Palutena in Neutral

[rpgcaster]

I posted something similar in the Shulk threads. How are people managing a neutral situation with Palutena? I find I'm having some issues with gaining momentum and approaching the opponent in general but it feels like Palutena doesn't really have the tools with which to do this (or they're too predictable). In short, what moves should I be relying on. I'm fine with follow ups and mixups but it's getting in to do what I'm actually capable of doing that I struggle with.

 

[Rashid]

From my experience, there's not many ways to get in if you're not running Superspeed. If you are, then just mix it up. Simple enough.

If you're not, you're gonna have to rely on AR (or EF if that strikes your fancy) to zone them in. If they get closer, your best bet is to SH fair or bair, or jab. If you find an opening for a grab, go for it, since that's the best she has.

... I think I'll wait for better responses.

 

[Rainiris]

For the slower, patient opponents that stand still intil you're close enough, I just take a few steps forwrd,, and spam AR to force them into moving. They're usually open for dash attacks in thsi scenario.

Opponents that approach you first will eat jab, or Dash Attack if they're using a special.

On paper, it's impossible for Palutena to defeat any opponent who are fast enough to double the ammount of actions she takes per aciton (cycles faster), since her default moveset is configured for lockdown&punish.

When facing opponents that rely heavily on projectiles, don't fear overspamming the Reflect Barrier. They'll end up panicking and either eating their projectile to dead or eating a big whole Dash Attack atetmpting to approach you.

Her dash attack is easily her best initiator outside grabs. If you're not feeling safe, you can just jump and use AR mid air so the projectiles work in some sort of barrage attack (if the projectile animation starts before descending).

tl;dr you need to force them to make a mistake.

 

[Cosmo!]

I like shff fair, jab, dash attack, grab, superspeed, and roll. and dtilt sometimes I guess.

 

[DD_]

I like shff fair, jab, dash attack, grab, superspeed, and roll. and dtilt sometimes I guess.

I like this, but i'll throw in nair as well. I try to either crossup or fade away while using it so when people mesh on throw the hitbox is still out and they eat a few %. Can follow up with a jab or roll.

 

[Hydde]

Her dash attaxck is indeed lovely.

 

[scalpel]

I never approach with Palutena. Just autoreticle until they come, then use down tilt. Her down tilt has the longest range out of all of her attacks, has the lowest cooldown out of all the tilts, and launches the opponent away very far. Very underrated attack. The hit box is so wide that it even hits behind Palutena's body slightly (useful in case an opponent rolls behind you).

 

[ChivalRuse]

Auto reticle sucks. I just pretend that I don't have it.

I tend to just dash near where my opponent is and wait for him to do something laggy/predictable. Then just d-throw->nair->profit.

 

[Thinkaman]

With Palutena, there is no neutral.

There is only time waiting for Super Speed to come off cooldown.

 

[rpgcaster]

With Palutena, there is no neutral.

There is only time waiting for Super Speed to come off cooldown.

Okay. If it's not too much trouble, is there a video or something that I can see this in action. Cause I don't find spamming SS to be effective so I assume I'm doing something wrong.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Okay. If it's not too much trouble, is there a video or something that I can see this in action. Cause I don't find spamming SS to be effective so I assume I'm doing something wrong.

Super Speed's awesomeness isn't so much about the attack itself, but rather the ability to use pretty much any part of your kit while moving towards your opponent at high speed.

http://smashboards.com/threads/supe...ed-to-stop-worrying-and-love-the-bair.374449/

 

[rpgcaster]

Super Speed's awesomeness isn't so much about the attack itself, but rather the ability to use pretty much any part of your kit while moving towards your opponent at high speed.

http://smashboards.com/threads/supe...ed-to-stop-worrying-and-love-the-bair.374449/

I'm aware of that. It'd be a mediocre at best move if it was just a charge without the options. I just feel that approaching with SS feels rather predictable and linear. Which is why, I'm not doubting it's goodness, I just want to see applications in battle. I've seen plenty in combo videos and showcases but not in actual proper matches.

 

[Ceph]

I'm aware of that. It'd be a mediocre at best move if it was just a charge without the options. I just feel that approaching with SS feels rather predictable and linear. Which is why, I'm not doubting it's goodness, I just want to see applications in battle. I've seen plenty in combo videos and showcases but not in actual proper matches.

I recently saw a great example:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Cuh2FNQ7Gj0

 

[Arya Greyjoy]

From personal experience, using absolutely nothing but neutral Palutena, I've found that as you could probably guess Neutral Palutena is incredibly, uh, inconsistent would be the word I guess. How you play neutral Palutena seems to be entirely based on the matchup, and 90% of times centered on counter/reflect lures or AR until they approach you. (However, it's never easy to coax somebody into approaching palu once they understand you're packing not just reflect but counter too and not ashamed.)
Dash is great for getting things started, if you play it right. N Palutena can honestly apply a ton if pressure if you really know the opponent and what works when,aside from dthrows & well placed dashes there doesn't seem to be a safe "go to" for N Palu

 

[Eisal]

Newbie here, and I'm wondering what you mean with Neutral Palutena?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but does it mean that you play her more 'bait' like? You don't do much until the opponent does a move?

Thanks!

 

[ChivalRuse]

Neutral means without custom moveset.

Another way that you can use the term neutral is with reference to game state: edgeguarding vs comboing vs wake-up vs air trapping/juggling vs neutral. But that isn't the context here.

 

[rpgcaster]

Neutral means without custom moveset.

Another way that you can use the term neutral is with reference to game state: edgeguarding vs comboing vs wake-up vs air trapping/juggling vs neutral. But that isn't the context here.

Yeah, I was referring specifically to the game state. Most people use the term "Default" for no customs.

 

[Eisal]

Alright, thanks for clearing it up for me!

 

[Palutina]

She actually reminds me a lot of my other main, Gouken, in street fighter. Really strong but has some very exploitable weaknesses.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Wow I misread you pretty badly then lol.

 

[DeliriousPirate]

A lot of the time, in a stand off, her ground game is weaker than other characters, so more often than not, I find myself baiting out their committal to something to close the distance. It could be them committing to a roll, jump, dashing attack, dashing and then canceling with guard consecutively, or for faster characters, just a simple surprise DACUS.

In order to bait those things, I'll usually throw out moves from a spaced distance that I know will stagger their advance, or cause a reaction, like a small backwards hopping b-reversal while they're grounded so that my AR is angled downward from a higher point and more difficult to progress through. This puts me in a good position when they slow down to get aggressive and put them in a guessing situation.

Also, ironically enough, when the area on the stage is available, utilizing pivot smashing while dashing away to keep yourself spaced from their advance. This usually puts yourself in a great position to halt their dash attack, dashing grab or DACUS by using the wings' pushback to catch them off-guard and go on the offensive with a dash attack during lag time, or a dthrow + DACUS read/or fair.

Implementing DownB into your game in some way shape or form during your neutral game will get you in your opponents head and make them second guess their advance. I actually enjoy being in Neutral game due to the annoyance of AR and the free damage/aggressive options it provides.

The more I play her, the more I find it necessary to deeply understand the game and its characters. Just as with any fighting game, the more you know about your opponents character and what they're capable of, the better off you'll be.

 

[InfinityCollision]

a simple surprise DACUS.

I guarantee you're not doing a DACUS.

AR only gets you so far. It's rightly called a poor man's forced approach; it's slow, laggy, and easy for an aware opponent to avoid. Fortunately Palutena likes it when her opponent takes to the air, so it's still somewhat usefull.

Scan usually get out of bad positions fairly easily, so you can just space normals as needed once they approach without putting yourself at too much risk. Characters that can play a speedy rushdown or zone-break game make things harder given Palutena's relatively high commitment to many of her attacks.

 

[DeliriousPirate]

When I said "a simple surprise DACUS", it was from the receiving end, not the Palutena in neutral. Read the sentence. I was implying that faster characters can simply dash quickly in and "surprise DACUS" if they're thirsty.

 

[InfinityCollision]

You're not doing a DACUS, they're not doing a DACUS, it doesn't really matter who you were referring to here because either way they're not doing a DACUS. DACUS stands for Dash Attack Canceled Up Smash, and it was removed from Smash 4 in the 1.0.4 3DS patch.

 

[Rashid]

You're not doing a DACUS, they're not doing a DACUS, it doesn't really matter who you were referring to here because either way they're not doing a DACUS. DACUS stands for Dash Attack Canceled Up Smash, and it was removed from Smash 4 in the 1.0.4 3DS patch.

Are you 100% sure about that? Some people claim they can still do it. Maybe it's easier on a Wii U... but I don't have one yet, so I can't say for sure.

 

[InfinityCollision]

People who claim they can do a DACUS in 1.0.4/on the Wii U don't know what a DACUS is. It's gone.

 

[DeliriousPirate]

Its the quick way of saying you dashed and csticked up. No, you can't truly DACUS anymore, but its much easier to type and have people understand in the smash community than typing out Dashing upsmash.

 

[InfinityCollision]

No, it's not the quick way. It's the wrong way.

If you're talking about a running usmash, call it a running usmash. There's nothing unclear about it. If you're talking about a JC usmash, call it a JC usmash. If you're talking about a DACUS, call it a DACUS - but don't call something a DACUS when it's not. Look two posts up from yours to see what happens when you misuse terms. Or ask @ Thinkaman about the headache he got from people claiming they could DACUS after 1.0.4 came out despite his tests, mine, and those of others clearly showing that it was no longer in the game.

 

[DeliriousPirate]

Sure, no prob. Either way, I feel like you're clinging onto the wrong part of my post. You latch onto errors like they're your path to some victory in a debate that didn't exist. My point was, she has a lot of options. I can appreciate your sincerity in wanting people to use a correct term to clear confusion, but don't attack me as if i'm a moron from the get-go.

 

[Zediwonder]

DACUS definitely doesn't exist, the closest thing is super speed jump cancelled up smash (SSJCUS?) which isn't neutral Palutena.

Regardless, if you're playing neutral Palutena auto reticle is good sometimes and only sometimes I've found it safer than explosive flame for the most part but it is still a poor man's forced approach with pretty much any projectile on any other character outclassing it especially with the atrocious start and end lag.

Palutena is difficult to learn in Neutral, no doubt, her attacks are designed almost purely to KO with barely any made for putting on damage to get the KO's, her tilts do decent damage, I personally like using her dtilt very very rarely, her smashes have great damage in comparison but have so much end lag that using them at low % you're almost guaranteed to take more damage in punishment than you dealt.

I originally thought that I should never use Palutena's smash attacks unless I was going for a kill to avoid staling or a punished whiff, however everything in moderation, whiffing a grab is just as bad as whiffing a smash but there are still safe ways to do it, Warp into fsmash, dsmash or whatever can throw your opponent off though is still really dangerous.

The safest solution is of course fishing out fairs and bairs and the occasional dair when needed, saving your uair for KO's and using nair appropriately. Outside of this I haven't really found a way to make Palutena work great in Neutral, dthrow into fair isn't enough and the other moves don't hit consistently enough. I played today with customs after going 2 weeks playing her default set and the difference is honestly shocking, there's so much more versatility to her just adding super speed or light weight, gimmicky Reflect does not come close and counter while great in the right circumstance does not win over way better movement options.

Best solution in neutral for me: just play it safe, the ledge is not your friend in Smash 4, opponents will guaranteed stage spike you if you go for it.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Sure, no prob. Either way, I feel like you're clinging onto the wrong part of my post. You latch onto errors like they're your path to some victory in a debate that didn't exist. My point was, she has a lot of options. I can appreciate your sincerity in wanting people to use a correct term to clear confusion, but don't attack me as if i'm a moron from the get-go.

This was my initial reply on the only portion of your post that I responded to:

I guarantee you're not doing a DACUS.

One brief sentence before I moved on to other things. Don't read into it too much.

Back to the original topic: Palutena has tools to beat literally any approach. Default Palutena's neutral game is basically built to do exactly that, with just enough midrange presence to force most opponents to approach... but again, risk due to commitment and/or startup limits her success in setting up a defensive wall. Most of her hits aren't super rewarding either, so she has to play the long game instead of pressing her advantage. Can't run away forever either, though it's kind of fun to try (customs even let her cross under Big Battlefield). Hence the significance of her customs: increased mobility improves her options for aggression and potentially extends her reward off a hit confirm, fleshing out her gameplan.