personal qeustion: How come people don't approve spacing/footsies in Smash bros?

[RanserSSF4]

I've seen several people comment that Spacing/footsie is boring to watch in Smash 4, therefore they think the game sucks because of that.

I don't think most realize this, but Melee had every aspect of old-school and modern fighting games; Footsies, spacing, camping, offensive, mix-ups and defensive options. I've played Melee competitively for years and I know Melee can get campy at times (Even in early tournaments before the game became what it is today, was mostly campy tournaments) and most players will either, depending on their character, camp(Fox, Falco, and Jigglypuff), go aggressive (Captain Falcon), or play spacing/footsies with the opponent (Marth).

Let me break it down;
- Wavedashing/dashdancing: A spacing/defensive/offensive option, depending on match-ups.
- L-cancel: Offensive Option
- Shield Stun: Promotes a Offensive/spacing options, depending on character choice.
- Shield: Defensive Option
- Projectiles and Gimping: Camping/Defensive Option

The Difference though, is that Melee to this day, promotes aggressive play and is the most rewarding option, making defensive options mostly useless (Unless you are playing JigglyPuff vs Fox).

Smash 4, to me ATM, is mostly a footsie/spacing game, and I don't think it's a bad thing. I personally like the game more than Brawl because of that since it plays more different than Brawl. True, there are some problems in Smash 4 that I think should get fixed, but again, there's nothing wrong with having Spacing/Footsies in Smash Bros. You do need these options if you're going to make a fighting game, regardless how different they are (Please, NO JOHNS).

NOTE: I don't want to raise an argument or a flame war (IF this thread does become either one, please close this thread down), I just want to personally ask people why most don't approve Spacing/Footsie in Smash 4, but don't mind it in Melee?

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

L-cancelling (or in other words, low-lag aerials because the fact that you have to hit L on landing is completely irrelevant to the effect on competitive play) is not inherently an offensive option. It also promotes spacing, as you can simply throw hitboxes to keep a foe away. It does definitely promote offence in that it makes offence safer to attempt and allows easier combos and follow-ups, I'll grant you that. Shield stun seems to me more like it promotes in-your-face offence over spacing, as it's high enough that many top characters can easily pressure shields without requiring particular spacing.

Wavedashing is roughly equivalent to rolling in Smash 4, plus variable distance and minus intangibility. In fact, I've often seen wavedashing used as a pseudo-sidestep dodge, wavedashing back out of the range of an opponent's attack and then immediately back into range to punish. (Are Melee's sidesteps really so terrible that you actually get a quicker punish by wavedashing out and back in than by sidestepping?)

As for "footsies", I'm perfectly cool with footsies in Smash. In some situations it's quite a bit more interesting to watch than actual offence. For example, the generic edgehog gimp at 70% that results from winning the neutral is often far less compelling than the neutral that leads up to it, at least in Melee. While the neutral is almost always different from match to match and moment to moment (unless it's dash-dancing for days in dittos matchups), after a few competitive matches involving that character or that matchup you've likely seen that exact KO method several times before. Plus, edgehog gimps (or even the foe simply getting launched offstage at a seemingly low velocity and failing to recover) somehow just aren't as compelling to watch as a hit sending a foe straight over the blast line at a ridiculous velocity. This is especially the case in Melee where recoveries are globally pretty weak compared to Brawl coupled with the very strong hitstun compared to Brawl.

 

[Conda]

I'd say, for me, one of the biggest factors that turn Smash 4 into more of a grounded game is airdodge lag. We did it so much in Brawl that the new landing lag discourages us from doing it in Smash 4 rightfully - landing is super easy to punish. It feels like I can much more easily punish someone when the land versus when they roll.

But also, we're playing on a 3ds here.

Also-also, Footsies is easier to do as there is only one axis to look at while dealing with the input lag from crappy nintendo wifi online play. Wii U - where a lot of pro players will have ethernet adapters and such - will promote 2-axis aerial play more I hope.

 

[RanserSSF4]

I'd say, for me, one of the biggest factors that turn Smash 4 into more of a grounded game is airdodge lag. We did it so much in Brawl that the new landing lag discourages us from doing it in Smash 4 rightfully - landing is super easy to punish. It feels like I can much more easily punish someone when the land versus when they roll.

But also, we're playing on a 3ds here.

Also-also, Footsies is easier to do as there is only one axis to look at while dealing with the input lag from crappy nintendo wifi online play. Wii U - where a lot of pro players will have ethernet adapters and such - will promote 2-axis aerial play more I hope.

I kind of hope so too. Can't wait to play this on Wii U where we will make the game faster.

 

[RanserSSF4]

L-cancelling (or in other words, low-lag aerials because the fact that you have to hit L on landing is completely irrelevant to the effect on competitive play) is not inherently an offensive option. It also promotes spacing, as you can simply throw hitboxes to keep a foe away. It does definitely promote offence in that it makes offence safer to attempt and allows easier combos and follow-ups, I'll grant you that. Shield stun seems to me more like it promotes in-your-face offence over spacing, as it's high enough that many top characters can easily pressure shields without requiring particular spacing.

Wavedashing is roughly equivalent to rolling in Smash 4, plus variable distance and minus intangibility. In fact, I've often seen wavedashing used as a pseudo-sidestep dodge, wavedashing back out of the range of an opponent's attack and then immediately back into range to punish. (Are Melee's sidesteps really so terrible that you actually get a quicker punish by wavedashing out and back in than by sidestepping?)

As for "footsies", I'm perfectly cool with footsies in Smash. In some situations it's quite a bit more interesting to watch than actual offence. For example, the generic edgehog gimp at 70% that results from winning the neutral is often far less compelling than the neutral that leads up to it, at least in Melee. While the neutral is almost always different from match to match and moment to moment (unless it's dash-dancing for days in dittos matchups), after a few competitive matches involving that character or that matchup you've likely seen that exact KO method several times before. Plus, edgehog gimps (or even the foe simply getting launched offstage at a seemingly low velocity and failing to recover) somehow just aren't as compelling to watch as a hit sending a foe straight over the blast line at a ridiculous velocity. This is especially the case in Melee where recoveries are globally pretty weak compared to Brawl coupled with the very strong hitstun compared to Brawl.

I wish some would read comments like yours. Your comment here is spot on on a lot topic. As much as I love Melee, it's not a perfect game, and I do have personal problems with the game.

 

[mimgrim]

Where are you getting that people don't like the footsie gameplay in smash Bros?

Personally, most of the characters I am enjoying playing the most in this game are mostly footsie orientated with only a few who aren't. It's extremely fun in this game.

 

[Jaxas]

Where are you getting that people don't like the footsie gameplay in smash Bros?

Personally, most of the characters I am enjoying playing the most in this game are mostly footsie orientated with only a few who aren't. It's extremely fun in this game.

There has been a lot of complaining about how much of the neutral game there is in Smash 4, as opposed to shifting often while being heavily in one player or the other's favor like it often is in Project/Melee.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

I'm honestly cool with Smash 4's neutral game. It feels very, very carefully balanced, and unlike as was so common in Brawl you actually get something resembling a reward for winning it.

 

[mimgrim]

There has been a lot of complaining about how much of the neutral game there is in Smash 4, as opposed to shifting often while being heavily in one player or the other's favor like it often is in Project/Melee.

I haven't seen those kinds of complaints, guess I'm not looking in the right places.

Though I don't exactly agree that Project M or Melee play out like that either.

But eh.

 

[RanserSSF4]

There has been a lot of complaining about how much of the neutral game there is in Smash 4, as opposed to shifting often while being heavily in one player or the other's favor like it often is in Project/Melee.

I completly understand that's based on others opinions. If they don't like the fact that Smash 4 is a footsie/spacing-type game, that's fine, they got the other games they can play instead, but I personally like how Smash 4 is right now!

 

[Her0Noi5e]

I feel like this game is focused a lot on the stage control and dominance then past tittles, and one good way to do that is to camp and space your opponent. Controlling the map is important, because sometimes when you lose it, you get punished for it, and that can be really bad.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

I feel like this game is focused a lot on the stage control and dominance then past tittles, and one good way to do that is to camp and space your opponent. Controlling the map is important, because sometimes when you lose it, you get punished for it, and that can be really bad.

Camping != footsies. Certainly, footsies and camping are both specific varieties of spacing and stage control, that's true, but the two are vitally distinct. I think the best way to explain "footsies" is that it's sort of like trying to camp while in or just outside melee reach of the opponent. Or perhaps camping could be explained as footsies, but from 10-20 metres away and poking with projectiles instead of jabs/tilts/smashes, and your goal is always to keep the foe away while poking with projectiles, unlike footsies where you might be trying to get in to hit them. (Some characters prefer to play keep-away in footsies as well, of course.)

 

[RanserSSF4]

Camping != footsies. Certainly, footsies and camping are both specific varieties of spacing and stage control, that's true, but the two are vitally distinct. I think the best way to explain "footsies" is that it's sort of like trying to camp while in or just outside melee reach of the opponent. Or perhaps camping could be explained as footsies, but from 10-20 metres away and poking with projectiles instead of jabs/tilts/smashes, and your goal is always to keep the foe away while poking with projectiles, unlike footsies where you might be trying to get in to hit them. (Some characters prefer to play keep-away in footsies as well, of course.)

Little Mac's Tilts/Smashes, if spaced right, can mostly be safe on block and are good kill moves.

 

[SmashBro99]

Well I think most people here haven't played a real fighting game, so they think things that are normal for actual fighting games are "cheap". Not an insult, just what I've seen.

People complain about others "doing the same combo a lot", these are called b&bs, or a bread and butter combo.

 

[RanserSSF4]

Well I think most people here haven't played a real fighting game, so they think things that are normal for actual fighting games are "cheap". Not an insult, just what I've seen.

People complain about others "doing the same combo a lot", these are called b&bs, or a bread and butter combo.

I honestly agree with the Bread and Butter combo part you mentioned. Every character has at least one Bread and Butter (B&B) combo. The insane, hype combos in Melee were possible with L-canceling, SHFF, and more. If they weren't in Melee, the insane combos wouldn't be possible!

That's also a problem I have with the community. Most just only want insane combos in Smash Bros after the experience in Melee. I do like the combos in Melee, but as I mentioned, they are only possible because of the mechanics/glitches. I've always been more fond of spacing/mix-ups. they mostly lead to hype moments and they are mostly start off combos or more mix-ups.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Well I think most people here haven't played a real fighting game, so they think things that are normal for actual fighting games are "cheap". Not an insult, just what I've seen.

People complain about others "doing the same combo a lot", these are called b&bs, or a bread and butter combo.

Well, to be fair, when I watch things like Street Fighter a lot of things that probably are normal definitely do look cheap. For example, someone throwing a Super and getting it stuffed by a light punch at what looks like the exact frame the Super's initial hit came out (but is probably the exact frame before it). (But that's because I'm used to Final Smashes, which have invincible startup, and Mystic Artes from the Tales series which all either have invincible startup or are guaranteed follow-ups from a previous attack.) Also, Street Fighter animations look really choppy to me. Even in the more recent 3D games, I sometimes have a hard time telling where exactly the hit comes out on a move or where exactly the hitbox is (or where the characters' hurtboxes are), or what the first vulnerable frame of get-up is when there's no invincibility/intangibility flashing like in Smash Bros.

Something else that always looks wrong to me is seeing a Super get blocked, or seeing a Super go through its entire animation even when the initial hit whiffs completely, or seeing someone escape a Super mid-move after being hit initially. Again, these are hold-overs from my time with Brawl (unblockable Final Smashes that are invincible on startup), Naruto: Clash of Ninja 2 (unblockable Secret Jutsus that stop instantly if the initial hit is dodged, but guarantee the full attack if the initial hit connects), and the Tales series (Mystic Artes that, depending on the game, either have invincible and unblockable startup hits that lead into the full move, or guarantee the entire sequence upon hitting a previous attack).

 

[Snakeyes]

Footsies aren't as exciting in Smash because the game offers a huge amount of mobility compared to a traditional fighter. Losing a footsies exchange in Street Fighter often means you getting cornered or at least put in a disadvantageous position. In Smash, you can easily platform, roll or up/side-B your way back to safety.

In a high level Street Fighter match, you usually need no more than 5 to 7 good reads or mix-ups to build enough momentum to win a round. How many successful reads are needed to take a stock in Brawl or Smash 4, let alone win a game?

 

[RanserSSF4]

Footsies aren't as exciting in Smash because the game offers a huge amount of mobility compared to a traditional fighter. Losing a footsies exchange in Street Fighter often means you getting cornered or at least put in a disadvantageous position. In Smash, you can easily platform, roll or up/side-B your way back to safety.

In a high level Street Fighter match, you usually need no more than 5 to 7 good reads or mix-ups to build enough momentum to win a round. How many successful reads are needed to take a stock in Brawl or Smash 4, let alone win a game?

You make a good valid point. Mobility is important in Smash Bros. While Smash 4 does offer more movement options than Brawl, it doesn't offer as much as Melee's. The problem about them at the moment, is that they are extremely hard to do on the 3DS. As I mentioned, you do make a good valid point and I agree, but I still don't think having footsies is a bad thing. You need those options in every fighting game, regardless of how different they are. Smash Bros is a great example of this!

 

[Snakeyes]

As you've said, it's not like footsies are new to the series - they've been a fundamental part of being a good player since 64. I just feel that Melee (sans Fox and Falco's shine pressure) had the best balance between the neutral and punish game we've seen so far.

 

[shapular]

As you've said, it's not like footsies are new to the series - they've been a fundamental part of being a good player since 64. I just feel that Melee (sans Fox and Falco's shine pressure) had the best balance between the neutral and punish game we've seen so far.

I don't think there's a cut-and-dry perfect balance between the neutral game and punish game. It's all player preference, which is why we have things like Marvel vs. Capcom on one end and Divekick on the other. Melee was still pretty heavily skewed towards the punish game, and Brawl was obviously heavily skewed towards neutral. I think Smash 4 has a good balance. It has sort of a Brawl-esque netural, except with some actual safe options for approaching, with a stronger punish game due to the presence of hitstun and how hard it is to land or get off the ledge safely.

 

[otter]

The issue is that sm4sh is ONLY footsies/reads. In other of fighting games, that's only an aspect. In Street Fighter 4, you have a similar slow gameplay footsie style, but once someone gains an advantage, they're going to do a 40% combo and continue pressure from the knockdown. They feel rewarded for succeeding in the nuetral game.

In Sm4sh, you earn a hit, go for a followup, bait their airdodge and hope they don't spike you during your wait. It leaves me feeling like "why bother? I should really just be camping..."

 

[Road Death Wheel]

The issue is that sm4sh is ONLY footsies/reads. In other of fighting games, that's only an aspect. In Street Fighter 4, you have a similar slow gameplay footsie style, but once someone gains an advantage, they're going to do a 40% combo and continue pressure from the knockdown. They feel rewarded for succeeding in the nuetral game.

In Sm4sh, you earn a hit, go for a followup, bait their airdodge and hope they don't spike you during your wait. It leaves me feeling like "why bother? I should really just be camping..."

lol if your able to get punished when baiting your not baiting correctly.

 

[shapular]

The issue is that sm4sh is ONLY footsies/reads. In other of fighting games, that's only an aspect. In Street Fighter 4, you have a similar slow gameplay footsie style, but once someone gains an advantage, they're going to do a 40% combo and continue pressure from the knockdown. They feel rewarded for succeeding in the nuetral game.

In Sm4sh, you earn a hit, go for a followup, bait their airdodge and hope they don't spike you during your wait. It leaves me feeling like "why bother? I should really just be camping..."

This is sort of true in Brawl (albeit an oversimplification), but it's not true in Smash 4, at least not for a lot of characters. There are definitely combos in this game (and don't even try to say there aren't because it's been proven), and even without combos it's a lot easier to follow up than in Brawl since air dodge isn't OP. You're trying to present a false dichotomy where the only possible options for Smash are camping and crazy insane combos when you win neutral. It's still possible for the game to offer enough of a reward for winning neutral without having long, guaranteed combos. I think Smash 4 does that well enough.

 

[otter]

This is sort of true in Brawl (albeit an oversimplification), but it's not true in Smash 4, at least not for a lot of characters. There are definitely combos in this game (and don't even try to say there aren't because it's been proven), and even without combos it's a lot easier to follow up than in Brawl since air dodge isn't OP. You're trying to present a false dichotomy where the only possible options for Smash are camping and crazy insane combos when you win neutral. It's still possible for the game to offer enough of a reward for winning neutral without having long, guaranteed combos. I think Smash 4 does that well enough.

maybe like under 50%, and I do feel like the better player wins pretty often until that point. I don't see how it's different from brawl for the other 80% of the match.

 

[D-idara]

Some people seem to think that spacing game/footsies is boring to watch, eh! THEIR LOSS! For me, spacing/footsies as the players duke it out and try to find openings is one of the most exciting parts of a match.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

maybe like under 50%, and I do feel like the better player wins pretty often until that point. I don't see how it's different from brawl for the other 80% of the match.

Well, it's definitely true that there are some characters who want to keep the neutral game/footsies going for as long as possible, without necessarily even camping. Many sword-wielding characters play a bit like this, and the Mii Swordfighter plays a lot like this. Swordfighter = footsies for life! That said, there are also characters who excel in ending footsies as fast as possible and comboing/stringing the **** out of you. A minimum-size Mii Brawler can true-combo 3 UTilts, or UTilt into short hop rising UAir. There's also DThrow > Ultimate Uppercut and DTilt > Ultimate Uppercut as true combos.

 

[otter]

Well, it's definitely true that there are some characters who want to keep the neutral game/footsies going for as long as possible, without necessarily even camping. Many sword-wielding characters play a bit like this, and the Mii Swordfighter plays a lot like this. Swordfighter = footsies for life! That said, there are also characters who excel in ending footsies as fast as possible and comboing/stringing the **** out of you. A minimum-size Mii Brawler can true-combo 3 UTilts, or UTilt into short hop rising UAir. There's also DThrow > Ultimate Uppercut and DTilt > Ultimate Uppercut as true combos.

Right. You do that combo once an then play 3 minutes of who can land the first raw up smash.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I pretend to wavedash in this game with instant pivot cancel tilts / smashes in this game, or do it out of a short hop. Footsies are still pretty solid, but sometimes that gets boring. A little more hitstun would definitely do this game justice, but some characters can do some nice true combos.

With Peach I can D-tilt > Float Dair > Uair > UpB and all of the hits connect.

Falcon can strong Uairs, and SH Dair > Knee actually works like in Melee.

Greninja can SH Nair > U-tilt > U- smash > Uair

He can also Dash attack > Fair / Usmash ( low percents) with U smash leading into Uair.

D-tilt > F-tilt is a nice ground combo.

A lot of characters have some combos in this game, but if this game had a little more stun ( and maybe platform canceling) it would be great. Fingers crossed for the Wii U version / patches?

There is also some custom equipment that makes this game feel like Melee, like an item that allows you to retain lateral momentum from a run into a jump, which can lead to better offensive mix ups and making use of the ability to break shields easier in this game.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Right. You do that combo once an then play 3 minutes of who can land the first raw up smash.

No, actually. Mii Brawler can KO by pressuring a foe offstage and landing a BAir; or can shove a foe offstage with an FThrow (for example) and air-chase them over the horizontal blast line with FAir strings (unreliable — especially on CPUs — since it requires very good positioning and like 3 solid reads but really satisfying when it works) or follow up with a Helicopter Kick; or juggle with UAirs and string into a Helicopter Kick; send a foe into the air, bait the air-dodge and KO with aerial Onslaught; Super Armour a foe's attack and KO with Ultimate Uppercut; or, yes, a hard read with a dashing Up Smash works as well. Dashing into a raw Ultimate Uppercut is sometimes a good trick as well since the move has super armour from like the 3rd or 4th frame of startup until the hitbox comes out. At higher percents (~140%) if the foe attempts a raw running USmash (lol) you can just sidestep dodge and immediately DSmash since it comes out pretty quick and its short range really isn't likely to be an issue if they're fishing with USmashes. At higher percents (~140%) Onslaught on a hard read of a back roll works just as well as a dashing USmash and is also slightly safer. And if the foe isn't paying proper attention, at certain percents you can gimp them with a Feint Jump divekick into a footstool offstage and just watch them plummet. If your opponent is really stupid about this whole "recovering" thing they might even let you Meteor Smash them with DAir. The Mii Brawler is not lacking in ways to put a foe in a disadvantageous position, nor is it lacking in ways to KO a foe who is in such a position.

As for damage output after your true combos no longer work, you can just juggle with UAirs, or land the weak hit of NAir and try for a grab, or poke at them with Feint Jump if they're not on the ground. Also you have a rapid jab, use it.

 

[otter]

You're not helping.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I feel like this game is focused a lot on the stage control and dominance then past tittles, and one good way to do that is to camp and space your opponent. Controlling the map is important, because sometimes when you lose it, you get punished for it, and that can be really bad.

Smash has always been about stage control. Why else do Brawl Metaknight and Melee Fox/Falco/Sheik get all the grabs in their games? It's because they have the best stage control in the game, period.

One of the good things about Smash 4 is that grab reward has universally been nerfed considerably. One of the problems Smash Bros usually has is that grabs are extremely polarizing due to how stage control options and a lack of throw teching create really poor counterplay against dominant grab setups. Since virtually everyone struggles to break 17% off a grab in this game, that makes grabs much less fundamentally unfair in this game.

 

[RanserSSF4]

Sorry for the late reply guys. For whatever reason, my laptop wouldn't let me access anything on Smashboards so I left for a couple days.

Been reading your guys comments, and I do get your points;

- Footsies/spacing is definitly not going to appeal to everyone, but I personally like how the game is now because of this.

- As @ JamietheAuraUser said, sword fighters are great at spacing, most namely, Marth, and he's always been good in every smash game because of that.

 

[shapular]

Right. You do that combo once an then play 3 minutes of who can land the first raw up smash.

How free do you need your KOs to be? Do you need to literally be able to combo jab into one of the most powerful kill moves in the game like Fox in Melee? It's not a bad thing that you have to work a little bit for KOs in this game. It's definitely not as bad as you're making it out to be though.

 

[Zork]

Smash 4, to me ATM, is mostly a footsie/spacing game, and I don't think it's a bad thing. I personally like the game more than Brawl because of that since it plays more different than Brawl. True, there are some problems in Smash 4 that I think should get fixed, but again, there's nothing wrong with having Spacing/Footsies in Smash Bros. You do need these options if you're going to make a fighting game, regardless how different they are (Please, NO JOHNS).

Brawl is also a mostly footsie/spacing game. In fact the game has more options for spacing overall than Smash 4 right now since more things can be autocancelled and there is less overall landing lag because of it.

So how exactly is this drastically different from Brawl?

You guys also go and on about how more focus on the neutral game isn't a bad thing...but then will turn around and say it's nothing like Brawl and that Brawl sucks. It's incredibly ironic how often people do this.

Let me ask you your own question. If you approve of spacing/footsies in Smash 4 why did you mind it in Brawl?

Edit: How on earth is gimping a defensive option? Statements like that make it hard to believe you played any Smash game at a competitive level. You sound more like a SF player trying to get into Smash seriously for the first time.

You make a good valid point. Mobility is important in Smash Bros. While Smash 4 does offer more movement options than Brawl, it doesn't offer as much as Melee's. The problem about them at the moment, is that they are extremely hard to do on the 3DS. As I mentioned, you do make a good valid point and I agree, but I still don't think having footsies is a bad thing. You need those options in every fighting game, regardless of how different they are. Smash Bros is a great example of this!

Name some movement options in Smash4 the entire cast can utilize that didn't exist in Brawl.

 

[SuaveChaser]

Another smash 4 circle jerk thread :/

 

[Conda]

Brawl is also a mostly footsie/spacing game. In fact the game has more options for spacing overall than Smash 4 right now since more things can be autocancelled and there is less overall landing lag because of it.

So how exactly is this drastically different from Brawl?

You guys also go and on about how more focus on the neutral game isn't a bad thing...but then will turn around and say it's nothing like Brawl and that Brawl sucks. It's incredibly ironic how often people do this.

Let me ask you your own question. If you approve of spacing/footsies in Smash 4 why did you mind it in Brawl?

Edit: How on earth is gimping a defensive option? Statements like that make it hard to believe you played any Smash game at a competitive level. You sound more like a SF player trying to get into Smash seriously for the first time.




Name some movement options in Smash4 the entire cast can utilize that didn't exist in Brawl.

I agree with most of this post, but have to correct a couple of your points.

"Brawl is also a mostly footsie/spacing game. In fact the game has more options for spacing overall than Smash 4 right now since more things can be autocancelled and there is less overall landing lag because of it.
So how exactly is this drastically different from Brawl?"

I'd say mostly the reduction in floatiness for many characters, addition of more hitstun, and general balancing of the cast makes footsies a very different affair in Smash 4. More characters have a powerful footsies game now, which is a big change. And it can usually lead to a combo or at least read-chain, both thanks to the moveset alterations to the entire cast as well as small mechanics changes. You can follow up more not really because Brawl is 'so different' from Smash 4, but because Smash 4 added a few tweaks.

Ledge mechanics also make returning to the stage a core part of combat. You lose invincibility, which forces you to return, and this makes the on-stage footsies game in Smash 4 happen more frequently as a result. There is no longer a long pause in combat when someone hits a ledge, as you are forced to make options in Smash 4 due to mechanics changes.

"Name some movement options in Smash4 the entire cast can utilize that didn't exist in Brawl."

Dash dancing, foxtrots, pivots, and such are options that would be punished by the game's engine. Initiating a dash would give you a % chance to trip, and thus those movement options were discouraged.

Footsies also became less popular due to that dash-initiate-trip mechanic, as it'd mean you'd randomly lose a footsies battle. Thus we took it to the air more often iirc, and airdodging to land having no lag made it safe to do so.

 

[otter]

Increased hitstun is sort of misleading because you will almost always be off screen whenever in hitstun.

I'll also say that one thing Brawl footsies had going for it is ranged attacks. Things like MK forward smash and dk forward tilt don't really exist in sm4sh.

 

[Zork]

I agree with most of this post, but have to correct a couple of your points.




I'd say mostly the reduction in floatiness for many characters, addition of more hitstun, and general balancing of the cast makes footsies a very different affair in Smash 4. More characters have a powerful footsies game now, which is a big change. And it can usually lead to a combo or at least read-chain, both thanks to the moveset alterations to the entire cast as well as small mechanics changes. You can follow up more not really because Brawl is 'so different' from Smash 4, but because Smash 4 added a few tweaks.

1. Floatiness does not affect ground footsies which are almost identical in both games as the options are mostly the same. The only real difference is rolls are better (which makes playing footsies harder) and pivot tilts (which also existed in Brawl to some extent but were much harder to do). As for air footsies, again...more moves seem to autocancel in Brawl. Which is much more important than how floaty the game is.

Oh and amount of hitstun has nothing to do with footsies.


2. It can also lead into a combo or read-chain in Brawl. Are you aware Brawl had more true combo potential on the ground than Smash 4 thanks to characters like Diddy Kong and ZSS? These characters got combos on the ground that were 100% guaranteed. Half the combos you see for Smash 4 right now can be DIed/vectored out of.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Smash 4 players that clearly don't know much about Brawl telling me options that existed in Brawl.

As for your second point about the EXACT same movement options in Brawl not counting because of tripping, that's absurd. People still chose these options at high level play regardless of tripping.

That's like saying Luma punishes everything you do to Rosalina on hit so approaching is always bad in Smash 4.

 

[Conda]

1. Floatiness does not affect ground footsies which are almost identical in both games as the options are mostly the same.

2. It can also lead into a combo or read-chain in Brawl. Are you aware Brawl had more ture combo potential on the ground than Smash 4 thanks to characters like Diddy Kong and ZSS?

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Smash 4 players that clearly don't know much about Brawl telling me options that existed since Brawl.

As for your second point about the EXACT same movement options in Brawl not counting because of tripping, that's absurd. People still chose these options at high level play regardless of tripping.

That's like saying Luma punishes everything you do to Rosalina on hit so approaching is always bad in Smash 4.

Wait what? I clearly said that, since the cast in general has been buffed, more characters can parttake in good footsies battles. Saying "Diddy and ZSS has better footsies game in Brawl" is correct, but I already knew that. But more characters can parttake in footsies now, which is a big difference.

And ground-combos are not a required part of footsies. Lack of floatiness brings people back to the ground quicker. Landing lag when airdodging is a huge deal and makes landing much riskier.

As for your second point about the EXACT same movement options in Brawl not counting because of tripping, that's absurd. People still chose these options at high level play regardless of tripping.

I did not say they didnt' count', I said they were discouraged. Which they were. This is a very fresh-in-memory thing and everyone is very aware of it as one of the most defining features of Brawl. Tripping didn't make those movement options worse, it made them risky, which made them unwise to use over other similar options. Thus they got used less in high-level play. I'm not sure how you could be saying high-level Brawl play included as much dash-dancing, foxtrotting, and pivots as Smash 4 currently. Definitely and factually not the case.

And you said people still chose to foxtrot and dash dance at high levels -- No they didn't. They played more aerially-focused characters or characters that could play footsies and still dominate if they tripped due to inherent power and their own tripping/stunning mechanics (ie Diddy or ZSS, as you already pointed out). Falco and Dedede and Snake (etc etc) didn't rely on dash dances or quick ground movement.

Same with Marth- his ground game is less safe than his air game in brawl - the opposite in Smash 4, which is something marth/lucina players are learning to adapt to. Heck, a LOT of the changes players are trying to adapt to is how many of their mains have a strengthened footsties game and a weakened air/spam/grab game. Falco, Ness, ZSS, and Marth are prime examples. This wouldn't be the case if Brawl and Smash 4 didn't have big changes between them.


Many people rightfully prefer Smash 4's footsies game as it is more balanced. You won't get chaingrabbed or laser-stun-locked or anything like that. It's more about actually tossing punches and trying to create opportunities and openings. There's less cheese (ie infinite diddy bananas, stun chains by ZSS, cg-spike Falco combos), and more variation due to how many characters can actually be a thread in close-range ground combat.

 

[Zork]

I haven't seen any significant dash dancing by anyone in Smash 4 yet. Though it could be due to the 3DS.

You keep ignoring that more aerials could be autocancelled at least from what I've seen so far in Brawl. SH aerials are also footsy tools so this is very significant. If anything this largely nerfs Marth's footsy game to use your own example.

Anyway the original post said there were more options. Saying they were discouraged doesn't mean Smash 4 brings new options to the table. At most you could say it improves old ones. Though again, that isn't really the case.

Yeah there's no cheese in Smash 4's neutral game. Luma punishing you on hit is a great mechanic. So is Lucario getting insanely buffed everytime he gets hit. Oh and shields being better than ever is also ideal (we all know they were too poor in Brawl!).