Guide Pichu with DerfMW (Video Guide)

[Comet7]

if pichu could use mud slap and lower the opponent's accuracy with it, he would be a better character

 

[kingPiano]

Yea Comet, I guess we just disagree. U-tilt does obviously have lower priority but 90% of the tail sweep is effective against marth since his attacks all come down from above or hit high on Pichu (it's effective hitbox duration same as F-tilt essentially, but more space control)

I have tried F-Tilts against CPU and Human Marths, get grabbed almost every time they try, and it never clanks with grab. EVER.

And what a ignorant statement "i've also been trying to not play this card, but you joined less than a week ago and it's pretty obvious that you don't know what you talk about."

So if Mew2King had been studying frame data and strats since the game came out and Mango had been dominating tournaments but then just joined this site to talk about melee you'd tell them "i've also been trying to not play this card, but you joined less than a week ago and it's pretty obvious that you don't know what you talk about."

From what I've seen of this site so far it's a ton of people that aren't very experienced talking nonsense and theoretical tech and then very few pros and actually legit players who talk from actual experience. Believe it or not Comet but there are people that don't even go on sites like this but they dominate tournaments and have insane knowledge of the game *GASP*

XD I do this and the application is abusing a hitbox long that doesn't lose to f-smash, d tilt or grab. And it fills it even if it's very niche.

Also don't believe up-tilt ducks grab but get a gift and that'd be awesome.

But honestly if it ducks then d-smash would too and flip marth around in a bad way and has good Inv. Frames and will always tanka tipper f-smash.

But we don't know pichu as well as we think. XD so it's silly to sling mud at each other

You don't believe up-tilt ducks grab?

I guess to believe you'd actually have to have actually played a human Marth with a Pichu. It does duck the grab, and it does very consistently. F-tilt on the other hand you're getting grabbed, doesn't clank, lots of end lag (Bye bye Pichu).

Down smash and d-tilt in neutral are bad, they are very difficult to work in against a marth (his sword comes from the top and gets you easily). I don't ever use D-smash on Marth, but on the edge frequently use d-tilt.

Don't mean to sling mud, but again there is a fine line here between just saying stuff and actually talking about what's actually worked on tournament level Marth many times. Some moves and combos can look amazing in theory or in training, but in an actual matchup they are not viable or fall flat (and vice versa)

 

[Comet7]

if you're asking about how the final hit of pichu's f smash works, you don't have that huge amount of knowledge of how the game works. and no, i wouldn't tell them that off the bat, but from what little you've posted, it's safe to come to that conclusion.

sorry derf we kinda clogged your thread up with this silly debate

 

[kingPiano]

if you're asking about how the final hit of pichu's f smash works, you don't have that huge amount of knowledge of how the game works. and no, i wouldn't tell them that off the bat, but from what little you've posted, it's safe to come to that conclusion.

sorry derf we kinda clogged your thread up with this silly debate

Yes because if someone doesn't have knowledge of one of the lowest tier non viable characters in the game, he must be a noob.

I'm willing to bet Armada, HBox and bunch of other top players are clueless about Pichu's specific move data. You come to such moronic conclusions based on so little info about me.

Sorry this got so acidic, and sorry DeRF for this being in your thread. At least most of it's it's related to Pichu and his toolset..

 

[Comet7]

Yes because if someone doesn't have knowledge of one of the lowest tier non viable characters in the game, he must be a noob.

I'm willing to bet Armada, HBox and bunch of other top players are clueless about Pichu's specific move data. You come to such moronic conclusions based on so little info about me.

Sorry this got so acidic, and sorry DeRF for this being in your thread. At least most of it's it's related to Pichu and his toolset..

so you just admitted that you don't know what you were talking about. *cue psyduck noise* i also don't care how much you know about anything else, but this basically proves that you are a noob regarding knowledge of this character.

yes i can come to those conclusions if it is apparent that you don't know how pichu's f tilt can be useful or how the final hit of pichu's f smash works as someone who knows more about pichu more than you do.

 

[kingPiano]

so you just admitted that you don't know what you were talking about. *cue psyduck noise*

yes i can come to those conclusions if it is apparent that you don't know how pichu's f tilt can be useful or how the final hit of pichu's f smash works as someone who knows more about pichu more than you do.

I guess you don't know what sarcasm is...

Again your conclusions are very ignorant, they never make sense.
Here we'll use your logic. Assume a lot and use propaganda techniques.

Comet goes on on the forums and studies frame data and hit boxes for 2 years.
Comet knows exactly how each frame of F-smash works (he has them printed on his wall).
Comet has never actually played in a tournament against a Marth though, only lvl 9 CPUs and in training.
Comet plays his casual friends, starts thinking he is amazing.
Comet goes to tournament.
Comet gets obliterated.
Comet's knowledge is useless, he doesn't know how to actually apply it on skilled players.
Don't worry though he still thinks he's better than other people.

 

[Comet7]

I guess you don't know what sarcasm is...

Again your conclusions are very ignorant, they never make sense.

Comet goes on on the forums and studies frame data and hit boxes for 2 years.
Comet knows exactly how each frame of F-smash works (he has them printed on his wall).
Comet has never actually played in a tournament against a Marth though, only lvl 9 CPUs and in training.
Comet plays his casual friends, starts thinking he is amazing.
Comet goes to tournament.
Comet gets obliterated.
Comet's knowledge is useless, he doesn't know how to actually apply it on skilled players.
Don't worry though he still thinks he's better than other people.

now you're acting like you know everything about me. am i supposed to call you moronic now? i actually do go to tournaments and place decently (remember that it's lol pichu) btw.

anyway, i'm done. don't ever talk to me again until you do your homework and learn how to argue because all you've done is wasted my time with arguments flimsier than pichu himself.

 

[kingPiano]

now you're acting like you know everything about me. am i supposed to call you moronic now? i actually do go to tournaments and place decently (remember that it's lol pichu) btw.

anyway, i'm done. don't ever talk to me again until you do your homework and learn how to argue because all you've done is wasted my time with arguments flimsier than pichu himself.

That last message was done using your logic, lots of assumptions and misinformation. I don't mean it literally.

anyways...

There are two kinds of people in this world those that learn fast, and those that never learn.

No matter how long they play or practice there is a glass ceiling they can never penetrate. They plateau. This is most people, they usually aren't aware of it and they think time played = skill acquired. Not true most of the time.
I don't know you or your actual skill level with Pichu, so I won't make any real assumptions. So far the F-tilt statements boggle my mind since time and time again it's been useless against any good Marths in neutral and uptilt has time and time again been so much better at set ups and breaking neutral.

Pichu, he's never been my main. I wanted to see if I can take my regional tournaments with him, so i'm learning him and I've only played other top players in my area to force myself to improve. I learned through trial and error his techs like the lagless agility and have exhaustively tested each move and combo even before seeing hitbox data.

In all seriousness I'd be eager to see any of your matchups against a good Marth. I'm being serious, not in a spiteful way. But I want to see how these F-tilts are to be used effectively, and how you handle a Marth (with the advice you gave to me). It would definitely put me in my place perhaps there is something I'm missing. Would you consider yourself better or as good as DeRF (AesirGod) or ICP?

 

[Comet7]

there aren't any good marths in my region (or at least ones that i'd consider good). i haven't tested it out too much, but it's the words of derf which i'd consider credible. derf's pichu is much better than mine given that he's been using him much longer and i'll put in work habit johns since my ethic is awful for about anything i do. from what i can tell, f tilt is best used as a mixup in neutral to throw the opponent off and get something started since nobody really expects it and human reaction time is important. honestly i think i'd have a good vid of me against a marth but i think the streamers just didn't take me seriously or something.

actually i sometimes go to the same tournaments as ultimascout but i haven't managed to ever play him, unfortunately.

 

[the muted smasher]

I place at locals with average 25 people and beat all but one sheik main with pichu...

Bro pause the game buffer a grab and f tilt and be amazed.

But really tho be more respectful, just cause You think You're a little guy doesn't mean You have to fight people You I think are taller.

 

[DerfMidWest]

I didn't have time to read everything that got posted here yet, but I'll say these things:
1. ftilt is incredible for clanking purposes. Utilt does the same thing, but keep in mind that the hitbox in front of you is at the end of the animation. Ftilt lingers longer and the timing is way less specific. You could use utilt if you wanted, but I don't see much reason to prefer it to ftilt.

2. priority is actually a made up concept, in reality it's a combination of a lot of different things that determine what moves will clank or beat out other ones, but the concept of "priority" is easier to explain/understand.

3. Some doraki jump stuff is coming. Right now I lent my dazzle to a smash club at a college near where I live. I actually played a match on stream (in grand finals) with my Pichu, but it was pretty out of practice. I did some cool stuff though. But I went ICs the whole tournament and was mostly going for flashy **** with my pichu instead of actual things, so it's not a video to watch for "correct" or smart play, but I did some stuff. I haven't rewatched it yet, but I ended up losing (it was the only game I dropped the whole tourney though).

I'll post a link in the video thread or something later.

 

[the muted smasher]

Playing Pichu and watching the replay always feels ewwww just because we know exactly why we lost or didn't land slide someone

 

[kingPiano]

I didn't have time to read everything that got posted here yet, but I'll say these things:
1. ftilt is incredible for clanking purposes. Utilt does the same thing, but keep in mind that the hitbox in front of you is at the end of the animation. Ftilt lingers longer and the timing is way less specific. You could use utilt if you wanted, but I don't see much reason to prefer it to ftilt.

2. priority is actually a made up concept, in reality it's a combination of a lot of different things that determine what moves will clank or beat out other ones, but the concept of "priority" is easier to explain/understand.

3. Some doraki jump stuff is coming. Right now I lent my dazzle to a smash club at a college near where I live. I actually played a match on stream (in grand finals) with my Pichu, but it was pretty out of practice. I did some cool stuff though. But I went ICs the whole tournament and was mostly going for flashy **** with my pichu instead of actual things, so it's not a video to watch for "correct" or smart play, but I did some stuff. I haven't rewatched it yet, but I ended up losing (it was the only game I dropped the whole tourney though).

I'll post a link in the video thread or something later.

Very cool I'm stoked for it.

Well I'l explain my reasoning again (from my personal experience):
1. U-Tilt leads to combos, f-tilt does not. This is massive for Pichu who can rack up 30+ in one juggle. Utilt can also lead to a grab and chain U-tilting at low percents.
2. Utilt has way less end lag it's entire animation is as short (and shorter) than some of the medium-larger characters jabs.
3. On Marth the Utilt hit box seems to be effective the whole sweep duration since his attacks hit high or come from above (except for one), and without looking at the data and using it on a lot of marth matches it just feels better and seems to clank and space much better than f tilt.
4. Utilt's entire animation also seems to duck under marth's grab, playing local Marth's I've seen them whiff grabs almost everytime I'm finishing Utilt (if they don't get hit by it). When I use Ftilt I find I will get grabbed if they initiate it since Pichu stands up for the last 15 frames of lag.

There is a common phenomena, you know where certain moves when used in actual matches they seem better than the data suggests (and some times vice versa). In my experience against a Marth F tilt is crappier than is U tilt even though some of the data would suggest otherwise (and on other characters F-tilt > uTilt, I really think it has to do with Marth's hurtboxes)

 

[DerfMidWest]

If you're clanking, the two moves are getting cancelled out. Neither character has an immediate frame advantage.
Ftilt also is very useful for combos since it forces a knockdown or an offstage situation, so keep that in mind. Also remember that Pichu combos really aren't about percent (since standard combos don't even do any), but more about gaining positional advantage.

It sounds to me like you should try expirimenting with ftilt more. There are utilt situations and ftilt situations. The two moves serve very different purposes, but are both pretty essential to Pichu's play. Although, honestly, I'd rather lose utilt than ftilt if I had to choose between the two. Ftilt is godlike.

 

[kingPiano]

If you're clanking, the two moves are getting cancelled out. Neither character has an immediate frame advantage.
Ftilt also is very useful for combos since it forces a knockdown or an offstage situation, so keep that in mind. Also remember that Pichu combos really aren't about percent (since standard combos don't even do any), but more about gaining positional advantage.

It sounds to me like you should try expirimenting with ftilt more. There are utilt situations and ftilt situations. The two moves serve very different purposes, but are both pretty essential to Pichu's play. Although, honestly, I'd rather lose utilt than ftilt if I had to choose between the two. Ftilt is godlike.

[same from replied thread]

I don't deny that F-tilt is a super move (wouldn't say god like; maybe if it had way less end lag and the hit box was longer), but I'm talking about strictly against Marth. I've tried incorporating it into play against local tourney marths and I get punished or overwhelmed (or grabbed) easily. With U-tilt I have much more luck and it usually leads into 2 free utilts (low percent) and a nair or two at any mid-high percent. F-tilt has way too much end lag to follow up into any good combos and it knock them away too far, great for edge guard but not for neutral against marth, which is what I was referring to the whole conversation.

I guess we just disagree on using which tilt against Marth. I can understand that since both are great tools, but it just comes down to opinion and personal experiences I guess.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Im just replying in the social now since this is really off topic here, but in general against marth you don't want to tilt at all in neutral.

 

[DerfMidWest]

I'm getting my dazzle back pretty soon so hopefully I'll make another video in a couple weeks.

 

[Rotomatic]

I'm getting my dazzle back pretty soon so hopefully I'll make another video in a couple weeks.

Haven't had access to a computer in a while. I eagerly await it. While I have stayed on the dark side (Marth, Sheik), I still want to have a really good pocket Pichu because learning a low tier really teaches you about your opponent's options.

 

[the muted smasher]

I think just having an idea that is Yours and running with it is far better than anything else. Sadly for low tiers that idea or theme runs out quick.

I've advanced so much more as a player by playing ics and running with the idea of hyper offense de synced and d smash spam than I did as pichu trying to be a tight in spacing as possible.

But also just the time I've had as ics vs people... Idk I might do the same stuff with pichu if I put all my time into him. Just people suck vs ics and I have been told by wife that I have amazing teams fundmentals when I just picked sheik.

Best bet is to follow Your heart.

 

[DerfMidWest]

With low tiers in particular, if you want the best results, and not just be able to beat people once or twice, you need to focus on guaranteed things and pushing tech and theory. Not gimmicks.

Things either work or they don't. There isn't an in-between.

The problem with most low tiers (and melee players in general) is that they are too gimmick focused and not centered on doing things that actually work.

With low tiers, there tend to be waaay more gimmicks than things that work, and the things that work can often be less rewarding that the gimmicks, but understanding the importance of efficiency is super important.

With Pichu, the goal is to find the tools to do things the best way possible. That means finding ways to get stuff done, that works, and yields the most reward while still doing so.

 

[the muted smasher]

I think outside of pichu, s nair game, d tilt/grab and niche other moves, everything else is a read or gimmick based on what You find in Your shffl game. But i would be bold enough to say gimmicks are legit if the person You're fighting does play any mental game, You can train them to run into some serious non sense.

As ics I know I'm gimmicky as hell but it makes approaching me a wierd coin flip. Where I do things like like sh bair or side-b or I'll do wierd de synced with respawn Inv. And bair someone off a platform into an up smash nana is charging.

Their mind set can make these things legit if You can read into it. But the core fundmentals are what it branches out from and I can't even call this stuff a mix up because the stuff I do is really left field after niche reads

 

[DerfMidWest]

I think gimmicks are something people should try to avoid altogether.

With pichu, you've got guaranteed combos (most of which are two hits), legit option covers, strong throws for reaction tech chases, etc.

In the modern metagame as a whole people are trying to move away from the whole "hard read" mentality and focus more on real things, a lot of low tiers in particular suffer from that old mentality, and get forced into a playstyle that will work a couple of times then become irrelevant after people learn the mu.

But finding and developing playstyles that actually work is doable and definitely what we should push for as a whole, and to do that we should be eliminating gimmicks

 

[Sweet™]

Is this what you do in your spare time, Derf.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Is this what you do in your spare time, Derf.

I like to talk about things.

 

[the muted smasher]

Friend? Buddy?

PAL?? :; )

They buffed bowser and kirby Neff ed ness but left pichu/roy alone what ever

 

[DerfMidWest]

Friend? Buddy?

PAL?? :; )

They buffed bowser and kirby Neff ed ness but left pichu/roy alone what ever

Im not sure how you managed to reply to the wrong thread, but good job.

I think he was saying things like nerfs to fox/sheik help pichu out and stuff like that

 

[Comet7]

*crickets chirping*

 

[cadentoob]

*crickets run away*

 

[DerfMidWest]

I keep forgeting about all these pichu project things I forgot to finish.
I don't have a computer right now though, so I can't get around to this for a minute.