Data Patch 1.1.5. Let's Discuss The New MK

[Amadeus9]

So many MK pockets who havent done any labbing. What a waste of a thread

 

[Zeriora]

So many MK pockets who havent done any labbing. What a waste of a thread

The people that are complaining that MK is bad or is good, are useless in this thread. We want to learn about MK's new up air, we don't want complaining about his tier...

 

[Sol0ke]

I was playing friendlies at Smash club today and apparently up air chains still work somewhat? I was able to land 3 up airs on a Pikachu before I had to land an up b. I don't think the up air angle can combo into any other move reliably, as the opponent had time to air dodge or DI out of it before I can do anything else.

Basically the new up air can still combo into itself, just not nearly as much with most characters. Sorry if this is nothing new.

 

[RosalinA]

I was playing friendlies at Smash club today and apparently up air chains still work somewhat? I was able to land 3 up airs on a Pikachu before I had to land an up b. I don't think the up air angle can combo into any other move reliably, as the opponent had time to air dodge or DI out of it before I can do anything else.

Basically the new up air can still combo into itself, just not nearly as much with most characters. Sorry if this is nothing new.

I've been able to do that as well, and with 4-6 on heavier characters, but with fastfalling. Is that what you did too, or did you somehow hit all 3 up-airs regularly?

 

[Sol0ke]

I've been able to do that as well, and with 4-6 on heavier characters, but with fastfalling. Is that what you did too, or did you somehow hit all 3 up-airs regularly?

Yeah, I had to fastfall a bit to get the combo.

 

[Jamurai]

Uair combos still work on people who can't DI optimally, or who don't know what quarter circle SDI is. If an opponent panics and doesn't combo DI properly then it will still work in a match, but it's definitely nothing to rely on. Uair combos are effectively dead for the purpose of mid to high level play.

 

[Zeriora]

Lemme just say Up air to down air to forward air works at early %'s like 20 - 30.. which is a very short range. Just a note for you guys.

 

[RosalinA]

Lemme just say Up air to down air to forward air works at early %'s like 20 - 30.. which is a very short range. Just a note for you guys.

Nice. Did you just get the up-air to start the combo, or did you do something like a dash attack or a forward throw.

 

[Zeriora]

Nice. Did you just get the up-air to start the combo, or did you do something like a dash attack or a forward throw.

I've been using both, both seems to work, Down throw though, has a DI option. Which makes it harder, dash attack is most reliable.

 

[RosalinA]

I've been using both, both seems to work, Down throw though, has a DI option. Which makes it harder, dash attack is most reliable.

Thanks. Also, which part of dash attack did you hit with, the tip, which sends you straight up, or the later part, which sends you at a more horizontal position.

 

[ToluDude]

I honestly still feel that he's a top tier character. Worse but nothing critical.

 

[RosalinA]

I honestly still feel that he's a top tier character. Worse but nothing critical.

Yes.

 

[Amadeus9]

Ironic ****posting is still ****posting, fyi

 

[Dr. Shades]

The way things have been going, I see MK as a high risk medium reward character. His predictable approach and short range made him difficult to learn, but going in and pulling off insane air combos was so much fun that it was worth it. MK also has trouble at higher percents, especially when trying to land the kill. His recovery is great, but his light weight counteracts that. As a MK main, I felt that the effort I put into the character was counteracted by characters that take less effort to learn. After this patch, I feel that it's even more so. I want to enjoy playing, not put my soul into the character only to be beaten by one mistake. MK is fun to play, but stresses me out if I want to do well. I'm having less fun and I don't feel motivated to play, knowing I have a very low chance of winning.

Maybe that's why Pokken is more appealing to me right now, the mechanics and combos are easier to pick up, but the burst mode can turn any match on its head. The characters all have a good balance of pros and cons, from Weavile's low health/attack but godlike combos, to Machamp's slow speed but high HP/powerful command grabs. Each character can succeed if played correctly and any shortcomings can be covered by the support Pokemon.

Sure Pokken has shortcomings, but each loss I had online never felt unfair or cheated, excluding lag. It was my fault I kept predictably pressing air X with Weavile after a phase shift. With MK, I don't get any of that. It's hard to keep playing a character when all your efforts yield no progress, but I still want to stick with my main until the end, regardless of his tier placement. I want MK to be fun and rewarding to play as. I get the feeling MK is more like Gen in SF4. Crazy potential, but the complexity and difficulty of mastery just make him less viable than other characters. Maybe I'm just a terrible player. Who knows?

 

[Zeriora]

Thanks. Also, which part of dash attack did you hit with, the tip, which sends you straight up, or the later part, which sends you at a more horizontal position.

I seem to do better with the later part, but the the tip still works I believe. I haven't tested much.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Not sure if this is the right thread but would the Bidou layout be worth learning? MK has an extremely long perfect pivot so I know it already has potential but what are its applications? I feel like this scheme would let you use 1.1.5 MK at his full potential (instant dash attack alone is amazing), not entirely sure though. Any more experienced MK players have any input on it?

 

[Jamurai]

You can do most of the stuff Bidou lets you do without ****ing up your control scheme. For example, you can instant dash attack with normal controls by dashing one way and instantly pushing the C-stick down.

Losing attack C-stick seems pretty bad to me. It's really important for linking Uairs and Dairs, among other things. So, basically not worth it in my eyes.

There are much more important things to be working on, like labbing the new Uair, instead of trying to perfect niche tech.

 

[iVoltage]

I've found one of the best way to use the new upair is to hit with the back half of the hitbox, you can hit 2 most of the time into a bair reset. You can always go for a couple more and up-b but I can see this useful because it doesn't stale SL and can force edgeguarding situations on characters with a bad recovery.

 

[RosalinA]

I've found one of the best way to use the new upair is to hit with the back half of the hitbox, you can hit 2 most of the time into a bair reset. You can always go for a couple more and up-b but I can see this useful because it doesn't stale SL and can force edgeguarding situations on characters with a bad recovery.

So can you dash attack and then reverse up-air, or did you just get a back air and start the combo? And did you have to fastfall the up airs?

 

[iVoltage]

So can you dash attack and then reverse up-air, or did you just get a back air and start the combo? And did you have to fastfall the up airs?

Either way is fine and no you shouldn't need to fastfall them but it may be character dependant. Just do a little testing around.

 

[Zeriora]

I've been doing the back air reset much more frequently then I did pre-patch. Sadly the punish after the reset isn't as reliable as it was pre-patch.

 

[RosalinA]

I've been doing the back air reset much more frequently then I did pre-patch. Sadly the punish after the reset isn't as reliable as it was pre-patch.

How so? Are you saying it's more predictable, because only once has an opponent teched it for me. Also, somewhat important, is abadango still using meta knight? I know we have Tyrant who is still doing amazing and beat VoiD recently, but Abadango was the one who won the big national tournaments, and without him, we do lose some big tournament results.

 

[Jamurai]

After a Bair lock I just use Tornado for that big damage or Fsmash if I want them offstage.

Pretty sure Aba has dropped MK. Not surprising tbh.

 

[RosalinA]

After a Bair lock I just use Tornado for that big damage or Fsmash if I want them offstage.

Pretty sure Aba has dropped MK. Not surprising tbh.

Darn it. He was the only one doing the legnthy meta knight combos, the combos ilke the ones posted on this thread, in tournament, and it was really cool watching him play.

Edit:
I don't think he's actually dropped, seeing as he used meta knight recently in a tournament in Japan, and won. Granted he didn't use him in grand finals (he used mewtwo) but that's because he was coming in from the losers side. He used Meta Knight for every other match.

 

[warionumbah2]

Abadango only won one big tournament, didn't do well at G3 and took MK to top 15 at TBH5 something Tyrants already done at CEO and Paragon(?).

Also beating Void a few days after his character got butchered isn't a huge achievement at all, heck every set Tyrant went vs Void was to game 5. After he had more time to play he beats Tyrant convincingly on MSM 43. MK users got way too happy over Tyrant beating Void. Let the Sheiks actually settle with the character again.

 

[RosalinA]

Abadango only won one big tournament, didn't do well at G3 and took MK to top 15 at TBH5 something Tyrants already done at CEO and Paragon(?).

Also beating Void a few days after his character got butchered isn't a huge achievement at all, heck every set Tyrant went vs Void was to game 5. After he had more time to play he beats Tyrant convincingly on MSM 43. MK users got way too happy over Tyrant beating Void.

Are you considering Japanese tournaments as well when talking about abadango?

 

[Magnemite]

After a Bair lock I just use Tornado for that big damage or Fsmash if I want them offstage.

Pretty sure Aba has dropped MK. Not surprising tbh.

adding on to this you can also bair lock them again as they get up if you don't think they'll tech it (and if you have enough room left on the stage)

 

[Amadeus9]

im glad aba is dropping mk (if he is), he was maximum fraud mk

 

[Zeriora]

How so? Are you saying it's more predictable, because only once has an opponent teched it for me. Also, somewhat important, is abadango still using meta knight? I know we have Tyrant who is still doing amazing and beat VoiD recently, but Abadango was the one who won the big national tournaments, and without him, we do lose some big tournament results.

The punish can't be an insta-kill at 20 to 40%, It used to, As Jamurai quoted, Tornado is a good option for the top amount of damage.

 

[RosalinA]

So I guess Abadango quit Meta Knight and moved onto Mewtwo. On that note, was there any Meta Knight representation at Pound 2016?

 

[metanight1311]

Seibrik was there and I saw him beat Le troof, a bayonetta player. Funny thing was Seibrik finished the last stock of last game with an up-air string to up-b.

 

[warionumbah2]

Seibrik drowned, Jband got 25th. Thats it sadly. At least Tyrant won a regional beating Mr concon twice, Falln and Rich Brown.

 

[Freakzoid9000MS]

http://youtu.be/B5Y8FmPx1K4 That moment when you accidentally bnf

Also, here is an MK side blast zone kill example with DI away in a real match.
http://youtu.be/mwSiwKjktEA

 

[RosalinA]

Also, here is an MK side blast zone kill example with DI away in a real match.
http://youtu.be/mwSiwKjktEA

This just makes me wonder even more if meta knight is still top 10, which I think he is. I mean, it seems like they overall buffed his ledge game with combos that now kill on the side, and I mean it's not like the up air to up b combo doesn't work anymore, it's just a bit more complicated to pull off.
Here's a link to see what I'm talking about for the meta knight combos:
https://m.youtube.com/user/MrAmadeusGames/videos?shelf_id=1&sort=dd&view=0

 

[Yσנιмιтѕυ]

At top level play, MK is definitely still perfectly viable. His combos are notably harder to pull off but it is still possible to deal an incredible amount of damage and his fsmash alone is an incredibly scary and unpredictable kill option. UpB OOS can also punish a lot, and beat out neutral options if your opponent is at high percent.

Right now the definitive MK is Leo, with wins over Dabuz, Nairo, m2k to say the least with post-nerf MK. His combo strings mixed with reads make all other MK mains look like noobs.

 

[Ulevo]

I do not think Leo is the premier Meta Knight main. After talking with him, he said he is keeping Meta Knight, but primarily for certain match ups, such as Rosalina and Ryu. He plays Cloud and Marth in most important matches, and the few times he has played Meta Knight recently he has looked unpolished relative to how he was a few months ago.

Ito is the only Meta Knight that has the match up knowledge and reasonably refined punish game that strictly uses Meta Knight in every important game. Tyrant tends to switch off the character when he is not doing well, and his punish game is no where near what Ito's is. Both of these players have different strengths but Ito has a more complete package.

 

[Yσנιмιтѕυ]

I do not think Leo is the premier Meta Knight main. After talking with him, he said he is keeping Meta Knight, but primarily for certain match ups, such as Rosalina and Ryu. He plays Cloud and Marth in most important matches, and the few times he has played Meta Knight recently he has looked unpolished relative to how he was a few months ago.

Ito is the only Meta Knight that has the match up knowledge and reasonably refined punish game that strictly uses Meta Knight in every important game. Tyrant tends to switch off the character when he is not doing well, and his punish game is no where near what Ito's is. Both of these players have different strengths but Ito has a more complete package.

Both Tyrant and Ito lack the results needed to place them at title of "Best Meta Knight". Though they do most likely have more tournament experience with Meta Knight and Ito almost exclusively plays the character, neither have been able to compete at the same level as Leo. Leo is also just a fundamentally better player than both Ito and Tyrant and is more capable of taking a national tournament with Meta Knight.

 

[Ulevo]

Both Tyrant and Ito lack the results needed to place them at title of "Best Meta Knight". Though they do most likely have more tournament experience with Meta Knight and Ito almost exclusively plays the character, neither have been able to compete at the same level as Leo. Leo is also just a fundamentally better player than both Ito and Tyrant and is more capable of taking a national tournament with Meta Knight.

Who does Leo have wins over with Meta Knight out of region post-patch that are significant? You listed Nairo, M2K, and Dabuz. Ito has wins over Zinoto, Larry Lurr, M2K, Tyrant, Zenyou, Elegant, Trevonte, just to name a few.

The ability to compete at national level that you are referring to that Leo has demonstrated has been with Cloud and Marth. Ever since Leo's debut at Canada Cup he has avoided using Meta Knight in majors outside of key match ups, certainly more so than either of those two players.

This is like me saying that Larry Lurr is the best Donkey Kong even though he hardly ever uses it, simply because he has the best results as a player, who happens to use Donkey Kong occasionally.

 

[Yσנιмιтѕυ]

Who does Leo have wins over with Meta Knight out of region post-patch that are significant? You listed Nairo, M2K, and Dabuz. Ito has wins over Zinoto, Larry Lurr, M2K, Tyrant, Zenyou, Elegant, Trevonte, just to name a few.

The ability to compete at national level that you are referring to that Leo has demonstrated has been with Cloud and Marth. Ever since Leo's debut at Canada Cup he has avoided using Meta Knight in majors outside of key match ups, certainly more so than either of those two players.

This is like me saying that Larry Lurr is the best Donkey Kong even though he hardly ever uses it, simply because he has the best results as a player, who happens to use Donkey Kong occasionally.

You make a good point. Most notably Leo has beaten Nairo and Dabuz with MK twice now both of those were at Goml and Ktar, 3-1 and 3-0 respectively which I don't think either Ito or Tyrant could pull off.

 

[Ulevo]

You make a good point. Most notably Leo has beaten Nairo and Dabuz with MK twice now both of those were at Goml and Ktar, 3-1 and 3-0 respectively which I don't think either Ito or Tyrant could pull off.

I think Ito is capable of playing against Nairo, particularly if Abadango was able to do it pre-parch, who is not as proficient. Also, it is still a notable win, but lets not oversell a top Meta Knight beating a top Rosalina.