Data Pac-Man is Back, Man! Frame Data + Damage Changes

[Almand]

https://smashboards.com/threads/the...s-balance-changes-thread.455366/post-22215839

Fruits DO NOT STALE Almand

Oops! Fixed in Master List with credit.

 

[Pacack]

Why on earth did they remove z-dropping???

God, I sure hope he ends up better for the actual game's release. He looks just awful right now.

 

[Aaron1997]

Why on earth did they remove z-dropping???

God, I sure hope he ends up better for the actual game's release. He looks just awful right now.

Because they don't want Pac camping anymore. TBH its not really that bad. Most of the top Pac's don't hang on to fruits very long anyway. He can still do his set-up's, he just can't do it again. I think Z-drop Bell stunning might have also had a part of it to. That would of been stupid with unlimited Z-drops.

Almost all of his normals got buffed and has a much better grab. I think he'll be just fine. Just need to adapt to the new Pac.

 

[Almand]

Because they don't want Pac camping anymore. TBH its not really that bad. Most of the top Pac's don't hang on to fruits very long anyway. He can still do his set-up's, he just can't do it again. I think Z-drop Bell stunning might have also had a part of it to. That would of been stupid with unlimited Z-drops.

Almost all of his normals got buffed and has a much better grab. I think he'll be just fine. Just need to adapt to the new Pac.

The Z-Drop setups don't work at all anymore, since a Z-Drop now acts as a Downward Throw. That leads me to believe it wasn't a conscious decision to make Pac-Man's Z-Drop Bell stun, but just a side effect of replacing Z-Drops with throwing an item down. The real travesty, in my eyes, is removing Fruit Cancel and the floatiness on Fruit Charge. Now, he falls like a rock and has to waste a jump to cancel the charge.

All in all, I think he's better, but not necessarily good. From what I can gather, he's been made into an aggressive zoner instead of a campy one, which is honestly how I play Pac in Smash 4. They buffed him, sure, but they seemed to only address bits and pieces of what made him so bad in the previous title. He still has few kill options (Fruit is nerfed, Smashes seem to be the same in strength, and Bair is a huge 'if' on whether it kills or not) and poor range, but he's at least a little faster and can counter shield with a grab without getting killed easily for it.

 

[Aaron1997]

The Z-Drop setups don't work at all anymore, since a Z-Drop now acts as a Downward Throw. That leads me to believe it wasn't a conscious decision to make Pac-Man's Z-Drop Bell stun, but just a side effect of replacing Z-Drops with throwing an item down. The real travesty, in my eyes, is removing Fruit Cancel and the floatiness on Fruit Charge. Now, he falls like a rock and has to waste a jump to cancel the charge.

All in all, I think he's better, but not necessarily good. From what I can gather, he's been made into an aggressive zoner instead of a campy one, which is honestly how I play Pac in Smash 4. They buffed him, sure, but they seemed to only address bits and pieces of what made him so bad in the previous title. He still has few kill options (Fruit is nerfed, Smashes seem to be the same in strength, and Bair is a huge 'if' on whether it kills or not) and poor range, but he's at least a little faster and can counter shield with a grab without getting killed easily for it.

First of all, B-air is much stronger. Second, killing is going to be the least of my worries. With 1 Air-dodge, its going to be easy to force them to blow it and get free Bell/Key kills. His ledge traps are also going to be deadly. On the ledge? Hydrant -> Up-tilt then wait for ledge option. If they try to air-dodge the Hydrant? dead. Anything else? dead. Also as long Z-drop fruits can damage Hydrant, the set-ups still work. Also IDK why you think Fruits are nerfed. In FFAs and teams, yes they are nerfed. But the 1V1 multiplier make's up for the loss in damage. The only "Nerf" to fruits are the Z-drop change

 

[Almand]

First of all, B-air is much stronger. Second, killing is going to be the least of my worries. With 1 Air-dodge, its going to be easy to force them to blow it and get free Bell/Key kills. His ledge traps are also going to be deadly. On the ledge? Hydrant -> Up-tilt then wait for ledge option. If they try to air-dodge the Hydrant? dead. Anything else? dead. Also as long Z-drop fruits can damage Hydrant, the set-ups still work. Also IDK why you think Fruits are nerfed. In FFAs and teams, yes they are nerfed. But the 1V1 multiplier make's up for the loss in damage. The only "Nerf" to fruits are the Z-drop change

All good points. Fruits, quite honestly, were probably nerfed because of the extra damage. Key, for example, deals 16.38% in an itemless 1v1, but it would have dealt 18.9% (More than Ryu's True Shoryuken and almost as much as Bowser's Bair) if it wasn't nerfed.

All in all, we'll have to see. I'm probably way blowing this out of proportion, tbh.

 

[Nu~]

I’m just bitter that they removed our infinite z drops while not touching bonus Fruit’s FAF or ****ty ass priority. It’s still a laggy projectile that can be either taken away from us or just attacked through and losing z drops was just an insult to injury .

 

[Almand]

I’m just bitter that they removed our infinite z drops while not touching bonus Fruit’s FAF or ****ty *** priority. It’s still a laggy projectile that can be either taken away from us or just attacked through and losing z drops was just an insult to injury .

Exactly. They may or may not have shaved 1 or 2 frames off of Fruit Throw, but I honestly have no idea; I've been getting conflicting data. Most of Pac's nerfs, in fact, are to Bonus Fruit. Damage was probably just for the 1v1 itemless bonus, and will hold true for many characters to maintain balance, but Z-Drop and Fruit Cancel nerfs seem like a slap in the face towards Bonus Fruit's utility. That's why I think Pac is gonna be more of an aggressive zoner this time around. Rather than camping with Fruit, he'll have to go in to get those punishes, and rely more on Fruit for quick damage, traps, or faraway punishes.

 

[Almand]

Guys... I found something really weird in Ness' fighter trailer.

Right here, while Ness uses PK Starstorm, you can see Pac throw a Cherry. That throwing animation is completely different from the usual (he kinda twists his whole body to throw it, instead of just leaning forward while tossing with one arm. It's hard to explain, but it's different). Along with that, if we assume he throws the fruit at frame 12, it has an FAF of 30. 18 frames after the fruit's hitbox becomes active. Which, y'know, JEEZ, why wasn't THAT in the E3 Demo?

He then uses an F-Smash, which comes out frame 16, just like at E3.

This begs the question, though, what was that Fruit Throw? I've seen a Pac-Man use Cherry in other instances in the Demo, and it wasn't that throw. My best guess is that if you just double-tap Neutral B without having a fruit stored, that happens? It's probably a quicker option if you just want Cherry, but why?

 

[Nu~]

Guys... I found something really weird in Ness' fighter trailer.

Right here, while Ness uses PK Starstorm, you can see Pac throw a Cherry. That throwing animation is completely different from the usual (he kinda twists his whole body to throw it, instead of just leaning forward while tossing with one arm. It's hard to explain, but it's different). Along with that, if we assume he throws the fruit at frame 12, it has an FAF of 30. 18 frames after the fruit's hitbox becomes active. Which, y'know, JEEZ, why wasn't THAT in the E3 Demo?

He then uses an F-Smash, which comes out frame 16, just like at E3.

This begs the question, though, what was that Fruit Throw? I've seen a Pac-Man use Cherry in other instances in the Demo, and it wasn't that throw. My best guess is that if you just double-tap Neutral B without having a fruit stored, that happens? It's probably a quicker option if you just want Cherry, but why?

Pretty sure that was a forward item toss lol. He probably got cherry in hand first. Looks very similar to his item toss animation in smash 4

 

[Almand]

Pretty sure that was a forward item toss lol. He probably got cherry in hand first. Looks very similar to his item toss animation in smash 4

Yeeeeah, that makes a lot more sense. -_-
Nevermind, then!

 

[WaxPython]

Well he's not as obnoxious anymore due to footstools being teachable and the changes to his hydrant.

Whether or not he's still viable without those is another story I don't personally think he will be.
Despite maybe being buffed overalled

 

[Almand]

Well he's not as obnoxious anymore due to footstools being teachable and the changes to his hydrant.

Whether or not he's still viable without those is another story I don't personally think he will be.
Despite maybe being buffed overalled

Pac-Man didn't really have any footstool lock combos... There's Dash Attack > Footstool > Falling Nair, but it's very difficult to pull off and only works at specific low percentages on one or two characters.

As for the hydrant, it wasn't changed too much. I believe someone on here reported it seemed a bit floatier, or traveled more horizontal distance, but it's still relatively the same.

I don't think he'll be viable either, but only time will tell.

 

[grizby2]

I reaaaaly hope he keeps that grab speed in the final release. much needed buff.

 

[Almand]

I reaaaaly hope he keeps that grab speed in the final release. much needed buff.

I have no idea why they wouldn't. They shaved anywhere from 16 to 20 frames of endlag off (I'm being conservative and going with an even FAF of 60, down from 76), but that's not all they did to his grab. It's still slow (frame 12 from all the data I've seen), but there are no dead zones! See Pac's old grab:

Those purple circles are the grab boxes. That first one on his hand is active frames 12-14, second one is active 22-24, and the last one is active 32-39. And with an FAF of 76... That's not very good. Fun fact, Luigi's Dash Attack also has an FAF of 76, yet that move comes out frame 4. Pac-Man's Grab is worse than Luigi's Dash Attack, frame-data-wise.

Either way; now, it seems that the ENTIRE Galaga Beam is now a grab box that grows with the grab itself. And judging solely by the beam turning dull on frame 35, the thing's active for 23 FRAMES. To balance that a little, the grab range is now shorter, but a 23-frame active window with only 25 recovery frames afterwards? Jeez, give me THAT over the teeny-tiny grab boxes and horrific endlag Smash 4 dished out.

Plus, Up Throw combos now. Into aerials at low percent, and it's a deadly frame trap at higher percents.

Honestly, they did so much for Pac's Grab. Most characters can't combo out of throws now (except at very low percents, and even then, only on a few characters), so it strikes me as a meme of sorts that PAC-MAN of all characters, the one who became meta-famous for having a horrible grab, now has an actually pretty decent one.


Oh, another thing, just because talking about his grab got me disproportionately excited: the last hit of Dair has an absolutely ridiculous hitbox. It was already massive, as you can see here:

But now, check this out:

See Lucina above and to the right of Pac?

She still gets hit! So the hitbox probably covers Pac-Man's ENTIRE body! And what's more, the loop hits deal 2% (up from 1.5%) and the last hit deals 7% (up from 6%), making Dair deal a total of 13%. That's as much as his Down Smash, uncharged, and as much as Captain Falcon's Back Air. Dair's last stomp also comes out quicker by a few frames, and can lightly combo due to its lower FAF and landing lag. So... It's weird. They buffed his worst options and nerfed a few good ones, which sorta makes him go back to square one in some aspects, but... I mean, nobody uses Dair or Grab because they're so bad, so maybe that's the key to his actual high-tier status? I dunno, but I hope they do some more for him.

End rant. No idea how this became a novel, but there it is; I hope I was able to shed some light on the major buffs I found really cool.

 

[meleebrawler]

People being unwilling to test moves that used to be awful in Smash 4 is a sad trend I notice a lot (re: Ganondorf's Dark Dive), along with knee-jerk tier drops or otherwise negative perceptions when the good Smash 4 moves get nerfed or changed. Nobody has the time nor energy to try and discover new strats in a demo.

 

[Almand]

People being unwilling to test moves that used to be awful in Smash 4 is a sad trend I notice a lot (re: Ganondorf's Dark Dive), along with knee-jerk tier drops or otherwise negative perceptions when the good Smash 4 moves get nerfed or changed. Nobody has the time nor energy to try and discover new strats in a demo.

Exactly. Like I said in that post, many characters have little to no throw combos anymore, so people are looking at characters like Sheik or Mario and saying they're now mid-tier because Forward and Down Throw respectively don't lead into 50-60% combos anymore. I think not using those bad Smash 4 moves, though, is just muscle memory. Even if something like Ganon's Up Tilt was massively buffed and made an actual good move, most people probably wouldn't even notice unless they accidentally used Up Tilt once. It's just such common knowledge that his Up Tilt is horrible that people aren't gonna bother even trying to use it.

 

[xDrippyx]

Paccy will definitely have to be played differently. Sadly, It's looking to me like he's going to struggle in the new meta, but time will tell.
Something I don't think I've seen anyone mention is that his two best hydrant launch angles, bair -> jab and uair -> uptilt are now seemingly gone. The jab hitbox looks like it sends the hydrant backwards ( As seen in Sinji vs. Shuton Exhibition match) and his changed uptilt probably no longer has a behind hitbox.

 

[Almand]

Paccy will definitely have to be played differently. Sadly, It's looking to me like he's going to struggle in the new meta, but time will tell.
Something I don't think I've seen anyone mention is that his two best hydrant launch angles, bair -> jab and uair -> uptilt are now seemingly gone. The jab hitbox looks like it sends the hydrant backwards ( As seen in Sinji vs. Shuton Exhibition match) and his changed uptilt probably no longer has a behind hitbox.

That's a good point. Though the jab thing could just be something like DK's, where the tip sends towards Pac, the rest sends at the normal 80 degree angle. Fun fact, Pac's jab actually has a hitbox that sends at a Sakurai Angle (meaning it can lock, a la Mario's jab), but it's on his arm instead of his hand. So you have to be very, very close to a small character to actually lock, and the hydrant is just too big to launch at that angle unless you jab from way, way up close. So it might be something like that? You can now jab out of a run, so perhaps Bair > Run Up Jab is the new meta for hydrant. Up Tilt, though, is gone. From the looks of it, the new Up Tilt only hits upward, unless there's some scooping hitbox we don't know about (which I find unlikely in and of itself).

 

[xzx]

Speaking of Cherry, it now pierces. I saw a Pikachu get hit with a Cherry and took two hits by it, one hit for each bounce. Interesting.

 

[xDrippyx]

Definitely interesting. Do you remember which video you saw that in, if any?

 

[xzx]

Definitely interesting. Do you remember which video you saw that in, if any?

The video was in a video itself, so I don't really remember. But it must have been in a pretty recent game video. (It was a team match iirc.) I'm curios if the Strawberry has changed properties, or if it is a single hit.

 

[xzx]

Bump. Okay, just leaving this here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...9Fk2zmmSvcEH8rBy6GVAHEtQk/edit#gid=1971594301

This is confirmed Pac-Man frame data and damage changes. Looking nice so far, but am expecting more buffs.

 

[Almand]

Bump. Okay, just leaving this here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...9Fk2zmmSvcEH8rBy6GVAHEtQk/edit#gid=1971594301

This is confirmed Pac-Man frame data and damage changes. Looking nice so far, but am expecting more buffs.

Great find! The only changes I can really think of to add by now are FAF and landing lag stuff, his startup is fine. Bair could serve to be a little faster, but y'know. I think all his smashes should have an FAF of around 45, Bair should either come out a bit earlier or have 9-12 frames of landing lag (If Ganon can have an 18.5%-dealing 11-frame landing lag Bair that comes out only 1 frame later than Pac, I don't see why the yellow ball can't get a bump up), Fair could even serve to have less landing lag (It's more of a poking and combo tool now, like Sheik's, and that has 7 frames of landing lag), Bonus Fruit Throw should have less ending lag, etc. And Fruit in general could be buffed in damage/knockback, bring back Fruit Stalling, Fruit Cancelling, Z-Dropping... But those aren't super important.

 

[xzx]

NEW LANDING LAG FRAME DATA:

Nair: 7 frames
Fair: 10 frames
Bair: 13 frames
Uair: 10 frames
Dair: 12 frames

This means that his Bair gained 1 less frame of landing lag while his Dair gained 2.

His Hydrant has the same amount of HP (according to someone that already has the game) as before (even in 1vs1), aka 13% and his Up-tilt is still intangible.

 

[Almand]

NEW LANDING LAG FRAME DATA:

Nair: 7 frames
Fair: 10 frames
Bair: 13 frames
Uair: 10 frames
Dair: 12 frames

This means that his Bair gained 1 less frame of landing lag while his Dair gained 2.

His Hydrant has the same amount of HP (according to someone that already has the game) as before (even in 1vs1), aka 13% and his Up-tilt is still intangible.

Well, sucks to see the change to Dair, but good to see the change to Bair!

If Dair Autocancels on Shorthop, that's good and the landing lag change won't hurt too much. Nair is a better landing tool, anyway.

I do still think Bair should have less landing lag, though. Dair, Nair, and Uair are fine, but Bair (I think) should have 11 frames, Fair should have 8 (Since it's sort of a poking tool like Shiek's). But that's just my two cents. Glad to see the changes, sad to see the nerfs.

Up Tilt's intangibility, if it's on his arm/hand, could be fantastic for anti-airing. But if it's still only on his head... Why?

And 1v1 Hydrant -> Bair is viable, sound the alarms

 

[xzx]

Well, sucks to see the change to Dair, but good to see the change to Bair!

If Dair Autocancels on Shorthop, that's good and the landing lag change won't hurt too much. Nair is a better landing tool, anyway.

I do still think Bair should have less landing lag, though. Dair, Nair, and Uair are fine, but Bair (I think) should have 11 frames, Fair should have 8 (Since it's sort of a poking tool like Shiek's). But that's just my two cents. Glad to see the changes, sad to see the nerfs.

Up Tilt's intangibility, if it's on his arm/hand, could be fantastic for anti-airing. But if it's still only on his head... Why?

And 1v1 Hydrant -> Bair is viable, sound the alarms

When I played the demo, I think Dair did autocancel on a shorthop. Not sure though.

Yeah it's the arm/hand that is intangible.

Essentially Pac-Man is the same character but faster and with worse fruits. (Aka not looking that good.) He is of course better at KO:ing now, with a buffed fair-to-key and much stronger f-smash, but I still think he has a long way to go to become viable.

 

[xzx]

Well, sucks to see the change to Dair, but good to see the change to Bair!

If Dair Autocancels on Shorthop, that's good and the landing lag change won't hurt too much. Nair is a better landing tool, anyway.

I do still think Bair should have less landing lag, though. Dair, Nair, and Uair are fine, but Bair (I think) should have 11 frames, Fair should have 8 (Since it's sort of a poking tool like Shiek's). But that's just my two cents. Glad to see the changes, sad to see the nerfs.

Up Tilt's intangibility, if it's on his arm/hand, could be fantastic for anti-airing. But if it's still only on his head... Why?

And 1v1 Hydrant -> Bair is viable, sound the alarms

When I played the demo, I think Dair did autocancel on a shorthop. Not sure though.

Yeah it's the arm/hand that is intangible.

Essentially Pac-Man is the same character but faster and with worse fruits. (Aka not looking that good.) He is of course better at KO:ing now, with a buffed fair-to-key and much stronger f-smash, but I still think he has a long way to go to become viable.

 

[Almand]

When I played the demo, I think Dair did autocancel on a shorthop. Not sure though.

Yeah it's the arm/hand that is intangible.

Essentially Pac-Man is the same character but faster and with worse fruits. (Aka not looking that good.) He is of course better at KO:ing now, with a buffed fair-to-key and much stronger f-smash, but I still think he has a long way to go to become viable.

Yeah, he certainly needs quite a lot to become a good character. His Up Tilt, Down Tilt, Bair, Fair, Dair, and all his Smashes are better (I've heard Up Smash is actually stronger than Side Smash, but I haven't seen it for myself). Of course, his speed is better too.

But that's at the cost of pretty much everything that made his Fruits great, along with a few other minor buffs. So, he's better, but they didn't do nearly enough. They didn't give him the Ganon treatment by any means. Honestly, if they gave back his Fruit utility, I'd say he's mid tier. Still needs more, but y'know. As it stands, I predict bottom 10, however much I hate to say it. :/

Here's a question for everyone: how would you change him from here? I've made a silly little compilation of what I'd like, dug up from a few days after I 'finished' the first post of this thread. Keep in mind, it's a bit of wish-fulfillment, and probably won't actually happen. That jab change, especially, is pretty much out of the question entirely; I just like the idea of it. I'm curious to hear others' ideas, though!

 

[Almand]

https://twitter.com/Purple_Debo/status/1068527554359750662

YO. The singular buff to Fruit, and it's honestly a pretty cool one. But still, bring back Z-Dropping and Fruit Cancel...

 

[Almand]

http://kuroganehammer.com/Ultimate/Attributes

There's also some changes to the attributes. Most characters have 10% faster run speed, 5% faster air speed, and... Yeah, Pac is in the same boat, not too much love there. I feel that he should be a bit faster in both regards, at least the same run speed as Mario (1.76 in Ultimate, whereas Pac is stuck at 1.672), could even serve to be the same as Pit (1.828). Air speed, I feel like Pac (Currently 1.092) should be quick. He's not slow, sure, but I think he should be at Mario or Game & Watch levels (1.208 and 1.176 respectively). I mean, now that he's not quite as good at zoning, what with his Fruits changing, he's more of an aggressive fighter who can zone if needed. And some speed buffs would really help that.

Still cool to see these changes, though! He's now faster than Smash 4 WFT on the ground, and Smash 4 Lucario in the air.

 

[xzx]

Pac-Man's trampoline can't beat shields anymore from what I've heard...

 

[Almand]

Pac-Man's trampoline can't beat shields anymore from what I've heard...

I never used Trampoline to beat out shields much, I just never really incorporated it into my kit for some reason, but this is a massive nerf even for me. His best out of shield option is gonna be a nair out of shield, which is pretty unsafe. Let's hope it's just a positioning thing; the opponent can only get hit by the Up B attack (comes out frame 4) if they first jump on the trampoline (which comes out frame 1). If the opponent doesn't hit the trampoline in those three frames, somehow, they can shield it. Here's hoping...

 

[meleebrawler]

Yeah, he certainly needs quite a lot to become a good character. His Up Tilt, Down Tilt, Bair, Fair, Dair, and all his Smashes are better (I've heard Up Smash is actually stronger than Side Smash, but I haven't seen it for myself). Of course, his speed is better too.

But that's at the cost of pretty much everything that made his Fruits great, along with a few other minor buffs. So, he's better, but they didn't do nearly enough. They didn't give him the Ganon treatment by any means. Honestly, if they gave back his Fruit utility, I'd say he's mid tier. Still needs more, but y'know. As it stands, I predict bottom 10, however much I hate to say it. :/

Here's a question for everyone: how would you change him from here? I've made a silly little compilation of what I'd like, dug up from a few days after I 'finished' the first post of this thread. Keep in mind, it's a bit of wish-fulfillment, and probably won't actually happen. That jab change, especially, is pretty much out of the question entirely; I just like the idea of it. I'm curious to hear others' ideas, though!

Are you sure it wasn't just Smash 4's engine screwing him over with it's strong emphasis on shielding and grabbing to counter that, compounded by his terrible one? Fixing that would've easily shot up him up a few tiers.

He may lose his "infinites" but maybe he doesn't need them in a place where his stuff is just easier to land in general. No deadzones on grab could mean it's meaty enough to beat spotdodges too.

 

[Almand]

Are you sure it wasn't just Smash 4's engine screwing him over with it's strong emphasis on shielding and grabbing to counter that, compounded by his terrible one? Fixing that would've easily shot up him up a few tiers.

He may lose his "infinites" but maybe he doesn't need them in a place where his stuff is just easier to land in general. No deadzones on grab could mean it's meaty enough to beat spotdodges too.

He certainly benefits from the new mechanics, mostly the less defensive play, but his kit simply doesn't favor an aggressive, combo-oriented playstyle. Many of his attacks are pretty laggy or don't have good enough angles for combos. Down Tilt, for example, sends at a 45 degree angle with too much knockback to combo. Up Tilt is better, but can only anti-air. Up Throw combos into Up Air, but after that? You can't get much because his Up Air has too much endlag. Fair can semi-combo and even kill confirm at specific percents, but that's only one move that leads into very few others. In Smash 4, he was designed as a zoner first, but can hold his own (sorta) if he needs to. That's why he struggles against characters that can break his zone and/or force him to approach. If someone gets hold of his fruit and can outrun him, he can't really do much. And now that both his Fruits and Hydrant have been nerfed (Fruit in many ways I've discussed before, and Hydrant due to many good angles like Jab or Up Tilt being changed/removed entirely), he's lost a lot of what made him a campy zoner. That, in turn, reduces him down to a subpar character with less-than-great moves and a crippled zoning tactic.

He's better, but then again, 95% of the cast is better, and was buffed in more significant ways than Dash Attack having 1 more hit or F-Throw doing a bit more damage.

And I sound bitter, yeah, but I don't think he's terrible. Not good, for sure, but I don't think he was overall nerfed. I'd say he's about the same, perhaps a bit buffed when I consider everything (especially the changes to grab, Fair, and Dair). He can be good, even as the aggressive zoner he's become, but he certainly needs some work to make his moveset coalesce a bit better.

 

[Almand]

So, I've been labbing Pac-Man:

-Fruits have been buffed in damage! Sadly, no fruit cancel or Z-Drop, but here's what we have:
-Key does 16%!!!!
-Cherry does 4.3%
-Apple does 9.5%
-Orange does 7.5%
-Bell does 7.5%
-All others return to their smash 4 values (Strawberry does 6%, Melon does 12%, Galaxian does 9%)
-Pac can recycle a Fruit he has in his hand. If you double tap B when a fruit is in your hand, you can "re-throw" it. In this state, you can recatch it, whereas you wouldn't be able to if you simply threw it normally. It does have a bit more startup and endlag, though.
-It doesn't seem to be possible to catch Key in any way other than throwing it against a wall (all fruits move upward when thrown at a wall, so you can't Bair -> Throw Key -> Catch or anything like that)
-Fair does around 7.6% (Up from 5.3% in Smash 4 and 6% in the demo)
-Short hop Fair to Falling Fair is true at mid percents, unless foe DI's away
-I haven't been able to get Fair to Key on the combo counter, but it probably has a small window to escape.
-I can't get Up Throw Up Air to show up on the combo counter, either.
-Falling Up Air is a pretty good combo tool.
-Falling Nair can combo into Fair.
-Down Air doesn't combo quite as well as I might've hoped. It doesn't autocancel out of shorthop, and has too much endlag to combo into something like Key. Has pretty high knockback, though.
-Dair seems to always send the direction Pac faces.
-Silly thing, but if you ground release an opponent, you can grab again and manage to grab them again. Grab lasts a long time!
-Side B... Doesn't work as intended. If you're right up to an opponent and Side B, you'll hit them twice, but both are the soft launcher hits. The strong, high-knockback hit seems to only be on the very end...? It's odd.

 

[Almand]

Some combos I was able to get on a CPU Donkey Kong set to "A lot" of Shuffling (Damage has 1v1 multiplier, then no multipliers):

-Run Up Shorthop Fair -> Falling Fair: 15.6%/13%

-Late Falling Up Air -> Up Tilt: 19.8%/16.5%

-Dash Attack -> Key: 31.2%/26%

-Falling Nair -> Up Smash: 32.4%/27%

-Falling Up Air -> Up Tilt -> Full Hop Dair: 35.4%/29.5%

-Run up Shorthop Fair -> Falling Nair -> F-Smash: 37.2%/31%

-Falling Nair -> Up Tilt -> Shorthop Fair -> Up Air: 37.8%/31.5%

-Falling Nair -> Shorthop Fair -> Falling Nair -> F-Smash: 49.2%/41%

-Run Up Shorthop Dair -> Shorthop Fair -> Falling Nair -> Grab -> Up Throw -> Up Air: 49.2%/41% (Up Throw may not true combo into Up Air, but escape window was tight)

-Run up Shorthop Fair -> Falling Nair -> Shorthop Fair -> Falling Nair -> Grab -> Up Throw -> Up Air: 54%/45%

-Falling Nair -> Up Tilt -> Shorthop Fair -> Falling Nair -> Grab -> Up Throw -> Up Air: 55.8%/46.5%

-Falling Nair -> Shorthop Fair -> Falling Nair -> Grab -> Full Hop Dair -> Fair: 60.7%/50.6%

-Falling Nair -> Shorthop Fair -> Falling Nair -> Grab -> Up Throw -> Full Hop Dair -> Key: 70.8%/59%

-Falling Nair -> Shorthop Fair -> Falling Nair -> Shorthop Fair -> Up Air -> Up Tilt -> Fair -> Falling Up Air -> Full Hop Fair -> Key: 102.1%/85.1% (Shorthop Fair to Up Air is not a true combo, but a good mixup if the opponent doesn't tech)


I'll see what more I can find; he's actually got some pretty cool stuff, I'm happy to say.

 

[Almand]

Probably the last post I'll make here unless Pac gets some big changes eventually:

Pac-Man has potential. His Fair is amazing for chaining across the stage, and absolutely demolishes big-body characters or anyone who can't recover (I swear, Fairplaning Chrom, Ganondorf, Little Mac, etc. is so much fun). I've even managed to get combos like Nair -> Fair -> Nair -> Fair -> Nair -> etc. into kills ACROSS THE STAGE at 0%! A kill combo that's hard to get out of, but it's also hard to execute. My idea of a good combo right there, plus it deals a solid 30-50% if the opponent gets out. His Dair is actually a pretty good kill and punish move, but sorta eh for comboing. His Bair is still weak, but has decent coverage, Fruits are still great (but I think they should still be buffed), Hydrant is still great, so on. He's a solid character.

But... He needs more, I think. His tilts are very, very lacking. F-Tilt is okay, but slow on ending lag, and doesn't deal much damage. Up Tilt is just... It can combo once in a blue moon, if your opponent is landing directly on top of you or forgets how to shield on a platform. Down Tilt is a good poking tool, but really, it could serve to be a lot better. His smashes are decently strong and disjointed, but very slow (I feel they should have FAF values near what Mario or Luigi have, in the early to mid 40's). Fruit doesn't have the versatility in mobility that Smash 4 did, Up Air is mediocre, Bair is just a hot mess all around, his speed is very lacking (ground and air), and worst of all, he struggles to kill. Sure, he has those combos for damage racking and early kills, but against a character like Mega Man or Wario (small body, but heavy), they're gonna live till 180% unless you get a cheesy Bell or Key! Against someone like Sheik, Sonic, Diddy Kong, Inkling, etc., who can zip around you, you're out of luck! Especially if they manage to get (and keep) your Fruit, you're not gonna get too far.

So, yeah. Still my main, still love him, but I feel he's just so close to being great. He's good, some Japanese tier lists label him an A tier, but people also thought Pac was high-tier in the early days of Smash 4. Only time'll tell, blah blah blah, but I personally think Pac-Man is about mid-tier. Solid, but he's got some crippling weaknesses that should be addressed in subsequent patches.

Fun fact to leave this thread with: Pac-Man's Fair now does 7.65% (Up from 5.3%, massive buff, but that's beside the point), which is a number you might've seen before. It's also in one of his victory animations, but why? Well, 765, when pronounced with the right combination of Japanese phonetic readings, comes out as "Na-mu-ko." Namco! It's called a Goroawase Number; a type of wordplay. Pac-Man is so faithful to Namco as a whole, and I love that.

 

[Wigglerman]

Where are people saying Z-Dropping isn't possible? If you recatch a fruit, it most certaintly IS Z-Droppable. Even better now is if he recatches a fruit you can either opt to z drop, hold it to rethrow or 'Fruit Loop' it (Basically you start to charge the fruit but instantly cancel it with shield or jump before the fruit changes) so when you rethrow it counts as a new projectile, allowing it to be caught AGAIN, and so on. His Z-Dropping game is by no means gone.

I stand that Pac-Man is high tier in this game. The overall buffs to his kit has made him annoying in the air, gives him far better out of shield options than simply Up-B like before, has generally better KO potential even if it isn't the best in the roster, and he can actually do some decent combos now. I can't believe how good his fair, nair. dair and bair are now. His tilts still lack a little something but I feel f-tilt is still a decent follow up to shield pressure and is pretty safe when spaced properly.

He's up to his old tricks but has plenty of new ones to catch people off guard. A lot of match ups I struggled with before aren't nearly as much an issue as Smash 4. I feel he's high tier because he goes even at worst with the rest of the potential high tiers and his worst match ups in top tier aren't completely unwinnable like I felt they were in 4 and he does well against pretty much everyone.

 

[Almand]

Where are people saying Z-Dropping isn't possible? If you recatch a fruit, it most certaintly IS Z-Droppable. Even better now is if he recatches a fruit you can either opt to z drop, hold it to rethrow or 'Fruit Loop' it (Basically you start to charge the fruit but instantly cancel it with shield or jump before the fruit changes) so when you rethrow it counts as a new projectile, allowing it to be caught AGAIN, and so on. His Z-Dropping game is by no means gone.

I stand that Pac-Man is high tier in this game. The overall buffs to his kit has made him annoying in the air, gives him far better out of shield options than simply Up-B like before, has generally better KO potential even if it isn't the best in the roster, and he can actually do some decent combos now. I can't believe how good his fair, nair. dair and bair are now. His tilts still lack a little something but I feel f-tilt is still a decent follow up to shield pressure and is pretty safe when spaced properly.

He's up to his old tricks but has plenty of new ones to catch people off guard. A lot of match ups I struggled with before aren't nearly as much an issue as Smash 4. I feel he's high tier because he goes even at worst with the rest of the potential high tiers and his worst match ups in top tier aren't completely unwinnable like I felt they were in 4 and he does well against pretty much everyone.

Nobody is saying Z-Dropping is gone entirely, just that it's not as versatile as Smash 4. In that game, he could dribble items. Aka, he could catch and recatch fruit as much as he wants, and keep dropping, picking up over and over to create pressure. A frame 1, 15% spammable option, if you could get ahold of Key. That's what we mean when we say Z-Dropping has been nerfed. You can still do it, just not nearly to the extent of Smash 4, or even other characters (this one-time drop only applies to Fruit, if memory serves). Fruit Looping is crazily powerful, though, especially with Bell, Melon, or Galaxian.

Pac-Man, to me, is upper mid tier. He's good. Great, even. But so close to being up there with the best of the best. His main problem is obviously kill power, and a few not-so-great moves. His tilts, Up Air, you could argue Grab, even certain aspects of his specials (like how all of them are double-edged swords without the best compensation for the flaw), they're all serviceable, but not breaking any boundaries.

Honestly, he's a fairly perfectly-weighted ship. Give him too much in either direction, he's capsized. Nerf his aerials, he falls apart (I still stand by his Fair being one of the very best in the entire game, and ties his moveset together really well). Buff his speed, kill options, or damage output too much, and you've got a Prepatch Smash 4 Sheik, taking you from 0 to 90% in one string before ledge trump Bair'ing you.

Don't get me wrong, I'd be elated if he stayed exactly as he was. Better than getting nerfed, after all! He works, and really well, too. His weak points are like we've mentioned, but Smash has always had a push-and-pull like that. If you want combos, sacrifice some kill power. If you wanna be strong, you have long endlag. Honestly, Pac-Man's well-off. A zoner who also has some decent tools for mid-range poking (Namely with aerials, Fair especially)? That's practically unheard of!

TL;DR: Pac-Man is fine the way he is, and potentially high tier. Could use buffs, but that's more of a 2-4 on the Needs-A-Buff scale as opposed to a 9 or 10 with characters like Little Mac or Plant.