P:M2.6 Lucas

[Flush 5]

I also enjoy the Dair, shffling with horizontal momentum covers quite a bit of distance. However, I see your point about how obvious it can be against competent players, and surely a nair crossup is more effective.
What if it were just two hits instead of three? Either one weak and one strong, or just both weak so you can follow up with downb on the ground..?

 

[Burnsy]

Are you guy talking about approaching with dair? Of course that's a bad use of the move, you can't just try to hit them with dair really, its gotta be a punish or mid combo

For that matter, "Nair crossup" isn't that fantastic as an approach either due to its meh priority compared with moves like fair, which is safer on sheild anyways.

 

[Veishi336]

One question. Has anyone considered his dtilt to be idk a free opening to punish sometimes.....idk with some characters that i do face i do a dtilt at *guesstimating* 20% and it kinda puts them in a kinda "oh i got leg swept" stun but they can like jab you almost immediately after. Anyone else has trouble with that?

 

[Burnsy]

Yea, dtilt is pretty bad to use at low percents, it doesn't do enough stun. However, at mid percents you can stun them long enough for worthwhile followups. And of course at high percents they get popped up nicely.

 

[Kally Wally]

I want to preface this post by saying that I respect Calabrel's opinion a great deal, but at the same time, I don't take anyone's word as gospel.

After reading Calabrel's post about 2.6 Dair, I downloaded his old custom build (the only version of 2.5 I could find) to remind myself of the old one. I also watched a few videos (both actual matches and combo videos) from 2.5 to see some players who are more skilled than myself.

And you know what? I agree with him, 2.5 Dair was a stronger move.

2.6 Dair has a few niche benefits, but overall, it's multihit nature holds it back. It's big benefit is that it's good against crouch canceling, but that's about it - 2.5 Dair has it beat in just about every other way. Barring some really unusual circumstances, 2.6 Dair doesn't bring anything practical to the table. It's initial hits and smaller launching hitbox will hurt it, in time.

Personally, I'd like to see 2.5 Dair come back, with an improved graphical effect (similar to what Uptilt got) and any tweaks that the PMBR sees fit.

 

[Burnsy]

If we see 2.5 dair come back, I'd like to see Lucas gain access to another anti-cc tool. I feel that the opponent's abuse of CC was a huge weakness of his game in 2.5 that was partially alleviated when he gained the ability to mix-up his cc-able aerials with one that beats it.

 

[Oracle]

the use against cc is huge. i also think 2.6 dair has many more uses mid combo by only doing a couple hits and reacting to the sdi if there is any, like shine-wl back-dair. if they sdi up out of the move thats usually a terrible place to be vs lucas

 

[Nausicaa]

A lot of people consider CC a huge deal when it comes to dealing with a lot of characters.
This isn't any different than Melee, and why things like speed and positioning of tools (maneuvering) is such a key factor in any meta-game, even top level play.

To think Lucas needs tool-adjustments to deal with CCing in a patch (3.0 or something) is borderline silly. It's GOOD that there's something people can attempt using as a counter measure to certain (or even much of) parts of Lucas in the Neutral game. He has such a solid Neutral that if there wasn't something to watch out for in the form of CCing, there would be an extensive lack of dynamics in vs Lucas matches.
He doesn't need tools, he needs you to play him accordingly in a way that works around this, uses this in the developing meta-game [Example: Baiting an opponent into trying to CC an approach and punishing them accordingly for trying to bait something from you] just like EVERY other character has to have something to work around (Lucas has to work around the opponents options as much as they have to work around his).

Play accordingly with what he has, no change is necessary.
Against everything that CC/Shield/other defensive/baiting/passive-aggressive measures would beat? Grab (or DD and punish accordingly with a Grab after they act when you don't take their bait). Against everything that would beat Grab like attacks/dodges/evading? F-Tilt (with its range/speed/etc this beats nearly everything, trading is fine too). Both can be done from any position in Neutral, passive-aggressive play, or when offensive or evading.

Don't worry about dealing with CC, you can literally nullify that as a factor in match-ups by playing accordingly. Not talking about the baiting game where it will always take a part (from your end vs their attempts as well), but in the sense that it's any form of 'advantage' against Lucas. It's silly to think so. It's a big deal, but only if you jump into **** by letting it happen.

 

[Adeveis]

On another topic the burst offense up hit is pretty useful. I haven't used it much but sometimes while pressuring someone with like n-air or whatever sometimes I LC into the burst if I feel they will do something out of shield. It's a nice little option just wanted to bring it to others attention. Also his up taunts ability to activate trip on you Is it useful?

 

[Nausicaa]

Never tried the taunt yet actually, and I don't even think the nearby Lucas-exclusive player even knows about it, since he's never mentioned or done it.
OU is beast and abuse-able. So good.

 

[Oracle]

I dont think youve played against a player who uses cc right. Yes, in theory, you can just grab, but if theyre moving around in neutral then thats just an awful option. His dash grab is slow enough to actually react to lmao

 

[Veishi336]

Does his magnet go through CC? I would think it does since it literally flips the opponent over you lol

 

[Burnsy]

He can hold magnet on people who are ccing indefinitely. I'm not sure how strong it is against the release hitbox, but if it seems like they are ccing, I'll just hold it on them until they stop, then use the release hitbox so I get a nice, predictable launch arc. If they are smart enough to sdi away while ccing, id just release it instantly and prepare for a tech chase because downward DI would probably knock them down without much airtime for juggles.

 

[Veishi336]

Ok kool. i need to keep that in mind to hold it down. My fingers feel programmed to let it go easily when i press it.

 

[Nausicaa]

Oracle, you're not limited to Dash Grab in the neutral, for one, and you have other tools to establish making them 'want' to CC (Example: things like F-Tilt which are available from the same position), read the rest of the post as you missed the point entirely and didn't get anything in context apparently. Comprehension much? haha

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

You can also chase and do a standing grab instead of dash grab... I wouldn't use dash grab following someone unless I got a hard read on a roll or spot dodge.

 

[Oracle]

i didn't read the rest of your post because its some theorycrafting nonsense. just pointing out that grab is a pretty horrible option in neutral

 

[Nausicaa]

How is 'try playing in a way that won't get you punished by CC' theory-crafting?
It's a suggestion, at closest, and grab was a single word as an example of how to attempt applying that suggestion. LOL

 

[Oracle]

well your example was that grab is an example to beat ccing, which is pretty terrible. yeah im just gonna run up to a peach in neutral and grab deifinitely no way that could go wrong. I barely get punished by ccing and never even had that much of a problem with it in 2.5 because i know how to play around it. your post is some jumbled version of 'play around ccing' and its just kind of confusing and weird. i agree that he can deal with it fine, just saying i don't like the way your post is worded.

 

[Nausicaa]

Good to know. I'll use different wording/try to be clearer.

 

[Inty17]

I've been debating whether or not to learn Project M specific tech skill for a while now. All of my DJCs are fine, since I've played enough Ness in 64, and I play mostly Fox in Melee, so that should be self-explanatory. I'm talking about things like DACUS and wavebounces. How important are those two things for Lucas's gameplay? I'm just trying to shy away from some things that take away my C stick, seeing as I usually use the C-stick for shffled Uairs around 80% of the time.

 

[Kally Wally]

DACUS is super great, Lucas slides like he's wearing a raincoat slathered in butter.

You don't need to change your controls at all to wavebounce, but if you use the C-stick, you can do a different kind, which is cool but not really necessary. Normal wavebounce is just "special move, then turn around during the first 5 frames."

 

[Burnsy]

Wavebouncing has plenty of clever uses on a micro level, but being able to DACUS on command imo is going to be more of "game winner" having consistent b-reversal execution , since it opens up a ton of ways that Lucas can combo into usmash. Of course, b-reversing has applications in the neutral game, which is critical in Smash titles.

In the end, both are critical for mastery of the character.

 

[NeonApophis]

There is no need to reassign your c-stick for Lucas (and really, I can't imagine this would ever be a good idea). The only beneficial change is to set L or R to attack so that you can DACUS easily and consistently (dash attack with c-stick and then use up and L or R to upsmash).

As a note, you can do all types of b-reverals without using the c-stick.

 

[Kally Wally]

Huh. I just tested, and sure enough, the one I was thinking of doesn't need the C-stick, just tight timing,

 

[Burnsy]

It's much less confusing to ditch the term "wavebounce" and just use "reverse b-reversal" (RBR), as that is exactly what is happens. If you only reverse your momentum once, it's just a "b-reversal".

 

[Nausicaa]

^That.
I've also been called that Brawl--style pivot a DTA (Dash Turn Around), is there a more common term with similar purpose, or IS that the term commonly used, or what?

 

[Burnsy]

If your talking about what I think you are, I've only heard that referred to as RAR (reverse aerial rush), which makes sense in Brawl, but not as much in Project M since you don't necessarily press jump to get in the air, you could also being wavedashing or jc grab/usmash/up-b after turning. RAR WD is a somewhat awkward combination of terms since you only *technically* become airborne when you wave dash.

 

[Inty17]

The only beneficial change is to set L or R to attack so that you can DACUS easily and consistently (dash attack with c-stick and then use up and L or R to upsmash).

As a note, you can do all types of b-reverals without using the c-stick.

I need those to shield and wavedash, dood. I'm not sacrificing my Melee button configuration for project M. That'll screw my Fox over TONS. This isn't Soul Calibur I'll just use down C stick up Z. That works, right?

 

[Veishi336]

I need those to shield and wavedash, dood. I'm not sacrificing my Melee button configuration for project M. That'll screw my Fox over TONS. This isn't Soul Calibur I'll just use down C stick up Z. That works, right?

the C-stick up-z is actually pretty difficult to use for DACUS......well on my part it is. That's why most people dont really recommend that. Id probably get one dacus with the cstick up z during a match outta 10 attempts.

 

[Inty17]

Lol that's why it's balls hard. But I can't sack my shoulder buttons or I'm effed.

 

[Burnsy]

Your effed either way if you're off by a single frame and get a dash grab by accident (boost grab, actually. It just doesn't get much "boost").

Just learn to do all of your shielding/airdodging/etc on a single shoulder button so you can set your unused one to attack. There is no functional reason to use both triggers when they do the same thing, WD OoS isn't that hard with 1 button, you just have to force yourself to re-learn it.

Either that or learn to adjust your right hand into a claw position for DACUS so you can use the C stick and A(ttack).

I think using grab instead of attack double, if not triples the risk of executing DACUS. I don't find it too horribly difficult to do with grab, although it's noticeably more difficult. But if you miss it just once in a serious set, that punish on dash grab is basically free for anyone except the slowest characters, and they'll probably get the opener of their choice.

 

[Veishi336]

Your effed either way if you're off by a single frame and get a dash grab by accident (boost grab, actually. It just doesn't get much "boost").

Just learn to do all of your shielding/airdodging/etc on a single shoulder button so you can set your unused one to attack. There is no functional reason to use both triggers when they do the same thing, WD OoS isn't that hard with 1 button, you just have to force yourself to re-learn it.

Either that or learn to adjust your right hand into a claw position for DACUS so you can use the C stick and A(ttack).

I think using grab instead of attack double, if not triples the risk of executing DACUS. I don't find it too horribly difficult to do with grab, although it's noticeably more difficult. But if you miss it just once in a serious set, that punish on dash grab is basically free for anyone except the slowest characters, and they'll probably get the opener of their choice.

You are soooooo right about the punish if you mess it up...they can just beat the **** outta you if you miss it. Btw Burnsy for DJC -> PKFreeze i started using Y for the DJC instead of X. I don't know why but my finger reacts faster with Y. Do you use Y alone for you DJC? What do you do in general? Any recommendations?
SideNote: I asked Calabrel via youtube the same question and he recommended i just press the attack button quicker after the DJC.

 

[Burnsy]

I normally jump with X and have to specifically use Y if I am to djc pkf with any consistency. I still prefer to use X for djc aerials because I haven't gotten around to fully adjusting yet. For now, that works well enough for me. I just dislike having 2 jump buttons because I used to use one of them for footstool.

 

[Veishi336]

Kool. im still need in practice of doing ti consistently though. Tough ish lol

 

[Nausicaa]

Everyone still needs to develop consistency with everything to do with Lucas. :D

 

[Eisen]

I have mixed feelings on 2.5 dair and bair. Each had their own uses, as do 2.6 dair and bair. I'm biased, though; most of my early days were in 2.5, thus I never got to utilize the 2.5 moves to their full potential, but... at the same time, I love his 2.6 moves. I guess I can't really give an opinion, being relatively un-knowledgable and all compared to the rest of the thread. I'm curious to see this discussion continue though. I really want to know the right answer, if there is one.

 

[Abeebo]

You pk kids and your weirdo controls. My primary (L)shoulder button for shield, the other (R)shoulder for jump, and X to grab. Ideally, I try to use shoulders for movement and face buttons for offense to keep my fingers from moving as little as possible. Old habits die hard though, so my Y is also jump. Now Z can be whatever you want. Mine is footstool. Z is a superfluous button in a good way.

Also, i've been deciding on a secondary for the longest time and lucas has been in my trial rotation due to his seemingly free-flowing feel and speed, on top of a flexible AT game. Plus his smash attacks without and (especially)with Offense Up deal INCREDIBLE amounts of damage in 1-2 hits. WOW. I can attest to 2.6 Bair being a positive change from 2.5 Bair. It's definitely one of those things that you're gradually happier to have everytime you use it since it's hard to hate when it's so good.

Quick question: Did lucas lose his ability to jump cancel his psi magnet recently? For why?

 

[Kally Wally]

You can jump out of magnet, but only after releasing it. The release hit is the one that launches anyway.

As far as I know, it's always been that way.

 

[Abeebo]

You can jump out of magnet, but only after releasing it. The release hit is the one that launches anyway.

As far as I know, it's always been that way.

AFTER releasing it? I figured the idea would be to PREVENT the finishing animation of whatever move when you jump. Not trying to sound brash, but that doesn't sound like a legitimate Jump Cancel to me. Why the need for magnet release first?