Pac-Man has two GLARING weaknesses. Lets fix them!

[Nu~]

I seriously don't understand why people think our mobility is bad. We have great horizontal movement in the air and an average running speed. Our floatiness makes it harder for us to land, but is amazing for offstage combat

 

[Firedemon0]

I seriously don't understand why people think our mobility is bad. We have great horizontal movement in the air and an average running speed. Our floatiness makes it harder for us to land, but is amazing for offstage combat

I think part of it is online lag, and the For Glory heroes. I've run into some very poor Pac-man players that spammed Side-B and hydrant and that was it and I get to style them a bit. I do feel some thoughts on tiers may come from the For Glory new to smash mindset. I will admit that Smash 4 brought me back into competitive smash after bowing out of melee almost a decade ago.

 

[Sinji]

Yea I feel like Rob beats Pac for the soul reason that his laser goes through the hydrant + his gyro destroys the hydrant completely overwhelming him. Pit is a matchup I suffer from. He can direct his arrows and stop my fruit charge even when hiding behind the hydrant. Whats worse is he has a great dash grab + the majority of his throws has guaranteed follow ups. Edge guarding is easy because I can trow a fruit horizontally and a hydrant vertically but I feel like Pit win the neutral game. If Dark Pit had the same arrows then it would be the same case but Pac-Man wins against Dark Pit.

 

[Firedemon0]

Yea I feel like Rob beats Pac for the soul reason that his laser goes through the hydrant + his gyro destroys the hydrant completely overwhelming him. Pit is a matchup I suffer from. He can direct his arrows and stop my fruit charge even when hiding behind the hydrant. Whats worse is he has a great dash grab + the majority of his throws has guaranteed follow ups. Edge guarding is easy because I can trow a fruit horizontally and a hydrant vertically but I feel like Pit win the neutral game. If Dark Pit had the same arrows then it would be the same case but Pac-Man wins against Dark Pit.

Rob is honestly not that dangerous of a match up. I used to feel the same away until I learned a few things about Rob's capabilities. The biggest thing to note about gyro, is that we can grab it. We can keep it out of his hands, and there is nothing he can do about it. His laser is only potent once in awhile, it has a charge time which is tracked by the light on his head. The brighter it gets, the stronger the laser is. He has a blind spot in the top corners of his hitbox. You can do a retreating short hop fairs to poke at him to bait out his tilts or jabs and follow up with fruit. His OOS of shield options are quite poor compared to other characters because his Nair has large startup, and his up-smash only hits from above. If you are facing a campy rob, grab his gyro and pelt him with fruit salad. He is too large to withstand a barrage of things that Pac-man can launch.

Once you start getting up in percent, you do need to be careful to not be grabbed. Rob has the most deadly up-throw in the game. If you insist on getting in his face, you need to be aware that landing next to him will be a very bad decision. At the same time, once you can knock him off stage, just fair/nair him back out repeatedly. His Up-B has limited fuel that does not regenerate when he is hit. He also has to risk more fuel usage to hit you with up air or fair. His down tilt is fast, but he is unable to reach Pac-man if he does a rising fair and retreats back.

Pit's arrows can be controlled, but they can only go so far in angle. There is a dead spot diagonally that is prime apple to face that Pit is unable to deal with if he is spamming them. If you have no issues with Dark pit, Pit is more of the same. Honestly.

 

[Nu~]

Yea I feel like Rob beats Pac for the soul reason that his laser goes through the hydrant + his gyro destroys the hydrant completely overwhelming him. Pit is a matchup I suffer from. He can direct his arrows and stop my fruit charge even when hiding behind the hydrant. Whats worse is he has a great dash grab + the majority of his throws has guaranteed follow ups. Edge guarding is easy because I can trow a fruit horizontally and a hydrant vertically but I feel like Pit win the neutral game. If Dark Pit had the same arrows then it would be the same case but Pac-Man wins against Dark Pit.

We blow ROB out in nuetral. His laser shouldn't matter much if you stay mobile (you really shouldn't try to hide behind the hydrant).
And for pit, you should not be charging behind the hydrant whenever you need to charge. Be more mobile with it. Pit outranges us, but is much slower in the air when it comes to movement and attacks. Also, our dtilt outranges his ground options bar fsmash.
Fruit give him a very hard time due to his laggy reflector, and we can gimp his predictable recovery

 

[dragontamer]

Rob is honestly not that dangerous of a match up. I used to feel the same away until I learned a few things about Rob's capabilities. The biggest thing to note about gyro, is that we can grab it. We can keep it out of his hands, and there is nothing he can do about it. His laser is only potent once in awhile, it has a charge time which is tracked by the light on his head. The brighter it gets, the stronger the laser is. He has a blind spot in the top corners of his hitbox. You can do a retreating short hop fairs to poke at him to bait out his tilts or jabs and follow up with fruit. His OOS of shield options are quite poor compared to other characters because his Nair has large startup, and his up-smash only hits from above. If you are facing a campy rob, grab his gyro and pelt him with fruit salad. He is too large to withstand a barrage of things that Pac-man can launch.

Once you start getting up in percent, you do need to be careful to not be grabbed. Rob has the most deadly up-throw in the game. If you insist on getting in his face, you need to be aware that landing next to him will be a very bad decision. At the same time, once you can knock him off stage, just fair/nair him back out repeatedly. His Up-B has limited fuel that does not regenerate when he is hit. He also has to risk more fuel usage to hit you with up air or fair. His down tilt is fast, but he is unable to reach Pac-man if he does a rising fair and retreats back.

Pit's arrows can be controlled, but they can only go so far in angle. There is a dead spot diagonally that is prime apple to face that Pit is unable to deal with if he is spamming them. If you have no issues with Dark pit, Pit is more of the same. Honestly.

I don't really have much to add to this. Firedemon0's experience matches mine quite precisely.

I think we have a 6:4 advantage against Rob. The only thing I'd add is that Rob's UAir hits _through_ hydrant, making his juggling game much more dangerous than the typical foe. But beyond that, SH Retreating Fairs (character-specific strategy to Rob and a few others) with Rob's very poor OOS options really give us a major advantage in the neutral game.

 

[LanceStern]

Perhaps I approach ROB too much, but EVERYTHING about his aerial game and even neutral game shuts PacMan down.

He hits harder, has less cooldown, has bigger range in just about everything. Can I post a video or two? You guys can help me see something I can't see because the matchup is in ROBs favor 6:4 in my opinion

 

[Paper Maribro]

Aerial wise, his Bair, Nair and Dair have tonnes of startup time. They're quite hard to hit without taking reads. Juggling ROB with up airs is nice and easy because he has no way of safely returning to the ground. Exploit that.

Don't not approach ROB either, just be smarter about approaching. Not approaching ROB is playing into his hands, he wants space to set up Gyros, charge lasers and create Nair walls. Don't give him the opportunity. His tilts and jab are all solid but they aren't OMGWTF good. Respect them but remember you want to put pressure on him.

 

[AGES]

dont have too much to add to the ROB matchup after all thats been said so far, but just something to take note, like most grabbable items when youre holding on to the gyro you can still launch your hydrant by running off, dropping it with Z to hit it once, then launching it/regrabbing it with fair.
Lasers can be a little annoying, but at the same time they can be VERY predictable if you try to predict them, due to obvious spacing scenarios and the aforementioned light on his head.

 

[RandomHobo587]

I remember reading a thread a little while ago about the relationship between the fruits and the hydrant. Essentially if you throw a fruit into one of the three water streams it shoots out, then it will make the fruit behave differently. Each spout gives a different effect for each fruit. For example, if you throw a key into a spout coming towards you, it will launch it up at a 45 degree angle. Throwing a melon into it will make it go straight up. Throwing a bell will make it launch behind you in a larger arc. Maybe trying to integrate those into your game play could help with taking down tougher enemies, since it will most likely catch them off-guard.

 

[LanceStern]

I must be playing some insane ROBs cause they cancel all of their attacks

 

[Firedemon0]

I must be playing some insane ROBs cause they cancel all of their attacks

I doubt they cancel them, Rob has no Shield tricks. He has very low end lag on most of his tilts, so he can still spam or shield afterwards. If a rob is down tilting repeatedly, just charge fruit. When he stops he will likely just laser or gyro, which can be blocked.

 

[ptrk83]

Key works well on campy Robs... Just stay your distance and bait neutral airs..

Rosalina in my opinion is our toughest match up... Down B neutralizes EVERYTHING.

 

[dragontamer]

Rosalina in my opinion is our toughest match up... Down B neutralizes EVERYTHING.

I can agree that Rosalina is a very tough matchup for us.

A minor tip: keep launching those Hydrants at her. When she "disappears" a hydrant, you can throw out a new one almost instantly. Use her gravity pull against her, and spam fruits and Hydrants at a higher-rate than you can do in any other matchup.

Forcing the Rosalina to use Gravity Pull is typically to our advantage. It can chips away at Luna's HP, locks Rosalina down herself, and gives us some fruit-charge time. Is a very minor advantage, but an advantage you should constantly take advantage of in the matchup.

 

[Sinji]

In addition to what dragontamer said, the hydrant separates luma and Rosalina giving you time to focus on Rosalina (if Rosalina launches luma, she normally does). Rosalina players normally shield or roll when luma's far away. Nair is a safe/good edge guard against Rosalina's recovery.

 

[RandomHobo587]

So, I've been watching Abadango lately (IMO the Worldwide Best Pac-Man player) and what i've noticed is that he uses a lot of traps to kill his opponents. As some examples, using the key to launch the hydrant: The key can hit the opponent. If they dodge it, they will probably hit the hydrant. At low percentages, if the key hits them, the hydrant will, too. On slanted stages (or if you're fast enough), throw the melon, catch it, make a trampoline on the ground. If the opponent touches it, throw down a hydrant and z-drop the melon or z-drop a bell to stun them THEN throw down the hydrant. Should deal about 30%+ damage and launch them fairly fair. It will kill at high-ish percentages. Use Oranges and Strawberries for gimping recoveries, the orange in particular since it usually sends the opponent to the side rather than up. For character with a large amount of landing lag, use the key a few frames before they land and 90% of the time they won't be able to react. A lot of other traps can be set up with trampolines, hydrants, and z-dropped fruits. The strawberry, Melon, Bell, and key are especially good for this. So just experiment! And if anybody has a thread that helps with catching fruits, please post it.

 

[Sinji]

SO guys, Abadango is going to face Debuz in top 8. What do you guys think will happen? Do you think he will go with Wario or do you think he will come up with an optimal strategy with Pac-Man we have never seen? I know the z drop key strategy is good against Rosa. I've seen his Pac-Man beat Rain's Rosalina in the 3DS version but Dabuz is a different Rosalina. What are your thoughts guys?

 

[Firedemon0]

SO guys, Abadango is going to face Debuz in top 8. What do you guys think will happen? Do you think he will go with Wario or do you think he will come up with an optimal strategy with Pac-Man we have never seen? I know the z drop key strategy is good against Rosa. I've seen his Pac-Man beat Rain's Rosalina in the 3DS version but Dabuz is a different Rosalina. What are your thoughts guys?

For the growth of Pac-man's meta, I fully expect a first round Pac, if he gets bodied, maybe switching to Wario. I have Wario as a secondary, and he has more tools that wreck Rosalina's day. Bike means no luma most of the time. Waft will destroy Rosalina as well because of how light she is.

 

[dragontamer]

I hope he sticks with PacMan. RosaLuma's nerfs greatly improved the matchup for us in 1.0.4, but its still RosaLuma's advantage.

With that said, Wario is a much better matchup vs RosaLuma, so he really _should_ switch characters if he wants to win the tournament. But I'm up for seeing top-tier PacMan vs RosaLuma matches for study.

 

[revengeska]

Whatever he needs to do to beat Debuz I'm all for. He has some time to prepare, so it'll be telling whether he switches to Wario or stays with Pac for the matchup. But I would rather he use Wario and advance so we get to see Pac next round than use Pac now and get eliminated.

 

[BSP]

If I were Abadango, I'd be going Wario. There's character loyalty, and then there's the hundreds/thousands on the line.

 

[Sinji]

After watching Abadango vs Dabuz, I felt a little disappointed. He was using items for the most part and not using enough aerials. There were times when he could have used SH retreating fairs into a F Smash. Dabuz in particular likes to punish any attack with dash attack or up smash. That's where FSmash comes in. The match up is strange because Rosalina wins the item game but Pac-Man can control the footsie game. We had a discussion similar to that last week. Certain pokes are necessary in the matchup. I like how he was using the key z drop trick and separating luma and Rosa with the hydrant.

 

[dragontamer]

Was it just me, or did Abadango not do a single fox-trot FSmash?

PacMan's Fox-Trot FSmash is a trick that should be used.... maybe once per match, at the most. But I didn't see him use it at all. I've been playing around with it to confirm Bell-KOs recently (erm... poorly. Still need a lot of practice). But Fox-trot FSmash (aka Stutter-step FSmash) is a trick that should be used _at least_ for Bell KOs. There were a few times when Abadango had to go for a weaker hit because it didn't seem like he had that tech as an option.

 

[Lord Cruxis]

Was it just me, or did Abadango not do a single fox-trot FSmash?

PacMan's Fox-Trot FSmash is a trick that should be used.... maybe once per match, at the most. But I didn't see him use it at all. I've been playing around with it to confirm Bell-KOs recently (erm... poorly. Still need a lot of practice). But Fox-trot FSmash (aka Stutter-step FSmash) is a trick that should be used _at least_ for Bell KOs. There were a few times when Abadango had to go for a weaker hit because it didn't seem like he had that tech as an option.

Also, i don't know if you guys noticed. During his match in top 16, I forget who, but it was vs a diddy and then the other guy switch to palutena, but abadango did a SH fair while the opponent was shielding into foot stool, breaking the shield, putting the guy in a bit of stun and then dropping the hydrant for guaranteed damage. It was amazing! A nice option added for the mix ups of Fair, Fair or fair bair during the neutral.

Also quick question what is Fox-Trot Fsmash? I'm guessing a little forward backward motion before doing Fsmash?

 

[revengeska]

Was it just me, or did Abadango not do a single fox-trot FSmash?

PacMan's Fox-Trot FSmash is a trick that should be used.... maybe once per match, at the most. But I didn't see him use it at all. I've been playing around with it to confirm Bell-KOs recently (erm... poorly. Still need a lot of practice). But Fox-trot FSmash (aka Stutter-step FSmash) is a trick that should be used _at least_ for Bell KOs. There were a few times when Abadango had to go for a weaker hit because it didn't seem like he had that tech as an option.

Abadango seems allergic to using Pac's smashes to begin with. The only times I recall him using it are for a bell follow-up, and to break the hydrant. But I'll have to go back and see if there was a good opportunity for a fox trot fsmash on bell stun.

 

[Jay-kun]

Abandago is the best Pac player? Isn't that opinion :/

 

[dragontamer]

Abadango seems allergic to using Pac's smashes to begin with. The only times I recall him using it are for a bell follow-up, and to break the hydrant. But I'll have to go back and see if there was a good opportunity for a fox trot fsmash on bell stun.

I'm allergic to FSmash too. Its a very slow move, and its kill potential is only mediocre compared to the cast. Compared to Mario, Robin, Rosalina, Marth, Lucina, Pits... its obvious that our FSmash is lacking in both speed and KO potential.

But as the occasional "wtf range" moment, maybe two times per match, its a good tech to have. The less you use a move, the less the opponent expects it.

 

[revengeska]

I'm allergic to FSmash too. Its a very slow move, and its kill potential is only mediocre compared to the cast. Compared to Mario, Robin, Rosalina, Marth, Lucina, Pits... its obvious that our FSmash is lacking in both speed and KO potential.

But as the occasional "wtf range" moment, maybe two times per match, its a good tech to have. The less you use a move, the less the opponent expects it.

I agree, and I use it more often than I should. However, I think it's still a bit underrated. It is still a potent kill move with range and disjointed hitboxes. You just need good reads.

 

[ptrk83]

Abadango seems allergic to using Pac's smashes to begin with. The only times I recall him using it are for a bell follow-up, and to break the hydrant. But I'll have to go back and see if there was a good opportunity for a fox trot fsmash on bell stun.

Pac's Smashes and throws just get him in trouble.. he was being smart.

 

[Jay-kun]

Pac's Smashes and throws just get him in trouble.. he was being smart.

DISLIKE!

 

[ptrk83]

DISLIKE!

I dislike it too but every time he attempted to throw or smash (which were rare) he got punished. They are just way to slow/predictable and should only be used when your opponent is an idiot and makes HUGE mistakes.

 

[Nu~]

Well now, let's not talk about our smashes as if they are useless. Fsmash is actually very powerful (killing Mario at 109 center stage on fd) with a lot of range. Both our f smash and fsmash beat spot dodges because of how long they linger, and D smash is amazing for catching rolls and potential cross ups just because of how much range it has and because it covers both sides immediately.
Usmash is an amazing anti air with great vertical range, and can suck opponents in from about one Mario length away. It also beats strong anti juggle moves like bowser bomb and Yoshi bomb.
Our smashes are actually pretty good, they just can't be used like other smash attacks.


What I do to catch an opponent that likes to run in for a quick grab or DA,
is walk away from them as a feint, and then stutter step back wards or perfect pivot backwards into fsmash once they get too close. This gives me space to escape if it hits their shield, or can get me a quick 16% if they don't react in time.

 

[ptrk83]

Well now, let's not talk about our smashes as if they are useless. Fsmash is actually very powerful (killing Mario at 109 center stage on fd) with a lot of range. Both our f smash and fsmash beat spot dodges because of how long they linger, and D smash is amazing for catching rolls and potential cross ups just because of how much range it has and because it covers both sides immediately.
Usmash is an amazing anti air with great vertical range, and can suck opponents in from about one Mario length away. It also beats strong anti juggle moves like bowser bomb and Yoshi bomb.
Our smashes are actually pretty good, they just can't be used like other smash attacks.


What I do to catch an opponent that likes to run in for a quick grab or DA,
is walk away from them as a feint, and then stutter step back wards or perfect pivot backwards into fsmash once they get too close. This gives me space to escape if it hits their shield, or can get me a quick 16% if they don't react in time.

Must be nice playing Bowsers and Yoshis who down b directly over you AND still have enough time to up smash..

like I said.. in high level play our smashes and throws are extremely dangerous to use and are almost always predicted. There is a reason a PRO like Aba used them so infrequently.

 

[Nu~]

Must be nice playing Bowsers and Yoshis who down b directly over you AND still have enough time to up smash..

like I said.. in high level play our smashes and throws are extremely dangerous to use and are almost always predicted. There is a reason a PRO like Aba used them so infrequently.

LOL okay that was actually funny.
But It wasn't meant to be taken literally, just shows the priority it has over aerials.
Yeah he may be a PRO, but potential for improvement is always there.

I'm telling you now. We (or me if you all want to avoid them like the plague forever) will find ways to utilize our smashes more.


Edit: I recently found out that our grab is actually really good at catching landings (it's so large and lasts so long)
A perfect pivot grab when your opponent is trying to land and/or cross you up is very unconventional and effective.
Our grab is awesome for reads, unlike other characters.

 

[Sinji]

^ Pivot grabs was another thing I didn't see from Abadango. Dabuz was jumping a lot to simply time him out. Back when Rich Brown was using Pac-Man, he implemented pivot grabs a lot to catch Mew2King off guard and got a lot percent off of him. Its a great tool against characters that like to hover above you like Yoshi, Wario and Jigglypuff.

 

[BSP]

Pac-Man's smashes are average IMO. They're like swords, but with more start up and less power.

Fsmash has pretty good disjointed range and lingers, but it's weaker than most Fsmashes. I use it for hard reads and to catch landings because of its disjoint and range. It's pretty bad on block though, so I don't use it on grounded people usually unless I get a hard read.

Usmash is also a great disjoint anti-air and does great damage when both hits connect, but its range behind Pac-Man is near nonexistent, which sucks. It's probably my most used Smash for KO'ing since the ending lag isn't too bad and it has decent power.

Dsmash is the one I use the least. It's startup isn't that great and it does pretty low damage for a smash, but it does hit on both sides simultaneously with lingering, disjointed hitboxes. I view it as an alternative to Fsmash when you aren't sure which side they're going to be on, and you trade power and reach for coverage.

Abadango probably didn't grab much because the risk/reward just isn't worth it sometimes. If Pac-Man misses, he is eating a smash no doubt, and at higher percents, missing a grab costs Pac-Man the game.

 

[dragontamer]

DSmash Hydrant has the best angle though.

I only use DSmash on reading rolls, because I'm bad with spacing. If I were better, I'd use FSmash instead.

 

[revengeska]

Pac-Man's smashes are average IMO. They're like swords, but with more start up and less power.

Fsmash has pretty good disjointed range and lingers, but it's weaker than most Fsmashes. I use it for hard reads and to catch landings because of its disjoint and range. It's pretty bad on block though, so I don't use it on grounded people usually unless I get a hard read.

Usmash is also a great disjoint anti-air and does great damage when both hits connect, but its range behind Pac-Man is near nonexistent, which sucks. It's probably my most used Smash for KO'ing since the ending lag isn't too bad and it has decent power.

Dsmash is the one I use the least. It's startup isn't that great and it does pretty low damage for a smash, but it does hit on both sides simultaneously with lingering, disjointed hitboxes. I view it as an alternative to Fsmash when you aren't sure which side they're going to be on, and you trade power and reach for coverage.

Abadango probably didn't grab much because the risk/reward just isn't worth it sometimes. If Pac-Man misses, he is eating a smash no doubt, and at higher percents, missing a grab costs Pac-Man the game.

Out of curiosity, do you have any actual hard data supporting the notion that Pac's fsmash and dsmash are weaker than most characters, or is that just general feeling? I ask because that would help us analyze better how often we should be looking to use them.

 

[dragontamer]

Speed chart: http://pastebin.com/NJ4Q5PzU
KO Percent Chart: http://pastebin.com/PDtQJDSU

18 frame FSmash with a KO at roughly 109%.

In contrast... Diddy FSmash: 12F KO at 115%. (33% faster, almost the same KO potential).
Shiek FSmash: Lulz. 12F KO at 142%
Robin FSmash: 16F KO at 101%
Lucina FSmash: 10F KO at 106%
Capt. Falcon: 19F KO at 96%
Pit / Dark Pit: 10F KO at 118%

Our FSmash is slower and weaker than a lot of the cast. The characters with weaker FSmashes (Pit, Shiek, Diddy) are much much faster than us.

Its basically PacMan and Sonic with these slow and weak FSmashes. Shiek has a weak FSmash, but at 12F its much faster than us.

 

[Firedemon0]

I am leaning more and more away from using Smashes to kill excluding upsmash. I've been finding that Ftilt is much better punish option until kill percents almost 80% (not scientific) of the time. More often then not, when I have been going for the smash or grab punish, I eat it hard. I do feel that his best kill options are Apple for lighter characters, Orange gimping for poor recovery characters, Key, Side B/Hydrant traps.

If we throw in custom moves, I am leaning towards Power Trampoline as another option too, it is stronger than meteor trampoline as an anti shield measure, though it does cost us some breathing room that default and meteor trampolines provide. I do feel with Abadango's performance, it will be a less effective option for zoning. I also want to face off against a villager to see if it passes the bowling ball to face test for recovery. I've found more players better able to gimp side B based recovery, and meteor trampoline is much too risky to use if we get gimped.