Data Pac-Man is Back, Man! Frame Data + Damage Changes

[Almand]

This first post is a Master List of all Frame Data and Damage changes from Smash 4 to Smash Ultimate.

MAJOR UPDATE: I saw this linked on a Pac-Man Discord, so I'm here to say that a lot of stuff has changed. I'm fixing it so people aren't confused.

For reference:
-All values may or may not be accurate, so take them with a grain of salt.
-All values are formatted by "Smash 4 -> Smash Ultimate."
-Frame Data is always in green, Damage in blue, any other relevant changes in purple.
-Frame Data begins when the first "whoosh" or "strike" effect appears, in the event that I can't find an instance of the move hitting on its first possible frame. I cannot reliably find data for ending frames (for most moves) or late hit frame data, since there is no way of knowing this for sure.
-All attacks' damage values are meant to reflect base damage (No 1v1 or Fresh bonuses)
-All Smashes are uncharged, but damage likely increases by 1.4x when charged (we don't know if SSBU is different from Smash 4 in this regard).
-Any unknown values are represented by a red ?.
-Special Instances (usually a possible inconsistency) are marked with a yellow symbol, such as * or ^.
-If you see any evidence proving my research false, please link me to the video showing it, and I will update this Master List with credit to you in orange. (Make sure all reference videos are in 60 FPS. For damage, just make sure the percents are easily visible. Thanks in advance! )

Without further ado, here we go!!!!

Attributes:
Weight: 95
Run Speed: 1.52 -> 1.672. Can easily catch up to Melon now, implying he is quite a lot quicker.
Initial Dash: 1.6 -> 1.87.
Walk Speed: 1.045 -> 1.097.
Air Speed: 1.04 -> 1.092.
Fall Speed: 1.35

Normals:
Jab 1: Active 4-6 -> 4, FAF 20 -> 20. Damage 3% -> 2%. Pac now swings his arm in a circular motion (a hook, I think?) instead of jabbing straight forward. Also has a hitbox that sends backward, towards Pac (5:15 in this video.)
Jab 2: Active 4-6 -> 4, FAF 22 -> 22. Damage 2% -> 2%
Jab 3: Active 4-7 -> 4, FAF 34 -> 34. Damage 4% -> 4%. Total: 9% -> 8%.
Dash Attack (Loop Hits): Active 10-11, 20-21 -> 10, 19, 28, FAF 42 -> 46. Damage 2% -> 2%. Dash Attack now has 4 hits, rather than 3.
Dash Attack (Final Hit): Active 30 -> 37, FAF 42 -> 46. Damage 5% -> 4%. Total: 9% -> 10%.
F-Tilt: Active 5-7 -> 5, FAF 31 -> 31. Damage 8% -> 8%.
Up Tilt: Active 7-10 -> 7, FAF 34 -> 25. Damage 7% -> 6.5%. Now an upward jab instead of a headbutt, has much less knockback growth.
Down Tilt: Active 7-9 -> 7, FAF 29 -> 27. Damage 6% -> 6%. Now returns Pac-Man back to his original position after being used.

Smashes:
F-Smash: Active 18-20 -> 16, FAF 53 -> 53. Damage (Hand, Blinky) 15%/16% -> 15%/16%. May have more range (credit to xzx)
F-Smash (Late): Active 21-28 -> ?, FAF 53 -> 53. Damage 9% -> 9%. Blinky Disappears frame 29, possible end of Late Hit.
Up Smash (Hit 1): Active 13 -> 11, FAF 50 -> 50. Damage 3% -> 3%.
Up Smash (Hit 2): Active 16-18 -> 15, FAF 50 -> 50. Damage 14% -> 14%. Total: 17% -> 17%.
Up Smash (Hit 2, Late): Active 19-26 -> ?, FAF 50 -> 50. Damage 8% -> ?%. Inky Disappears frame 30, possible end of Late Hit.
Down Smash: Active 18-20 -> 15, FAF 55 -> 55. Damage 13% -> 13%.
Down Smash (Late): Active 21-28 -> ?, FAF 55 -> 55. Damage 7% -> 7%. Pinky and Clyde disappear frame 29, possible end of Late Hit.

Aerials:
Nair (Early): Active 3-5 -> 3, FAF 52 -> 52. Landing Lag 12 -> 7. Damage 10% -> 10%. Pac spins more "violently," probably larger hitbox. Seems to have lower knockback growth.
Nair (Mid): Active 6-9 -> ?, FAF 52 -> 52. Landing Lag 12 -> 7. Damage 6% -> 6%
Nair (Late): Active 10-19 -> ?, FAF 52 -> 52. Landing Lag 12 -> 7. Damage 3% -> 6%
Fair: Active 5-8 -> 5, FAF 26 -> 26. Landing Lag 16 -> 10. Damage 5.3% -> 7.65%. Noticably higher base knockback.
Bair: Active 9-11 -> 9, FAF 41 -> 41. Landing Lag 22 -> 13. Damage 11.8% -> 11.8%. Seems to have higher knockback (Caused Red Lightning on Ridley at 122% from Center Omega Battlefield, while Pac was at about 130%. For comparison, the same in Smash 4 does not happen to Cloud, an average weight, until over 130%, and Bowser, the heaviest character, until over 150%)
Bair (Late): Active 12-16 -> ?, FAF 41 -> 41. Landing Lag 22 -> 13. Damage 7% -> 7%
Up Air: Active 9-16 -> 9, FAF 37 -> 37. Landing Lag 16 -> 10. Damage 10% -> 10%.
Dair (Hits 1-3): Active 6-7, 14-15, 22-23 -> 6, 13, 20, FAF 60 -> 50. Landing Lag 20 -> 12. Damage 1.5% -> 2%.
Dair (Hit 4): Active 30-31 -> 27, FAF 60 -> 50. Landing Lag 20 ->12. Damage 6% -> 7%. Total: 10.5% -> 13%.

Specials:
Fruit: Charge begins Frame 8. Fruit does not stale (Mistake cleaned up by Aaron1997). Fruit-cancelling is also removed.
-Cherry: Spawns 8 -> 8. Damage 4% -> 4.3%
-Strawberry: Spawns 19 -> 20. Damage 6% -> 6%
-Orange: Spawns 30 -> 32. Damage 8% -> 7.5%
-Apple: Spawns 54 -> 51. Damage 9% -> 9.5%
-Melon: Spawns 78 -> 70. Damage 12% -> 12%
-Galaga: Spawns 102 -> 90. Damage 9% -> 9%.
-Bell: Spawns 126 -> 110. Damage 8% -> 7.5%
-Key: Spawns 150 -> 131. Damage 15% -> 16%. Overall, 19 frames faster charge!
Fruit Throw: Active 12 -> 12, FAF 45 -> 42.
Power Pellet (Startup): Active 23- -> ?, FAF 94 -> 73. Damage 10% -> ?%. Uncharged or Charged always deals 10%.
Power Pellet (Startup, Late): Active ? -> ?, FAF 94 -> 73. Damage 5% -> ?%. Uncharged or Charged always deals 5%.
Power Pellet (Startup, Latest): Active ? -> ?, FAF 94 -> 73. Damage 4% -> 4%. Uncharged or Charged always deals 4%.
Power Pellet (Uncharged): Active 23- -> ?, FAF 94 -> 73. Damage 6% -> 6%.
Power Pellet (Fully Charged): Active ? -> ?, FAF 94 -> 73. Damage 12% -> 12%. Does not include the initial dash, only the final hit.
Trampoline: Appears frame 1, Active frame 10.
Trampoline (Early): Active 4-7 -> 4. Damage 7% -> 5%. Trampoline can be attacked to "force" it into another color. A green trampoline acts as a red?
Trampoline (Mid): Active 8-12 -> ?. Damage 6% -> 6% Different colors seem to deal more damage (Early Blue deals 5%, but Early Red may deal 7-8%, for example).
Trampoline (Late): Active 13-17 -> ?. Damage 5% -> 7%
Hydrant (Falling, Ground): Active 12 -> 9, FAF 40 -> 35. Damage 9% -> 9%. First "active frame" is when Hydrant appears, hitbox may activate later.
Hydrant (Falling, Air): Active 9 -> 9, FAF 35 -> 35. Damage 9% -> 9%.
Hydrant (Damaged): Active 1- -> 1-. Damage 13% -> 13%

Grabs/Throws:
Standing Grab: Active 12-14, 22-24, 32-39 -> 12, FAF 76 -> 59. Beam turns duller, and Pac looks disappointed when missed (frame 35 & 36 respectively).
Dash Grab: Active 12-14, 22-24, 32-39 -> 14, FAF 76 -> 67.
Pivot Grab: Active 12-14, 22-24, 32-39 -> 15, FAF 76 -> 62.
Pummel: Damage 3.25% -> 1.2%. Actual hit is much faster, can be used in rapid succession.
F-Throw: Damage 6% -> 8%
Back Throw: Damage 11% -> 11%
Up Throw: Damage 5% -> 5%
Down Throw: Damage 10.5% -> 10.5%. Noticeably faster; entire animation finishes in about 25 frames.

 

[xzx]

Hey guuuuys, remember me who wanted all those Pac-Man buffs but y'all said those weren't needed? Screw y'all. (Note that I'm not being super serious here, but I am a little actually. (Writing this so that dragontamer won't give me another warning for no reason lmao.))

Anyway, besides from visuals and such, here is what I've been noticing about the changes of Pac-Man:

> Pac-Man runs faster. (Very noticable.)
> Grab is shorter, but also comes out faster (I think the hand is a grabbox now) and ends faster. Whole beam is a grabbox.
> Bonus Fruit now charges much much faster. Bell seems to give A LOT more stun now.
> Pac-Man sadly can't cancel his specials into each other anymore. (I saw Abadango trying to do this (twice) in the invitational but he nearly SD:d and wasn't able to pull it off.) However I'm not entirely sure about this.
> Nair is bigger.
> Bair has reduced landing lag. (Would assume that it now has around 15-18 frames of landing lag as opposed to Smash 4's 22 frames of landing lag.)
> Dair now sends opponents away from Pac-Man instead of upwards. Seems to able to autocancel from a short hop. Move executes faster.
> D-tilt can be used in a quicker succession, meaning it has less endlag.
> Up-tilt is now an overhead uppercut/punch.
> Hydrant's water can be blocked and even "destroyed".
> Up-B's third bounce seems to actually KO now. (However I'm not sure about this.)
> Side-B has slightly less endlag and not the horrific 92 frames of endlag that it had in Smash 4. Also does more damage fully charged.
> Trampoline seems to be able to be turned green by opponents' attacks, as shown in his trailer where Ike F-smashed it. The green trampoline acts as a red one.

That was all I could think of and took notice of. Of course, take everything with a grain of Pac-salt, as these are just my observations. (His smash attacks may have received less start-up and/or endlag but honestly it's so hard to tell since they look very similar to Smash 4 Pac-Man's smash attacks, so I disregarded them.)

Oh, and btw, Pac-Man sadly looks like to be only a mid tier character... At least that's an improvement from his bottom tier status he had in Smash 4... Let's see what he brings in the future though!

 

[Almand]

Hey guuuuys, remember me who wanted all those Pac-Man buffs but y'all said those weren't needed? Screw y'all. (Note that I'm not being super serious here, but I am a little actually. (Writing this so that dragontamer won't give me another warning for no reason lmao.))

Anyway, besides from visuals and such, here is what I've been noticing about the changes of Pac-Man:

> Pac-Man runs faster. (Very noticable.)
> Grab is shorter, but also comes out faster (I think the hand is a grabbox now) and ends faster. Whole beam is a grabbox.
> Bonus Fruit now charges much much faster. Bell seems to give A LOT more stun now.
> Pac-Man sadly can't cancel his specials into each other anymore. (I saw Abadango trying to do this (twice) in the invitational but he nearly SD:d and wasn't able to pull it off.) However I'm not entirely sure about this.
> Nair is bigger.
> Bair has reduced landing lag. (Would assume that it now has around 15-18 frames of landing lag as opposed to Smash 4's 22 frames of landing lag.)
> Dair now sends opponents away from Pac-Man instead of upwards. Seems to able to autocancel from a short hop. Move executes faster.
> D-tilt can be used in a quicker succession, meaning it has less endlag.
> Up-tilt is now an overhead uppercut/punch.
> Hydrant's water can be blocked and even "destroyed".
> Up-B's third bounce seems to actually KO now. (However I'm not sure about this.)
> Side-B has slightly less endlag and not the horrific 92 frames of endlag that it had in Smash 4. Also does more damage fully charged.
> Trampoline seems to be able to be turned green by opponents' attacks, as shown in his trailer where Ike F-smashed it. The green trampoline acts as a red one.

That was all I could think of and took notice of. Of course, take everything with a grain of Pac-salt, as these are just my observations. (His smash attacks may have received less start-up and/or endlag but honestly it's so hard to tell since they look very similar to Smash 4 Pac-Man's smash attacks, so I disregarded them.)

Oh, and btw, Pac-Man sadly looks like to be only a mid tier character... At least that's an improvement from his bottom tier status he had in Smash 4... Let's see what he brings in the future though!

I almost completely forgot about those changes to hydrant water and Trampoline! I had them in mind, I just didn't include them for whatever reason.

Glad to see the changes to Nair, Bair, and Dair! Down Tilt, I haven't seen used to actually hit an opponent. I'm hoping it'll be able to combo, but who knows. I've barely seen him used in any demo gameplay, since he's not one of the hip and cool returning veterans/popular characters, so it's kind of a tossup on how he'll be different. Up Tilt seems like a random change, but maybe it'll be a better combo tool, similar to Mario's. I just hope it doesn't retain the same whiff capability as the old one (Where you can't hit things in front of Pac).

Sucks to see Fruit Charge Cancelling gone, though. I mean, jump fruit charge cancel Down B is pretty much 30% of Pac-Man's gameplay, and fruit charge Up B is a fantastic recovery option. Hopefully it returns, or he'll lose a great option.

Overall, I'd say mid-tier. The changes he has are good buffs, but not exactly revolutionary or game-changing. It's more like "Back Air is actually a usable move now" instead of "We buffed Bair to make it good." It's less laggy, sure, but if they didn't buff its damage or kill power, it's still a pretty bad move. But, with 6 months to launch and tweak characters, we'll see!

 

[Almand]

Nintendo Treehouse's 8th SSBU video shows Pac-Man!

From there, I noticed Down Smash seems to come out a bit faster, Up Smash might too? Dash Attack also has at least 4 hits instead of 3 (and is MUCH faster with the hits), and his Jab's animation is a little different. He swings his arm in a circular motion rather than straight forward.
His 7650 win animation now has a little 8-bit fairy next to him, but that's the only change in victory animation I saw.
He does indeed run faster, but I couldn't get a good look at his air speed. Fall speed seems faster, too.

And using Youtube's frame-by-frame tool, the < and > keys, I was able to get a very loose assumption of Pac's frame data.
All FAF data assumes buffered inputs immediately afterwards, and while I did have the footage set to HD, 60 fps, there could be + or - a few frames on startup or endlag, as well as me attempting to remove hitlag from the equation (I skipped all frames from the frame after the hit to the frame just before when smoke appears).

Without further ado, here we go!

Jumpsquat: 4 Frames

F-Smash: Frame 16, FAF 50 (Blinky disappears frame 29, possible end of Late Hit).
Up-Smash (Hit 1): Frame 11
Up-smash (Hit 2): Frame 16, FAF 50. (Inky vanishes frame 30, possible end of Late Hit)
Down Smash: Frame 14, FAF 52. (Pinky and Clyde vanish frame 29, possible end of Late Hit)
Nair: Frame 3, FAF ?, Landing Lag 8. Can autocancel out of shorthop.
Bair: Frame 9, FAF ?, Landing Lag 14.
Fair: Frame 5, FAF 26, Landing Lag 12
Up Air: Frame 8? (Red "Strike" line appears on that frame, and ends frame 16), FAF ?
Dair: Couldn't get hit frame data since the guy landed with it both times he used it, but has only 12 frames of landing lag!
Jab: Frame 4, FAF ?
Jab 2: Frame 4, FAF ?
Jab 3: Frame 4, FAF ?
F-Tilt: Frame 5, FAF 30.
Up-Tilt: Frame 7? (Pac-Man was under a tree, so I couldn't see the "whoosh" effects appear. This is the only time Up Tilt is used). FAF 29
Dash Attack: FAF 49? But now has 4 or 5 hits. Still fairly lagless (Pac shields about 10 frames after last "bite"). Last hit also makes the sound Ike's sword produces?
Fruit: Begins charging frame 8.
Cherry: Frame 8
Strawberry: Frame 20
Orange: Frame 32
Apple: Frame 51
Melon: Frame 70
Galaga: Frame 90
Bell: Frame 110
Key: Frame 130 (Overall, charges 20 frames faster than Smash 4!)
Fruit Throw: Frame 12, FAF 40
Hydrant (Ground): Appears Frame 9, hits ground frame 16. FAF 33? (When Pac switches from the O: face to a smile, might begin walking then)
Hydrant (Air): Appears Frame 8, FAF ?
Power Pellet: Charging intervals were a little too wacky to get a good number.
Grab: Wasn't able to get a good look, but the first "notch" of the beam (assuming that's the grab box) appears frame 12. Still not a good grab, but it appears to have less endlag.

Aaaaand, that's when they stopped playing Pac-Man. They didn't use Down Tilt a single time!! Overall, though, these buffs are pretty good! Dair will probably get to combo on landing, Fair could be used to space (but I think it could still serve to get less landing lag), Smashes are faster but still laggy, fruit charges faster, etc.

I still think smashes should have lower FAF, Fruit Throw should have a lower FAF to followup on hit, and grab should come out a little faster (Frame 9-10, maybe). But, I digress. He could be a mid-tier now!

 

[xzx]

Great work Almand! I will compare your findings to the frame data of Smash 4 Pac-Man. Everything in red is Smash 4 frame data:

Jumpsquat: 4 Frames (5)

F-Smash: Frame 16, FAF 50 (Blinky disappears frame 29 (29), possible end of Late Hit). (18, 53)
Up-Smash (Hit 1): Frame 11 (13)
Up-smash (Hit 2): Frame 16, FAF 50. (Inky vanishes frame 30 (27), possible end of Late Hit) (16, 50)
Down Smash: Frame 14, FAF 52. (Pinky and Clyde vanish frame 29 (29), possible end of Late Hit) (18, 55)

Nair: Frame 9, FAF ?, Landing Lag 8. Can autocancel out of shorthop. (3, 12)
Bair: Frame 9, FAF ?, Landing Lag 14. (9, 22)
Fair: Frame 5, FAF 26, Landing Lag 12 (5, 26, 16)
Up Air: Frame 8? (Red "Strike" line appears on that frame, and ends frame 16), FAF ? (9, 16)
Dair: Couldn't get hit frame data since the guy landed with it both times he used it, but has only 12 frames of landing lag! (20)

Jab: Frame 4, FAF ? (4)
Jab 2: Frame 4, FAF ? (4)
Jab 3: Frame 4, FAF ? (4)
F-Tilt: Frame 5, FAF 30. (5, 31)
Up-Tilt: Frame 7? (Pac-Man was under a tree, so I couldn't see the "whoosh" effects appear. This is the only time Up Tilt is used). FAF 29 (7, 34)
Dash Attack: FAF 49? But now has 4 or 5 hits. Still fairly lagless (Pac shields about 10 frames after last "bite"). Last hit also makes the sound Ike's sword produces? (42)

Fruit: Begins charging frame 8. (8)
Cherry: Frame 8 (8)
Strawberry: Frame 20 (19)
Orange: Frame 32 (30)
Apple: Frame 51 (54)
Melon: Frame 70 (78)
Galaga: Frame 90 (102)
Bell: Frame 110 (126)
Key: Frame 130 (Overall, charges 20 frames faster than Smash 4!) (150)
Fruit Throw: Frame 12, FAF 40 (12, 45)

Hydrant (Ground): Appears Frame 9, hits ground frame 16. FAF 33? (When Pac switches from the O: face to a smile, might begin walking then) (12, ?, 33)
Hydrant (Air): Appears Frame 8, FAF ? (9)
Power Pellet: Charging intervals were a little too wacky to get a good number.
Grab: Wasn't able to get a good look, but the first "notch" of the beam (assuming that's the grab box) appears frame 12. Still not a good grab, but it appears to have less endlag. (12)

If we assume your findings are 100% correct, then we get the following balance for the frame data:

Jumpsquat: -1
F-smash: -2
F-smash (late): 0
F-smash (FAF): -3
Up-smash (hit 1): -2
Up-smash (hit 2): 0
Up-smash (late): +3 (good)
Up-smash (FAF): 0
D-smash: -4
D-smash (late): 0
D-smash (FAF): -3
Nair: +6 (startup), -4 (landing lag)
Bair: 0 (startup), -8 (landing lag)
Fair: 0 (startup), 0 (FAF), -10 (landing lag)
Up-air: -1 (startup), 0 (duration)
Dair: -8 (landing lag)


Unfortunately I have to go now, so I have to resume this later. But stay tuned!

Also, my buddy said he read somewhere that the Bell now stuns from a Z-drop, so that's a fancy fix!

 

[Almand]

Argh, I messed up on Nair! It's still frame 3 on startup, I mixed that startup with Bair. Oops! Fixed on my original post.
Fair would also have -4 landing lag, not -10 (as crazy as that would be), and the FAF of Grounded Hydrant is 40, not 33.

Z-Drop Bell stun sounds kinda broken, but fun! Z-Drop, to my knowledge, is frame 1, so they'd need to reduce the damage. Or else Pac is gonna have a (situational, granted) 1-frame kill confirm.

 

[Fenriraga]

Just to put this out there for you guys from a round I played Pac Man in: Z-dropping a fruit has it act as if you threw the fruit down. Galaxian does its arc, Melon moves slowly, etc. Hence the bell being able to stun people from a Z Drop.

Sadly, I think that means you can't pick it back up after a Z Drop. Or if you can, it's tricker due to the changes in timing and might not work if it hits the ground. I wasn't able to check, though.

 

[Almand]

Just to put this out there for you guys from a round I played Pac Man in: Z-dropping a fruit has it act as if you threw the fruit down. Galaxian does its arc, Melon moves slowly, etc. Hence the bell being able to stun people from a Z Drop.

Sadly, I think that means you can't pick it back up after a Z Drop. Or if you can, it's tricker due to the changes in timing and might not work if it hits the ground. I wasn't able to check, though.

That's a little disappointing, Z-Drop stuff is kinda what makes Pac-Man more fun and that much trickier. :/

They're still working on it, though, hopefully they add that (and Fruit Cancel) back!

 

[Almand]

Disregard this post, it originally had some Dair Frame Data, but it was from a 30 FPS video. What can ya do. ¯\_(-_-)_/¯

 

[Almand]

Another thing: Damage! I tried to get them all fresh, but whether I did that or not is up for debate.

All are 1v1 and presumed to be fresh (first time used in the match). Numbers in red are Smash 4 values. ? means I couldn't find an instance of this move in a 1v1. All Smashes are uncharged, but for reference, charged smashes usually deal 1.4x damage compared to uncharged.

Jab 1: 2.1% (3%)
Jab 2: 2.1% (2%)
Jab 3: 4.2% (8.4% total) (4%, 9% total)
Dash Attack (Hits 1-3): 2.1% each (2%, also used to be only 2 hits)
Dash Attack (Hit 4): 4% (10.3% total) (5%, 9% total)
F-Tilt: ?% (8%)
Up Tilt: 6.8% (7%)
Down Tilt: 6.3% (6%)
F-Smash: (Arm, Blinky) 15.8%/17% (15%/16%)
F-Smash (Late): 9.5% (9%)
Up Smash (Hit 1): 3.1% (3%)
Up Smash (Hit 2): 14.7% (17.8% total) (14%, 17% total)
Up Smash (Hit 2, Late): ?% (8%)
Down Smash: 14.7% (13%)
Down Smash (Late): 7.6% (7%)
Nair: 10.5% (10%)
Nair (Late): 8.9% (Might be a stale Early Nair) (6%)
Nair (Latest): 6.2% (3%)
Fair: 6.3% (5.3%)
Bair: 10.5% (11.8%)
Bair (Late): 7.4% (7%)
Up Air: 10.5% (10%)
Down Air (Hits 1-3): ?% (1.5%)
Down Air (Hit 4): ?% (?% total) (6%, 10.5% total)
Fruit:
Cherry: ?% (4%)
Strawberry: ?% (6%)
Orange: 6.5% (8%)
Apple: 8.5% (9%)
Melon: 11% (12%)
Galaga (Per hit): ?% (9%)
Bell: 6.6% (8%)
Key: 13% (15%)
Power Pellet (No Charge): ?% (10%) Both Power Pellets, by the way, do not include the startup hitbox, only the final dash hit.
Power Pellet (Full Charge): 12.6% (12%)
Trampoline (Early): ?% (8%)
Trampoline (Mid): 5.5% (7%)
Trampoline (Late): ?% (6%)
Hydrant (Falling): 9.5% (9%)
Hydrant (Damaged): 13.6% (13%)
F-Throw: 8.4% (6%)
Back Throw: ?% (11%)
Up Throw: ?% (5%)
Down Throw: 11% (10.5%)

Kinda disappointing to see Bair nerfed in terms of damage (landing lag is buffed tremendously, thankfully). Hopefully it has a bit more kill power, or I just did the math wrong/found a stale Bair. Or, who knows, maybe it's a combo tool like Mario's (Which also does 10.5%, coincidentally).

All the others seem to be mostly buffed. Every single fruit deals less damage, which is disappointing. And if Z-Drops and Fruit Cancel are gone, Fruits aren't nearly as good. :/
That being said, they very well might buff these options. For the most part, Pac-Man deals a little more damage on most attacks, which is pretty good. Let's just hope he has a few kill options now.

 

[tila!]

Keep seeing people say that cancelling fruit into another special is back because of this clip @ 0:42 https://youtu.be/A3BzmuQUARQ?t=42s but it looks like he cancels it with a jump then does a side b. Still interesting to note that fruit can be cancelled into jump without the use of phantom fruit now

 

[Almand]

Keep seeing people say that cancelling fruit into another special is back because of this clip @ 0:42 https://youtu.be/A3BzmuQUARQ?t=42s but it looks like he cancels it with a jump then does a side b. Still interesting to note that fruit can be cancelled into jump without the use of phantom fruit now

I didn't even notice that, honestly... I've used that exact clip to get the damage for the middle hitbox of trampoline, too! Still a shame that Pac-Man is gonna need a jump to cancel fruit, though, or he'll need to use it up in order to cancel. But, y'know, at least it's something.

 

[xzx]

I'm too lazy to go back to my earlier post and edit it, so I'll leave it as it is.

Thanks for your tremendous amount of work Almand, it is very appreciated!

Sad to hear about the Bonus Fruit nerfs though... Sure, canceling your charge into a jump will let you use aerials from a charge, but Pac-Man didn't need to waste a jump to cancel it in Smash 4... I feel like they are removing a lot that defined Pac-Man before...
---
Yesterday, when I looked through every character's introduction video, I noticed something very interesting about Lucina's video. In it, she is countering Pac-Man's f-smash, and boy do it has much more range now, finally! (I would say about 25% more range now.) Always something.

 

[Almand]

I'm too lazy to go back to my earlier post and edit it, so I'll leave it as it is.

Thanks for your tremendous amount of work Almand, it is very appreciated!

Sad to hear about the Bonus Fruit nerfs though... Sure, canceling your charge into a jump will let you use aerials from a charge, but Pac-Man didn't need to waste a jump to cancel it in Smash 4... I feel like they are removing a lot that defined Pac-Man before...
---
Yesterday, when I looked through every character's introduction video, I noticed something very interesting about Lucina's video. In it, she is countering Pac-Man's f-smash, and boy do it has much more range now, finally! (I would say about 25% more range now.) Always something.

Always happy to help! I may or may not have a frame data and Pac-Man obsession. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

That clip might've been the late hit, but it's still great for Pac! After F-Smash comes out, he kinda slides Blinky forward a short distance before retracting him, then he disappears. Normally, that had a teeny-tiny hitbox comparative to Blinky himself:

But now it looks like the hitboxes are bigger! Let's hope his hand now has a hitbox, so some thin characters can't just dodge it by being close to Pac. Same with his grab.

 

[xzx]

I'm pretty sure it was his sweetspot that Lucina countered. For sure the hitbox is bigger this time.

Anyway, I'm here to confirm some more things: blue and yellow trampoline always act the same way they did in Smash 4 - they always send opponents the same amount of height (same height as the blue one for Pac-Man). This means that only the red and green trampoline makes you enter freefall. (However, so little is known about the green trampoline. Will it send Pac-Man in freefall too? Can Pac-Man damage it? Does it have HP now? Can it be destroyed?)

Also, according to Esam, his bair kills at around 100% now. Knowing Esam a little [through his YouTube videos], he often "exaggerates", so Pac-Man's bair killing at 100% might be KOing at like around 110% or so. Either way, that is a drastic change to his Smash 4 bair, where it couldn't even KO at 140-150% onstage...

EDIT: Also, during the stages trailer, when they are showcasing Great Plateau Tower, Pac-Man is seen doing his dair. The hitboxes are actually muuch bigger now, with Pac-Man's body now being covered in hitboxes! (What I assume to be Sheik got hit by his body and not necessarily his legs!)

 

[Almand]

I'm pretty sure it was his sweetspot that Lucina countered. For sure the hitbox is bigger this time.

Anyway, I'm here to confirm some more things: blue and yellow trampoline always act the same way they did in Smash 4 - they always send opponents the same amount of height (same height as the blue one for Pac-Man). This means that only the red and green trampoline makes you enter freefall. (However, so little is known about the green trampoline. Will it send Pac-Man in freefall too? Can Pac-Man damage it? Does it have HP now? Can it be destroyed?)

Also, according to Esam, his bair kills at around 100% now. Knowing Esam a little [through his YouTube videos], he often "exaggerates", so Pac-Man's bair killing at 100% might be KOing at like around 110% or so. Either way, that is a drastic change to his Smash 4 bair, where it couldn't even KO at 140-150% onstage...

EDIT: Also, during the stages trailer, when they are showcasing Great Plateau Tower, Pac-Man is seen doing his dair. The hitboxes are actually muuch bigger now, with Pac-Man's body now being covered in hitboxes! (What I assume to be Sheik got hit by his body and not necessarily his legs!)

Yeah, I mentioned the Dair hitbox in my first post, which was obviously massively changed. Shiek was above and to the right of Pac, but still got hit by the last hit of Dair! I mean, Dair always had a huge hitbox for the final stomp, but that's just insane. It seems to cover his body, too, like you said. It still has a high FAF, but with the last hit coming out frame 28, and with only 12 frames of landing lag, it might make for a good shorthop buffer combo tool, especially if it autocancels.

Either way, though, Bair is stronger!!! It seems like Key has been nerfed in damage, at least, and Smashes might be a tad stronger, so it looks like his kill moves are gonna swap around just a little. More like Fruit for damage and Bair/Smashes to kill, which is fine.

As for the trampoline, I'm assuming green trampoline doesn't send Pac into freefall? If they wanted to convey that it just swaps to another color in the normal cycle, they would just have it go from blue to yellow or red. I may very well be wrong, but my best guess is that it sends him the same height as Yellow Trampoline, but sends anyone else into freefall.
I sure hope so, at least, because it'd be rather easy to edgeguard Pac if all you need to do is hit the Trampoline. It's like stealing the Yellow Trampoline in Smash 4, but worse.

 

[xzx]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3BzmuQUARQ

- Melon still has crappy knockback
- When charging Bonus Fruit in the air, Pac-Man hovers less and is overall less floaty when doing it.
- Hydrant launch mechanic altered to cover more ground but less distance. It seems "heavier" in that regard. It is also less bouncy.
- It seems like Pac-Man can't Bonus Fruit charge cancel for sure this time. (The player tried to do it but failed.)

Pac-Man still need more buffs. I still feel he lacks enough KO power, and overall deals relatively less damage than other characters... What a shame...

Hey Almand, maybe you have more to analyze in that video?

 

[Almand]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3BzmuQUARQ

- Melon still has crappy knockback
- When charging Bonus Fruit in the air, Pac-Man hovers less and is overall less floaty when doing it.
- Hydrant launch mechanic altered to cover more ground but less distance. It seems "heavier" in that regard. It is also less bouncy.
- It seems like Pac-Man can't Bonus Fruit charge cancel for sure this time. (The player tried to do it but failed.)

Pac-Man still need more buffs. I still feel he lacks enough KO power, and overall deals relatively less damage than other characters... What a shame...

Hey Almand, maybe you have more to analyze in that video?

Thing is, I've already used that video for some damage and frame data stuff. ^_^
Melon does 1% less damage, but they didn't seem to change the knockback values. Ryu was at nearly 150% in that video, but it didn't kill.

A few other things I noticed:
-Pac-Man generally falls faster. Like you said, he drops like a rock when he charges fruit, so it seems like Neutral B only slows him down for a short few frames.
-This doesn't change gameplay, but fruits tend to roll around Pac's hand while he moves, rather than staying straight on the whole time (very noticeable about 1:05 in that video)
-Up Tilt has drastically reduced knockback (at around 1:30, Pac Up-Tilts Ryu at around 170%, but it barely even sends halfway to the blast zone. Perhaps it could have a few combos or even confirms?)
-He is indeed much faster on the ground, being able to easily catch up to and grab Melon after throwing it.
-Like you said, Fruit Cancel is gone. :/ At 2:00 or so, the player tries to cancel fruit into Up B, and SD's because of it.

Overall, yeah, Ryu lived until over 180% on his first stock, and every single fruit deals less damage than in Smash 4. He's been buffed in other ways, some frame data and damage buffs here and there, which is nothing to sneeze at. It feels like they're taking a combo-oriented approach with Pac now, but haven't finished it yet. Like Sheik, where she deals minimal damage, but can combo you to 50-60%. Pac might deal much less damage, but moves string together.

At the same time, though, they haven't buffed his frame data much to follow suit. Bair and Up Air are still slow, Fair might combo now? Dair might, I haven't even seen anyone use Galaga in a combo yet, and many of his ground moves are pretty lacking.

We'll see how it goes, though.

 

[xzx]

Honestly I take back that Pac-Man looks like a Mid tier character now... He looks to be more of a low tier character. Of course that is still an improvement over his bottom tier status in Smash 4, but being low tier is still very bad. He isn't viable...

Usually how Sakurai balances characters from a past smash game is "nerf/remove what is good and buff/fix what is bad". (This is extremely apparent in Zelda's case.)

Pac-Man's Bonus Fruit got destroyed so hard it isn't even funny: the fruits got nerfed, charge canceling is gone and the fruits get used up when z-dropped... Of course, his grab got fixed and buffed, but that is something that should have been at the start in Smash 4... He also has pretty decent smash attacks now. Not stellar, but still fairly okay. This is something that also should have been in Smash 4. What's more. Oh, his aerials went from garbage to usable now.

So all in all: His grab and smash attacks got buffed, but his Bonus Fruit and their techniques, something that defined Pac-Man, was removed entirely.

At the game's launch, I will be EXTREMELY vocal about how bad Pac-Man is, if he ends up being bad at release. They still have time to further buff Pac-Man until then, which I hope they seriously do!

And to all of you idiot Pac-Mains that still believe Pac-Man is middle tier in Smash 4, don't you dare ruining Smash Ultimate Pac-Man this time, as you surely feel he will be high tier now!

 

[Almand]

Honestly I take back that Pac-Man looks like a Mid tier character now... He looks to be more of a low tier character. Of course that is still an improvement over his bottom tier status in Smash 4, but being low tier is still very bad. He isn't viable...

Usually how Sakurai balances characters from a past smash game is "nerf/remove what is good and buff/fix what is bad". (This is extremely apparent in Zelda's case.)

Pac-Man's Bonus Fruit got destroyed so hard it isn't even funny: the fruits got nerfed, charge canceling is gone and the fruits get used up when z-dropped... Of course, his grab got fixed and buffed, but that is something that should have been at the start in Smash 4... He also has pretty decent smash attacks now. Not stellar, but still fairly okay. This is something that also should have been in Smash 4. What's more. Oh, his aerials went from garbage to usable now.

So all in all: His grab and smash attacks got buffed, but his Bonus Fruit and their techniques, something that defined Pac-Man, was removed entirely.

At the game's launch, I will be EXTREMELY vocal about how bad Pac-Man is, if he ends up being bad at release. They still have time to further buff Pac-Man until then, which I hope they seriously do!

And to all of you idiot Pac-Mains that still believe Pac-Man is middle tier in Smash 4, don't you dare ruining Smash Ultimate Pac-Man this time, as you surely feel he will be high tier now!

As much as ESAM's tier lists bug me, Pac is pretty much undeniably bottom-tier. They added some stuff, but the stuff they took away kinda puts him right back into low-tier. :/

I'm hoping he's just unfinished, and they'll buff him further. I just don't get nerfing Key to 13%, was it somehow overpowered? All the fruits deal less damage, which I just don't understand. Melon should do MORE damage than before, not less! What's so OP about Cherry that it needs to do less damage!? Sure, you can do Z-Drop stuff, but Z-Drop has been removed! Removing charge cancel fruit takes away a massive part of his character, too. It feels like Fruit isn't really a good option now, when it was pretty much his only good option in Smash 4. Hydrant's new physics might be useful in some ways, I'm just hoping they don't mess up Jab Hydrant.

It feels like the philosophy was "let's make him sorta usable" instead of "let's make him viable," which should always be the goal. Majorly buffed landing lag is great, but that doesn't really matter when they aren't very useful. It's like giving Ganon's Up-Tilt zero ending lag. It's a good buff, sure, but that wasn't the issue in the first place.

 

[Tornado_Man]

I'm hoping you Pac-Men get the buffs you guys deserve. I have no idea what they were thinking when giving him these nerfs, he already had difficulties doing damage and killing, it just feels like a slap in the face at this point.

Retribution for Pac-Man.

 

[Almand]

I'm hoping you Pac-Men get the buffs you guys deserve. I have no idea what they were thinking when giving him these nerfs, he already had difficulties doing damage and killing, it just feels like a slap in the face at this point.

Retribution for Pac-Man.

Thanks, man. ^_^

It's weird, though. It feels like they buffed him, thought "Oh, we buffed him too much, didn't we?" then nerfed his best options to 'balance it out.' Even if they didn't nerf anything at all, he probably wouldn't even scrape by mid-tier. It just doesn't feel right that Damaged Hydrant does more damage than Key, or that Bair does less damage (same damage as Mario's Bair) while killing earlier.

I just have no idea what direction they're trying to go with him. Combo-oriented, technical, tricky? He's not fast by any means, so it just wouldn't make sense for him to be a "can't kill, but can combo you to hell and back" character like Sheik. But, I digress.

#Justice4PacMan

 

[xzx]

It feels like for every buff they give, they somehow want to "balance" it out with a nerf... I mean, just look at Zelda and Jigglypuff in both Brawl and Smash 4.

I don't get it. Pac-Man was one of the worst characters in Smash 4 (second to Jigglypuff and maybe third to default Mii Gunner imo). In online For Fun he was terrible, same with For Glory, and he didn't got good tournament placings either, especially not at majors...

The funny thing is, since I'm very passionable about game balance, I kinda knew how Sakurai would think when rebalancing Pac-Man. Fixed grab was a given, but knowing how much Sakurai hates character specific techniques, I knew Sakurai would remove charge canceling... (He can still change his mind though and the game is still in development.)

I never wanted to main Paper Mario more than now.

 

[Almand]

It feels like for every buff they give, they somehow want to "balance" it out with a nerf... I mean, just look at Zelda and Jigglypuff in both Brawl and Smash 4.

I don't get it. Pac-Man was one of the worst characters in Smash 4 (second to Jigglypuff and maybe third to default Mii Gunner imo). In online For Fun he was terrible, same with For Glory, and he didn't got good tournament placings either, especially not at majors...

The funny thing is, since I'm very passionable about game balance, I kinda knew how Sakurai would think when rebalancing Pac-Man. Fixed grab was a given, but knowing how much Sakurai hates character specific techniques, I knew Sakurai would remove charge canceling... (He can still change his mind though and the game is still in development.)

I never wanted to main Paper Mario more than now.

Exactly. At the risk of sounding dumb and ungrateful, it's stupid how Sakurai gives some characters such good options, but leaves other ones in the dust. While Pac-Man has one of the worst Bairs in the game (Frame 9, 22 frames of landing lag, can't kill below 150%), ZSS gets one of the best (Frame 6, 11 frames of landing lag, kills earlier than Captain Falcon's), along with being one of the fastest characters in the game and having so many almost-broken kill options. Ganondorf, Ike, Falco, Bayo, and Dedede have less landing lag on their Bairs, for crying out loud! It's like they just forgot to balance Pac-Man the same way because he wasn't popular enough to have many people clamoring for buffs.

He reimagined him in Smash Ultimate as if a 15% key along with being a little faster on the ground was just Brawl Meta Knight levels of broken, or a faster grab just destroyed the meta (despite him having zero followups on throws), so they had to tone him down.

At this point, though, I refuse not to main him. He's such a fun character, it's a shame he's so bad!

 

[Tornado_Man]

Don't lose hope, guys. Remember, release is still many months away, and I'm sure they're listening to any complaints that may have been made, even for Pac-Man.

 

[xzx]

But I highly doubt they will bring back charge cancelling... (Will happily be proven wrong though.) Sure, I can understand the z-drops (if that's a universal thing), but not charge cancelling... What's even worse is that his whole Special, Bonus Fruit, a move that surely needed buffs, are now nerfed... If Melon and Key are nerfed, and even Cherry for crying out loud, then it proves that every other fruit is nerfed as well. Maybe Bell gives more stun now, I don't know, but taking away something and then nerfing the move it was based off of is just not okay...

I don't want to main this character anymore. That's why I hope for Paper Mario. Because my main is chosen by how fun a character is. I have always wanted to main Paper Mario ever since Brawl, but if he's not in for Ultimate, then back to Pac-Man it is...

 

[Almand]

Don't lose hope, guys. Remember, release is still many months away, and I'm sure they're listening to any complaints that may have been made, even for Pac-Man.

Charge cancelling is specific to a few characters, but easily the most useful in Pac-Man, since he can charge cancel into Up B to gain height during recovery, same for Side B, and add pressure with charge cancel Down B. If that's removed, he loses a fantastic recovery and pressure option. And if he can only cancel Fruit with jump, that loses him a landing option.

It just doesn't make sense to remove that plus nerfing Fruit. I mean, Cherry does less damage. The weakest fruit that has zero followups under 150% (and even those high-percent combos are easily escapable) was just too strong? I could understand if it now locked, or spiked, or something, but it still sends at a 55 degree angle! And I'm assuming Strawberry follows suit.

Z-Drops, however, are universal for any character that holds an item. Pac-Man benefits from it, sure, but it's far from a broken move. That's what makes Pac-Man a double-edged sword; his opponent can use his fruits against him, Z-Drop them for damage/pressure, so on. My guess is that Z-Drop acting as Down Throw is a bug, and will be fixed. Charge cancelling, though, is 50/50. It's mostly specific to Pac-Man, so they very well might have just overlooked it, and might add it back.

All in all, it's just sad to see my favorite character get overall nerfed in the Ultimate Version of this game. They took his Fruit, a fantastic option in most cases, into something that'll maybe sorta sometimes work, now that Key, Melon, and Apple have drastically reduced knockback, and the 2 tricks to make even charging it really useful have been eradicated.

Buuuuuuut, we'll have to see, I've ranted way too much. ^_^ The game is nowhere near finished, balance-wise, and there'll be inevitable updates once the game's out. I don't see why they wouldn't buff Pac-Man, after how hard they nerfed his best option.

 

[Almand]

Guys, I found a new video that shows some ludicrous damage stuff...

This video is a 1v1 between Pac and Inkling, and a ton of the damage data I've documented is apparently wrong. Whereas I thought uncharged F-Smash dealt 17%, Pac comes swinging with 20.1%. Maybe new sweetspot, but I dunno. Bair? I thought it dealt 10.5%, a nerf. Nope. 14.8%, nearly as much as Smash 4's KEY (Though, at 2:00, you can see it doesn't do a whole lot more knockback, as sad as that is). Speaking of Key, it does 3.1% more than I thought it did, at 16.1%. Bell, Galaga, Melon, all those are apparently better than I originally thought, and that may very well be the case for other moves. I'm only halfway through analyzing it, and I'll probably rewatch it two or three more times to double and triple check what I've found. I just feel like I've gone crazy, half the moves this guy uses deal 1-5% more damage than I originally saw in other videos, like Treehouse #8 or the Hikaru vs. ??? tournament match.
I gotta say, lloD has some of the best Pac play I've seen in Ultimate so far, but that's neither here nor there. Point is, he's not spamming smash attacks or only using Side B. ^_^
The video also shows what happens when Pac bumps into a wall from Side B; it doesn't seem to send him at shine-spike levels of assured death anymore.

This could mean great things for Pac; the only huge nerf that needs addressing now is Fruit Cancel and Z-Dropping.

Also, the video is in 30 FPS, so we can't use any frame data stuff (And no, multiplying by 2 doesn't work, because we can't account for odd numbers). :/ Before anyone bursts out with "His F-tilt is frame 3, guys, and Nair is frame 1!!!!!"

Small Update: Also this one (Also 30 FPS, no frame data), which shows some very, very different stuff. Slightly charged F-Smash deals 17.3%, F-Tilt deals 8.4%, Dash Attack's first hits deal 1.8% or 1.9% while the final hit deals 4.7%... So unless those are just sourspots, very stale, or Inkling just takes more damage than other characters, I'm fully convinced I'm going insane, because both of these videos are 1v1 and those instances were all assumedly Fresh moves.

In any case, see you, I hope to have a big update over the coming days!

 

[xzx]

Sourspot f-smash (the hand) deals 17.3%. His dair transitions faster too! It seems like his bair has a sweetspot now. I think the "key spinning slowly if tossed at the same height as the floor" (hope you understand what I mean) is gone. (Check it out at 3:02 in the vs. Inkling video.) Or maybe it can pierce walls, floors and ceilings now??! If that is true then good luck catching the Key... ;^( Meehh... his backthrow still doesnt't kill... Inkling survived at 140% (from 127%)... Sigh lame. His d-tilt has a bigger hitboxes now, thank goodness.

All I could spot in the video.

 

[Almand]

Sourspot f-smash (the hand) deals 17.3%. His dair transitions faster too! It seems like his bair has a sweetspot now. I think the "key spinning slowly if tossed at the same height as the floor" (hope you understand what I mean) is gone. (Check it out at 3:02 in the vs. Inkling video.) Or maybe it can pierce walls, floors and ceilings now??! If that is true then good luck catching the Key... ;^( Meehh... his backthrow still doesnt't kill... Inkling survived at 140% (from 127%)... Sigh lame. His d-tilt has a bigger hitboxes now, thank goodness.

All I could spot in the video.

That sourspot F-Smash was slightly charged, so I'm dulling it down to an even 17% to estimate uncharged. Still even more damage than his sweetspot F-Smash in Smash 4, btw.

Yeah, I'll be updating the master list with the weird sweetspotting in mind (The 14.8% Bair seems to hit with his Feet, while the 10.5% is with his Legs/Body. 8.4% F-Tilt was with Bayo way up close, 10% F-tilt was with his foot, so on.) Makes me wonder if Up Air has a late hitbox now, or something... A lot of moves have new sweet and sourspots, it seems. Considering I'm not just dealing with wonky stale moves.
And I know what you mean with the Key; it sorta skids along the ground if you throw it just right. I sorta see that as more of an obscure trick like Shiek's throwable grenade: it can be useful, but it's tricky to land consistently. I'm not too hurt to see it gone, but it is a little frightening if that means all fruits can noclip like Bell can. It'd be fun, sure, and might make way for some setups and tricks, but I'd prefer if it wasn't the case.

Dair is a little faster on transition (ending hit is 3 frames earlier, from what I've found), and it does certainly suck that Back Throw still doesn't kill. :/ I'm honestly more in favor of his Down Throw killing, it's such a fun animation, but I've seen it barely send anywhere at even ludicrous percents (that doesn't mean it combos, though).

One great thing, though: According to Sinji, Up Throw combos into Up Air! Starting 30% or so, ending maybe 100%. If we're correct about Down Air comboing, too (or any aerial comboing, basically), maybe we could have big strings! Up Throw > Dair > Galaxian > Aerials, it'd be great. But I digress, it's too early to call any of that. ^_^

 

[xzx]

Maybe they have made the key clip through now (along with the bell), but I certainly hope that's not the case.

Calling it now: dair to key is a thing.

 

[Almand]

Major Update: I found out why damage is so inconsistent.

You know that 1v1 damage multiplier they showed off? That only holds true for 1v1 ITEMLESS fights. So, for example, Bair does 11.8%. Multiply that by 1.2 (for the 1v1 itemless battle), then by 1.05 (fresh move), We get 14.868%, which is true to what I've found. This means, by extension, that videos like the Nintendo Treehouse #8 battles are invalidated. They aren't true 1v1s, since they have items. So nothing has that 1.2x bonus. Turns out, I had it backwards. I thought 1v1 itemless was the "real" or "base" damage a move dealt, while 3+ characters and/or with items nerfed damage.

This is why we see all these patterns. Moves that previously did 10% now deal 12.6%, since 10 x 1.2 x 1.05 = 12.6.

So, I'll be updating my list to reflect base damage. This is just gonna mean dividing by 1.26 in most cases, but others are a little trickier. That means there'll be a few more red ?'s than before, but at the same time, it means I'll get to use matches with items and/or with 3+ characters!


As for the takeaway of all of this...
Yeeeeeeeaah, Pac's been nerfed into the ground in the damage department, practically everywhere that he isn't exactly the same. They took a projectile-based, item-play character and decided that projectiles are overrated. Smash Ultimate seems to prefer aggressive play, sure, but it seems a bit wrong to just strip away anything that can be used to camp. Fruit Cancel is gone, Z-Drops are majorly nerfed, and now his Fruit deals minimal damage? That's just a lot to take away all at once. With these nerfs, so many fruits are either useless (Melon especially) or majorly downgraded in utility (Orange and Apple barely kill, and Key is much less useful to clean up stocks or add pressure). Galaga and Bell are really the only ones that are halfway decent, and even then, Galaga is much worse at damage-racking due to its 1.5% nerf.
It'd be fine if they gave him some good options otherwise, perhaps a combo tilt or a moveset to complement his "quick, agressive damage, then back to neutral" playstyle, but no. He got a combo throw, and that's good, but I fear that that will just turn him into less of a slow-and-steady, damage-racking trickster. Why use Galaga and Hydrant Setups when I can just Up Throw Up Air for the same damage? Plus, I don't have to risk my opponent using Hydrant or Fruit against me!

Sure, he's faster, Fair is better, a few choice moves were buffed in damage or frame data, but it feels like they weren't made with playstyle-specific buffs in mind, as if the changes were chosen because "Well, we changed up everyone else's animations a little bit, we can't leave Pac-Man out". For example, Dash Attack now has 4 hits, but why? It's not a bad decision, it's just a nothing decision. It's like making Down Smash multihit, it just doesn't do anything meaningful. Why not make it a little more threatening to shield, why not make it combo a little better? For his Tilts: Up Tilt is now a decent Anti-Air, F-Tilt remains the same, but Down Tilt... Can now space a little bit better. Which is... What F-Tilt did, except F-Tilt is faster and deals more shield stun. Why not make Down Tilt more threatening to shield, or even lead into strings? Bair has less landing lag, granted, but so does every other aerial in the game. Plus, it's still rather unsafe. Why does such a weak move still have 3 more frames of landing lag than Smash 4 ZSS's Bair, and 5 more frames than SSBU Fox's (Which, by the way, kills a good 30% before Pac's)?!
The best change, in my eyes, is Dair. They made it lead into mixups, with its lower landing lag and FAF. Fair, too, is actually usable below 100%, which is always nice.

I can only hope they'll fix him. Even if he's been buffed in some ways, I'm not quite sure it's enough to push him past bottom-tier. Especially since practically everyone has been buffed in Ultimate. :/

 

[xzx]

But I must ask a question: does it really matter or not if his damage got "nerfed" in an item battle/+3 battle, since he will always do more damage in a 1vs1 itemless (competitive) setting? Or am I understanding things wrong? (He does more damage regardless in competitive matches, right?)

If Pac-Man is better or worse can only the time tell. Remember that his grab, while still not very good, is not garbage anymore. His aerials are okay now and his smash attacks seems good now. His tilts also are okay now. At least he must have made the jump to low tier now. Not that it's amazing or anything, but it's not bottom tier. (Though every character should be high tier material.)

Low damage output was one of his many weaknesses, so if it's true that his damage output is nerfed then RIP.

 

[Almand]

But I must ask a question: does it really matter or not if his damage got "nerfed" in an item battle/+3 battle, since he will always do more damage in a 1vs1 itemless (competitive) setting? Or am I understanding things wrong? (He does more damage regardless in competitive matches, right?)

If Pac-Man is better or worse can only the time tell. Remember that his grab, while still not very good, is not garbage anymore. His aerials are okay now and his smash attacks seems good now. His tilts also are okay now. At least he must have made the jump to low tier now. Not that it's amazing or anything, but it's not bottom tier. (Though every character should be high tier material.)

Low damage output was one of his many weaknesses, so if it's true that his damage output is nerfed then RIP.

The buffed damage only applies to 1v1 itemless battles, which is the tournament standard. So in competitive Doubles, for example, he'd deal that nerfed damage, but in competitive singles, he'd deal 1.2x more damage.

He's certainly been buffed, and has some good tools, I'm just a bit salty they took away one of his best.

As for Smashes, they're better, but still a bit laggy (F-Smash does indeed deal more damage on the sweetspot, though!)

Aerials have the obvious landing lag buff, and Bair is indeed stronger (but not by much).

Tilts are fine, not every move on a character has to be great, obviously, so if he has to take a hit somewhere, that's a decent place.

He's better, I just think they could (and should) do a lot more.

 

[xzx]

His key did 15% in Smash 4. How much does it do in 1v1 itemless in Ultimate and in teams/+3 players?

Yeah I'm also mad that his fruits are nerfed.

His smashes are not great or anything, but they still seem good/okay.

His bair has a sweetspot and it seems decent in KO power.

Yeah, I agree they should do more with him. Being low tier isn't okay, heck not even middle tier, but we have to wait and see. As I said before, every character should be high tier material, Pac-Man included.

 

[Almand]

His key did 15% in Smash 4. How much does it do in 1v1 itemless in Ultimate and in teams/+3 players?

Yeah I'm also mad that his fruits are nerfed.

His smashes are not great or anything, but they still seem good/okay.

His bair has a sweetspot and it seems decent in KO power.

Yeah, I agree they should do more with him. Being low tier isn't okay, heck not even middle tier, but we have to wait and see. As I said before, every character should be high tier material, Pac-Man included.

I looked into it, Bair actually doesn't have a sweetspot. That 14.8% number I found was just an itemless 1v1, the move still deals 11.8% in all instances. It has been buffed, though, slightly, in knockback.

Smashes are laggy, but faster and (I think?) a tad stronger.

As for the Key, it does 13% in any match with items and/or 3+ players. In an itemless 1v1, though, it deals 16.38%. But this applies to all moves; it's more of a damage-racking buff than a character-specific one. Think of that as a nerf from 20.6388% (15% x the damage modifiers), rather than a buff from 15%. In most cases, it's the base damage a move deals that really matters; though I do admit that the nerf is eased a little when you consider how insane a nearly 21%-dealing, very quick projectile like Key would be in a competitive match.

 

[xzx]

Ah okay, thanks for clarifying. I really hope his fruits get buffed then.

 

[CostLow]

I'll go back and read all the other comments soon but I just have to say. I'm still so salty that the hydrant still doesn't get launched with a sweetspot bair. That option alone would make him worth picking up again for me. However, if the other slight changes make him more competitive I may pick him back up again. We'll see. I just got tired of doing so much work for so little to show for it, ya know?

 

[Almand]

I'll go back and read all the other comments soon but I just have to say. I'm still so salty that the hydrant still doesn't get launched with a sweetspot bair. That option alone would make him worth picking up again for me. However, if the other slight changes make him more competitive I may pick him back up again. We'll see. I just got tired of doing so much work for so little to show for it, ya know?

Yeah, exactly. And Hydrant still has 13% health, but I'm not sure if that changes for 1v1 itemless battles with that damage boost. Bair deals 14.868% in that case, so it might auto-launch Hydrant? But for all we know, Hydrant might have 15% health in those battles, which would suck. I'm in the boat that Hydrant should have 12% health like it used to, but I dunno. There should be something less laggy than a Smash Attack or High-Committal as a Key that he can use to immediately launch hydrant, in my opinion, but I guess Sakurai thinks otherwise, I dunno.

I'm most salty about Fruit, honestly. It's not cancellable without using up a jump, he can't Z-Drop them, and they're all weaker. Sure, that eases the double-edged sword of his specials, but really? If anything, make them even stronger! Then it'll be all the more devastating when your opponent gets their hands on a Melon or Key. You can set up devastating traps, but if all your opponent has to do is shield and jump Fair to grab them (This works with everything except Key), it'll achieve the same (possible) solution Sakurai was going for: saying "Use Fruit a little less, guys."

Honestly, all things considered, he seems better, but not great. The difference between a 1/5 as opposed to a 1.5/5. He'll probably still do that same cool stuff as in Smash 4, but I'd hate for him to stay that one bad character that can occasionally do stuff that makes people comment "Pac-Man Mains aren't human".

 

[Aaron1997]

https://smashboards.com/threads/the...s-balance-changes-thread.455366/post-22215839

Fruits DO NOT STALE Almand