Perhaps a Compromise the Tournament Mii Debate "Optimal/Golden Set"

[Tycon]

Hello everyone and thanks for taking the time out of your day to read this. I've been recently very active in reading as much material I can find about this topic and would perhaps ask you to entertain the idea that perhaps we can come to an understanding and compromise the best solution to make Miis viable, available but fair to the rest of the cast. As a prerequisite to this thread I'd like to point out Esam greatly inspired this idea (probably one of the founders of this concept application to recent tournaments) but seams to be rather frustrated, a link to his video is here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtDfFZm_K0o he included a tweet on this exact issue in addition.

The amount of arguments for each side on the forums currently offer great points in favor and against Mii custom play. While I have a bias/conflict of interest as I secondary a Mii character (swordfighter) I would say I have an interest in making Miis viable without over shadowing other characters if you'll believe me there. I'll include the 2 extremes in the poll (Ban all miis or 100% freedom miis) but for the sake of a compromise of miis in a tournament i'll assume they are not banned, but restricted in their freedom of choice in some manner. I'd ask those in favor to please bear in mind the opinions of the opposition and not insist on too much, we'll take what we can get as well as ask for those opposed to please keep and open mind and realise that were trying to open up the usability of more characters for people who want to main them, and perhaps be a fun alternative to players. I couldn't get every single one but here are a few of the decent ones I've found.

General Arguments in Favor of Freedom (non 1111 use):
- Any default set is allowed with customs set off
- Start off with all customs without unlocking
- Unique attribute to the character such as Ryu's multi attacks or Cloud's charge
- 1111 is an "arbitrary" default that happen to be that mess of auto assigned 1's where the character is designed to choose an array of moves
- They aren't really amazing characters nor well represented so more of a victim less crime helping a small pool of players
- Not very time consuming given setting up a profile and altering buttons take longer
- Fun and offer new character choices to people who like them

General Arguments Against Freedom (1111 use):
- Why are they the exception, all other characters start with 1111 of their respective moves
- Aren't allowed on for glory (although only FD omega is which is banned)
- Paulitina isn't allowed her custom set and also starts with her customs in the base game without grinding
- Too many match ups to learn and hard to set up in tournaments (move wise)
- Can swap moves for counter pick while keeping character (in theory with no restrictions)
- Time consuming to set up many mii set ups for tournaments

I feel both sides make great arguments, and it's unfair to solely ignore the other. Keeping 1111 Miis ignores the problems and points risen by Pro Mii freedoms but allowing full custom selection makes tournament organization through making Miis a nightmare and make match up knowledge unfair for most players. The logical solution is the middle of the road, use a build that is much more optimal than 1111 but stuck with that pre ordained set for good, this will be the set that tournaments use for now on as the standard and you'll be expected as a Mii player to use this set up. Another suggestion was mostly a 1111 base but allowing a single custom to be changed but this also is quirky and really more confusing than it should be, but for the sake of the opinion of the few that suggested it i'll allow it to be an option.

If this solution is so great why aren't we doing it? Simple answer is disagreement on that ultimate "arbitrary" custom set up. Esam has stated a lot of hostility has been shed on this exact topic but I think if I could add anything to this conversation I'd like to add one thing. Even an in-optimal set up of customs, they are almost always better than 1111. From personal experience I play Mii Sword Fighter, the current poll is located here as of the moment http://smashboards.com/threads/best...evo-related-please-vote.431829/#post-20936101 and the popular consensus (while low on votes) says that 1332 is the popular setup. I personally prefer counter for the shiek / combo match ups and as vs all fighters they have coutnerable attacks, however since the general consensus is reverse slash is the better more optimized move from higher level players such as Nyani or Chompy as well as the popular consensus I'm willing to make the sacrifice and use the build I prefer less because the alternative 1111 is just that much worse. Even using the 2nd up B is much preferable to the terrible up B 1 that I hope we can agree, even a set we don't agree on is better than the lousy alternative where no Mii player wins. I ask Mii players to please consider this as even if they disagree with the build as I do, they must agree that it's a better alternative to what we have now.

There seams to be some heated opposition to this idea, and the ad hominem being used right now to describe the mentality of Mii players as entitled is really unwarranted. However, in the interest of fairness we really can't have all move sets usable as stated via logistics and over all character versatility. Miis really need a "default" always chosen move set that were never assigned to them by Sakuri but chosen by the most popular consensus of the community and in respect to the elite of each Mii. While it may harm the development of the meta game using other customs, being so widely fearful of all out banns and using sub optimal 1111 builds hurt Miis more now and are likely the main reason for their low player count and general abandonment in the competitive scene and tech seeking fields. We certainly cannot swap moves in between matches and having Miis have an identity as a specific custom load out really cements their personality as who they are. I know this may seam unfair to some of the cast but considering how all 3 miis are SO low on the tier list and are special exceptions to the interpretation of the way their customs work customs turned off and their inherent design I hope you can be willing to make an exception for an all binding non-swapable build.

If you can agree to this then the discussion we need to have is can we please work together as players who want a fun variety cast full of characters but willing to take a slight short coming for the fairness of the rest of the cast (especially for other low tier cast members). I'd petition we have a moderator run poll or use the ones we currently have or use an elite council of players asking notables if they'd be willing to provide their input such as Zero, Nairo and other players what they'd agree the fairest move set would be. And upon that decision, accept what ever is picked and leave the arguments for swapping move sets for the full remand of customs for all characters.

Perhaps this really isn't for me to decide, but I'd want the debate here outside of general opinions to be on that. How can we pick the "Golden set" that will be the standard. This Golden set will also allow TO's to make a single quick character, guest Mii with a single load out for all 3 Miis and nothing else will be needed on their part. Any input or feed back on this would be great.

Anyways please try to be constructive and civil to say the least and thank you so much for considering all the options. Essentially all of the work here pertaining to the arguments and ideas belong to the rest of the community on smash boards, I'm just the guy who wishes to either spread the information or come to a better way to reach an agreement. If there's something I missed or you'd like to add feel free to do so.

 

[ZarroTsu]

I can't speak on behalf of Mii Fighters everywhere, but we've been working on getting Pre-ordained sets going. I'm not entirely sure where in the process we are right now (I don't compete); but we have things settled to a small group of choices and are working on a decision.

The only issue presently is if the meta changes way off in the future. Whether or not these sets can ever be changed if the meta advances, and how far in advance the notice needs to go out.

There's also a few of us who are obviously reluctant to do this at all. Whether the decision in general makes us appear as a weaker or stronger group is yet to be seen, but the biggest worry.

 

[Darklink401]

I was just thinking about this the other day. You are my hero x3 I support a single 'optimal' moveset. Tho I am used to having 1111 2222 and 3333 since that is what is legal in panama, Im open to anything that isnt any size any moveset (cuz that just sounds silly)

 

[TheHypnotoad]

I think that Miis should be allowed to customize their movesets as long as it is the guest Mii and they cannot change movesets in the middle of a set. Allowing for changing sizes would take way too long to set up (and we all only know that the only reason Mii mains want different sizes is so that tiny Brawler can do his dthrow up B cheese). Switching movesets in the middle of a set just means that you want to jank your opponent with a move they might not be familiar with.

 

[ぱみゅ]

The poll options are a bit skewed towards Guest Miis.
"Golden Set" could possibly also come with "Golden Size".

I think that Miis should be allowed to customize their movesets as long as it is the guest Mii and they cannot change movesets in the middle of a set. Allowing for changing sizes would take way too long to set up

3DS transfers take about 20 seconds and they already have the whole desired moveset, size and appearance.
I allow 3DS transfers as long as you already have it done BEFORE being called to the set.

(and we all only know that the only reason Mii mains want different sizes is so that tiny Brawler can do his dthrow up B cheese). Switching movesets in the middle of a set just means that you want to jank your opponent with a move they might not be familiar with.

I will refrain from comment on that. it is a whole different discussion.

 

[WritersBlah]

The poll options are a bit skewed towards Guest Miis.
"Golden Set" could possibly also come with "Golden Size".

Basically this. An ideally "national-level optimized" Mii would have a size definitely lighter than the guest Miis. If we're really considering a universal standard, why is a unique size to accommodate the set out of the question? It's not like it's a variance issue, as that ideal size would be the new standard. If rather, it's because an optimized Mii Brawler is too good of a character or something, then you better ban ZSS as well because their strategies are so similar. Only reason why Brawler doesn't get slack is because of the current restrictions set on Miis preventing people from getting experience in the matchup.

 

[Dinoman96]

If rather, it's because an optimized Mii Brawler is too good of a character or something, then you better ban ZSS as well because their strategies are so similar. Only reason why Brawler doesn't get slack is because of the current restrictions set on Miis preventing people from getting experience in the matchup.

Honestly, If there was a way to turn off stuff like Sheik's frame data or Rosalina's Luma, the community probably would do so. It's only because you can't get rid of them that they put up with it. You can, however, do stuff like turn off customs and restrict Miis from being small, so yeah.

 

[wizrad]

I chose the fifth option because it was the closest to what I believe is right. Miis should be guest size because, unlike other characters, to 'unlock' all of the sizes, you need to leave the game. Miis should have all of their moves available because there's no reason for them not to. However, they should be allowed to switch moves between games, and this should be considered the same as changing characters. I see absolutely no reason why it should be considered any different from changing characters.

 

[Raijinken]

I share Wizrad's view and voted similarly. Obviously, changing moveset should have to be done quickly, and in proper timing (winner changes first for instance). While in an ideal world I'd support full size customization, it simply has too much worst-case potential to become a logistical nightmare.

Though, I do support ideal sizing when in a customs-on no uploads allowed environment.

 

[T0MMY]

Golden sets are just the same chains to bind us with another name. True competition shall have no exceptions. Either ban them completely or allow them completely to see if there is a need to restrict size to Guest or ban a move for (actually) breaking the game. Until this is done then anti-mii gang has no ground to stand on for competition and can stay in the scrub scene.

 

[Murlough]

Miis should not get an "optimal set" unless every other character gets the option too.

I am for 1111 unless customs get legalized.

I can deal with 1111, 2222, and 3333 but only if other characters get it as well.

Miis should not get special treatment.

 

[Raijinken]

Miis should not get an "optimal set" unless every other character gets the option too.

I am for 1111 unless customs get legalized.

I can deal with 1111, 2222, and 3333 but only if other characters get it as well.

Miis should not get special treatment.

Can you convince Sakurai of that? Because he gave them special treatment out of the box.

(Not that I disagree with you, just saying it's not a logical argument when they were directly given special treatment)

 

[outfoxd]

I just want to play gunner with grenades and bombs. I voted for optimal set because If that's what i gotta do im for it.

But the "do everyone else should get an optimal custom set" rears its head and presents new issues.

 

[Murlough]

Can you convince Sakurai of that? Because he gave them special treatment out of the box.

(Not that I disagree with you, just saying it's not a logical argument when they were directly given special treatment)

It doesn't matter what he wanted since we don't listen to him in this competitive community. I don't get why this is such a huge part of the argument.

You might as well argue that we should have quit the competitive scene for this game and only play it for fun with items on. (Because from my understanding that is what Sakurai has wanted in the past. I could be wrong.)

 

[ぱみゅ]

I would agree with everyone getting their optimal set if it wasn't such a difficult task to unlock those sets in the first place.

Miis do not need any unlocking to gain access to their best sets (which, hinthint, don't boost them to the "truly viable" level), so it's more practical, and you keep that 1% of the playerbase who care slightly happier, while the rest are very likely not to care anyway.

 

[Dinoman96]

I'd argue that Custom Mii Brawler is "truly viable". Dapuffster actually made it really far in EVO 2015 last year, making it into 13th place. Meanwhile, there were no Kong Cyclone Donkey Kongs in the top 32 I believe.

 

[Raijinken]

It doesn't matter what he wanted since we don't listen to him in this competitive community. I don't get why this is such a huge part of the argument.

You might as well argue that we should have quit the competitive scene for this game and only play it for fun with items on. (Because from my understanding that is what Sakurai has wanted in the past. I could be wrong.)

I apologize for being a bit sarcastic, but it's very clear that Miis get special treatment whether we want them to or not. By restricting them, we are ruling against them specifically, for competitively ungrounded reasons.

Like everything else in the game (or at least so one can presume), the design and options available to Miis was deliberate, and thus they were specifically given the ability to choose any special, from game data creation, and use those specials regardless of the game options, across modes, without respect to other characters (it goes to such a point that Miis are playable in All Star, which does not and cannot be made to allow Customizations). While any other amount of technical nitpicking can rule against Palutena or whoever on those grounds, it doesn't work on Miis. It goes from being an argument about fairness of access (a separate discussion for specials in general, and one that the parties seem to fundamentally disagree on), to being an argument in favor of imposing an artificial restriction on a character against their direct design implementation. It's not very dissimilar, in principle, from forbidding Zelda/Sheik/Pokemon Trainer/Samus players from transforming in previous games on some superficial grounds that doing so grants some sort of unfair advantage not had by other characters. It's the design of the characters (Miis, in this case), and limiting it just because other characters aren't so lucky is not competitive rulecrafting, it's, to paraphrase T0mmy, scrubbery.

If they could possibly, in any way, be disabled, or limited to the same forced moveset as the rest of the roster (if Customs Off made all Miis run 1111, in other words), I would see the argument as fair from the anti-specials stance. But they can't. It's just a limit imposed for some misguided notion of fairness.

 

[Darklink401]

Miis should not get an "optimal set" unless every other character gets the option too.

I am for 1111 unless customs get legalized.

I can deal with 1111, 2222, and 3333 but only if other characters get it as well.

Miis should not get special treatment.

It's not special treatment, simply because Miis moves aren't 'customs', according to the actual game, they are simply 'specials'

Whereas every other character gets 'customs'.


I would be against the idea of an optimized size, because while most people prefer tiny gunner/sword/brawler, I personally like default size, and changing would feel weird.

+ tinies aren't strictly better, they deal less damage, have less range, and die earlier.

 

[dav3yb]

if i had to pick something, it would be one of 2 things. If players are allowed to customize them on the fly, then guest miis and pick your set.

However, for the sake of making them competitive, if a single optimal set, with special size/weight for each class were found, i wouldn't be opposed to have a "golden brawler/sword/gunner" and have just the one available.

 

[Shouxiao]

At this point it is really just can the Smash 4 community make up their mind with Mii and other things like stages.

Honestly I think the guest Mii route and what ever moveset would work the best. Ultimately when it comes to things people are only going to use a set or 2 at most. It is not like Mii mains are going to be switching their moves every match or something. Once the most optimal moveset is done then that would become the standard in a sense.

Has for things like size and stuff I think there should be some consistency. Things like weight and height can really effect if combos connect or if a Mii is KOed or not.

Well I do say this. At least the moves do not have to be unlocked and at least guess Mii exist. It would be even more of a hassle trying to figure something out.

 

[Jenna Zant]

It should be guest mii with any moveset. Exiting out of Smash to go into the Mii Maker and spend 5 minutes perfecting a Hitler mii or whatever takes way too long.

 

[wizrad]

Ideally, sizes would be allowed. But it's just… meh. Takes too long. Mii Maker. Bleh. If we could edit the sizes of Miis in game, everything would be perfect.

 

[HermitHelmet]

Going to be honest here, but why do we need another debate about this? At worst, Miis should be XXXX Guest, but without compromising, they should be any height/any weight. I'd be fine with either.

 

[Scribe]

I like XXXX Guest and lock the player into it for the set, but I'd say that either one Golden Set or a choice between 1111, a Golden Set, and maybe a Silver Set, with the player locked into their choice for the full set is a good solution that solves the logistical issues with XXXX Guest.