Personal Matchup List

[DeliciousDarren]

I encourage you to make your own, and compare and contrast each others entries. Naturally, this thread will be tailored for Mario mains. My personal list is tailored for For Glory as that is my primary source of competitive play.

Remember: The characters higher on the list will be the ones you have the most trouble with. My placings are made without customs put into consideration.

S:
A:
B:
C:
D:

Any questions? I'll be glad to explain why I put characters where I did. Misplacement is also possible; however, this is a general synopsis.

After user discussion, the following changes have been made

1) Changed "Personal Tier List" to "Personal Matchup List" to better reflect the intention of the thread.
2) Removed "Conventional tier lists are odd to me. Is the average player supposed to believe that a character higher in the list is objectively better than all other fighters below him or her? I personally do not believe this is entirely true even if it has merit, and I have an idea as to what my personal match-up list would be." Removed to limit nonconstructive argumentation.
3) Added mention of For Glory to help the user understand where my placements come from.

 

[Seal]

The reason that tier lists are accurate is because they contain the opinions of many very experienced players who have matchup data at their hands with which to make the list.

Any tier list based on "the ones you have most trouble with" are inaccurate because you are attempting to base character objectivity against your (and only your) playstyle and character choice.

 

[DeliciousDarren]

The intention is to understand the general collection of issues that are specific to Mario mains. From my understanding, your implication is that everyone above Mario on the professional tier list should win every time on a technical scale, while the opposite is true for those below him. Even if this is correct, it is missing the point.

These personal lists are not necessarily intended to be technically accurate, and should be used as a way to spark discussion about why the specific character match ups are so difficult. Let me attempt to clarify if I am not being clear.

What would the tier list look like to you if it was restructured in respect to your rather in respect to all fighters? Naturally, there is no need to participate if you do not want to.

 

[Seal]

I don't see the need to call something detailing only mario a "tier list". Using that term can misconstrue your intentions to cover all characters. It's much easier to simply call it a "matchup chart".

Also, nobody believes that higher tiered characters win every time. They simply have an advantage compared to other characters. Oftentimes a character lower than another may have an advantageous matchup due to the nature of the character's basic playstyle.

I only responded to your parts that directly spoke to me. I think that polling opinions on a Mario matchup chart is a terrific idea.

 

[DeliciousDarren]

I don't see the need to call something detailing only mario a "tier list". Using that term can misconstrue your intentions to cover all characters. It's much easier to simply call it a "matchup chart".

I agree completely. I regretted it the minute I saw your post.

 

[KenMeister]

Conventional tier lists are odd to me. Is the average player supposed to believe that a character higher in the list is objectively better than all other fighters below him or her? I personally do not believe this is entirely true even if it has merit, and I have an idea as to what my personal tier list would be. I encourage you to make your own, and compare and contrast each others entries. Naturally, this thread will be tailored for Mario mains.

Remember: The characters higher on the list will be the ones you have the most trouble with. My placings are made without customs put into consideration.

S:
A:
B:
C:
D:

Any questions? I'll be glad to explain why I put characters where I did. Misplacement is also possible; however, this is a general synopsis.

I stopped reading as soon as I saw Little Mac in S tier.

 

[Derpiology]

I don't know if it's because the overall skill of most Mario mains I smash with is pretty low, but I usually win by using Jigglypuff against Mario.

 

[aquaticpineapples]

My thoughts:

Little Mac in S is ridiculous. Back throw at edge + Fully charged F.L.U.D.D kills at 0%. It couldnt be easier to gimp Mac.

I actually dont have any problems with Greninja, I cant see what he has against Mario.

Jigglypuff for me is not exactly the easiest matchup. Fireballs dont really do much to stop her approach

Thats a pretty large B tier. Are you sure you dont want to break the tiers down more?

Other than that nothing seems completely out of place.

 

[DeliciousDarren]

I understand peoples' confusion with those entries and I greatly appreciate the discussion.

Here are my arguments for


Coming from a For Glory perspective, this matchup can either be the easiest match, or one of the most difficult. I assume the matchup is much easier using tournament maps.

Proficient Little Macs are careful not to get in Mario's grab range. Generally, Mario has to make hard reads in order to successfully grab the boxer. Mario has strong aerial approaches for most matchups; however, Little Mac can easily stuff most of Mario's approaches with his superarmor and retaliate much harder. When Mario is approaching from the ground, Little Mac can utilize his fast and far reaching tilts and smashes to ensure Mario does not get close. If Mario is attempting to be defensive, Little Mac can run in, use his exceptional speed to out maneuver / bait Mario, and if he attacks with any of his moves, his low end lag can make punishing difficult. Finally, he can cover Mario's landings with his speed and superarmor smashes.

Defensively, expert Little Mac players will airdodge the Fludd entirely at low to mid percents and their Up B can be difficult to punish as they are attempting to get back on. If not careful, Mario's combo strings can be completely interrupted with his counter, as well as any hard reads for smashes. I have also seen one instance of a Little Mac that heavily used footstooling to his advantage while Mario was off the stage. Unfortunately, Little Mac is one of the characters that can leave me feeling significantly discouraged at times.


The massive issue with Greninja is how low to the ground he reaches. All of Mario's aerial approaches and defenses become more difficult to land on this character due to his low body. Adding his ability to use disjointed hitboxes to punish, he is challenging to deal with. Most skilled Greninjas will use his uncharged neutral B to stuff Mario's approaches, and caping it does not seem to help if the Greninja is spaced correctly. The water ninja also has fair speed to cover landings, does not allow Mario to combo him / her easily, and can resist being grabbed for the most part.


For this matchup, I have most likely not played the best of Jigglypuff's and doing so will change my perspective. However, from my online experience, Jiggly has a hard time getting in on Mario. Mario's Fludd can push Jiggly back while he / she is attempting to approach mario in midair, and his Up Smash can make it difficult for the Pokemon to land hits. While Jiggly is on the ground, his / her speed makes it easier for Mario to space. Jiggly also has a relatively high amount of ending lag on many of her moves making it possible for Mario to punish.

Jigglypuff must approach due to lack of a ranged move, and most Jigglypuffs are highly predictable. Up Smash being Mario's most potent kill move, Jiggly will have to respect that when at a high percentage.

I look forward to any agreements or disagreements. Your opinions have my respect.

 

[HeroMystic]

I understand peoples' confusion with those entries and I greatly appreciate the discussion.

Here are my arguments for

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPOntBXIphk

 

[DeliciousDarren]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPOntBXIphk

Atomsk vs. Nyani
Bwett vs. Jumpman

While the two videos above are not decisive victories, they illustrate how difficult Little Mac can be, especially on flat stages / in a For Glory setting. To be fair to Jumpman, I noticed another video where he destroyed Bwett in the same match up.

 

[HeroMystic]

Those videos are incredibly irrelevant.

 

[DeliciousDarren]

Those videos are incredibly irrelevant.

Forgive me, but how?

 

[HeroMystic]

Forgive me, but how?

3DS era, game is new, people hardly know how to play MUs, and further beyond that, the patches in place are not in place (for instance, Mario was pretty bad during the 3DS days due to vertical vectoring).

You can see the drastic change in style Nyani takes to combat Mac from what you've posted to the video I have posted, which was literally one month ago. Nyani played that MU pretty terribly back then (I stopped watching when she was charging D-Smash, that's how bad it was). The focus of the MU is not to play neutral vs Little Mac, but to avoid playing neutral vs him altogether, which is 100% consistently doable as Mario thanks to Mac's bad aerials and Mario's great air juggles and B-throw.

The only reason why I posted that video and nothing else is because Nyani played that MU very well, as many Marios don't understand the reason why Mario hard counters Little Mac is because he can gimp him 100% of the time when he's off-stage and he never has to take him on during neutral, which is all Little Mac has.

 

[DeliciousDarren]

3DS era, game is new, people hardly know how to play MUs, and further beyond that, the patches in place are not in place (for instance, Mario was pretty bad during the 3DS days due to vertical vectoring).

You can see the drastic change in style Nyani takes to combat Mac from what you've posted to the video I have posted, which was literally one month ago. Nyani played that MU pretty terribly back then (I stopped watching when she was charging D-Smash, that's how bad it was). The focus of the MU is not to play neutral vs Little Mac, but to avoid playing neutral vs him altogether, which is 100% consistently doable as Mario thanks to Mac's bad aerials and Mario's great air juggles and B-throw.

The only reason why I posted that video and nothing else is because Nyani played that MU very well, as many Marios don't understand the reason why Mario hard counters Little Mac is because he can gimp him 100% of the time when he's off-stage and he never has to take him on during neutral, which is all Little Mac has.

Did you get to the final destination part? How would you avoid neutral in that situation? As far as relevance goes, the videos display a lot of the things I mentioned in my post (for instance, he uses his superarmor to hit through fireballs and airdodges the fludd in midair). Even if you don't agree with it, I wouldn't say it is irrelevant.

I completely agree on the vectoring. I forgot about that change. I am also willing to negotiate Mac to be less on the threat scale.

 

[HeroMystic]

Did you get to the final destination part?

If you're fighting a little mac, you ban FD.

Even then, Mario wins on FD anyway.

 

[DeliciousDarren]

If you're fighting a little mac, you ban FD.

Even then, Mario wins on FD anyway.

I'd like some insight on that then if he does. Exactly how does Mario play so that he has the advantage on FD. Specifically, I would like to understand how he wins against a proficient Mac player on For Glory, which was noted on the original post that you quoted.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Specifically, I would like to understand how he wins against a proficient Mac player on For Glory

F.L.U.D.D, Cape, back air, neutral air, back throw. I could go on.

 

[BSP]

If you get stuck on FD with him, you're going to have to outplay him normally. His neutral game is fierce, but Mario gets so much more reward from anything that he lands compared to what Mac gets. If Mac hits you, you're going to take some % or die if you were sufficiently damaged. Barring that, you'll probably be back to neutral in a few seconds.

If Mario hits or grabs him, Mac can get combo'd pretty hard or put into a 50/50 that means death if Mario picks right. The combos usually end with Mac in disadvantage, giving you a good shot to do it again.

Edit: referencing the video Hero posted, at :52, that little stray hit could've led to so much more if Nyani had chosen to rush at Mac and grab instead of shield.

I would stick to smart shield use (end lag on Mac's grab is pretty bad, abuse it), using Fsmash to tag Mac's hands when he inevitably Ftilts or tries to outspace you in general. Go for grabs to beat SA, and combo him hard off of any stray hit you land. Oh, up B out of rapid jab.

I don't think it's free for Mario on FD, but it's still in his favor. I'll admit that I haven't played the MU as Mario in a while because I usually go Pac-Man and laugh at how badly trampoline hinders Mac. Due to general stage selection in tournaments though, I think Mario : Mac can go to 80:20 or worse. If Mario doesn't get stuck on FD and plays the MU correctly, Mac gets destroyed.

 

[The21stSmasher]

Can somebody explain the match-up for me? I kinda need a edge here.

 

[DeliciousDarren]

I would stick to smart shield use (end lag on Mac's grab is pretty bad, abuse it), using Fsmash to tag Mac's hands when he inevitably Ftilts or tries to outspace you in general. Go for grabs to beat SA, and combo him hard off of any stray hit you land. Oh, up B out of rapid jab.

I love these ideas. I will definitely attempt to implement them into my play and I will tell the thread of my results. Thanks for the ideas BSP.

Can somebody explain the match-up for me? I kinda need a edge here.

SilentSpectre vs. Rice
The above video demonstrates Mario's exceptional combo abilities against Captain Falcon. Short hopped u-air strings can be started from u-tilt strings which can potentially lead to a meteor smash among other moves. Practice making the most of Mario's combos when an attack lands on Captain Falcon (CF). Be careful, because Captain Falcon has a strong air combo game of his own (ex. u-air strings).

I was looking for some threads around here that discuss the matchup, but its difficult to find a dedicated location. Unfortunately, the Captain Falcon board does not have many good discussions on the subject either. For now check out the below threads.
First page of MU Thread
Mario Hotel Page

Remember
1) Capitalize on combos
2) Back air when CF is attempting to approach (Watch the video to see what I mean. Switch it up when it becomes predictable).
3) If the CF is using his range against you, it can put you in a bad position. Bait him in and punish him accordingly (ex. using fireballs at a safe distance).

I'll leave the most of the expert matchup advice to those more experienced with it.

 

[ArikadoSD]

Tier lists are supposed to be a resource available for everyone to see and yes, the character on top should be objectively better than everything beneath them. I don't understand why that logic is hard for you to understand or accept. It's just a resource in the end, and it's supposed to be as objective as possible. Making a tier list based on characters you have problems against is extremely subjective and beats the purpose of a tier list entirely, because to other people it would literally be worthless.

 

[DeliciousDarren]

Tier lists are supposed to be a resource available for everyone to see and yes, the character on top should be objectively better than everything beneath them. I don't understand why that logic is hard for you to understand or accept. It's just a resource in the end, and it's supposed to be as objective as possible. Making a tier list based on characters you have problems against is extremely subjective and beats the purpose of a tier list entirely, because to other people it would literally be worthless.

We have already discussed this, and changes will be made to the thread to better reflect the intention. I refer you to earlier in the thread.

 

[FrankTheStud]

3DS era, game is new, people hardly know how to play MUs, and further beyond that, the patches in place are not in place (for instance, Mario was pretty bad during the 3DS days due to vertical vectoring).

You can see the drastic change in style Nyani takes to combat Mac from what you've posted to the video I have posted, which was literally one month ago. Nyani played that MU pretty terribly back then (I stopped watching when she was charging D-Smash, that's how bad it was). The focus of the MU is not to play neutral vs Little Mac, but to avoid playing neutral vs him altogether, which is 100% consistently doable as Mario thanks to Mac's bad aerials and Mario's great air juggles and B-throw.

The only reason why I posted that video and nothing else is because Nyani played that MU very well, as many Marios don't understand the reason why Mario hard counters Little Mac is because he can gimp him 100% of the time when he's off-stage and he never has to take him on during neutral, which is all Little Mac has.

OP talks about For Glory matchups, so if anything, your video is also irrelevant. Riding the platform on Smashville and having Custom FLUDD would make Mac fights much easier for Mario, as Mac has to put himself in a bad position (by jumping to the platform), in order to get Mario, allowing him to take advantage of Mac's bad air-game. This is not the case in For Glory, however, and I have to agree with OP. A fight against Mac in For Glory could either be the easiest matchup, or one of the more frustrating, as it takes much more skill to outplay Little Mac on FD than it takes for him to outplay you.

 

[HeroMystic]

A fight against Mac in For Glory could either be the easiest matchup, or one of the more frustrating, as it takes much more skill to outplay Little Mac on FD than it takes for him to outplay you.

Your sig somewhat reflects my rebuttal to this.

 

[BSP]

@ DeliciousDarren Since no one has said it, I recommend you make Anther's Ladder your primary source of online competitive play instead of FG. 90% of FG players do dumb things, fall for things that won't against smart people, or don't adapt to your play. Those factors, along with being FD only (this is catching up to me. Stages matter a lot) make it a bad source of serious practice.

 

[DeliciousDarren]

@ DeliciousDarren Since no one has said it, I recommend you make Anther's Ladder your primary source of online competitive play instead of FG. 90% of FG players do dumb things, fall for things that won't against smart people, or don't adapt to your play. Those factors, along with being FD only (this is catching up to me. Stages matter a lot) make it a bad source of serious practice.

I've actually just heard of it recently, so I'll definitely give it a try. The thing is, one of my philosophies is if I cannot beat everyone on For Glory, how could I possibly beat them in tournament play. I will check it out soon.

In response to your earlier ideas against Little Mac, let me note my progress for anyone who is curious.

• Up-B out of Jab is great when it works. Completely throws the Mac off.
• F-Smash is difficult to land against Mac, but I have been able to re-purpose your suggestion to work for those who are rush happy. F-Smash doesn't do a terrible job at keeping them at bay.
• Mac's grab is indeed terrible; however, I still haven't found a way to properly punish him because of his quick start ups and rolls. I will work on this further.
• Up-air combos seem to work the best so far. I've recently been going for a lot more up-air strings on most characters.

 

[Luggy]

Mario overall has the most balanced matchups in the game, in my own humble opinion. However, this doesn't mean I don't struggle against some characters, even if I have a good matchup. It's generally because I don't know the character very well, or just me not knowing the right ways to beat it. But here's my personal list of the characters I suck against :

• : Weirdly enough, I suck against G&W. You won't see me fighting Gimr, that's for sure. But it's probably because I really don't understand how the character works. He's very tricky for me to deal with.
  
• : Good Ikes always scares me, it feels impossible to dodge any of their moves right. Mario should have a good matchup against him, but I'm really poor in terms of beating good Ike players.
  
• : A scary character again, his playstyle and the character overall feels broken to me. He's duable, but I always kick myself in the foot when I can't KO him fast enough to not taking the aura in my butt.
  
• : This underestimated character gives me a lot of problems. I can't keep up with all those pikmins ! He's strangely strong and can stall the match for a very long time. And I don't find a lot of Olimar players, so it's hard to progress and improve my matchup with him.
  
• : This one is really problematic. At least, the four others aren't really that popular and are played by few good players (though they have a great reputation). Rosalina is hard to keep track of, and the Luma doesn't help the situation. She's confusing to fight, and the fact that Mario does not have a really good matchup against her is a pain for me. I like to play against her, but still, a really hard character to fight for me.
  
• : Too fast. Seriously, this thing can't be catch. I feel like Dr.Eggman while fighting him, he can get out of so much situations without getting punished. Mario is okay to fight him, but god is he annoying. I feel bad losing to him, and even nerfed, he feels broken. I need to fight fast characters better, their mobility confuses me.

That's my personal list of "characters I struggle to".

 

[Seal]

• : Good Ikes always scares me, it feels impossible to dodge any of their moves right. Mario should have a good matchup against him, but I'm really poor in terms of beating good Ike players.
• : This underestimated character gives me a lot of problems. I can't keep up with all those pikmins ! He's strangely strong and can stall the match for a very long time. And I don't find a lot of Olimar players, so it's hard to progress and improve my matchup with him.

Ike: at low percentage, bait out his laggy moves and rush in for a grab > downthrow > utilt > utilt > usmash combo. (Might even want to try a third utilt).

Olimar: if you've got a read on him or her using a smash attack, or you've successfully baited one, whip out your cape and reflect it! The cape multiplies damage and sends the smash back at them. It can be extremely devastating and keep them rattled for the rest of the game.

 

[miniada]

can someone explain bowser to me i think its eithier even or slightly in marios favor

 

[Xeze]

can someone explain bowser to me i think its eithier even or slightly in marios favor

Bowser is basically like this:
- at low percents he is combo food. You can juggle and get hits on him for days.
- at high percent you need to be careful while fishing for the kill, or else you get destroyed by a rage-boosted smash attack. Even tilts become scary as your % goes up.
- luckily for Mario, Bowser's recovery is quite predictable and he can't go very low (unless he is using a custom up B).

 

[miniada]

Bowser is basically like this:
- at low percents he is combo food. You can juggle and get hits on him for days.
- at high percent you need to be careful while fishing for the kill, or else you get destroyed by a rage-boosted smash attack. Even tilts become scary as your % goes up.
- luckily for Mario, Bowser's recovery is quite predictable and he can't go very low (unless he is using a custom up B).

Can you give a ratio for the matchup I'm stuck in 50:50 and 55:45 marios favor

 

[Xeze]

I'd say 55:45 . Bowser's main problem is the lack of landing options, combined with a huge hurtbox. Mario's up smash ruins most landing attempts. Just make sure you don't get hit by a possible down B. DON'T SHIELD IT, because Bowser's down B can break shields, unless you powershield it but I wouldn't risk it.

 

[miniada]

I'd say 55:45 . Bowser's main problem is the lack of landing options, combined with a huge hurtbox. Mario's up smash ruins most landing attempts. Just make sure you don't get hit by a possible down B. DON'T SHIELD IT, because Bowser's down B can break shields, unless you powershield it but I wouldn't risk it.

Thanks funny how mario never had a bad matchup against bowser in smash bros

 

[Hat N' Clogs]

Thanks funny how mario never had a bad matchup against bowser in smash bros

Yep, because Bowser can't handle combos, and Mario has solid combo options in all of the games. Not to mention Mario has good edge guarding options, which works really well against Bowser's poor recovery.
It's even worse in their home series though. The matchup there is like 100:0

 

[miniada]

Yep, because Bowser can't handle combos, and Mario has solid combo options in all of the games. Not to mention Mario has good edge guarding options, which works really well against Bowser's poor recovery.
It's even worse in their home series though. The matchup there is like 100:0

Well they were kind of even in brawl but I still think is 55:45 in marios favor

 

[miniada]

How is the matchup against game and watch and what is the ratio

 

[Xeze]

How is the matchup against game and watch and what is the ratio

I have low experience vs G&W, but one of the Portuguese top players is a G&W main. I'd say the matchup is 55:45 .
Mario has some trouble getting in on G&W due to some disjoints like his jab and f-tilt. Plus up smash beats Mario's air approaches since it is actually invincible. Mario KO's G&W pretty early though, considering he can get an up smash or a f-smash on it.

 

[steamymartini]

Mario gets scraped by Roy in project m

 

[steamymartini]

I encourage you to make your own, and compare and contrast each others entries. Naturally, this thread will be tailored for Mario mains. My personal list is tailored for For Glory as that is my primary source of competitive play.

Remember: The characters higher on the list will be the ones you have the most trouble with. My placings are made without customs put into consideration.

S:
A:
B:
C:
D:

Any questions? I'll be glad to explain why I put characters where I did. Misplacement is also possible; however, this is a general synopsis.

After user discussion, the following changes have been made

1) Changed "Personal Tier List" to "Personal Matchup List" to better reflect the intention of the thread.
2) Removed "Conventional tier lists are odd to me. Is the average player supposed to believe that a character higher in the list is objectively better than all other fighters below him or her? I personally do not believe this is entirely true even if it has merit, and I have an idea as to what my personal match-up list would be." Removed to limit nonconstructive argumentation.
3) Added mention of For Glory to help the user understand where my placements come from.

OMG why is little mac so hard for you? Is the match up that bad?