Pac-Man has two GLARING weaknesses. Lets fix them!

[BSP]

Out of curiosity, do you have any actual hard data supporting the notion that Pac's fsmash and dsmash are weaker than most characters, or is that just general feeling? I ask because that would help us analyze better how often we should be looking to use them.

Dragontamer gave you some, but I was basing my judgment on experience. Let me rescind Dsmash being weak for a smash. I guess 13% is ok, but it still feels a bit underwhelming to me considering its mediocre startup.

DSmash Hydrant has the best angle though.

I only use DSmash on reading rolls, because I'm bad with spacing. If I were better, I'd use FSmash instead.

Oh OK, I didn't know that. I need to try Dsmashing the hydrant then, because I usually default to Fsmash. I know that if your Dsmash is stale, it won't launch in one hit, which is pretty lame.

 

[dragontamer]

DSmash's angle is absolutely excellent if you get the sweet-timing. (The first three frames are "sweet", the next 8 are sour-spot 7%).

Sweet-spot knockback angle is an awesome 24 degrees. DSmash KOs LittleMac harder than FSmash. Good for setting up BAirs backstage spikes and such.

Oh, and hydrant gets launched super-low. Again, 24-degrees.

But yeah, FSmash seems like the typically superior move. DSmash does have a few interesting properties though.

 

[Jay-kun]

DSmash's angle is absolutely excellent if you get the sweet-timing. (The first three frames are "sweet", the next 8 are sour-spot 7%).

Sweet-spot knockback angle is an awesome 24 degrees. DSmash KOs LittleMac harder than FSmash. Good for setting up BAirs backstage spikes and such.

Oh, and hydrant gets launched super-low. Again, 24-degrees.

But yeah, FSmash seems like the typically superior move. DSmash does have a few interesting properties though.

Dsmash is good for hydrant dashing/boosting

 

[Phampy]

Is our fsmash really that weak? I always thought it was deceptively powerful. I usually pivot it though against characters about to land. Dash away and pivot fsmash where they land is where I get most of my mileage out of it.

 

[Nu~]

Is our fsmash really that weak? I always thought it was deceptively powerful. I usually pivot it though against characters about to land. Dash away and pivot fsmash where they land is where I get most of my mileage out of it.

It really isn't. People underrate it. It's just unfortunate that it's slow, so people don't think its power is proportional to its speed.

 

[Paper Maribro]

I really like Jump cancelled, running up smash. It can really take people by surprise and is really quite powerful. It's also great for piercing through platforms above due to it's great range. I've caught people above focusing too much on something they were doing and sprinting in to finish them off.

Other than side-b, it's really our only option to kill people below 140%. I'm not sure about the KO power of Key and Apple, but it usually feels like 140% when I get the kill.

 

[Jay-kun]

I really like Jump cancelled, running up smash. It can really take people by surprise and is really quite powerful. It's also great for piercing through platforms above due to it's great range. I've caught people above focusing too much on something they were doing and sprinting in to finish them off.

Other than side-b, it's really our only option to kill people below 140%. I'm not sure about the KO power of Key and Apple, but it usually feels like 140% when I get the kill.

haha your playstyle differs from mine in SO many ways...I basically train Pacman for traps, traps, traps and more traps...kind of like M2K I like to find the best possible set of attacks/ traps possible.
LOL but I am far from that skill lvl tho .3.

 

[Nu~]

If we stop trying to kill in conventional ways, then maybe we wouldn't have as much trouble killing.
Bell setups with the hydrant water are amazing and steal kills for me t about 90%, side B on an opponent trapped in the galaxian loop kills very early depending on where you direct the pellet, key + hydrant ledge trap kills insanely early (~80% on Rosalina!!), and bell gimps on the ledge destroy those without a recovery as good as pit's.
Also, bouncing fruit into trampoline is amazing against a shielding opponent (they hold shield because of our grab...show them what's up)

Also, I found an amazing way to destroy Lucario's recovery. Get a melon in your hand, short hop -> throw down the melon right next to the ledge. It acts as a shield that blocks all ledge snapping. After lucario is blown away, if he isn't dead, catch the melon and set it up again. If you want to conserve the melon, you can z drop it over the ledge and try to time it right.

I feel that lucario will be stupid easy once we discover more traps and setups that earn is kills. We beat lucario in nuetral, but once he hits 130, he can stop our fruit and hydrant with microspheres. The key is to blow him up way before this point with crazy/broken traps.


I feel that the only true 40:60 matchups we will have down the road are rosa, fox, and yoshi (maybe pikachu, but I have little experience with him)

And all of these can be improved over time.

 

[revengeska]

Speed chart: http://pastebin.com/NJ4Q5PzU
KO Percent Chart: http://pastebin.com/PDtQJDSU

18 frame FSmash with a KO at roughly 109%.

In contrast... Diddy FSmash: 12F KO at 115%. (33% faster, almost the same KO potential).
Shiek FSmash: Lulz. 12F KO at 142%
Robin FSmash: 16F KO at 101%
Lucina FSmash: 10F KO at 106%
Capt. Falcon: 19F KO at 96%
Pit / Dark Pit: 10F KO at 118%

Our FSmash is slower and weaker than a lot of the cast. The characters with weaker FSmashes (Pit, Shiek, Diddy) are much much faster than us.

Its basically PacMan and Sonic with these slow and weak FSmashes. Shiek has a weak FSmash, but at 12F its much faster than us.

Awesome, thanks for this. Fsmash is still a good option if we can dwindle the opponent's options to make a good prediction, but not something to throw out there often.

Dragontamer gave you some, but I was basing my judgment on experience. Let me rescind Dsmash being weak for a smash. I guess 13% is ok, but it still feels a bit underwhelming to me considering its mediocre startup.

Looks pretty accurate to me. I'll likely try to use Dsmash more vs heavy rollers, but if we use Fsmash it should be when we're safe or when we're pretty sure we can land it.

I really like Jump cancelled, running up smash. It can really take people by surprise and is really quite powerful. It's also great for piercing through platforms above due to it's great range. I've caught people above focusing too much on something they were doing and sprinting in to finish them off.

Other than side-b, it's really our only option to kill people below 140%. I'm not sure about the KO power of Key and Apple, but it usually feels like 140% when I get the kill.

Apple is about 140% and Melon isn't far behind that, but I look to kill with the key around 115%-120%. The Key is our most reliable kill option, bar none. I get a huge percentage if not the majority of my kills this way. I try to find different ways to kill, but nothing Pac has beats the combo of versatility, speed, and power that the Key has.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

This Melon block tech can be proven usefull for other matchups too

 

[MachoCheeze]

Have you all tried throwing the melon up and throwing people into it? I know Pac-Man's grab is booty, but I've got a few surprise kills off of it it's pretty hype.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

I'd much rather snipe opponents who are jumping over me with a Hydrant Gushed Melon.

 

[Jay-kun]

If we stop trying to kill in conventional ways, then maybe we wouldn't have as much trouble killing.
Bell setups with the hydrant water are amazing and steal kills for me t about 90%, side B on an opponent trapped in the galaxian loop kills very early depending on where you direct the pellet, key + hydrant ledge trap kills insanely early (~80% on Rosalina!!), and bell gimps on the ledge destroy those without a recovery as good as pit's.
Also, bouncing fruit into trampoline is amazing against a shielding opponent (they hold shield because of our grab...show them what's up)

Also, I found an amazing way to destroy Lucario's recovery. Get a melon in your hand, short hop -> throw down the melon right next to the ledge. It acts as a shield that blocks all ledge snapping. After lucario is blown away, if he isn't dead, catch the melon and set it up again. If you want to conserve the melon, you can z drop it over the ledge and try to time it right.

You can pick up bonus fruit after a down-throw?
Also Bell is AMAZING for edge guarding (possibly a campy Killager) I killed him my Bell right on him and he got stage-spiked :0
AND what do you mean bounce bonus fruit off trampoline? Is that possible?

 

[Nu~]

You can pick up bonus fruit after a down-throw?
Also Bell is AMAZING for edge guarding (possibly a campy Killager) I killed him my Bell right on him and he got stage-spiked :0
AND what do you mean bounce bonus fruit off trampoline? Is that possible?

Not literally bouncing it off of the hydrant. I mean throwing the fruit up and then using tranpoline to bounce the opponent into it.
And oops, you can't catch a fruit after item toss. Muh bad ^^

 

[Sinji]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4H1AveMj6xE

This video is an extra boost of confidence against the Megaman match up

 

[Jay-kun]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?.

That's me. That's how I play

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Daily two cents incoming:

-I just made a nice trap.
I had the trampoline in front of the Hydrant and I stood on top of it.
I U-Turned Side B'ed into the Hydrant.
I hit the opponent because the trampoline launched me up.

-Wario can extend the hitbox of his fart by using it on his bike. (MySmashCorner has a nice YTVid on it.)
Can we do the same with Hydrant instead of bike and a random move instead of fart.

 

[mmik]

Are you sure about that second one?

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Are you sure about that second one?

http://youtu.be/faMvl0XYXAc

Starts at 2:20

The wording was a bit misleading, but it revolves using the Waft on a fallen bike.

 

[mmik]

Sorry I know about wario. I meant does hitting the hydrant actually extend our attacks? The usefulness for wario was because of its kill potential, though.

 

[~Rainbow Mika]

Launching the hydrant, Keys, Bell K.O (including the edge one) are my favorites ways to kill, also i like to gets K.O with UpThrow when i'm getting annoyed at how much percent the opponent has (it kills at 200% lol)

PD: I
killed a Sonic at 97% with a falling Hydrant when he wanted the upair follow after a spindash, it was awesome.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Sorry I know about wario. I meant does hitting the hydrant actually extend our attacks? The usefulness for wario was because of its kill potential, though.

I had the same question.

 

[Sinji]

I discovered some Bell tricks last week. I was going to upload them but the new update killed my replays, here's what I have. I timed the bell correctly by throwing it in the air then upsmashing the opponent into it as the bell is falling down, then fsmashing them to take the stock. This worked around 110%. Rolling by the edge (facing away from the blast zone) then throwing the bell to catch them if they ledge roll. I realized that the bell freezes in mid air if the opponent power shields it making it easier the grab again with a fair.

 

[Jay-kun]

I discovered some Bell tricks last week. I was going to upload them but the new update killed my replays, here's what I have. I timed the bell correctly by throwing it in the air then upsmashing the opponent into it as the bell is falling down, then fsmashing them to take the stock. This worked around 110%. Rolling by the edge (facing away from the blast zone) then throwing the bell to catch them if they ledge roll. I realized that the bell freezes in mid air if the opponent power shields it making it easier the grab again with a fair.

nice new(?) profile pic