (I need a correction on this), thunder spiking should KO easily.

Im confused on a few terms, what are tilts? and iv seen camp mentioned as well which im not sure what it means.
With foxs juggling, he tends to get to me before i can teleport and the teleport leaves pikachu open for so long especially when going upwards.
Edgeguarding works well, but its getting fox there in the first place thats hard.
Also im playing on console, so video isnt that easy

Tilts are where you tilt your control stick part of the way to the full and press A. They come in three flavours, U-Tilt (upwards), F-Tilt (forward/sideways) and D-Tilt. Since you play Pika, I'll comment on his. His U-Tilt is a great juggling move. It's where he flicks his tail upwards. His F-Tilt is a fast, arbitrary hit. His D-Tilt is a fun, low-trajectory hit.

Camp is where you stay in one spot, waiting for the other person to come. You preferably hurl projectiles at them while camping, to make them come at you. This is also called baiting.

Fox has brilliant comboing, and there's only so much you can do against it. First, read up on DI at http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=80947. It can help against Fox's drills. I was going to mention his Up-B teleport, but you said something about that. If you get an opening, you should be able to escape from sheer distance covered. When you use your teleport, get as far away as possible, or use it unpredictably. Make sure your fastfall if you end in the air, it's a very basic thing to remember.

If you can't get him to the edge, you're not pursuing. If you can get a good hit, run at him to close the distance. Hopefully you can get him a few times, so you move battlegrounds from the centre to the edge. Since you're wondering what tilts and camping are, I won't mention combos. Just know that some D-Airs/N-Airs/B-Airs and throws chained together provide the distance, while you have to physically run after him to close this distance.

 

[milestones54]

Thanks for the help by the way guys.
Speaking of combos, in most instances i can link a few hits with throws, hit him around abit, but it seems that most people tend to rely on pre set combos?
How does this work in different environments? If a combo relies on the presence (or not) of an environment, surely you can only use it when the opponent is in the perfect position and health?

 

[rpotts]

Well the simple answer is, people don't rely on preset combos, except for a few that work no matter what (Kirby's dair -> utilt, Fox's dair -> jab -> usmash, or just utilt spam) it just seems like they do because a lot of combos are built off of just a few moves. Most combos are on the fly though, some just happen to occur a lot, like Falcon uair juggling.

Good smashers get their opponent into the right position either by mindgames or comboing them, then get them to the right damage so a certain combo will work, then finish them as soon as possible. For instance, pikachu can start a combo with any of his aerials -> usmash, then utilt until they are the right damage to be carried across the map with uairs. Watch Isai, Johnny, Tigerbombz and other good players pikachus, you will see this combo often.

 

[Daedatheus]

surely you can only use it when the opponent is in the perfect position and health?

You can, but those perfect positions rarely arise.

By learning pre-set combos, you simply gain a better intuitive control of your character and you learn how to chain moves together more fluidly. After enough playtime in training mode and real matches, you start to improvise with what you know.

Some setups are absolutely key though, for example with Pika, when your opponent is at a high-ish percentage, Utilt -> Bair is a simple but effective way to knock an opponent offstage.

Watch those Isai videos to get an idea of some of the staple things that your Pika could and should be doing.

 

[Blue Yoshi]

When someone starts to learn combos, they use pre-set combos (certain percentage etc. as you say). After they do this enough, they find variations, and expand on these combos. Over time, the mindset of pre-set combos becomes a mindset of chaining moves one after the other, which becomes chaining moves while thinking of the move you're using three moves ahead, and so on.

 

[asianaussie]

Everyone else covered what sort of thing you should be doing. Blue Yoshi in particular summed up what experience does to you. Since you only main Pika, I suggest you work first on some very simple ones. Daedatheus mentioned copying Isai; I think that's not the best idea yet. Learn some of the fallback basics, like:

U-Smash(es) -> U-Tilt (s) -> U-Smash -> Thunder
F-Throw -> run and grab at 0% on some characters
F-Air -> other aerials
Any aerial into the ground -> Grab
Jump U-Air -> Fastfall (if needed) -> Double jump -> another aerial

That sort of stuff. These have a decent chance of working, moreso on players who can't DI. Don't go emulating Isai yet, from what I can tell you still have to get some more experience before you can be fluently hitting people from one side of the map to the other.

As for preset combos...these are extremely hard to come across/use. Most require precise positioning. The most common ones I see all have to do with the starting positions (when the match first begins), eg. a Falcon (P1) v Falcon (P2/4) on Dreamland, where Player 1 can run and U-Smash a few times, followed by U-Airs into a D-Air. Even this one is pretty rare, most players will dodge away, as they know they're in a bad position. Preset combos are simply too hard to apply on a regular basis, because pretty much everyone who plays at a decent level will know the easier ones, and won't let you throw them out.

 

[Daedatheus]

Daedatheus mentioned copying Isai

No, I meant exactly the same thing as what you just posted.

I said you can learn the "staple" techniques of your character from watching Isai videos. Where did I first learn usmash -> thunder? Isai videos. Utilt -> Bair? Isai videos. Fthrow chaingrab? Isai videos. Etcetera.

Don't try and just flat-out copy Isai, of course not. But learning some easy setups and techniques by watching his videos? Of course!

 

[asianaussie]

No, I meant exactly the same thing as what you just posted.

I said you can learn the "staple" techniques of your character from watching Isai videos. Where did I first learn usmash -> thunder? Isai videos. Utilt -> Bair? Isai videos. Fthrow chaingrab? Isai videos. Etcetera.

Don't try and just flat-out copy Isai, of course not. But learning some easy setups and techniques by watching his videos? Of course!

My bad. Misinterpretation on my part.

 

[Surri-Sama]

Fox vs pika is easy enough if you are willing to gimp

Try back throw, Nair, and Utilt

You will win