Peach's Castle 64?

[Shirma Akayaku]

I think this stage has a chance of being a counter-pick. Is it a good chance? I'm not sure. It's one of those odd-ball stages I'd like to see as a counter-pick, but it'll need some extensive testing.

 

[ShionKaito438]

I think the stage can be a good counterpick. From the short footage we saw of it, they fixed one of stage's biggest flaws, no grabbable ledges on the moving platforms.

As much as I'd like it to be legal, it's such a weird stage...we really have to wait and see.

(I'm seriously glad that they made the ledges grabbable, Project M did the same thing. It's kind of funny how many similarities Smash 4 and Project M have coming from Brawl.)

 

[MajorMajora]

I think people are over hyping the ramps. They allow teching and can extend stocks, but they aren't exactly caves of life. KJ64 has large blast zones, doesn't mean that it's uncompetitive just because stocks are longer there.

Besides, teching and DI'ing to the ramps takes some skill. Not to mention DI isn't some sort of all powerful force that'll always get you to the ramp if you play your cards right.

 

[MintChipper]

I haven't bought the stage cause I'm on a trip but what I'm hearing about the stage right now is mostly negative.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I haven't bought the stage cause I'm on a trip but what I'm hearing about the stage right now is mostly negative.

For your reading pleasure.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

This stage is really good, even better than it seemed like it would be at first. Hitting the bumper doesn't save you from dying off the top, and the way the lower ledges work plays out really well in practice. I tried playing for the lame-out here, and it really doesn't work very well. Teching the wedges is important, but that's not really a bad thing (most kill moves will hit away from the wedges such that hitting toward them is usually a choice... one that is sometimes right to make so it's really tactical). The stage also has a lot of little nuance and tech to it that's really cool; I do worry some people will push to ban it just because they'll totally get exposed here if they don't put in the time and learn stuff.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

This stage is really good, even better than it seemed like it would be at first. Hitting the bumper doesn't save you from dying off the top, and the way the lower ledges work plays out really well in practice. I tried playing for the lame-out here, and it really doesn't work very well. Teching the wedges is important, but that's not really a bad thing (most kill moves will hit away from the wedges such that hitting toward them is usually a choice... one that is sometimes right to make so it's really tactical). The stage also has a lot of little nuance and tech to it that's really cool; I do worry some people will push to ban it just because they'll totally get exposed here if they don't put in the time and learn stuff.

The next few times you play on it, try to stay on the upper platform as much as possible. I hit those ramps so goddamn much, and the bumper really screwed with combos.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

The next few times you play on it, try to stay on the upper platform as much as possible. I hit those ramps so goddamn much, and the bumper really screwed with combos.

I was exploring that; I was able to do Rosa juggles very well with or without the bumper since it's too high to mess up my low percent stuff and my higher percent stuff is about an equally good chase whether I go for a basic airdodge read on a uthrow or whether I toss them into the bumper and chase that instead, and it just wasn't hard to hit people at angles that were generally not disadvantaged by the ramps (I actually find most of the times people are hit into the ramps is from below in specific spacing situations on the sliding platform, but that can create some fascinating tech traps so it's all good). In general, I think it's also a better strategy to spend most of your time in the lower portion in most match-ups; up top is a really risky place to be since you can be pressured from below, and from below, you generally are almost always in a better position to attack your opponent anyway.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

I was exploring that; I was able to do Rosa juggles very well with or without the bumper since it's too high to mess up my low percent stuff and my higher percent stuff is about an equally good chase whether I go for a basic airdodge read on a uthrow or whether I toss them into the bumper and chase that instead, and it just wasn't hard to hit people at angles that were generally not disadvantaged by the ramps (I actually find most of the times people are hit into the ramps is from below in specific spacing situations on the sliding platform, but that can create some fascinating tech traps so it's all good). In general, I think it's also a better strategy to spend most of your time in the lower portion in most match-ups; up top is a really risky place to be since you can be pressured from below, and from below, you generally are almost always in a better position to attack your opponent anyway.

The bumper ruined my BnB uAir > uAir > uSpecial combo several times and the ramps ruined multiple bAir kills.
Luckily I can agree with you on the disadvantage you usually have if you stay on the top platform.
Thing is, every match I saw so far had some instances of the hazards preventing otherwise certain KO's.
I won't drop the stage this soon of course, further testing is needed and I really like the timings you have to constantly watch in relation to the platform and bumper positions.

 

[Bedoop]

Well we know for a fact (I think) that the Bumper and Platform aren't RNG, they move at specific times, so all we need to do is just take into account the way they move at what times

And the Bumper only does 1% so it's not really a "Hazard", per se.

 

[dav3yb]

I don't get the point of a poll with TWO options for "No"

i think this could be better than some of the stages now. at least replacing something that isn't as good.

 

[webbedspace]

A quick search of Twitter shows that Chibo and Seagull Joe are both negative about this stage's legality, and Xaltis is positive. Not much else seem to be tweeting about it or discussing it. Are most people just assuming it's a ban, or what?

 

[Luigi player]

After playing on the stage for the last few days, it's really fun. I think it should be counterpick. Ramps and bumper are things that annoy, but it's not that big of a deal.
Like AmazingAmpharos said, KO moves usually hit you lower (if you're on the moving platform) or higher than the ramps.
It does give room for some "janky" stuff, but for now it seems alright to me.

 

[dav3yb]

It should certainly replace halberd at the very least.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

It should certainly replace halberd at the very least.

Why

 

[Luigi player]

Why

Because Halberd is stupid and you're basically always in kill-%, because of the low ceiling. Some also find the hazards bad, but I don't share that opinion. For further discussion on this please visit a Halberd or general stage thread.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Because Halberd is stupid and you're basically always in kill-%, because of the low ceiling. Some also find the hazards bad, but I don't share that opinion. For further discussion on this please visit a Halberd or general stage thread.

The bumper and the ramps are much worse than what Halberd has to offer. I heavily prefer a stage where you die early over a stage where you die late. We don't need to push timeout potential.

 

[Luigi player]

The bumper and the ramps are much worse than what Halberd has to offer. I heavily prefer a stage where you die early over a stage where you die late. We don't need to push timeout potential.

If you prefer a stage where you can die at 0 over one where you die at 150 then that means you like randomness? Because that's what will decide who wins on Halberd more.

Just tested Peach's Castle 64s blastzones:

Peach's Castle 64 KO %

• Upwards:

(Fox usmash KO on Mario)

bridges (middle part): 94 % (if bumper hit on way up: 96 %)
lower: 104 %
moving platform: 111 %

[ compare: omega: 104 % ; halberd (main): (lowest) 96 %, (edges) 94 % ]

• Sides:

(DK bthrow KO on Mario)

bridges: (left side) 155 % ; (right side) 151 %
lower: 177 %
moving platform (furthest out): 101 %

[ compare: omega edge: 106 % ; battlefield edge: 119 % ]


The sides are really something I guess, but every character has some KO move upwards. To the sides edgeguarding is easier here, because you can go through the moving platforms, meaning you can stay in the air right at the point where the opponent could grad the ledge, but then bair him or something. Also when the moving platforms goes to the other side it'll be more difficult to recover.
So on this stage horizontal kills are more likely because of not being able to recover than dying to the sides. Because of edgeguarding and the moving platform going away. It's not as bad as it seems.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

If you prefer a stage where you can die at 0 over one where you die at 150 then that means you like randomness? Because that's what will decide who wins on Halberd more.

Just tested Peach's Castle 64s blastzones:

Peach's Castle 64 KO %

• Upwards:

(Fox usmash KO on Mario)

bridges (middle part): 94 % (if bumper hit on way up: 96 %)
lower: 104 %
moving platform: 111 %

[ compare: omega: 104 % ; halberd (main): (lowest) 96 %, (edges) 94 % ]

• Sides:

(DK bthrow KO on Mario)

bridges: (left side) 155 % ; (right side) 151 %
lower: 177 %
moving platform (furthest out): 101 %

[ compare: omega edge: 106 % ; battlefield edge: 119 % ]


The sides are really something I guess, but every character has some KO move upwards. To the sides edgeguarding is easier here, because you can go through the moving platforms, meaning you can stay in the air right at the point where the opponent could grad the ledge, but then bair him or something. Also when the moving platforms goes to the other side it'll be more difficult to recover.
So on this stage horizontal kills are more likely because of not being able to recover than dying to the sides. Because of edgeguarding and the moving platform going away. It's not as bad as it seems.

I can only talk about my experiences on Castle as a ZSS main, and the bumper regularly screws up my uAir > uAir > uSpecial combo. Many bAir kills got screwed by the ramps. My problem are not the blast zones, my problem are the ramps and the bumper preventing me from reaching the blast zones.
And before you start, I know the bumper doesn't move randomly. I fear the more you know the stage, the longer you can survive stuff that obviously should have killed you.
And just out of curiosity, who can kill at 0% on Halberd?

 

[KeithTheGeek]

If I had to guess, Rosalina with a well spaced uair, but that would require some really bad spacing on the part of the player getting hit by that uair if they're dying after getting hit at 0%. And why would you take Rosa there anyways?

 

[webbedspace]

And just out of curiosity, who can kill at 0% on Halberd?

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

That's pretty funny. Poor DKwill.

 

[Luigi player]

If I had to guess, Rosalina with a well spaced uair, but that would require some really bad spacing on the part of the player getting hit by that uair if they're dying after getting hit at 0%. And why would you take Rosa there anyways?

"Why would you take Rosa there". You don't always know if your opponent plays Rosalina or not. And if he does, GG. Rosa almost has like a freewin on that stage. But it's not just her. More characters can get KOs at like 0% out of (grab-)combos. It makes % basically an unimportant factor in the game. Since you can always die to anything.

@ Tobi_Whatever
I guess you have to play around the bumper. That's what everyone has to do. And if it does get in the way: why not try to follow up on the bumper hit? It's not like this puts your opponent in such a good position. And if you hit your opponent hard enough the bumper won't stop the kill.
The ramps can be annoying if you hit from ~bridge-height to the sides, yeah... but you should know that. You can fight on the moving platform or on the lower part. If you're on the bridge you can try to KO up the top.

The ramps can also set up for some interesting gameplay if you walljump off them, so it's not like they're only a downside. But I agree that the bumper and the ramps are a little stupid. I don't think it harms gameplay on the stage enough to not have it legal.

 

[Kulty]

Hi guys,

So being checking out replays of Peach Castle 64 (I didn't buy it yet, because I want to confirm if this stage is legal or not), I think I can say that it's mostly counterpick at best, but if it will be legalized, I bet that no one's gonna play on it just like its 64 counterpart (I think this stage was a counterpick as well according to the official 64 ruleset)! Anyway, I don't find the bumper too much of a big deal, but the wedges can be potential nuisance to competitive matches imo. Does the bumper still prevents vertical KOs at high percents? I heard that when you touch it while being launched off, you still get KOed but at a different angle. Can someone verify this? Not sure about it!

Also, not related to Peach Castle, but is Hyrule Castle 64 already considered banned? Where is the link to the discussion of the stage? Can't find it!

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

"Why would you take Rosa there". You don't always know if your opponent plays Rosalina or not. And if he does, GG. Rosa almost has like a freewin on that stage. But it's not just her. More characters can get KOs at like 0% out of (grab-)combos. It makes % basically an unimportant factor in the game. Since you can always die to anything.

@ Tobi_Whatever
I guess you have to play around the bumper. That's what everyone has to do. And if it does get in the way: why not try to follow up on the bumper hit? It's not like this puts your opponent in such a good position. And if you hit your opponent hard enough the bumper won't stop the kill.
The ramps can be annoying if you hit from ~bridge-height to the sides, yeah... but you should know that. You can fight on the moving platform or on the lower part. If you're on the bridge you can try to KO up the top.

The ramps can also set up for some interesting gameplay if you walljump off them, so it's not like they're only a downside. But I agree that the bumper and the ramps are a little stupid. I don't think it harms gameplay on the stage enough to not have it legal.

You can try a lot of things, as can your opponent, but that's besides the point. Point is, as I posted already, I ran that stage at a local tourney I TO'd, and matches took longer than they normally do. I can't imagine how bad it can get when someone knows what he does on that stage. Only thing we can do is run it at tournaments and wait for the results to run in.
And just to clarify once more, I'd happily see the stage ending up legal, I very much enjoy the layout, I just doubt it being viable.

 

[Kulty]

You can try a lot of things, as can your opponent, but that's besides the point. Point is, as I posted already, I ran that stage at a local tourney I TO'd, and matches took longer than they normally do. I can't imagine how bad it can get when someone knows what he does on that stage. Only thing we can do is run it at tournaments and wait for the results to run in.
And just to clarify once more, I'd happily see the stage ending up legal, I very much enjoy the layout, I just doubt it being viable.

WAIT! Is it considered to be legal already? What's the source?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Hi guys,

So being checking out replays of Peach Castle 64 (I didn't buy it yet, because I want to confirm if this stage is legal or not), I think I can say that it's mostly counterpick at best, but if it will be legalized, I bet that no one's gonna play on it just like its 64 counterpart (I think this stage was a counterpick as well according to the official 64 ruleset)! Anyway, I don't find the bumper too much of a big deal, but the wedges can be potential nuisance to competitive matches imo. Does the bumper still prevents vertical KOs at high percents? I heard that when you touch it while being launched off, you still get KOed but at a different angle. Can someone verify this? Not sure about it!

Also, not related to Peach Castle, but is Hyrule Castle 64 already considered banned? Where is the link to the discussion of the stage? Can't find it!

My thread covering the dry facts of the stage is in the Smash Academy subforum. You can try and get a discussion going there if you want, or you could make a dedicated discussion thread here I guess.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

WAIT! Is it considered to be legal already? What's the source?

Me? If I TO a tourney I can run whatever I want.

 

[Kulty]

Me? If I TO a tourney I can run whatever I want.

Oh okay! Sorry! Just wondering about it! However, this stage really needs further testing like Kongo Jungle 64. I don't know about Hyrule Castle 64 though.

 

[Luigi player]

You can try a lot of things, as can your opponent, but that's besides the point. Point is, as I posted already, I ran that stage at a local tourney I TO'd, and matches took longer than they normally do. I can't imagine how bad it can get when someone knows what he does on that stage. Only thing we can do is run it at tournaments and wait for the results to run in.
And just to clarify once more, I'd happily see the stage ending up legal, I very much enjoy the layout, I just doubt it being viable.

That's not besides the point, for me at least. It's exactly the point. It doesn't work, so do something else. Everyone knows it doesn't work. And it's not broken or anything, so where's the problem? I mean, I can understand if someone doesn't like it and finds it annoying, but for my standards (and they're pretty super high for stages) it's fine.

Can you link me the results of that tourney? I can imagine novice players taking longer to finish on that stage, but players who know what they're doing can probably KO earlier. On the bridge it has like the same height as Halberds lower platform, lol.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

That's not besides the point, for me at least. It's exactly the point. It doesn't work, so do something else. Everyone knows it doesn't work. And it's not broken or anything, so where's the problem? I mean, I can understand if someone doesn't like it and finds it annoying, but for my standards (and they're pretty super high for stages) it's fine.

Can you link me the results of that tourney? I can imagine novice players taking longer to finish on that stage, but players who know what they're doing can probably KO earlier. On the bridge it has like the same height as Halberds lower platform, lol.

Nope, no footage. No players you would know either since it's obviously in Germany lol. I might record footage at my next monthly.
You seem to not understand my hypothesis. My hypothesis is, the more you know about the stage, the longer the sets will take.
Now we, as a community, need to proof mine and yours right or wrong. Talking about it will do no good.

Oh okay! Sorry! Just wondering about it! However, this stage really needs further testing like Kongo Jungle 64. I don't know about Hyrule Castle 64 though.

I can't see Hyrule Castle being legal. Cave of life and huge camping potential if you stand on the lowest level.
I don't see any problems with Kongo Jungle besides that I absolutely hate that stage.

 

[Luigi player]

Nope, no footage. No players you would know either since it's obviously in Germany lol. I might record footage at my next monthly.
You seem to not understand my hypothesis. My hypothesis is, the more you know about the stage, the longer the sets will take.
Now we, as a community, need to proof mine and yours right or wrong. Talking about it will do no good.

I wasn't asking for footage, but for results. I'm part of the german smash scene, but you might be your own little community? Don't think I know you from your username.
I know what you mean, I just think it's the other way around.
But yeah, playing can show better how it is.

 

[Kulty]

Nope, no footage. No players you would know either since it's obviously in Germany lol. I might record footage at my next monthly.
You seem to not understand my hypothesis. My hypothesis is, the more you know about the stage, the longer the sets will take.
Now we, as a community, need to proof mine and yours right or wrong. Talking about it will do no good.



I can't see Hyrule Castle being legal. Cave of life and huge camping potential if you stand on the lowest level.
I don't see any problems with Kongo Jungle besides that I absolutely hate that stage.

I was actually thinking the same thing for Hyrule Castle, because it's so big that even in doubles, it's not gonna work. Mostly Peach Castle that I'm sure should be a counterpick legal stage. That's just me thought! Like I said, we'll just have to try on this stage in tournaments and see what's up with it.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

I wasn't asking for footage, but for results. I'm part of the german smash scene, but you might be your own little community? Don't think I know you from your username.
I know what you mean, I just think it's the other way around.
But yeah, playing can show better how it is.

Now I feel silly. And yeah we're pretty small and new. It might not surprise you that I live in east Germany. It's hard to find anything here so we had to do it on our own.

 

[Mr. Johan]

If the stage messes up Zamus's kill setups with Boost Kick and Bair, and doesn't affect other characters to that significant of a degree, then, by definition, that's considered a counterpick stage to take Zamus to or to force the Zamus player to ban.

It's no different from counterpicking a Little Mac to Duck Hunt, or banning Battlefield to avoid someone like WindKong running rampant there.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

If the stage messes up Zamus's kill setups with Boost Kick and Bair, and doesn't affect other characters to that significant of a degree, then, by definition, that's considered a counterpick stage to take Zamus to or to force the Zamus player to ban.

It's no different from counterpicking a Little Mac to Duck Hunt, or banning Battlefield to avoid someone like WindKong running rampant there.

Yes the bumper messes with her BnB combo, it messes with probably every hoo hah combo.
I agree that this is a good and counterpick worthy thing.
The ramps are not though since they don't mess with something specific, they mess with many many trajectories.

 

[FairyLip]

I think it's a really great counterpick stage, due to its unique layout. It's not ban-worthy, at least. It also buffs some characters who are just meh, like Mewtwo, who can Uthrow into an aerial combo using the bumper. It's also not OP, because bumper timing. Basically, it would add diversity and diverse playstyles to the meta. Heck, I might even say that it's default-worthy.

 

[RIP|Merrick]

Horizontal kills, even on the very edge of the lower bridge, take notably longer than vertical ones, which seem to be about the same as Final Destinations top blast zone if you're killing off the lowest main platform, or kills even earlier if you're on the even part of the top platform.