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Physics in Smash

kirbykid

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With so many games displaying impressive real time physics, and so many gamers demanding them, I thought it would be nice to take a little time to look at the “physics” in Melee. The Dojo updated with new information regarding barrels and crates. But what’s most interesting is the screen shot of Pikachu standing on top of the crate as it slid into Wario’s face.

<a href="http://smashboards.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/item03_070614e-l.jpg" title="Pika Box Rocks"><img src="http://smashboards.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/item03_070614e-l.jpg" alt="Pika Box Rocks" /></a>
This one image shows promise of new levels of how characters and objects interact in Brawl.

<!--more-->In melee the physics at work are most easily recognized when items roll or slide down slanted surfaces. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve used Kirby’s rock move on a platform knowing that I’ll slide off possibly doing more damage or escaping harm. Melee also keeps track of momentum. If you land on the edge of a platform or the edge of a stage from an air attack while moving horizontally, the character slides off the edge. Doing this cancels any lag from the move making it quite useful. The technique is called “edge canceling.”

Wavedashing is simply the momentum generated from air dodging that causes the character to slide upon connecting with the ground. If you wavedash to an edge of a platform and hold your shield, you can carry the momentum past the character’s center of gravity. The character then tumbles off the platform in a spiral. This can also happen after crouch canceling heavy hits, or after teching.

When Fox punches or Captain Falcon forward smashes their animation shows them taking a step forward. This step is more than just a cool animation. The game actually makes the character take a step foward as if they were walking and not attacking. If you repeat punches with Fox, you can make him walk forward advancing on your enemy. If you forward smash with Falcon and his front foot lands on an oil slick, he’ll slide forward at high speeds while smashing.

So now we can return to pikachu riding the crate. In melee, characters would simply walk through the crates. This is probably the result of the game being in 2D and having no way to make the character go around objects besides jumping. But now, it’s not unreasonable to say that instead of walking through crates, they’ll be solid objects to stand on or push. Keep in mind, Wario was hit by the crate and it didn’t explode. In melee, the first contact a moving crate encounters destroys it. I think it’s safe to say that Sakurai is adding such a level of detail into the game.

So what does this mean for Brawl? Maybe instead of passing through enemy characters, you can jump on them, or push them by running up against them. Maybe this time, characters won’t be able to attack through walls or other solid surfaces.

Maybe Brawl will even calculate stun and trajectory based on which direction you attack your opponents. If this happens, spikes will no longer send characters straight up. Instead characters would be crushed into the ground. Or moves like Falco’s forward smash won’t send you flying in the opposite upward direction. What if Captain Falcon’s Knee could only be used at maximum power if he got a running start throwing his momentum and direction into the equation.

What if the Ice Climbers’ ice breath could freeze the water on the Fountain of Dreams? There are already some examples of interaction on this level. For example, you can instantly thaw someone out of an ice block by using any fire attack in the game. What if in Brawl, if you continually hit someone with flame attacks, they took on more and more damage, and if they don’t put out the flames their movements would eventually slow down. What if pikachu could charge his electricity for any of his electric attacks, but they all shared the same electric reservoir? What if a strong enough shock could paralyze an opponent temporarily?

Next Gen has always meant more than just graphics and content. Attention to detail is what makes a game world seem more realistic than a picture perfect view. If the world don’t feel or act real, then it’s still fake. With Brawl I expect improvements in all areas, but especially these details.
 

Flyingsheep

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May 17, 2007
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Umm… just a side note, Melee is not in 2D. Neither is Smash 64. They’re just on a 2D grid, like Yoshi’s Story for the N64.
 
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Rupe

Guest
I like where your head is on this. The possibilities with improved physics are pretty exciting.

I think you might be a little overboard with the whole freezable/burnable properties, but the ideas about momentum (like with C.Falcon’s knee) are interesting.

Though on a different note, I’d be so sad if spikes could no longer bounce characters off the floor. It’s an acceptable kill strategy as well as a good (great?) setup/combo starter for many characters.
 

PrinnyFlute

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 20, 2007
Messages
331
I’d be more inclined to believe that things will remain much as they are in Melee with more physical interaction details hardcoded in, such as our friend Pikachu thar sittin’ on that crate.

Though, what you’re talking about (the game functioning almost entirely on an underlying physics system,) would definitely be a blast.
 
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GenkiDeNe

Guest
If you look reeeeeally closely at the picture you can spot wheels under the crate attatched to it, so it’s not really surprising that it slides xD

In the pic: Maybe ZSSamus just threw the crate with pikachu on it (or maybe he just jumped on it) and MAYBE because it’s a crate with wheels it doesn’t brake unless you destroy it by attacking it or fire projectiels on it.

I don’t think Brawl will feature a more advanced physics-engine than Melee, one thing that makes the SSB-series so great is because it’s crazy and non-logic, that’s the whole point of Smashing ;D
 

kirbykid

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I’m going to address each comment one at a time.

Flyingsheep:
I’m sorry but there is no way you can get around the fact that melee is a 2D fighter. Being on a 2D grid makes it 2D regardless of how the graphics are rendered. It’s true that the game calculates characters and hit boxes in 3D but they still only interact in the “slice” of 2D space.

Rupe:
Melting characters out of the frozen state is already in Melee. Just considering that this is in the game, the freezable/burnable properties becomes even more probable.
I don’t think it would be sad if spikes stop bouncing characters off the ground. A little bounce is fine, but being killed off the top of the screen is a little extreme (kind of like throws in Smash64).
Yes, they’re good combo starters, but only for the tiers anyway. It’s little things like this, coupled with their speed and power, that make tiers tiers.

PrinnyFlute:
I don’t know if you’re saying the game will change or will stay the same. There’s something about the way you worded it, so I can’t really comment. However, melee does run on an underlying physics system. All the examples I detailed lead tot his conclusion.

GenkiDeNe:
With the crate example alone, Brawl already has a more advance physics engine. If you’re not familiar with how game are created and coded, doing things like standing on crates is more complicated than it looks.

Your comment on “non-logic” isn’t completely accurate. Yes, games are expression that is often times crazy or exaggerated. But, in order to make a game world believable, it has to be rooted in ideas and rules from the real world. Even if you want to do crazy things like mid-air jumps, you have to still have the characters connected to ideas of space and gravity.

Even if we can’t predict all the happening in melee with 100% accuracy, we come pretty close most of the time. This allows the player to plan out their actions. Without this logic, the game wouldn’t be fun. It also wouldn’t be much of a game at all.
 

PrinnyFlute

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Joined
Mar 20, 2007
Messages
331
There’s a pretty big difference between hardcoded physical events and an all out physics engine. For the most part, Melee’s code tells the game outright how to do things. How things fall, how objects react, slide or roll. These are all seemingly done by /telling/ the game that they should slide, roll, or fall.

In a fully fleshed out physics engine, like many modern FPS’s, code monkies instead make the physics engine separate from on-the-fly code (or just buy one and modify it heavily,) and simply plug in variables like weight, bounciness and so on.

Most major Japanese developers haven’t started playing with actual 3D physics engines until pretty recently, and Melee was pretty far before that benchmark.

(Going off of this, I meant that in Melee, there wasn’t an underlying engine, just hardcoded events, and I think Brawl is going to be much the same with more events, instead of adopting a physics engine.)

I can kind of see what Genki is saying and agree with it to a degree. Hand-fashioned, hardcoded events just seems to be a bit more Sakurai — and Smash’s — style.
 

Flyingsheep

Smash Rookie
Joined
May 17, 2007
Messages
14
KirbyKid, it was just misleading how you said it. I know it’s on a 2D grid, I just always call a game either 2D or 3D based on how it’s rendered.
 
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Jammin

Guest
Those are really great ideas. Now Marth can’t hit me behind walls. This also would mean that it’ll be harder to sweet spot and ledge tech wouldn’t it since the characters can’t be IN the wall during their up B?
 

kirbykid

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Jammin:
In general sweet spotting has more to do with timing and spacing, than attacking through the sides of the stage.

Mario has a sweet spot that’s not hugging the stage.

Fox/Falco can aim their up+B’s diagonally down and sweet spot the edge.

Even if we can’t attack through the stage anymore, how we sweet spot will adjust accordingly.
 

Mic_128

Wake up...
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Plomid: Or stand on top of 52 crates and go for a ride :p
 
P

Proven

Guest
Um, it looks more like the crate is about to hit Wario, not that it bounced off of him. If it had hit him, whether or not it had exploded, Wario would have more than likely been knocked off the edge because of momentum from a large object. As in, it would have been like he was attacked from behind and should have been knocked off.
 

kirbykid

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Proven:
I think they captured the screen shot right before Wario flew away. That would seem to be the best place to take the shot.

Why would Wario look hurt otherwise.
 
J

Jammin

Guest
You’re right about sweet spotting but I’m still left wondering about ledge techs.
 
P

Proven

Guest
Kirbykid:
If that were the case, I’d think the crate would be exploding or going through some animation at the same time, and as consequence, Pikachu should have a different animation as well.

And to me, Wario doesn’t look hurt. Just from the videos and the recent character profile, Wario will already have many strange responses to moves. I’m personally thinking that the animation he’s sporting is the “woah! I’m about to fall off!” animation characters do when you walk up to the very end of a ledge, but right before you’d walk off. I think they were trying to show him running away from the crate, only to discover there’s a drop off behind him, whilst the crate is still coming at him.
 
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Super Smash Brothers Blog » Blog Archive » Wreakin

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[…] the possibility that Brawl was running a new physics engine. Or you might recall Kirbykid’s even earlier post about the huge implications that that might have for Brawl. Sakurai hasn’t confirmed anything […]
 
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