Pac-Man Custom Moveset Discussion

[Jay-kun]

I'm personally loving freaky fruit paired with on-fire hydrant so far. I've yet to make full use of meteor trampoline but it's great for when people lose invincibility on the ledge and you just up B on them. Also, for on-fire hydrant, the sourspot tips of the flame that do 4% are actually great for hit confirms into KOs. Something I experimented with just now demonstrates this.

This does in fact true combo and as you can see, it KOd him at 80% which is amazing for Pac-Man. Granted, there are other factors that could've possibly changed this but this should be a good display of the power customs can possess in Pac's future.

Something else you can see me do here is utilize the empty fruit charge from a dash into the KO move. This is something we should incorporate into our games more since it allows us to use any of our standard moves almost instantly from a dash rather than shield>shield drop or waiting for the skid to end. It has a lot of potential when paired with hit confirms and the input is dash>B>Shield (to cancel) with the latter two inputs being done quickly. I'm aware it's been known but I've never seen it utilized extensively. Something else you can do with this is dash with a key in hand>ftilt with key in hand (input being hold down on control stick and C-stick forward) then read the airdodge for a key throw. Basically, this gives us better means to approach.

I am confused... what is this empty fruit dash?

 

[Rashid]

I am confused... what is this empty fruit dash?

From what I see, it's basically using neutral B when a fruit you spawned already exists. It causes a meaningless, short animation. Because it's short and you can use it while running, you can act faster out of dashing if you use it instead of stopping and waiting for the skid animation to end.

 

[Spirst]

Yeah, that's pretty much it. When a fruit is spawned already, you can do this relatively easily and just need to dash>press B>do an attack. When no fruits are spawned, you can still do it but the timing has to be precise or you'll either accidentally throw a fruit or do a power pellet. So when no fruits are spawned, it has to be dash>B>shield to cancel the charge quickly>input attack.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Well then we have to ask ourselves, does freaky fruit and on fire go together better than freaky fruit and power pac jump?
I thought that 2121 would be better for the Pac-Main that wants to focus more on fruit gushing than trampoline traps. More options is always good.

Now that I see the sets, I think an extra Default Tramp set is better than another Meteor/PPJ set.
Right now, 1112 is our only Default Tramp set and I think we should have another.

 

[Firedemon0]

Now that I see the sets, I think an extra Default Tramp set is better than another Meteor/PPJ set.
Right now, 1112 is our only Default Tramp set and I think we should have another.

We aren't trying to strike a balance between the moves but rather the best 10 sets Pac-man has. While default trampoline is definitely the strongest recovery, onstage Meteor trampoline does a better job. Offstage PPJ is a safer option for recovery, because in my opinion in high level play it can and should be stolen. If you use it close to stage, Meteor still fits the bill. My personal belief is that It is the opposite of the side B issue, the other customs just feel better to me. I do not feel Pac-man is horribly disadvantaged with either trampoline, since Side B recovery has been unaffected in any of the sets.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

We aren't trying to strike a balance between the moves but rather the best 10 sets Pac-man has. While default trampoline is definitely the strongest recovery, onstage Meteor trampoline does a better job. Offstage PPJ is a safer option for recovery, because in my opinion in high level play it can and should be stolen. If you use it close to stage, Meteor still fits the bill. My personal belief is that It is the opposite of the side B issue, the other customs just feel better to me. I do not feel Pac-man is horribly disadvantaged with either trampoline, since Side B recovery has been unaffected in any of the sets.

Sorry, I forgot it's for high-level play.
I imagined someone who wanted both recovery and traps, but every competent player should be able to recover with Meteor.

You're right.

 

[Firedemon0]

Sorry, I forgot it's for high-level play.
I imagined someone who wanted both recovery and traps, but every competent player should be able to recover with Meteor.

You're right.

All good, I completely understand the oddity of replacing a default move, and that extra recovery is great when you side b into the ledge.

That said, I do feel that we are pretty close to nailing down the 10 sets.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

All good, I completely understand the oddity of replacing a default move, and that extra recovery is great when you side b into the ledge.

That said, I do feel that we are pretty close to nailing down the 10 sets.

Definitely.
The sets @ Nu~ posted are super solid IMO.

 

[Firedemon0]

To keep backtracking less needed.

2132 (The aggressive trap Pac)
2122
2131

3131 (The defensive zoning Pac)
3132 ("The stage is mine" Pac)
3121

1112
1123 (Anti Rosa) <===Last set to decide on, possibilities currently 2121, 1121, 1131, 2111, or 3111
1132
1122

 

[Nu~]

To keep backtracking less needed.

2132 (The aggressive trap Pac)
2122
2131

3131 (The defensive zoning Pac)
3132 ("The stage is mine" Pac)
3121

1112
1123 (Anti Rosa) <===Last set to decide on, possibilities currently 2121, 1121, 1131, 2111, or 3111
1132
1122

I think you may have missed my latest update

2132 (The aggressive trap Pac)
2122
2131
2121

3131 (The defensive zoning Pac)
3132 ("The stage is mine" Pac)
3121

1112
1132
1121

I fully agree that dire hydrant isn't worth it.

 

[Firedemon0]

I think you may have missed my latest update

2132 (The aggressive trap Pac)
2122
2131
2121

3131 (The defensive zoning Pac)
3132 ("The stage is mine" Pac)
3121

1112
1132
1121

I fully agree that dire hydrant isn't worth it.

I think those fit perfectly imo, They cover just about everything one would need. The only other I would of suggested would of been maybe 3111, but 3121 is pretty close to that without too much changed.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

To keep backtracking less needed.

2132 (The aggressive trap Pac)
2122 (The outright aggresive Pac)
2131 (The Freaky Fruit Gushing Pac)

3131 (The defensive zoning Pac)
3132 ("The stage is mine" Pac)
3121

1112
1123 (Anti Rosa) <===Last set to decide on, possibilities currently 2121, 1121, 1131, 2111, or 3111
1132
1122

My thoughts on the replacements of Anti-Rosa:
The new set doesn't have to be an Anti-Rosa one, the 1122 set is the best against her and the pummeling pillow.

2121: As you said, we aren't to strike a balance, and I think we shouldn't be using Freaky Fruit without either Meteor or On-Fire.
This set is purely for having Default Hydrant with Freaky Fruit again.

2111: Freaky Fruit loses a ton of potential when losing both On-Fire Hydrant and Meteor Tramp.
If you want good recovery, use the FF + PPJ set

3111: See above

1121: See below

1131: Meteor Tramp stand-alone seems to be worth it. It's Default Pac with a spike. Conservative, but seems to be effective.

IMO, 2111 shouldn't even be in the running, for the rest it's

1. 1311
2. 1121
3. 3111/2121

Tl;dr:
I would replace 2121 with 1311

 

[Nu~]

My thoughts on the replacements of Anti-Rosa:
The new set doesn't have to be an Anti-Rosa one, the 1122 set is the best against her and the pummeling pillow.

2121: As you said, we aren't to strike a balance, and I think we shouldn't be using Freaky Fruit without either Meteor or On-Fire.
This set is purely for having Default Hydrant with Freaky Fruit again.

2111: Freaky Fruit loses a ton of potential when losing both On-Fire Hydrant and Meteor Tramp.
If you want good recovery, use the FF + PPJ set

3111: See above

1121: See below

1131: Meteor Tramp stand-alone seems to be worth it. It's Default Pac with a spike. Conservative, but seems to be effective.

IMO, 2111 shouldn't even be in the running, for the rest it's

1. 1311
2. 1121
3. 3111/2121

Tl;dr:
I would replace 2121 with 1311

I think you mean 1131.

And I do understand. Does everyone agree however?

 

[WeirdChillFever]

I think you mean 1131.

And I do understand. Does everyone agree however?

Yeah, 1131

 

[Firedemon0]

My thoughts on the replacements of Anti-Rosa:
The new set doesn't have to be an Anti-Rosa one, the 1122 set is the best against her and the pummeling pillow.

2121: As you said, we aren't to strike a balance, and I think we shouldn't be using Freaky Fruit without either Meteor or On-Fire.
This set is purely for having Default Hydrant with Freaky Fruit again.

2111: Freaky Fruit loses a ton of potential when losing both On-Fire Hydrant and Meteor Tramp.
If you want good recovery, use the FF + PPJ set

3111: See above

1121: See below

1131: Meteor Tramp stand-alone seems to be worth it. It's Default Pac with a spike. Conservative, but seems to be effective.

IMO, 2111 shouldn't even be in the running, for the rest it's

1. 1311
2. 1121
3. 3111/2121

Tl;dr:
I would replace 2121 with 1311

Freaky does combo with PPJ as well however. The reason I suggested that set over 1131 is because of the movement options default hydrant provides. If you exclude the other sets. You see it covers multiple options.

2132 (The aggressive trap Pac)
2122 (Freaky Fruit with PPJ combos On-fire traps)
2131 (Trap Game with Hydrant movement)
2121 (Freaky Fruit with PPJ combos with Hydrant movement)

It certain match ups he may need the water from hydrant to avoid punishes, Captain Falcon Dash grabs can be edge cancelled, could throw off a Diddy hoohah just enough to DI away. It force uncomfortable movement from his opponent, camping Villager/DHD at ledge, pushed off, forced to recover against advancing Pac-man. You can also trap players into the water gush into a smash attack/PPJ.

 

[Nu~]

Freaky does combo with PPJ as well however. The reason I suggested that set over 1131 is because of the movement options default hydrant provides. If you exclude the other sets. You see it covers multiple options.

2132 (The aggressive trap Pac)
2122 (Freaky Fruit with PPJ combos On-fire traps)
2131 (Trap Game with Hydrant movement)
2121 (Freaky Fruit with PPJ combos with Hydrant movement)

It certain match ups he may need the water from hydrant to avoid punishes, Captain Falcon Dash grabs can be edge cancelled, could throw off a Diddy hoohah just enough to DI away. It force uncomfortable movement from his opponent, camping Villager/DHD at ledge, pushed off, forced to recover against advancing Pac-man. You can also trap players into the water gush into a smash attack/PPJ.

I have even avoided an up B punish from Nairo's ZSS using the hydrant water. It really disrupts the opponent's game plan

 

[Galaxian]

My go-to Pac sets are either 1112 or 1122 depending on the MU.

Power Pac-Jump is very, very interesting in the right cases. It can snipe off the top of the stage, is a little safer than regular up-B, and of course is a good OoS. It's interesting for sure, I've been meaning to play with it some more. However if the opposing character has a spike/meteor or I benefit more from the trampoline on stage then I go with default. PPJ needs some more play though. It's good in the right hands.

On-Fire Hydrant is amazing, I literally can't use it in a custom Pac set. What you lose in disruption in terms of pushback is probably the best upside - damage. Nobody will go for that hydrant if it's on fire. Hell if they stand on the top it can KO at high enough %. Super, super good. If only Dire Hydrant KO'd, it'd be a nice option for aggresive Pac play. But man it's just awful now. I should use regular hydrant more but man On-Fire is so goddamn good.

Freaky and Lazy fruit are interesting though. My memory doesn't serve me correctly but I believe Freaky Fruit has the super looping Galaxian? That ****'s insane on shields. Use it, it eats shield, pick it back up, throw it again, it eats shields. If you run Freaky that's a better option than Key for sure. Giving up default Bonus Fruit is a little hard to do though. MU really depends.

Side-Bs are just ****. The longer side-B doesn't give you much, although maybe if you want to charge fruit WAY off stage and you want to recover without having to go to up-B. Enticing is debatable at best, but I don't think it's very good to begin with since it's slower and it slows down one of Pac's best recovery options.

tl;dr Play with PPJ. It's good when you use it right.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

I still think 1131 has its merits.
Meteor Trampoline has never been combined with Default Hydrant and Default Fruit.
This means that when you LOVE Meteor, but you aren't good or you don't like the other fruit, we don't have a set for you.
All this talk of Default Hydrant even pushed me more in the belief that this set is worth it.

While Freaky Fruit already has 2131 for your Gushing Purposes and 2122 for the PPJ.
This means that 2121 is a secondary set derived from secondary sets.

I think Meteor Trampoline is worth it on its own, just like On-Fire Hydrant.
This is because it's Default Pac with a kill move!
Our main flaw is the fact we can't kill, and a sweet and safe meteor fixes this.
While it looks a lot like Default, but with the added reward of patching our main flaw.

 

[NimbusSpark]

I still think 1131 has its merits.
Meteor Trampoline has never been combined with Default Hydrant and Default Fruit.
This means that when you LOVE Meteor, but you aren't good or you don't like the other fruit, we don't have a set for you.
All this talk of Default Hydrant even pushed me more in the belief that this set is worth it.

Honestly, my go-to Pac moveset is 1131 as well.
I'm actually more used to Bonus Fruit (not to mention it does charge quicker) than compared to others, Power Pellet is the fastest and strongest of his Side B's yet still serves as good recovery, and Fire Hydrant (Not On-Fire Hydrant!) just feels less risky to me because of its water blasts compared to fire. Dire Hydrant does sound somewhat interesting as well, although it stops me from going all nuts with hydrant flinging. Meteor Trampoline is pretty much the only special I actually changed because it bolsters Pac's already ridiculous gimping ability, thus increasing his KO abilities in which he sorta lacks in.

 

[Firedemon0]

Well the question then becomes, between 1121 and 2121 which would be better to replace with 1131. I can see the merits of default hydrant with meteor, more so when it forces an opponent off stage with you and you can trampoline for a quick kill. I could lean towards 1121 getting replaced if 2121 is still an option. PPJ is nice on its own however if you do not want your recovery stolen.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Eh, regarding the "update", I think 1122 has merits as an anti-Rosa set.
Unless somebody says that one of the other sets are better against the pummeling pillow and its mommy, I think we should still have this set.

 

[Firedemon0]

Well considering the current discussion, lets see which ones could be replaced by 1131 or 1122

2132 (The aggressive trap Pac)
2122
2131
2121 <--- Could be replaced by 1122 or 1131

3131 (The defensive zoning Pac)
3132 ("The stage is mine" Pac)
3121

1112 <----Could be replaced by 1122 because of 1132, and default trampoline is OK at best.
1132
1121 <----Could be replaced by 1131

Out of those I think that 1112 could be comfortably replaced with 1122. On Fire Hydrant is nifty, and definitely a good choice, if we consider 1122 as the Anti-Rosa set (questioning why a set would only be considered for anti Rosa personally). 1112 does not really lose anything if it is replaced by 1122. You just get better damage ability on a floaty from PPJ.

 

[BSP]

Power Pac-Jump is very, very interesting in the right cases. It can snipe off the top of the stage, is a little safer than regular up-B, and of course is a good OoS. It's interesting for sure, I've been meaning to play with it some more. However if the opposing character has a spike/meteor or I benefit more from the trampoline on stage then I go with default. PPJ needs some more play though. It's good in the right hands.


tl;dr Play with PPJ. It's good when you use it right.

My biggest concern with PPJ is that our up B is our primary option to beat shield. With PPJ, if you miss, you are getting smash attacked because you're getting launched higher, and you have absolutely nothing to cover you on your way down. With this in mind, every set with a 2 in the third slot is a big risk.

I wouldn't gloss over this fact because smart players will abuse Pac-Man's grab flaw, and PPJ skyrockets the risk : reward of our up B on the risk side if you ask me.

 

[Galaxian]

My biggest concern with PPJ is that our up B is our primary option to beat shield. With PPJ, if you miss, you are getting smash attacked because you're getting launched higher, and you have absolutely nothing to cover you on your way down.

True, so it might not be that good. I still think it's a wonderful custom though.

 

[Firedemon0]

My biggest concern with PPJ is that our up B is our primary option to beat shield. With PPJ, if you miss, you are getting smash attacked because you're getting launched higher, and you have absolutely nothing to cover you on your way down. With this in mind, every set with a 2 in the third slot is a big risk.

I wouldn't gloss over this fact because smart players will abuse Pac-Man's grab flaw, and PPJ skyrockets the risk : reward of our up B on the risk side if you ask me.

If you are using up-b to escape pressure or even apply it, there is still a trampoline that appears, albeit briefly. The extra height over first trampoline bounce also makes it feasible to get to ledge on almost all stages. That is how every other character escapes combos, there is no reason for Pac-man to be afraid to. There is risk, I agree, but that is something to keep mind.

 

[BSP]

If you are using up-b to escape pressure or even apply it, there is still a trampoline that appears, albeit briefly. The extra height over first trampoline bounce also makes it feasible to get to ledge on almost all stages. That is how every other character escapes combos, there is no reason for Pac-man to be afraid to. There is risk, I agree, but that is something to keep mind.

That extra height also gives the opponent more time to chase us down too. I would count on most characters being able to chase us down.

The problem with that ledge comparison is that everyone else retreats to the ledge to escape from a disadvantage, meaning they've already gotten hit or something. They're also most likely not in helpless while they're doing so.

Meanwhile, we need up B also for offensive pressure. We're putting ourselves into that situation from a neutral or even advantageous position, and we may have to do it frequently, or else risk grabbing / letting them get away with sitting in shield.

 

[Galaxian]

Speaking of Freaky Fruit, even if we're not, has anyone tried using Freaky Key as a edgeguard? Super ****ing solid since it's a spike. Of course it'll take 10 whole years for it to actually charge but it might be worth it as a way to cover the ledge.

EDIT:
I'd like to report that dash attack > Key spike is a thing and even though I did it against the CPU it's a very, VERY good idea.

Basically, it's like Dash attack into Uair, but instead it actually KOs and is so satisfying to land. I'll **** around with it next time I can play with customs. I've seen the light - Freaky Fruit is goddamn amazing.

I'll add onto this with some more stupid custom stuff.

Meteor Trampoline is...an odd option. It seems very good for a overly aggresive Pac-Man who can read very well off stage. The trampoline bounce itself is good for covering the ledge but it's risky. Meteor Trampoline shouldn't really be used, only if you feel confident in styling on your opponent. I'd play with it more, maybe.

Really Pac has no terrible customs aside from his side-Bs and Dire Hydrant. Why won't you KO ;_;

Again, if I end up doing customs matches, I'll play around with customs. However a good Pac set seems to either be 2112 or 1112. 1122 or 2122 if you feel like playing with PPJ.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Speaking of Freaky Fruit, even if we're not, has anyone tried using Freaky Key as a edgeguard? Super ****ing solid since it's a spike. Of course it'll take 10 whole years for it to actually charge but it might be worth it as a way to cover the ledge.

EDIT:
I'd like to report that dash attack > Key spike is a thing and even though I did it against the CPU it's a very, VERY good idea.

Basically, it's like Dash attack into Uair, but instead it actually KOs and is so satisfying to land. I'll **** around with it next time I can play with customs. I've seen the light - Freaky Fruit is goddamn amazing.

I'll add onto this with some more stupid custom stuff.

Meteor Trampoline is...an odd option. It seems very good for a overly aggresive Pac-Man who can read very well off stage. The trampoline bounce itself is good for covering the ledge but it's risky. Meteor Trampoline shouldn't really be used, only if you feel confident in styling on your opponent. I'd play with it more, maybe.

Really Pac has no terrible customs aside from his side-Bs and Dire Hydrant. Why won't you KO ;_;

Again, if I end up doing customs matches, I'll play around with customs. However a good Pac set seems to either be 2112 or 1112. 1122 or 2122 if you feel like playing with PPJ.

Yeah, I've used Key as an edgeguard option, but not in the way you are using it.

Meteor Trampoline is marvelous. gid gut.
No, but seriously, it's not just for style points (in fact, it's a super safe meteor)
It's downright a kill option when the opponent recovers low, without it, you'll have to put down hydrants and hope it'll kill instead.
Thus, Meteor increases kill potential, which is one of our main flaws.

The trap game from On-Fire Hydrant and Freaky Fruit gets completed with a Pitfall on the stage too.
You can dance the opponent around and in the trap with the Fruit and the Hydrant spouts.

And the most wonderful of it all is the OoS version.
It makes the Trampoline yellow (Thus almost Red) and the jump is lower, so you can tilt to the side and land safely.

And all this talk about how Meteor ruins your recovery.

IT. DOES. NOT.
You still have your SideB, and the Meteor Trampoline itself gives you the height of your double jump.
A big plus in the recovery department even, is that the first bounce is the highest, so you can't get your recovery stolen.

If you're that stupid anxious about your SideB aiming skills, use PPJ, but otherwise,
Meteor -> Default.

The only thing default brings is recovery and even that can be fixed by PPJ, which has merits on its own.

 

[Rashid]

I love meteor trampoline. There's just one thing I'm curious about: what do you usually follow it up with? I know Villager has it easy since he can just up smash (the first hit unearths them and links into the rest, preserving the launching power) but what does Pac-Man have? It works with default Galaxian (pops them up as it would at low %s)... but it doesn't work so well with the freaky bell (it still pops them up, but with less knockback, so it might not link as well as it normally would into the second, killing hitbox). I didn't test it with other fruit or moves.

Also, one other (funny yet impractical) thing I discovered about meteor trampoline: you know the hitbox below it anytime someone bounces on it? Weak meteors just stun grounded opponents in place, so here's a "use" for them, which is impractical: getting "bounced on" makes you drop the fruit you're currently charging. You can leave a meteor trampoline above you as an anti-air, and intentionally take the hit if you can bait them into thinking the trampoline is a safe landing option (after all, it's not red; it's not a problem). You can then run below it with the fruit charge and it should drop.
...Unlikely to have any practical use outside of doubles in the long term, though. (and even then, your partner probably has a weak attack that can do that much easier)

 

[Firedemon0]

Snip

This is a valid concern, but at the same time, if they commit to dashing to ledge to punish that option, which I think you are refering too, nothing is stopping you from dropping behind them in that situation. It is all about change ups. I wouldn't use the other trampolines either if it would miss. They are all risky for offense. On hit however PPJ launches higher, and takes them for a ride, making it safer in my opinion, but I would concede that it can be dangerous on a whiff against the likes of Rosa, Fox, or Diddy. On the defensive playstyle, Meteor is a superior option for trampoline choice because of its stage control. Offensively, PPJ I think is more effective racking damage, where Meteor is good for securing kills.

And all this talk about how Meteor ruins your recovery.

IT. DOES. NOT.
You still have your SideB, and the Meteor Trampoline itself gives you the height of your double jump.
A big plus in the recovery department even, is that the first bounce is the highest, so you can't get your recovery stolen.

It does if you are facing an opponent with the ability gimp Side B safely and easily, in those matchups I would recommend PPJ.

 

[Neutricity]

I recently went to a customs tourney and got some good matches on stream, but the only custom I used for the On-Fire Hydrant because I like it as another kill move. I would like the Lazy Fruit and Freaky Fruit but I think Pac-Man needs as much power as he can get considering that some of my matches went to time. Also when Lazy and Freaky Fruit are caped then its kind of a waste.

I may test more with Distant Power Pellet because I see it good against characters that can't go off stage well. But most of his customs is good in theory but not in practice.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

This is a valid concern, but at the same time, if they commit to dashing to ledge to punish that option, which I think you are refering too, nothing is stopping you from dropping behind them in that situation. It is all about change ups. I wouldn't use the other trampolines either if it would miss. They are all risky for offense. On hit however PPJ launches higher, and takes them for a ride, making it safer in my opinion, but I would concede that it can be dangerous on a whiff against the likes of Rosa, Fox, or Diddy. On the defensive playstyle, Meteor is a superior option for trampoline choice because of its stage control. Offensively, PPJ I think is more effective racking damage, where Meteor is good for securing kills.



It does if you are facing an opponent with the ability gimp Side B safely and easily, in those matchups I would recommend PPJ.

Bold Claim: I think that you still can get back when using Meteor.

 

[Firedemon0]

Bold Claim: I think that you still can get back when using Meteor.

Some examples, if you are recovering from bottom corner against Mario and he fireballs pellet, you are dead. Villager can go deep against Pac-man, pocket pellet and balloon trip away safely. Sheik can needle pellet or just be ballsy and bair or fair pellet. If you are recovering from up high, it is possible, but the second you go below stage level, and absolutely need side b to get to stage, you risk easier gimping. I'm not saying it impossible, but you have to factor these things in.

 

[Galaxian]

snips

How are you using Key then? I'm curious.

I never thought of it being an option for low recoveries though. I'll keep that in mind.

 

[Nu~]

How are you using Key then? I'm curious.

I never thought of it being an option for low recoveries though. I'll keep that in mind.

http://youtu.be/JOONeuSvyz4
Like this

I recently went to a customs tourney and got some good matches on stream, but the only custom I used for the On-Fire Hydrant because I like it as another kill move. I would like the Lazy Fruit and Freaky Fruit but I think Pac-Man needs as much power as he can get considering that some of my matches went to time. Also when Lazy and Freaky Fruit are caped then its kind of a waste.

I may test more with Distant Power Pellet because I see it good against characters that can't go off stage well. But most of his customs is good in theory but not in practice.

You got it all twisted man
Every custom (outside of Side B and dire hydrant) is amazing
And I'm curious how you came to the conclusion that lazy/freaky fruit lessen our kill options when really, they increase them exponentially.

I actually have a write up about this:

2132 is just silly.
You can set a trampoline, drop a hydrant behind it, then jump and throw a strawberry and laugh as your opponent tries to get past safely.
The strawberry bounces according to the height at which it was thrown. This is amazing stage control. Just remember to always go in as the strawberry is bouncing because you won't gain a lead by just watching the strawberry bounce, this is your opportunity to approach safely. Then you can catch the strawberry and use it for combos...

...OMG, the combos. They are freaking sick.

Strawberry->fair x2-> nair -> dtilt/ftilt
For when the opponent is at low percentages. A whopping 30-32%.

Strawberry ->Usmash/Dsmash/Fsmash (guaranteed at higher percentages 0_o Do I hear, safe kill confirm?!?!)
17-21% but who cares if the opponent is dead lol

Strawberry->fair x2-> hydrant drop-> fall off nair
20% and sets up your hydrant

Cherry is similar since it also has the same "pulling in" effect as the strawberry, but it doesn't pull the opponent in as much. It's much better for space control right in front of you since it bounces so erratically.

However, both can pull the opponent into the meteor trampoline which can have hilarious results. When there is a red trampoline on the stage, no one is safe. I suggest putting a hydrant right next to it to force your opponent to jump over it if they have no projectiles.

Orange is a better falco laser that travels rediculously far, while the galaxian is similar but eats more projectiles like mega man pellets and fire balls allowing for a safe approach against projectiles spammers.

The melon allows for instant hydrant launches via z drop which is insane pressure on the opponent. Constant 15% hydrants being flung at the opponent.

Now the meteor trampoline is very interesting in how safe and quick it is as a spike. The meteor trampoline is an on demand spike that claims the entire area in front of the ledge.

Fire fox? Nope!
Fox illusion? Nah, you good.
Quick attack? Sike!
Zelda/Palutena teleport? Not today!

The list goes on. This one move pretty much eliminates the opponent's ability to snap onto the ledge. This forces them to recover very high which opens then up to fruit and hydrant spam edeguarding. This even opens up new possibilities for complex traps on the ledge.
If your opponent has moves that are dangerous enough that you don't want to try and gimp them with your aerials (dark fists ganon...) then you set up a ledge trap.
Place a red trampoline near the ledge so that it can catch roll get ups(very easy due to the low jump heights of the meteor trampoline)
Then, quickly place a hydrant in front of it and stay on top of it. Make sure you have a freaky apple in your hand.

The positioning should be like this:

red trampoline==hydrant/you==ledge

This covers all options
Roll: opponent is buried by the red trampoline

Jump: opponent is hit by fsmash, dsmash, Bair, or fair.

Nuetral get up or ledge attack: Fire blast or Apple to the face.

If the opponent tries to wait out the trampoline, they still get get caught by a B reverse Apple if they try to roll. If they wait until the hydrant is gone, you can stage spike them with a bair or just dsmash once their invincibility runs out.
Oh, make sure to jump up evey now and then to prevent the hydrant from burning you.


We can even improve our old ledge trap with the meteor trampoline.
We normally use bair hydrant->trampoline to bounce the hydrant up near the ledge to cover every get up option. However, with the meteor trampoline, you can keep bouncing until the trampoline is red. The opponent can't get up while you are bouncing on the trampoline either because they will get forces up the trampoline into the hydrant. Once the trampoline is red, your opponent is forced to wait until the hydrant is gone so that they can jump over the trampoline. This is when you have your melon ready.
Once they jump, the melon will be there to meet their face.

The possibilities are endless guys.
Customs only fixed our flaws (freaky stawberry, cherry, and melon fix killing issues, and the grab flaw is irrelevant since the low tier freaky fruit can hit confirm into grabs) and enhanced our strengths (stronger traps, even better combos with stronger rush down capabilities, and more stuff to screw over opposing rush down)

And yes, I tested all of them and they work. His customs don't just help in theory, they are also insane in practice.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Some examples, if you are recovering from bottom corner against Mario and he fireballs pellet, you are dead. Villager can go deep against Pac-man, pocket pellet and balloon trip away safely. Sheik can needle pellet or just be ballsy and bair or fair pellet. If you are recovering from up high, it is possible, but the second you go below stage level, and absolutely need side b to get to stage, you risk easier gimping. I'm not saying it impossible, but you have to factor these things in.

But you have to factor in that SideB isn't a straight line up/down and that you can angle it in unpredictable ways, having to recover from the bottom down corner isn't happening much and that you'd already want to run PPJ against Derpsbewoner because he's just straight up pocketing Trampoline Traps.

How are you using Key then? I'm curious.

I never thought of it being an option for low recoveries though. I'll keep that in mind.

Pretty straightforward for me.
Stand on the ledge and meteor the poor soul grabbing the ledge.
Pac has good options of getting the opponent at the lower part of off-stage and then you can use Key as a finisher.

EDIT:
Freaky Fruit is amazing (Lazy Fruit is more @ Nu~ 's thing)
The amount of mindgames Strawberry alone brings are fantastic.
I even have a write-up a whole Freakin' () guide about it:
http://smashboards.com/threads/erratic-apple-a-small-guide-for-freaky-fruit.383826/
Under construction though

 

[Nu~]

But you have to factor in that SideB isn't a straight line up/down and that you can angle it in unpredictable ways, having to recover from the bottom down corner isn't happening much and that you'd already want to run PPJ against Derpsbewoner because he's just straight up pocketing Trampoline Traps.



Pretty straightforward for me.
Stand on the ledge and meteor the poor soul grabbing the ledge.
Pac has good options of getting the opponent at the lower part of off-stage and then you can use Key as a finisher.

EDIT:
Freaky Fruit is amazing (Lazy Fruit is more @ Nu~ 's thing)
The amount of mindgames Strawberry alone brings are fantastic.
I even have a write-up a whole Freakin' () guide about it:
http://smashboards.com/threads/erratic-apple-a-small-guide-for-freaky-fruit.383826/
Under construction though

Hey man, I love the freaky fruit too lol. I just wanted to show the Pac-Mains that lazy fruit has just as much potential (and to be that one hipster )

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Hey man, I love the freaky fruit too lol. I just wanted to show the Pac-Mains that lazy fruit has just as much potential (and to be that one hipster )

I am not questioning your knowledge on Freaky Fruit, I was more questioning my knowledge on Lazy Fruit.

 

[Nu~]

I am not questioning your knowledge on Freaky Fruit, I was more questioning my knowledge on Lazy Fruit.

Ooohh. I didn't percieve it as a question of knowledge. More of preference.
Guess I was wrong.

 

[Firedemon0]

Ok, we have 5 days left, posting these again. Based off recent discussion, so far, I present these changes.


2132 (The aggressive trap Pac)
2122
2131
2121 <--- Could be replaced by 1112

3131 (The defensive zoning Pac)
3132 ("The stage is mine" Pac)
3121

1122
1132
1121 <----Could be replaced by 1131

Basically comes down to these two slots thus far. So basically need to discuss the merits of 1121 1131 2121 and 1112. What they provide for Pac-man, and does it provide more options than the other choices.