Pac-Man Vs. : Matchup Discussion Thread- R.O.B. (Pac-MAN V.S Machine)

[Nu~]

Maybe I should change the discussion to sonic...lol

 

[Froggy]

Nah we did Sonic already. It's one of our most defined matchups where the strategy is very clear cut. No need ot go over it.

On a side note: starting to realize I'm not very good athis game unless I practice a lot. I lose my sharpness

 

[Froggy]

Maybe I should change the discussion to sonic...lol

But we should be doing Link and not Fox, that one seems to be giving more people here more trouble.

 

[Nu~]

Perhaps but fox is a much more relevant matchup. When will we ever see a link making top 8 in a national? It even top 32? He isn't nearly as prevalent in the meta as fox is and I have a feeling that he never will.

And I do see plenty of people here complain about fox.

Pac-man can Side-B all his projectiles and get a free 2% heal off them, even the bombs. As far as things that aren't gimmicky though, The hydrant posses most of the power in this MU, none of Link's projectiles can launch the hydrant alone, making it really useful as a shield. All of his sword attacks with the exception of Jab, launch the hydrant at really high angles as well, allowing Pac-man to just wait on the other side and punish Link if he tries to throw it at him.

This essentially sums up my feelings on the link matchup. I feel that people are struggling against wifi links due to the inability to punish him in that kind of lag.

Edit: well, this definitely doesn't sum up the entire matchup. But it does show how much we beat him in neutral. He's forced to approach...and we all know how bad link can be at that.

 

[Splebel]

To bring this back on topic I don't usually fight good Foxes but I like fighting him better than Falco. I feel you can do this matchup two ways:

Method 1: Approach

Fox's reflector doesn't get in your face like Falco's so you can approach with a melon as it will stop all of Fox's lasers and gives you a variety of options as well. Bonus points if you throw it from hand so he can't grab it. His options are to grab it (Not Available if you hand toss it), Jump, Shield/PowerShield, hit it with jab or something like it, or reflect. You can simplify it down into either he will shield/reflect it (most likely reflect) or jump over it. If you keep the pressure on he won't likely grab it as his Close Quarters game would take a dive. A technique I like to use on Foxes and really anyone who is reflector happy is throw the melon follow behind it and when it's reflected, Pellet Heal. They will either try to dash attack you after a while or stop reflecting. Either way you have an advantage. When you finally get in watch out for a surprise Fire Fox or Side B. Those seem to be Fox's get away options.

Method 2: Camp Him Out

A slower and safer way is to camp him out as suggested by others already. I find this works unless he doesn't want to approach because in terms of damage I feel he wins the long game but that is only because of Fox's Lasers and Reflectors. However if he does decide to approach, trampoline shuts down the dreaded running Up Smash he is known for so always have that out between you. When the trampoline is out Fox has several Options. Wait, Standard jump approach, laser spam, very short hop side B. None of those are anything special or troublesome except for the last one. Very few Foxes I fight do this so I tend to be caught offguard by it. Shielding should be effective though.

Keep in mind none of these ways really set up any kind of kills on him. He has a reflector and our smashes are too laggy. Offstage though I feel we do well.

Fox gets back primarily three ways, jumping back on, side B to stage Side B/Fire Fox to ledge. Fox might be immune to the standard ledge guarding tactics when he jumps off the ledge slightly and side b's back but that could just be me. Side b back on stage can be countered with an orange/melon/key but if he sees it coming Fox will pop out reflector instead. I've had luck with reading it with a fair and let Fox run into Pac's Foot; which is as hilarious as it sounds. He might counter by using Side B a lot higher up so that falls more under the first scenario.

Also does any know what fox is doing when he is repeatedly spamming reflector offstage as he's falling? I feel like it's a trap so I don't go for it but I don't know.

 

[Megamon]

You sure about that? I thought a Sonic player at our local was better than me until I started playing the matchup correctly.

Yeah. he places well even w/o Sonic I think. Just felt like beating me with him maybe? Not sure.

 

[Nu~]

A technique I like to use on Foxes and really anyone who is reflector happy is throw the melon follow behind it and when it's reflected, Pellet Heal. They will either try to dash attack you after a while or stop reflecting. Either way you have an advantage.

This is genius and I don't know I why haven't thought of it before. We can do this to every character with a reflector...
Bait them with cherries and strawberries , then heal off of it. This will scare anyone with a reflector!

I'm going to have to disagree with never using our smashes though. Our usmash is frame 13 and scoops up opponents pretty well, and our Fsmash is really good for opponents that try to approach you from the air or rush in with an attack. Ghosts beat almost everything.

I feel that this matchup is pretty easy. Camp behind trampoline and play like you would against Mario. Only differences are that fox can't kill you with a throw, is combo meat, and dies very early. If he gets in, his attacks are generally faster, but your utilt beats any aerial approach he uses.

Edit: this matchup is certainly not free though. He will smash your face in if he gets too many hit confirms. We can combo him back, but his combos are generally more reliable (without including our fruit trap combos that take time to set up)

 

[Splebel]

This is genius and I don't know I why haven't thought of it before. We can do this to every character with a reflector...
Bait them with cherries and strawberries , then heal off of it. This will scare anyone with a reflector!

I'm going to have to disagree with never using our smashes though. Our usmash is frame 13 and scoops up opponents pretty well, and our Fsmash is really good for opponents that try to approach you from the air or rush in with an attack. Ghosts beat almost everything.

Wow I feel special about my reflector strategy now.

I think I use smashes too late because I usually get punished for it. I get into numerous situations where I will punish/read and the opponent will be able to stop whatever they are doing and smash me while my fsmash starts up.

Also I didn't say never use them. It might've been implied. My opinion is to be more conservative but I've also never tried to beat out an aerial with them.

 

[DavemanCozy]

We're also discussing Pac-Man in our MU discussion thread as one of the three for our bi-weekly mu mashup:

http://smashboards.com/threads/all-...sion-thread-peach-king-dedede-pac-man.393061/

vs

 

[Capt.GinyuTx]

I'm not too sure on how to start a game against a Fox. I'm kinda new to Pacman and Smash in general. If there's a platform I jump on it and charge. If it's FD I'll either jump and charge or charge on my hydrant. I really like your reflector strategy! Any other tips or tricks on how to start against him? Local Fox gives me trouble sometimes

 

[Splebel]

Thanks. Although it doesn't seem to work on Palutena's reflector that well cause she likes to auto reticle and that can hit the melon on the way back. I would be careful about jumping on platforms because Fox likes to run up and up smash. It might hit the lower platforms of Battlefield.

To start I like to drop a hydrant because a lot like to spam lasers right off the bat. Some read it and jump but you will only take like 2-3% at the most. Fox's lasers can't break the hydrant.

Something I also forgot to mention in my big post above was occasionally if I have fruit charged to about the melon and I'm at midrange and Fox starts laser spamming. I like to charge it up to key and throw it. If he doesn't see it coming, though he should, his lasers have too much cool down to react to it. I would only try this around midrange and kill percent. Also only do it once cause he can catch on and punish it.

 

[Nu~]

Thanks. Although it doesn't seem to work on Palutena's reflector that well cause she likes to auto reticle and that can hit the melon on the way back. I would be careful about jumping on platforms because Fox likes to run up and up smash. It might hit the lower platforms of Battlefield.

To start I like to drop a hydrant because a lot like to spam lasers right off the bat. Some read it and jump but you will only take like 2-3% at the most. Fox's lasers can't break the hydrant.

Something I also forgot to mention in my big post above was occasionally if I have fruit charged to about the melon and I'm at midrange and Fox starts laser spamming. I like to charge it up to key and throw it. If he doesn't see it coming, though he should, his lasers have too much cool down to react to it. I would only try this around midrange and kill percent. Also only do it once cause he can catch on and punish it.

What I like to do to palutena's reflector is draw my power pellet line onto it. The pellet drops and we get a free heal if Palutena gets too liberal with reflect.

 

[Splebel]

What I like to do to palutena's reflector is draw my power pellet line onto it. The pellet drops and we get a free heal if Palutena gets too liberal with reflect.

My only problem with that is I would probably do it and it will carry me into her and she'll punish and get a quick heal. I find a surprise apple or bell over the reflector works. The pellet can also usually block every hit of auto reticle before the pellet drops if you send it out and hit the first shot.

 

[Nu~]

My only problem with that is I would probably do it and it will carry me into her and she'll punish and get a quick heal. I find a surprise apple or bell over the reflector works. The pellet can also usually block every hit of auto reticle before the pellet drops if you send it out and hit the first shot.

If the pellet drops early enough, you won't be sent into her. You just can't fully extend the pellet. Although, I do agree with your methods as well

 

[Nu~]

If we're done here, let's move on to someone else...

Anybody want to talk about Pikachu?

 

[Splebel]

I would actually want to talk about Yoshi because it seems like everyone who plays Yoshi is amazing at him. I tend to have trouble with his egg toss move, dair (although that is more of me not holding shield for as long as I should), and his Fair.

Pikachu doesn't seem hard when I fight him, pellet heal off neutral B spam, You should never get hit by headbutt. Pellet may stop Pikachu but it ain't worth it if it does, Thunder is weird in this game, and Quick attack while annoying won't kill you and Pikachu tends to be predictable with it so you can tend to shield it.

Pikachu's Back air can be a pain though.

 

[NimbusSpark]

I would actually want to talk about Yoshi because it seems like everyone who plays Yoshi is amazing at him. I tend to have trouble with his egg toss move, dair (although that is more of me not holding shield for as long as I should), and his Fair.

Pikachu doesn't seem hard when I fight him, pellet heal off neutral B spam, You should never get hit by headbutt. Pellet may stop Pikachu but it ain't worth it if it does, Thunder is weird in this game, and Quick attack while annoying won't kill you and Pikachu tends to be predictable with it so you can tend to shield it.

Pikachu's Back air can be a pain though.

Agreed with Yoshi. He's the character everyone (especially me, in honest opinion) pretty much hates to fight, aside from Shiek, obviously. I understand though that one of the best ways of taking him down is take advantage of Pac's great offstage game, and take him out when he's rid of his second jump due the fairly poor recovery distance his Egg Throw covers?

Also, on a secondary note, Pikachu's air game isn't too good in 'general situations'. Don't get me wrong. The data isn't too bad, it's more so the landing lag almost all of his moves provide, except for Forward Air. Back Air and Down Air both respectively have a massive 30/40 frames of lag, therefore if the Pikachu is reckless in the air they're most likely going to get punished.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Hey Pacs the boards are talking about her bad MUs(any that she loses)
Mind coming by and elaborating on how hard it is and why she loses to PAC?
http://smashboards.com/threads/jigglypuffs-bad-mus.411739/page-2#post-19969403

 

[Splebel]

This guy in the Jigglypuff thread thinks Kirby shuts us down. Ha.

Edit: Now a day later, I was on FG and saw a rare sight: another Pacman player. I also happened to be Pacman and after that ditto (He lost) he switched to Kirby and I was like, "Where do people keep getting this idea from?" I think people think Kirby destroys Pacman because Kirby has a huge advantage over Pacman while he's recovering because of stone. I still beat his Kirby though (He didn't try even once to get Pac's power).

 

[LanceStern]

Is there a way to update the first post with the boards' overall consensus on matchup ratios?

 

[LanceStern]

"bait you and punish you all day because he's so fast" -revengeska
Where can I find these definitions for these ratios? Please post a link. Thank you.

It's on the first post of this topic.

And Kirby is a nightmare to play against as Pac Man

 

[Nu~]

It's on the first post of this topic.

And Kirby is a nightmare to play against as Pac Man

How? Trampoline makes his bad approach even worse and inhale makes him suffer heavy lag (that we can punish) if he swallows our fruit

He hardly beats us in CQC if we space ourselves, and we have the much better keep away game. But don't underestimate his combos once he actually gets in. Kirby deals crazy damage.

Why do you think we lose to Kirby? He's another one of the characters that are too slow to punish a whiffed trampoline, making it a near 100% get out of jail free card (final cutter might hit us for 5% or something, oh well). When we force him off of the ground, our Bair, Uair, tilts, and smashes are great for contesting his jump-ins. How does he deal with us playing super defensive in general?

I've never really had trouble with Kirby, and with the galaxian setups I'm seeing Dee do, it'll probably be even easier since I can't see Kirby stopping us from getting it in hand consistently.

I know I always quote you BSP, but your matchup analysis is just always more detailed than mine

 

[NimbusSpark]

How? Trampoline makes his bad approach even worse and inhale makes him suffer heavy lag (that we can punish) if he swallows our fruit

He hardly beats us in CQC if we space ourselves, and we have the much better keep away game.

Agreed with us still having the match-up favour. Even if Kirby manages to inhale us and takes our Copy Ability, I'd still say the match-up swings into our favour.
- Kirby's poor mobility makes it harder for him to actually pick up his fruit for Z-Drop purposes compared to Pac-Man. I've said this one, and I'll say it again.
- Even if Kirby now has a reliable projectile, a player whom isn't too skilled against Pac would probably use his fruit within a more predictable manner.
- If there is something you should avoid at all times, it's Kirby's Down Air. Not only is it the move Kirby uses to start most of his combos, but it's also the reason why he gimps so well.
- As Pacman9 here said, exploit his terrible approach options. And if he does get up close - we pretty much outrange him. Kirby is a character that relies on getting combos going in order to successfully get damage in. Deprive that, and you pretty much got the upper hand.

 

[Nu~]

Beat out his down air with utilt. We have partial invincibility and a disjoint on it so it beats his Dair cleanly.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

@ MikeKirby or @Triple R you got any knowledge on Pacman?
@Reserved I know you hate MU threads, but its not really a ratings thing right now, just a little things to help us with the MU or any tips or so? That is if you don't mind

 

[MikeKirby]

I barely have had any experience vs Pacman, to be honest. Getting the Pacman's power makes the match up SO much more manageable. From any little experience I've had, it feels like it's an uphill battle for Kirby. We're always forced to approach because of Pacman's keep away game and escape options.

 

[Nu~]

@ MikeKirby Appreciate the input :]

-----
But can we please get back on topic. We're talking about wario lol.

My best advice is to play more aggressively. A long range keep away game is useless due to his bite so it's more optimal to fight in mid range. Keep the pressure on with caught fruits and z drops. Bair is also really good for beating out his short range aerials. Overwhelming him with offensive projectile pressure is better than trying to throw one at a time for defense. Fair hydrants are effective because it allows you to punish his bite on reaction, and you can catch any of his other escape options. DITCIT combos are also great because they send you propelling into wario with your fruit directly behind or in front of you, allowing you to punish his reaction. Trampoline is near useless because wario doesn't approach, and his bike can run right over it. Hydrant is the MVP however because he can't launch it with anything that won't get him punished.

Biggest thing to fear in the matchup is waft. Never stand near your hydrant when he has waft and beware of his bike + waft setups on the ledge.


I feel that the matchup could be even if we play more aggressively and put less focus into keep away.

 

[PEPESPAIN]

@ Nu~ , Can you put what you talked on page 1? We need to order this with the conclusion of every MU

 

[Nu~]

@ Nu~ , Can you put what you talked on page 1? We need to order this with the conclusion of every MU

Oops! Sry, I'm very disorganized.

The deed is done~

 

[Maziyah]

With wario is only a bad match up if you make it honestly, you wouldnt throw keys into kirby's mouth why would you do it to wario ? Plus he gets a warf, as someone who playe wario, he wants to be patient, poke at you and get his warf, he's looking for any habit you do , its in pac man favor but only if you dont allow yourself to get too predictable and not give him the space he wants.

 

[Nu~]

With wario is only a bad match up if you make it honestly, you wouldnt throw keys into kirby's mouth why would you do it to wario ? Plus he gets a warf, as someone who playe wario, he wants to be patient, poke at you and get his warf, he's looking for any habit you do , its in pac man favor but only if you dont allow yourself to get too predictable and not give him the space he wants.

It's only a threat because he can do it on reaction. Bite has very low startup.

 

[Maziyah]

Its one of those MUs where you can be campy, nor can you constantly choose defensive options

 

[PEPESPAIN]

Oops! Sry, I'm very disorganized.

The deed is done~

Mate, can you put every MU conclusion at the begginning of this thread? It is not possible for anyone to read 10 pages to find a particular MU, we need the conclusion of every match in 1 post, not in 10 pages and you are the only one that can do this because you created the thread....

 

[SuperOven]

May I request we talk about villager? Since he is a long range fighter as well, and can just steal all of our strong options, I don't see how one is supposed to fight him effectively.

 

[Nu~]

May I request we talk about villager? Since he is a long range fighter as well, and can just steal all of our strong options, I don't see how one is supposed to fight him effectively.

Thing is, villager isn't a long range fighter. His long range tools are too slow and predictable.

Lloid rocket loses to pellet shielding and Fair/Bair are midrange tools. Villager is more of an aggressive mid range zoner. But here's the thing, our tools beat his overall. Villager can't break a hydrant in one hit without committing to a very close range dtilt or fsmash, so we can hide behind it and charge up our fruit. We can do the same thing with trampoline since villager isn't exactly the best at approaching from directly overhead considering his poor mobility and weak landing options (dair is pretty good though). Our CQC is better because of our range and frame advantage in tilts, just stay out of his jab area.

In mid range, villager's fair and Bair aren't as scary to us because we're relatively short. This means that villager must undergo very specific spacing to hit us, and suffer landing lag. We can even crouch to make it harder for him. Our ground game beats his overall, but his aerial game beats ours in mid range. We beat his aerial game in CQC due to frame data and better hitboxes for close up fights. Just avoid being above him; turnips ignore dropped hydrants, but our aerial mobility beats his so we can effectively escape his juggles if we time our airdodges and hydrant drops right.

Also, Pocket doesn't affect our zoning tools in a very negative way. A pocketed hydrant doesn't cripple us because we can summon another one. The only real damage is if he drops it on top of us, but the spacing is so obvious that you should be able to avoid it. Also, a tip for when villager gets a hydrant: charge up to key, kick a hydrant to him as bait, and as soon as by drops it, nail him with the key for massive damage (pocketed hydrant + key). Pocketed fruit is hilarious as well because as long as a fruit is in villager's pocket, we can keep charging. When it's in his hand, he loses a ton of options.

We beat villager at his own game essentially. The biggest thing in this matchup going for villager is that he can destroy us offstage if you aren't careful. He can pocket our power pellet and harass us with his aerials if you don't play smart.

I can also ask Sinji since he plays Zee on the regular and also believes that we beat villager.

 

[Sinji]

Another thing is that we can control the pace of the match. placing the hydrant in the middle of the stage messes up villagers overall Spacing. The water shooting on both sides can mess up Villagers mobility. Also they can accidentally pocket the water, shoot it out and fly into you. At this moment they have to go for something when dropping down in your space. Thats when you go for Up b or Nair out of shield.

 

[Froggy]

No one seems to want to talk about this matchup and I don't blame them. Wario is a character you rarely see and when you do see them they're typically not very strong.

I propose we place change the topic to Marth now.

 

[dragontamer]

A moving Strawberry utterly owns Wario's bike.

Wario players typically punch through projectiles with bike, but Pac-Man's fruits behave strangely with the bike. They almost always hit the ground, bounce on the bike, and hit Wario straight in the face. Strawberry is quickest and is the most consistent fruit for this. Melon is also great.

Wario's only option is to jump off the bike, which turns the bike into a projectile. Otherwise, he just gets smacked in the face with fruit.

IIRC, Wario players expect bike to win vs projectiles, at least the ones inexperienced with the PacMan matchup. So you'll typically get a few bike-rides from Wario if you spam fruit.

 

[xzx]

I have Wario as a secondary, so maybe I can give som inputs in this matchup.

D dragontamer : As soon as a Bonus Fruit hits something, it bounces up. Wario's bike is no exception to this. If R.O.B.'s gyro hits the bike, it pops up too and hits Wario. So nothing strange/special. =P

I feel like Wario has a slight advantage in this Matchup as he has better mobility, is stronger than PAC-MAN, can eat his Bonus Fruits and launched hydrants, doesn't generally care about trampolines that much and his ability to control the pace of the match. Wario can go aggressive, he can camp, he can play the poke game, he can wait for wafts etc. Rage also helps Wario in this Matchup. Off-stage, Wario can eat PAC-MAN's Power Pellet and proceed to punish with waft. If Wario gets hold of the Bonus Fruit he can stall for days. +1 to Wario. (I understand if some of you think the matchup ratio is even, and maybe it is that, but honestly I feel like Wario can get around pretty much anything we want to do.)

I think that the Key is the key to victory (...) in this matchup as it brings Wario on his toes. PAC-MAN shouldn't be far away from Wario as it gives Wario some breathing time if he wants to land/try to eat the Bonus Fruit.

 

[Nu~]

@TheReflexWonder what are your thoughts on the pacman/wario matchup? And congrats on your placing! Figured I would ask the best wario player out there right now for his opinion.

I belive that it's even because while wario can reduce our long range game to fruit salad, we win the mid range game with our superior range and powerful projectile traps. Wario usually kills earlier, but we have a trump card in the form of DA-> bell-> side B which is a kill confirm at 40-80%. (correct me if I'm wrong @ToxoT )

Thanks to the patch, wario's OoS options aren't fast enough to punish us for repeatedly dash attacking his shield. We can freely assault his shield around this percent range. Meanwhile, trampoline OoS still breaks out of dtilt pokes and Nair landings.

I think that they both go even in nuetral, but pacman can convert to a more damaging advantage state than wario can. When waft comes in, camp wario out if you have the lead. Otherwise, try your best to safely poke wario's shield with dash attack and fair to fish for kill confirms.