Percents at Which Ness' moves can be cc'd *WIP*

[thesage]

Characters Completed so far: Fox, Marth, Sheik, Zelda

I'm posting this now since I tested out 3 characters then my comp ****ed up and lost all my data so in order to prevent that...

Note 1: Dair has enough hitstun that even if it's cc'd vs. Fox at 0% it can combo into a jab. By combo I mean that it counts as a consecutive hit in training mode.

Note 2: U-smash, D-smash, and Fair have lots of hitboxes so I won't be testing them 'til I get access to my ar next weekend.

Note 3: For moves that are cc'able after 150% I won't bother to figure out the actual percent. Maybe if I have enough interest I'll do it later.

Note 4: Pk flash is too hard to test and also shouldn't be used against a grounded opponent anyways. Psi Magnet doesn't do damage. Pk fire is terrible at high levels of competitive play and really easy to get out of regardless of cc. I may test out Pk Thunder since I use it against people that are on platforms sometimes.

Note 5: The Forward Smash has 4 hitboxes. I'm only going to test out the one closest to Ness and furthest away as they are the weakest and strongest hits of that move respectively.

Note 6: The percents listed hear is the first percent at which a move knock a cc'ing opponent into the ground.

Note 7: All the f-tilt percentages in this list are based off of the non angled f-tilt. The up and down percentages are within 2-3% of that value so I decided to not test out up angled and down angled f-tilt on all characters. I may do this later.

Note 8: Pkt and dair are affected by stale move negation, I'll have to retest all the values for pkt and dair.

The actual data now:

Fox

Nair (sweetspot): 78
Nair (sourspot): 123
Fair (weak hits):
Fair (strong hit):
Bair (sweetspot): 51
Bair (sourspot): 100
Uair: 59
Dair: 14
Jab (1st hit): >150
Jab (2nd hit): >150
Jab (3rd hit): >150
F-tilt: 81
U-tilt: 58
D-tilt: >150
F-smash (non tipper):
F-smash (tipper):
U-smash (weak hits):
U-smash (strong hit):
D-smash (weak hits):
D-smash (strong hits):
Pk Thunder (head): >150

Marth

Nair (sweetspot): 84
Nair (sourspot): 132
Fair (weak hits):
Fair (strong hit):
Bair (sweetspot): 55
Bair (sourspot): 108
Uair: 65
Dair: 17
Jab (1st hit): >150
Jab (2nd hit): >150
Jab (3rd hit): >150
F-tilt: 87
U-tilt: 60
D-tilt: >150
F-smash (non tipper):
F-smash (tipper):
U-smash (weak hits):
U-smash (strong hit):
D-smash (weak hits):
D-smash (strong hits):
Pk Thunder (head): >150

Sheik

Nair (sweetspot): 85
Nair (sourspot):
Fair (weak hits):
Fair (strong hit):
Bair (sweetspot): 57
Bair (sourspot):
Uair: 63
Dair: 17
Jab (1st hit): >150
Jab (2nd hit): >150
Jab (3rd hit): >150
F-tilt: 88
U-tilt: 63
D-tilt: >150
F-smash (non tipper):
F-smash (tipper):
U-smash (weak hits):
U-smash (strong hit):
D-smash (weak hits):
D-smash (strong hits):
Pk Thunder (head): >150

Falco

Nair (sweetspot): 80
Nair (sourspot): 127
Fair (weak hits):
Fair (strong hit):
Bair (sweetspot): 53
Bair (sourspot): 104
Uair: 60
Dair:
Jab (1st hit): >150
Jab (2nd hit): >150
Jab (3rd hit): >150
F-tilt: 83
U-tilt: 59
D-tilt: >150
F-smash (non tipper):
F-smash (tipper):
U-smash (weak hits):
U-smash (strong hit):
D-smash (weak hits):
D-smash (strong hits):
Pk Thunder (head):

Peach

Nair (sweetspot):
Nair (sourspot):
Fair (weak hits):
Fair (strong hit):
Bair (sweetspot):
Bair (sourspot):
Uair:
Dair:
Jab (1st hit):
Jab (2nd hit):
Jab (3rd hit):
F-tilt:
U-tilt:
D-tilt:
F-smash (non tipper):
F-smash (tipper):
U-smash (weak hits):
U-smash (strong hit):
D-smash (weak hits):
D-smash (strong hits):
Pk Thunder (head):

Captain Falcon

Nair (sweetspot):
Nair (sourspot):
Fair (weak hits):
Fair (strong hit):
Bair (sweetspot):
Bair (sourspot):
Uair:
Dair:
Jab (1st hit):
Jab (2nd hit):
Jab (3rd hit):
F-tilt:
U-tilt:
D-tilt:
F-smash (non tipper):
F-smash (tipper):
U-smash (weak hits):
U-smash (strong hit):
D-smash (weak hits):
D-smash (strong hits):
Pk Thunder (head):

Jigglypuff

Nair (sweetspot):
Nair (sourspot):
Fair (weak hits):
Fair (strong hit):
Bair (sweetspot):
Bair (sourspot):
Uair:
Dair:
Jab (1st hit):
Jab (2nd hit):
Jab (3rd hit):
F-tilt:
U-tilt:
D-tilt:
F-smash (non tipper):
F-smash (tipper):
U-smash (weak hits):
U-smash (strong hit):
D-smash (weak hits):
D-smash (strong hits):
Pk Thunder (head):

Ice Climbers

Nair (sweetspot):
Nair (sourspot):
Fair (weak hits):
Fair (strong hit):
Bair (sweetspot):
Bair (sourspot):
Uair:
Dair:
Jab (1st hit):
Jab (2nd hit):
Jab (3rd hit):
F-tilt:
U-tilt:
D-tilt:
F-smash (non tipper):
F-smash (tipper):
U-smash (weak hits):
U-smash (strong hit):
D-smash (weak hits):
D-smash (strong hits):
Pk Thunder (head):

Samus

Nair (sweetspot):
Nair (sourspot):
Fair (weak hits):
Fair (strong hit):
Bair (sweetspot):
Bair (sourspot):
Uair:
Dair:
Jab (1st hit):
Jab (2nd hit):
Jab (3rd hit):
F-tilt:
U-tilt:
D-tilt:
F-smash (non tipper):
F-smash (tipper):
U-smash (weak hits):
U-smash (strong hit):
D-smash (weak hits):
D-smash (strong hits):
Pk Thunder (head):

Dr. Mario

Nair (sweetspot):
Nair (sourspot):
Fair (weak hits):
Fair (strong hit):
Bair (sweetspot):
Bair (sourspot):
Uair:
Dair:
Jab (1st hit):
Jab (2nd hit):
Jab (3rd hit):
F-tilt:
U-tilt:
D-tilt:
F-smash (non tipper):
F-smash (tipper):
U-smash (weak hits):
U-smash (strong hit):
D-smash (weak hits):
D-smash (strong hits):
Pk Thunder (head):

Ganondorf

Nair (sweetspot):
Nair (sourspot):
Fair (weak hits):
Fair (strong hit):
Bair (sweetspot):
Bair (sourspot):
Uair:
Dair:
Jab (1st hit):
Jab (2nd hit):
Jab (3rd hit):
F-tilt:
U-tilt:
D-tilt:
F-smash (non tipper):
F-smash (tipper):
U-smash (weak hits):
U-smash (strong hit):
D-smash (weak hits):
D-smash (strong hits):
Pk Thunder (head):

Luigi

Nair (sweetspot):
Nair (sourspot):
Fair (weak hits):
Fair (strong hit):
Bair (sweetspot):
Bair (sourspot):
Uair:
Dair:
Jab (1st hit):
Jab (2nd hit):
Jab (3rd hit):
F-tilt:
U-tilt:
D-tilt:
F-smash (non tipper):
F-smash (tipper):
U-smash (weak hits):
U-smash (strong hit):
D-smash (weak hits):
D-smash (strong hits):
Pk Thunder (head):

Donkey Kong

Nair (sweetspot):
Nair (sourspot):
Fair (weak hits):
Fair (strong hit):
Bair (sweetspot):
Bair (sourspot):
Uair:
Dair:
Jab (1st hit):
Jab (2nd hit):
Jab (3rd hit):
F-tilt:
U-tilt:
D-tilt:
F-smash (non tipper):
F-smash (tipper):
U-smash (weak hits):
U-smash (strong hit):
D-smash (weak hits):
D-smash (strong hits):
Pk Thunder (head):

Mario

Nair (sweetspot):
Nair (sourspot):
Fair (weak hits):
Fair (strong hit):
Bair (sweetspot):
Bair (sourspot):
Uair:
Dair:
Jab (1st hit):
Jab (2nd hit):
Jab (3rd hit):
F-tilt:
U-tilt:
D-tilt:
F-smash (non tipper):
F-smash (tipper):
U-smash (weak hits):
U-smash (strong hit):
D-smash (weak hits):
D-smash (strong hits):
Pk Thunder (head):

Link

Nair (sweetspot):
Nair (sourspot):
Fair (weak hits):
Fair (strong hit):
Bair (sweetspot):
Bair (sourspot):
Uair:
Dair:
Jab (1st hit):
Jab (2nd hit):
Jab (3rd hit):
F-tilt:
U-tilt:
D-tilt:
F-smash (non tipper):
F-smash (tipper):
U-smash (weak hits):
U-smash (strong hit):
D-smash (weak hits):
D-smash (strong hits):
Pk Thunder (head):

Pikachu

Nair (sweetspot):
Nair (sourspot):
Fair (weak hits):
Fair (strong hit):
Bair (sweetspot):
Bair (sourspot):
Uair:
Dair:
Jab (1st hit):
Jab (2nd hit):
Jab (3rd hit):
F-tilt:
U-tilt:
D-tilt:
F-smash (non tipper):
F-smash (tipper):
U-smash (weak hits):
U-smash (strong hit):
D-smash (weak hits):
D-smash (strong hits):
Pk Thunder (head):

Young Link

Nair (sweetspot):
Nair (sourspot):
Fair (weak hits):
Fair (strong hit):
Bair (sweetspot):
Bair (sourspot):
Uair:
Dair:
Jab (1st hit):
Jab (2nd hit):
Jab (3rd hit):
F-tilt:
U-tilt:
D-tilt:
F-smash (non tipper):
F-smash (tipper):
U-smash (weak hits):
U-smash (strong hit):
D-smash (weak hits):
D-smash (strong hits):
Pk Thunder (head):

Roy

Nair (sweetspot):
Nair (sourspot):
Fair (weak hits):
Fair (strong hit):
Bair (sweetspot):
Bair (sourspot):
Uair:
Dair:
Jab (1st hit):
Jab (2nd hit):
Jab (3rd hit):
F-tilt:
U-tilt:
D-tilt:
F-smash (non tipper):
F-smash (tipper):
U-smash (weak hits):
U-smash (strong hit):
D-smash (weak hits):
D-smash (strong hits):
Pk Thunder (head):

Zelda

Nair (sweetspot): 85
Nair (sourspot): 135
Fair (weak hits):
Fair (strong hit):
Bair (sweetspot): 56
Bair (sourspot): 109
Uair: 65
Dair: 17
Jab (1st hit): >150
Jab (2nd hit): >150
Jab (3rd hit): >150
F-tilt: 88
U-tilt: 63
D-tilt: >150
F-smash (non tipper):
F-smash (tipper):
U-smash (weak hits):
U-smash (strong hit):
D-smash (weak hits):
D-smash (strong hits):
Pk Thunder (head): >150

Game and Watch

Nair (sweetspot):
Nair (sourspot):
Fair (weak hits):
Fair (strong hit):
Bair (sweetspot):
Bair (sourspot):
Uair:
Dair:
Jab (1st hit):
Jab (2nd hit):
Jab (3rd hit):
F-tilt:
U-tilt:
D-tilt:
F-smash (non tipper):
F-smash (tipper):
U-smash (weak hits):
U-smash (strong hit):
D-smash (weak hits):
D-smash (strong hits):
Pk Thunder (head):

Ness

Nair (sweetspot):
Nair (sourspot):
Fair (weak hits):
Fair (strong hit):
Bair (sweetspot):
Bair (sourspot):
Uair:
Dair:
Jab (1st hit):
Jab (2nd hit):
Jab (3rd hit):
F-tilt:
U-tilt:
D-tilt:
F-smash (non tipper):
F-smash (tipper):
U-smash (weak hits):
U-smash (strong hit):
D-smash (weak hits):
D-smash (strong hits):
Pk Thunder (head):

Yoshi

Nair (sweetspot):
Nair (sourspot):
Fair (weak hits):
Fair (strong hit):
Bair (sweetspot):
Bair (sourspot):
Uair:
Dair:
Jab (1st hit):
Jab (2nd hit):
Jab (3rd hit):
F-tilt:
U-tilt:
D-tilt:
F-smash (non tipper):
F-smash (tipper):
U-smash (weak hits):
U-smash (strong hit):
D-smash (weak hits):
D-smash (strong hits):
Pk Thunder (head):

Bowser

Nair (sweetspot):
Nair (sourspot):
Fair (weak hits):
Fair (strong hit):
Bair (sweetspot):
Bair (sourspot):
Uair:
Dair:
Jab (1st hit):
Jab (2nd hit):
Jab (3rd hit):
F-tilt:
U-tilt:
D-tilt:
F-smash (non tipper):
F-smash (tipper):
U-smash (weak hits):
U-smash (strong hit):
D-smash (weak hits):
D-smash (strong hits):
Pk Thunder (head):

Mewtwo

Nair (sweetspot):
Nair (sourspot):
Fair (weak hits):
Fair (strong hit):
Bair (sweetspot):
Bair (sourspot):
Uair:
Dair:
Jab (1st hit):
Jab (2nd hit):
Jab (3rd hit):
F-tilt:
U-tilt:
D-tilt:
F-smash (non tipper):
F-smash (tipper):
U-smash (weak hits):
U-smash (strong hit):
D-smash (weak hits):
D-smash (strong hits):
Pk Thunder (head):

Kirby

Nair (sweetspot):
Nair (sourspot):
Fair (weak hits):
Fair (strong hit):
Bair (sweetspot):
Bair (sourspot):
Uair:
Dair:
Jab (1st hit):
Jab (2nd hit):
Jab (3rd hit):
F-tilt:
U-tilt:
D-tilt:
F-smash (non tipper):
F-smash (tipper):
U-smash (weak hits):
U-smash (strong hit):
D-smash (weak hits):
D-smash (strong hits):
Pk Thunder (head):

Pichu

Nair (sweetspot):
Nair (sourspot):
Fair (weak hits):
Fair (strong hit):
Bair (sweetspot):
Bair (sourspot):
Uair:
Dair:
Jab (1st hit):
Jab (2nd hit):
Jab (3rd hit):
F-tilt:
U-tilt:
D-tilt:
F-smash (non tipper):
F-smash (tipper):
U-smash (weak hits):
U-smash (strong hit):
D-smash (weak hits):
D-smash (strong hits):
Pk Thunder (head):

~if anybody would like to contribute please do. It'd make my life a lot easier lol~

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

hey why are you checking? I,m not a ness guy so yeah I might check for pichu and stuff. He would be the lowest number and the start point to begin testing other people due to lightness and hitstun.

pichu PpPpPLlLlAaAaAYyYyYy AaAaAsSsS HhHIiIiIiMmMmMm (spooky voice)

 

[thesage]

I'm doing it in the order of the tier list. I did Zelda the same time I did Shiek.

I'm planning on doing this for my other characters (Peach and Shiek) as well. I'm somewhat surprised this hasn't been done yet though...

Edit: Dair and pkt being affected by stale move negation makes testing MUCH MUCH more annoying.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I have a question.

Are you testing true crouch cancel or just ASDI down?

 

[thesage]

ASDI down. As in the opponent is crouching while I hit them. I can't test true crouch cancel without my AR. I'm not even sure if I will do that though since pretty much any move is unsafe from a true crouch cancel...

 

[KirbyKaze]

I may have these wrong, but I was always told that ASDI down is holding down when you're doing something that isn't crouching. Whereas crouch cancel is when you're holding down and therefore you are ASDIing down while crouching.

Like, if you compare the knockback on U-smashing Puff with Fox when she's ASDIing down at 70 (basically, make her Rest and then have her hold down) versus the knockback when she's crouching (holding down, in crouch) there's a dramatic difference.

 

[thesage]

I thought you meant true crouch canceling as in you tech after you sdi down. I'll test out what you said sometime next week. My next 4 days are busy as ****.

 

[Magus420]

Edit: Dair and pkt being affected by stale move negation makes testing MUCH MUCH more annoying.

D-air doesn't stale in KBG. Only the damage stales like almost every other move in the game. The KB of a fresh and fully stale d-air will always be exactly the same when the ending damages are equal, since KB is calculated with the damage after the hit.

Some projectiles stale in both damage and KBG, however, and PKT is one of them. The KB of a fresh PKT and a fully stale one will be drastically different even when the ending damage is the same.


True CCing: Crouching animation + ASDI down. Being in the crouch animation when you get hit reduces the launch speed by 1/3 and halves the hitlag (freeze frames on hit) on the defender, and the reduced LS will prevent the KB from causing tumble until higher damages than normal. The ASDI down causes you to land at the start of KB instead of going upwards, and the landing animation is what actually cancels the stun.

If the KB doesn't send you upwards you can't cause a landing to cancel the stun with ASDI down, so only the crouching part of it has any effect. This is why spikes/meteors and other moves with horizontal or lower trajectories can't be CCed, and instead of canceling ALL stun into just 2/4/5/6 landing lag (varies by character) you are stunned for 2/3 the normal stun time (a result of the crouch animation) which is often much more. If it's strong enough to cause tumble and you ASDI into the floor you instantly hit/bounce off the floor (techable). You can ASDI down on spikes/meteors only after they cause tumble (since the bounce sends you upwards then) so they are still techable with ASDI, just not CCable.


Pseudo CCing: Basically the same except you're ASDIing down after not actually being in the crouch animation when you got hit, so you don't get the 2/3 launch speed and halved hitlag. Because of that it will cause tumble and 'break' at lower damages than it would while being in a crouch, and trying to do it on horizontal and lower trajectories does nothing at all.

 

[thesage]

Then why was I getting different results in percentages for dair when it sends people into the ground into their faceplant animations? I have version 1.0 if that changes anything. I'll test it again to make sure, but I'm pretty sure that's what was going on.

 

[ChivalRuse]

How is this guide read?

"Dair: 17"

Does that mean that Ness's dair can be CC'ed at that 17 percent? That doesn't really make sense.

 

[thesage]

See Note 6.

 

[Magus420]

Then why was I getting different results in percentages for dair when it sends people into the ground into their faceplant animations? I have version 1.0 if that changes anything. I'll test it again to make sure, but I'm pretty sure that's what was going on.

KB is calculated with the damage after the hit.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Ah, I see. Makes sense now.