Pichu in Ultimate: Joke character again or Buffed?

[Chibi-Chan]

Pichu Thunder spikes the same way as Pikachu, so if you can get them at the correct height, it will KO as expected.
F-smash has decent power, but the range is trash. Upsmash is the one other move that can KO, it's fast and has a good hitbox but it takes a lot of % to KO.
Nair is the old Pikachu nair, so that's one aerial option that has some knockback to gimp.

 

[Teeb147]

Pichu Thunder spikes the same way as Pikachu, so if you can get them at the correct height, it will KO as expected.
F-smash has decent power, but the range is trash. Upsmash is the one other move that can KO, it's fast and has a good hitbox but it takes a lot of % to KO.
Nair is the old Pikachu nair, so that's one aerial option that has some knockback to gimp.

Yup that makes sense. The only thing is that nair doesn't have that much knockback now, from what I ve seen.
Im not entirely sure if there's sour spots in some attacks, because ive seen upsmash get poor knockback at some points.

I do think that the game plan for pichu will be to try to gimp, and the second resort comes at higher percents, where there's quite a few things that can ko. Though not throws, none of them are kill throws, which is kind of sad. And at again higher percents, fair and bair can kill with their last hit well enough.

I'd like to have more ko options, but hopefully more good stuff gets found out to help.
And Pichu still has a lot going for it

 

[Chibi-Chan]

Yup that makes sense. The only thing is that nair doesn't have that much knockback now, from what I ve seen.
Im not entirely sure if there's sour spots in some attacks, because ive seen upsmash get poor knockback at some points.

I do think that the game plan for pichu will be to try to gimp, and the second resort comes at higher percents, where there's quite a few things that can ko. Though not throws, none of them are kill throws, which is kind of sad. And at again higher percents, fair and bair can kill with their last hit well enough.

I'd like to have more ko options, but hopefully more good stuff gets found out to help.
And Pichu still has a lot going for it

Pick your kill attempts very carefully, most of them are electric and will deal damage to yourself. Have found the best strategy is to mostly use uptilt, nair and specially upair for the bulk of the match since they're the best combo moves and don't self-damage.

 

[Teeb147]

Pick your kill attempts very carefully, most of them are electric and will deal damage to yourself. Have found the best strategy is to mostly use uptilt, nair and specially upair for the bulk of the match since they're the best combo moves and don't self-damage.

Oh so you've been playing?
I'm not gonna play like that. Self-damage is no big deal compared to using good attacks at the right time. (or sometimes fishing even if there's a bit of damage)
But of course, it's still going to take a more conservative strategy of some kind. I have to really play around with the attacks and get a feel for it myself at this point.

It's also more fun to not hold back too much :D

 

[Chibi-Chan]

Oh so you've been playing?
I'm not gonna play like that. Self-damage is no big deal compared to using good attacks at the right time. (or sometimes fishing even if there's a bit of damage)
But of course, it's still going to take a more conservative strategy of some kind. I have to really play around with the attacks and get a feel for it myself at this point.

It's also more fun to not hold back too much :D

Yeah, been doing tests for the forums. And it can be easy to get carried away and forget you lose 1-2% anytime you do Fair, Bair, Dair or Thunder Jolt. You can spam those moves very fast if you try, and Pikachu player's often do the exact same thing. I've been saddened with how fast the % racks up just by doing these in the neutral, not landing them, just from habit.

 

[Teeb147]

Yeah, been doing tests for the forums. And it can be easy to get carried away and forget you lose 1-2% anytime you do Fair, Bair, Dair or Thunder Jolt. You can spam those moves very fast if you try, and Pikachu player's often do the exact same thing. I've been saddened with how fast the % racks up just by doing these in the neutral, not landing them, just from habit.

It's nothing compared to melee. At least fair is just 1% this time.
But yeah we wont be able to spam them. We'll have to be more watchful. But personally I want to not bother with that too much, at least at first, and really make use of all the moves.

Well, if you can play, feel free to post more info if you find interesting stuff. always nice to see.
At this point I really just want to play myself, but gonna wait for the actual release.

 

[Havanatha_banana]

I think Fair is the only move you want to spam. Fsmash lost its range, so you can't use it as a spacing tool. Tjolt was never that good as a camp tool. Dair was kinda meh to use on neutral, though I think it's better for Pichu than Pika.

So yeah, I can only see Fair as the move you'll using often. And considering how useful it is, I think it's worth the 1% loss each time.

 

[Teeb147]

I'm a bit sad if it's true that pichu is the lightest character in the game. I knew it'd be lighter than pikachu, but I still thought it'd have the up on jigglypuff :/
Don't get hit, I guess.
Will see how it goes and enjoy in any case..

 

[Platurt]

Great, they are still on their "Pichu is a worse Pikachu"-philosophy, so get ready for another few years of not having an answer to "why don't you play pika instead".

Compared to Pikachu he's slower on the ground, a lot lighter, has about half the range, is just as big and he's missing Pika's up-b hitboxes and new nair.

So yeah, great job representing Pichu, he's just as much a worse version of Pikachu here as he is in the Pokemon games and I have no words for how incredibly pissed this makes me.

E: Yes ik it's early. Yes, maybe tomorrow someone finds an infinite involving his dtilt or something and that makes him top tier, but even outside of competitive play, there shouldn't be a character who just exists to be a worse version of another character.

E2: Lol I was damn wrong. Saw his moveset and his range and assumed the rest was the same.

 

[meleebrawler]

I see how Pikachu is in Ultimate, and I think being a worse version of him is honestly not a bad place to be. We must remember Pikachu was ''merely'' mid-tier in Melee, so if the comparison is roughly the same here Pichu could be mid-tier.

Plus I can already see there are areas where Pichu does better. His Agility lets him go incredibly deep for edgeguards and goes far and fast enough now that even a single use can get Pichu out of disadvantage fairly easily and without too much harm. Also his ftilt is both a combo starter and kill move.

 

[Platurt]

To me, "worse than pikachu in every aspect" is the worst place to be in, idc if he's the second best or the worst character.

But yeah, I guess agility going slightly further is an advantage.

 

[Teeb147]

Great, they are still on their "Pichu is a worse Pikachu"-philosophy, so get ready for another few years of not having an answer to "why don't you play pika instead".

Compared to Pikachu he's slower on the ground, a lot lighter, has about half the range, is just as big and he's missing Pika's up-b hitboxes and new nair. Also self-dmg. To compensate for this he got a combo dtilt and his old nair except it's ****ty this time.

So yeah, great job representing Pichu, he's just as much a worse version of Pikachu here as he is in the Pokemon games and I have no words for how incredibly pissed this makes me.

E: Yes ik it's early. Yes, maybe tomorrow someone finds an infinite involving his dtilt or something and that makes him top tier, but even outside of competitive play, there shouldn't be a character who just exists to be a worse version of another character.

Well, you've got good points, but that's the worse things to look at.

Here's what's different and good about pichu.
+Better Aerial mobility (significantly vertically, and enough horizontally)
+Better recovery distance (like meleebrawler said)
+Fair and bair have more knockback (so, better for gimping, including thanks to recovery and mobility)
+F-tilt is not only a move that can trip at lower percent, but is a ko move around 110-130%, which is great for its speed.
+F-Smash has more power (but -less range).
+Aerials have less landing lag and better frame data in some cases. (faster attacking can mean more pressure, and ability to get out of the way after)
+Up-air has some potential combos into thunder. (fall speed being better helps gauge cloud distance more, etc)
+D-tilt has potential for combos as well. (like you said)
+Side-B is faster and may have more usage than pikachu's (including maybe even in some combos)
+Neutral-B (t-jolt) may be a little bit better (will have to check more)

And that's about all I know up to now. Let's see what comes up once the game comes out.
But yes pikachu may be objectively a better character, but that doesn't mean pichu isn't a good choice for some. And if it's thought to be 'bad', that's all the more reason to play it, and catch people off-guard It's also an 'underdog' choice.

Also..
+Cuter. <3

 

[Chibi-Chan]

Well, you've got good points, but that's the worse things to look at.

Here's what's different and good about pichu.
+Better Aerial mobility (significantly vertically, and enough horizontally)
+Better recovery distance (like meleebrawler said)
+Fair and bair have more knockback (so, better for gimping, including thanks to recovery and mobility)
+F-tilt is not only a move that can trip at lower percent, but is a ko move around 110-130%, which is great for its speed.
+F-Smash has more power (but -less range).
+Aerials have less landing lag and better frame data in some cases. (faster attacking can mean more pressure, and ability to get out of the way after)
+Up-air has some potential combos into thunder. (fall speed being better helps gauge cloud distance more, etc)
+D-tilt has potential for combos as well. (like you said)
+Side-B is faster and may have more usage than pikachu's (including maybe even in some combos)
+Neutral-B (t-jolt) may be a little bit better (will have to check more)

And that's about all I know up to now. Let's see what comes up once the game comes out.
But yes pikachu may be objectively a better character, but that doesn't mean pichu isn't a good choice for some. And if it's thought to be 'bad', that's all the more reason to play it, and catch people off-guard It's also an 'underdog' choice.

Also..
+Cuter. <3

Fair and Bair are pretty different. I guess Pichu Bair is like a reversed pikachu Fair, not the derpy spin thing. Electric too some damages.

Upair is really good, sends at very clean vertical angle so it's very easy to combo.

And yeah, her sideB and upB have huge range, though do a lot of self-damage x.x

Also you forgot Upsmash, which is not as strong as Pikachu's, but has a lot more reliable hitbox and combo potential at low %s.

Also dat melee taunt.

 

[Teeb147]

Fair and Bair are pretty different. I guess Pichu Bair is like a reversed pikachu Fair, not the derpy spin thing. Electric too some damages.

Upair is really good, sends at very clean vertical angle so it's very easy to combo.

And yeah, her sideB and upB have huge range, though do a lot of self-damage x.x

Also you forgot Upsmash, which is not as strong as Pikachu's, but has a lot more reliable hitbox and combo potential at low %s.

Also dat melee taunt.

Yeah I didn't mention up-smash because even tho it's got a wider hitbox, which is good in general, Pikachu's is a really good ko tool, which isn't the case for pichu, so in my book the pros dont outweight the cons. Maybe it can be used more often tho. I'm not sure yet.

Overall I'm excited to play pichu. One of the first I want to play, as soon as I can get it

 

[MERPIS]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

rejoice with me.

 

[Teeb147]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

rejoice with me.

Well it's nice to see faster play with pichu.
It's mostly all against ridley in there, who's easy combo food, but still cool as a small preview.

 

[MERPIS]

Well it's nice to see faster play with pichu.
It's mostly all against ridley in there, who's easy combo food, but still cool as a small preview.

up tilt thunder

 

[Teeb147]

up tilt thunder

Im not sure it's true, but if it is, yeh that's nice. Maybe it's the 50/50 ryuga was talking about. dunno. but it's looking like potential anyway

Also, here's something nice i saw on his page:

"Pichu:
killing fthrow
killing ftilt
killing bair
down tilt sends upwards for nair or uair "

It's the first time I hear that fthrow is a kill throw. That's actually relieving. I wonder what percents they are.
down tilt sending upwards is actually.. really great, considering the combos

 

[Havanatha_banana]

Wait, if F throw is a kill move, does that mean it's not an easy combo tool during mid %? I know Pichu has great combo game with his uair, but fthrow > dair is what I use to get easy stage control with Pika.

 

[MERPIS]

Wait, if F throw is a kill move, does that mean it's not an easy combo tool during mid %? I know Pichu has great combo game with his uair, but fthrow > dair is what I use to get easy stage control with Pika.

Just gotta take the good with the bad, pichu is kinda like a watered down 64 pika

 

[Chibi-Chan]

Am positive F-throw is NOT a Kill throw. Who told you this? Unless you consider killed at 160+% right to the edge as a "kill throw".

Also Bair? That move doesn't has small knockback and it's almost impossible to get the last hit anyways since it has such high duration. It KOes earlier than forward throw I guess, at like 120% offstage. Then again, it usually takes upsmash a bit longer than that to KO.

Uptilt/Upthrow combos are very good, however, and you can combo off it at 0-150%, often into thunder! Don't think Pichu is KOing around stage space with anything except F-smash and Thunder setups. Pichu has some strengths, but KOing form the blast zone is not one of them. Maybe the spike can be really good.

 

[Havanatha_banana]

Uptilt/Upthrow combos are very good, however, and you can combo off it at 0-150%, often into thunder! Don't think Pichu is KOing around stage space with anything except F-smash and Thunder setups. Pichu has some strengths, but KOing form the blast zone is not one of them. Maybe the spike can be really good.

Thanks for your testing. Can he try drag down fair > smash attacks at higher %? Since he falls faster than pika, it might be something he can do?

Or can he fthrow > dair spike?

 

[Chibi-Chan]

Thanks for your testing. Can he try drag down fair > smash attacks at higher %? Since he falls faster than pika, it might be something he can do?

Or can he fthrow > dair spike?

I forgot about F-tilt in my last post, which is an actual killmove. You can't Fair/Bair combo into much because of the landing lag, but I think F-tilt might be possible, just tight, having a hard time doing it... That would be a KO combo. However you can Fair into grab, upthrow and thunder which is more reliable.

F-throw sends them upwards a lot, so you definitely cannot run after and

By the way, Down-tilt is an amazing move, it leads into combos at ANY% you want, even at super high ones since it has practically no knockback growth. At 0%: Dtilt, uptilt, uptilt, uptilt, upair, any aerial true combos for 30%+ damage. Can often combo upsmash from utilt at low% for great damage too!
Also, Dtilt true combos into spike at high %s, but it doesn't usually send them sideways enough unless you hit them next to/hanging from the ledge.
Uptilt is like.. old Mairo tier, maybe superior! God move, just spam it.
Upthrow comboes into thunder ALWAYS, even at 0% or at 150%, it's extremely consistent.

EDIT: at 60% I got Dtilt, dash upsmash, thunder sweetspot from the middle of the stage and it KOed.

EDIT: Did I mention she has the best recovery in the game? By a good margin? It's insane. She cannot be gimped.

EDIT: at like 50%, dtilt -> f-smash comboes and can KO if near the ledge.

 

[Havanatha_banana]

eDIT: at 60% I got Dtilt, dash upsmash, thunder sweetspot from the middle of the stage and it KOed.

EDIT: Did I mention she has the best recovery in the game? By a good margin? It's insane. She cannot be gimped.

EDIT: at like 50%, dtilt -> f-smash comboes and can KO if near the ledge.

Nice! Thanks!

Sounds like she has similar kill potential as Pika, since Pika's only confirm atm is nair > upsmash.

Can you please elaborate on the recovery part?

 

[Chibi-Chan]

Nice! Thanks!

Sounds like she has similar kill potential as Pika, since Pika's only confirm atm is nair > upsmash.

Can you please elaborate on the recovery part?

Biggest issue is reading DI on Thunder at high %s, upthrow isn't guaranteed if do thunder on place.

Her recovery, well, the distance on upB is LUDICROUS, each of the zips comes out extremely fast with huge distance (Half of FD horizontally per zip) and though they are not fully invincible, they are extremely hard to nail (Pichu hitbox seems to be very tiny, but not sure it has actual invul). SideB distance is even more ridiculous, going 80% of FD NO CHARGE with good speed, you can get from any blast zone back to the ledge as long as you don't die. Even if pichu loses her double jump, just sideB + upB can recover her from anywhere in a competitive stage. Hell, she can easily go under most stages and come up from the other side. A lot of characters this game would kill for like 30% of her recovery ability. *looks at Chrom*

For comparison. Pikachu upB goes about 30-40% of FD per Zip and uncharged sideB only about 55%, plus the animation is a lot slower. Advantages, of course, is that they don't deal damage to Pikachu and upB actually has a hitbox.

EDIT: I could measure the distances in stage units too, but think I made my point.

EDIT: though F-throw -> Dair is hopeless. Dash attack recovers fast enough for Pichu to get in position for Dair spike after a fullhop at mid%s, though it won't true combo you can mixup since you still have second jump to chase airdodge.

 

[Havanatha_banana]

Biggest issue is reading DI on Thunder at high %s, upthrow isn't guaranteed if do thunder on place.

For comparison. Pikachu upB goes about 30-40% of FD per Zip and uncharged sideB only about 55%, plus the animation is a lot slower. Advantages, of course, is that they don't deal damage to Pikachu and upB actually has a hitbox.

Wasn't DI also issue back in Smash 4? Or is the effect of DI during upthrow much higher than before?

Man, I can't wait to try to edge guard with her. I want to see what can I do with this new found freedom off of the stage.

 

[Chibi-Chan]

Wasn't DI also issue back in Smash 4? Or is the effect of DI during upthrow much higher than before?

Man, I can't wait to try to edge guard with her. I want to see what can I do with this new found freedom off of the stage.

Yeah, the DI is kinda the same as Pikachu in Smash 4 I guess.

As for edgeguard: You can runoff ledge and go all the way until you see magnifying glass, do a rising Nair and recover with some distance to spare. Since she can also wall-jump, it can get hilarious in some stages. You can also do a drag-down Bair/Fair and you'll never die trying, though Fair will likely send them flying before that (This gimps most of the cast anyways).

EDIT: Or how about Run-off Dair, double jump Fair if missed the spike, then still recover easy.

Ledge drop Bair covers the entire distance from the ledge to the bottom of the stage and you can barely recover.

Ledge drop FF Nair into rising Nair upB only needs 1 zip.

 

[Havanatha_banana]

DJTHED from the Pichu discord have some great info.

https://m.imgur.com/aG4Mj8y?r

Pichu's Fsmash can 2 frame on ledge. It's character dependent though.

 

[Chibi-Chan]

DJTHED from the Pichu discord have some great info.

https://m.imgur.com/aG4Mj8y?r

Pichu's Fsmash can 2 frame on ledge. It's character dependent though.

That for sure kills if it lands, that f-smash is stronk.

Issue is it means you dont go offstage to edgeguard, but there's some scenarios where you don't have enough time for sure. 2-framing is always a gamble.

TIP: Always play in Omega/FD style stages with Pichu if possible. Platforms may seem good to combo upairs, but it's nothing compared to being able to Thunder properly, since that's a very important move to get KOs early. Platforms also screw up thunder jolt!

 

[Teeb147]

It's Ryuga who said fthrow could ko. I saw bthrow and it hardly kos even at high percents.
It sucks if he doesnt have a usable kill throw, but so long as he can make good use of them for offstage gimps or thunder reads, maybe it'll be fine.

Anyway, I'll read back the rest of what's here later.
Less than 1 week before we can finally pichu it up

 

[Chibi-Chan]

In case you had not seen:

Apparently Upsmash has some invul? I've been enjoying that move.

 

[MERPIS]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Top tier.
At lesst the balance team finally figured out the way to make everyone balanced, was to make everyone broken.
We’re playing brawl minus

 

[Teeb147]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Top tier.
At lesst the balance team finally figured out the way to make everyone balanced, was to make everyone broken.
We’re playing brawl minus

That's great. Pichu's better mobility in the air makes that possible. I was wondering if there was some good times to use dair
It still doesnt mean it's a 'true' combo, like maybe they didn't di that well. But either way it's good for pichu
While I dont want everyone to be broken, better if a lot have crazy stuff than only a few. Let's see what all gets found out as time goes by :O

I dont think I'll regret having pichu as a secondary (heck maybe even main if i keep playing it and enjoying)

 

[MERPIS]

That's great. Pichu's better mobility in the air makes that possible. I was wondering if there was some good times to use dair
It still doesnt mean it's a 'true' combo, like maybe they didn't di that well. But either way it's good for pichu
While I dont want everyone to be broken, better if a lot have crazy stuff than only a few. Let's see what all gets found out as time goes by :O

I dont think I'll regret having pichu as a secondary (heck maybe even main if i keep playing it and enjoying)

I dont think DI will impact it that much

 

[Teeb147]

I dont think DI will impact it that much

It does, and that's the big question for a lot of people. You could still catch someone off guard if you do it quick enough, but it's like mario's fair after up airs in smash 4, most of the time you could get out of this happening if you moved out of the way.

It's still looking very good for pichu. I'm looking forward to seeing how far we can go with it

 

[Dyl@@@n40]

**** pichu. Pichu sucks ass in Pokémon and he sucks ass in smash. I don’t know why the **** smash bros included him in melee and I sure as hell don’t know why they included him again. Honestly they should have done raichu instead. They even could’ve done alolan raichu. At least he wouldn’t get damaged by his own attacks for God’s sake.

 

[T-Donor66]

**** pichu. Pichu sucks *** in Pokémon and he sucks *** in smash. I don’t know why the **** smash bros included him in melee and I sure as hell don’t know why they included him again. Honestly they should have done raichu instead. They even could’ve done alolan raichu. At least he wouldn’t get damaged by his own attacks for God’s sake.

Its okay to be bad don’t be ashamed

 

[Dyl@@@n40]

Its okay to be bad don’t be ashamed

Look all I’m saying is that pichu is in 24th place in the melee tier list. I just don’t get why they would bring a character that bad back. Granted they brought bowser and Kirby back but they were main characters (or villain in bowsers case) in popular games. Before ultimate came out pichu was only in melee so clearly he wasn’t that popular either.

 

[Teeb147]

Look all I’m saying is that pichu is in 24th place in the melee tier list. I just don’t get why they would bring a character that bad back. Granted they brought bowser and Kirby back but they were main characters (or villain in bowsers case) in popular games. Before ultimate came out pichu was only in melee so clearly he wasn’t that popular either.

Too late anyway. And lots of people like pichu in the game, so s'all good.

 

[Dyl@@@n40]

Too late anyway. And lots of people like pichu in the game, so s'all good.

Aight.