P:M 4 Stocks VS 3 Stocks.

[Remo]

An interesting thought. I awoke this morning to find a post on Xanadu from MIOM's on Tafokints about the possibility of reducing the stock count from four to three to try and help with the time constraints the Project M has been putting on multiple game tournaments. I am just curious what other Smashers here on the boards feel about this. Some people suggest to ban coaching or reduce it to in between games only. Possibly reduce hand-warmers as well. If not reduce stocks how can we reduce the time, or is there a way to do it aside from reducing recoveries and tinkering with ledge mechanics? While I am no pro it's pretty obvious the recoveries of P:M are much better in comparison to Melee (Or perhaps it's just my personal opinion.)

Thoughts? And please keep it civil. Everyone has their own opinion and should be respected good or bad.

EDIT: For those of you who want to read Tafokints post it's here MIOM|Tafokints

 

[Fortress]

I agree that PM games tend to take longer than Melee ones, and that reducing the stock count can be a serious help to TO's, and observers alike. I've even gone so far as reducing the timer in my own matches, down to five minutes (most games really only last a couple, sometimes three or four). Taking a stock off of a game can reduce the time by as much as two minutes. In a 2-1 set, that's a potential six minutes shaved off of tournament time.

Besides, this sort of thing isn't unheard of. SSB went up to 5 stocks since their games were so quickly finished (at least I think that changed at some point during SSB's long life), Melee dropped down to the traditional 4 since their games were too long, and PM is looking like it could be making the same transition some time in the future. I think it's an idea worth exploring in tournament play.

 

[Remo]

I agree that PM games tend to take longer than Melee ones, and that reducing the stock count can be a serious help to TO's, and observers alike. I've even gone so far as reducing the timer in my own matches, down to five minutes (most games really only last a couple, sometimes three or four). Taking a stock off of a game can reduce the time by as much as two minutes. In a 2-1 set, that's a potential six minutes shaved off of tournament time.

Besides, this sort of thing isn't unheard of. SSB went up to 5 stocks since their games were so quickly finished (at least I think that changed at some point during SSB's long life), Melee dropped down to the traditional 4 since their games were too long, and PM is looking like it could be making the same transition some time in the future. I think it's an idea worth exploring in tournament play.

Big House 4 will be using 3 stocks so we can see the difference.

I wonder how people feel about all sets aside from Grand Finals being best of 3?

 

[Fortress]

As opposed to best-of-five?

 

[Master WGS]

As opposed to best-of-five?

I think he means Loser's Finals and Winner's Finals will be Bo3, instead of their traditional Bo5. ONLY Grand Finals will be Bo5.

 

[Remo]

I think he means Loser's Finals and Winner's Finals will be Bo3, instead of their traditional Bo5. ONLY Grand Finals will be Bo5.

Exactly this, Sorry for not being precise on my question.

 

[Fortress]

Oh, I see. I think that's fine, I say go for it.

 

[ECHOnce]

3-stocks are definitely a time-saver, and the logic is solid. But how much time would changing WF and LF matches to Bo3's save? Sure, it could cut the set's time in half, but only for just two...that's maybe 16-ish minutes on average. The finals are all longer for a reason. Bo3's exist because we don't care to more accurately determine the better player in most cases, since they're all just gonna get eliminated in a few rounds anyhow. It's wasted time. But by the time you reach the top 3 in tourney, they've surely proved themselves as adept enough by then. And that's when everybody (after they're all eliminated lol) is watching too - Bo5s offer way more entertainment with the comeback factor (pretty much void in Bo3s...it's hard to see as much dominance or get as hyped over a 1 or 2 match comeback).

Maybe cutting Bo5's from SFs would be a better idea; it doesn't always take place, but it happens frequently enough for it to be worth mentioning. That'd be 3 Bo5's instead of 7. If any group of finals should be cut out universally in tourney rules, it should be those imo.

 

[Narpas_sword]

But if you read Tafo's statistics the player to take the third stock first won 83% of the time which is pretty major.

I hate these kind of stats.

i bet that the player who takes the 2nd stock in a 3 stock match wins 85% of the time too. why not play 1 stock then?

 

[Gust14]

Right now PM is slower than melee, for various reasons, so maybe 3 stocks is the way to go as for now. If PM is to remain as it is I'd support the 3 stocks option, but I think the final goal for PM is being tailored for a melee-like speed and 4 stocks is better suited for that meta

 

[DrinkingFood]

Some guy on FB averaged the match times for both games' Top 8 at CEO and got 3:38 average match time for Melee and 3:57 average match time for PM. 19 Seconds per match is not a difference warranting a change as significant as a stock reduction.
Granted, this is a small sample size; I'd love to see the same thing done for numerous tournaments' Top 8s, especially recent ones, comparing average match length rather than the length of the entire Top 8 without regard to time inbetween matches. If the result is anything like the difference at CEO, the solution is not a stock reduction, it's a stage list reduction for streamlined striking/counterpicking and an enforced minimum time in between matches in a set. Melee players, especially those in top 8, generally spend very little time at the stage select screen because they know where to CP against characters and the meta is more developed for solving gameplay issues without having to ask for your coach's opinion.

 

[Remo]

Some guy on FB averaged the match times for both games' Top 8 at CEO at got 3:38 average match time for Melee and 3:57 average match time for PM. 19 Seconds per match is not a difference warranting a change as significant as a stock reduction.
Granted, this is a small sample size; I'd love to see the same thing done for numerous tournaments' Top 8s, especially recent ones, comparing average match length rather than the length of the entire Top 8 without regard to time inbetween matches. If the result is anything like the difference at CEO, the solution is not a stock reduction, it's a stage list reduction for streamlined striking/counterpicking and an enforced minimum time in between matches in a set. Melee players, especially those in top 8, generally spend very little time at the stage select screen because they know where to CP against characters and the meta is more developed for solving gameplay issues without having to ask for your coach's opinion.

Most of the extra time was Coaching. WizZy especially getting coached for 3-4 minutes in between every single game.

 

[Phaiyte]

I thought coaching only in between games was already a thing. Or at least that's what I go by in fighting game tourneys. But I also think the coaching shouldn't last much more than 30s. I like the game at 4 stocks stocks personally, though. It just feels right. Something about each stock being 25% of their "life" rather than 33.3333333333%. 25 is an even number, idk. OCD number thing.

 

[Narpas_sword]

25's an odd number.

Just saying

 

[Broasty]

I've personally felt that 4 stocks has been pretty solid. Then again, who knows, 3 might be solid if given some time.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

Given Tafo's article was specifically about CEO, my advice to the community would be to stop letting Chudat make it into the Top 8 if you want things to go faster.

 

[TreK]

I'd just like to know, the 83% stat was taken from the same tourney where he claimed "pretty much every top 8 set went 2-0 and not 2-1", right ?

In any case. I believe my job as a TO is to plan ahead. If PM top 8 takes three hours, I give it three hours on my schedule. The vast majority of E-Sports take much longer than 3 minutes per game actually. Sure, PM is typically played in multi game events. Then go get yourself a second stream if your schedule can't handle three hours of PM greatness.
Where does it ever say "fighting games should take two hours to complete a top 8, no more, no less" ? That is a stupid norm and I'm not going to compromise viewer experience or player experience to conform to it.

 

[CyberZixx]

I don't like that BH4 is gonna be 3 stocks. Interesting idea to test I don't think PM needs it. As stated already CEO only took forever because of all the downtime inbetween matches. A rule about that should be in place, not a stock change.

 

[Remo]

I don't like that BH4 is gonna be 3 stocks. Interesting idea to test I don't think PM needs it. As stated already CEO only took forever because of all the downtime inbetween matches. A rule about that should be in place, not a stock change.

At the very least we can see if 3 stocks will even be viable.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Any amount of stocks is viable, I don't think you quite know what viable means.

 

[PMS | Tink-er]

A stock reduction seems like a silly way to handicap an underdeveloped meta. Things would go much smoother if character and stage counterpick info were more available and agreed upon like melee, but this will come as the meta develops. Fast, developed characters still plays fast, developed games.

 

[Remo]

P:M still has a ton of time to develope the meta-game Melee has that is for sure.

 

[Deleted member]

melee has been going over time for tournaments for literally over a decade.

if saving time is such a big deal, let's see them cut melee down to 3 stock.

cause we all know it's never gonna happen.

 

[Master WGS]

if saving time is such a big deal, let's see them cut melee down to 3 stock.

I have been begging for this for said decade.

 

[MACKU]

I think ledge stalling and poor tournament officiating/operation is a bigger contributor to "long" sets than the stock count.

 

[NWRL]

With the average PM match taking 20 seconds more than Melee, there's absolutely no reason to make this change aside from appeasing Melee players.

This is just like 1 stock Brawl, it's a change that is done for spectators/TOs instead of the players.

 

[trash?]

pretty much all the points I'd want to make, D1 and friends make here. nearly every time issue comes down to the fact that TOs let people spend huge amounts of time between and before each game, and it'd be better to not host so many events when you're a small-staffed crew than to try and change the game to suit your schedule

put it this way: if you were doing an all-smash tournament, you'd either have 8 different things to take care of, or 4. which of these sounds better to handle with 5 staff members

(and like I mentioned in the BH4 thread: if it's really a problem, it should be one dealt internally with the PMBR, not something forced by TOs)

 

[Master WGS]

pretty much all the points I'd want to make, D1 and friends make here. nearly every time issue comes down to the fact that TOs let people spend huge amounts of time between and before each game, and it'd be better to not host so many events when you're a small-staffed crew than to try and change the game to suit your schedule

I don't think anyone's arguing that this isn't also a problem. In fact, despite me thinking PM (AND Melee) need to have stock/time reductions I'd be willing to concede that bad TOs contribute more wasted time than lengthy matches.

But you can't regulate TOs. Bad TOs will always be bad TOs so long as people attend their tournaments. If this problem is already present in the most major of tournaments we as a community host, that ship has sailed. Until hosts step up and run tournaments properly, and attendees step up and go "I'm not giving this garbage TO my attendance until he gets his stuff together," this will never improve.

Meanwhile, changing the rules is a concrete change that shortens sets regardless of how bad the TO is. And, again, even when tournaments are run perfectly smoothly, someone somewhere can make a single match go to the 8-minute timer. That's insane. No fighting game match should EVER take that long, especially if the norm is best of 3 and double elimination. Saying 8 minutes was an okay length for a match was the greatest lie the devil ever told.

Also, expert logic on the video's part. Let's tell the community to adapt, except when they want to adapt our archaic ruleset that has been flawed from the start.

 

[Saito]

People get coaches?

****. I didn't even know that was a thing.

 

[PMS | Tink-er]

I thought that just meant yer friend givin you an info dump on a character after you get dumpstered

 

[Spice]

Glad to see the majority (currently at least) believes it should remain 4 stocks. Personally I think one of the main reasons tournaments are taking so long is just because these games are getting so much support (more entrants in general to tournaments), and people are taking so long to choose maps/do warm-ups.

I have no idea if this would work out, but I think a tournament mode on P:M would be cool, where once both characters are chosen there is a 30 second match on FD/Battlefield where people have the chance to warm up and do button checks. Then back to the map screen, where there is a 1:00 timer for choosing maps or something like that. A similar timer after each match for counterpicks and stuff. Not sure how feasible this would be, but some system like this could potentially help.

I feel like those are what is eating up the time though, not the length of the matches. And P:M having matches that are maybe on average 1-2 minutes longer than the average Melee match isn't necessarily a bad thing since it is not often just due to camping. P:M is just a different style of game than Melee, even though it is very similar.

 

[Star ☆]

To reiterate what people have said;

The excess time that Project M takes is so minute that it shouldn't warrant a stock reduction; Melee goes overtime quite frequently as well and if they aren't willing to reduce their stock count then we shouldn't have to either. People just need to get to the games quickly, avoid interruptions and prioritise tourney games/money matches over friendlies.

 

[Fortress]

People just need to get to the games quickly, avoid interruptions and prioritise tourney games/money matches over friendlies.

TO's can begin to DQ left and right, but getting people to quickly report their games and play them out isn't exactly something that's easy to enforce. Plus, there are always going to be a couple of jackasses who are playing friendlies on a main setup.

 

[Raccoon Chuck]

I was just about to vote 3 stocks for experimentation, but I need to agree that the main reason would need to be larger entrant statistics. Really, Project M is outpacing Brawl in certain tourneys now, and TO's still seem to keep it as a side event in the levels of preparations taken when accommodating for the fact. Project M may take it's sweet time for updates(it should) but it's public interest has spiked regardless of Smash 4 hype etc.

Edit: Yeah, and outside of an lack of preperation; Fortress is right. Some people can be terrible with reports for the bracket.

 

[Star ☆]

TO's can begin to DQ left and right, but getting people to quickly report their games and play them out isn't exactly something that's easy to enforce. Plus, there are always going to be a couple of *******es who are playing friendlies on a main setup.

To be fair, this concept is also true to Melee.

 

[Fortress]

My balance that I'm running is 3 stocks until Loser's, Winner's, and Grand Finals. That way people can have ever-so-slightly lengthier games and not complain about 'missing comebacks' or something that's totally not real. Nobody's going to care about the round 1 and 2 games where the loser is nearly always free.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I think the concept of 3 stocks isn't good for PM because people already have only rudimentary MU experience, and the taking time to adapt away will make the player win who prepared for that specific MU and not the one who is generally better...
Ban coaching instead (its about you vs opponent not anyone else) and introduce that CEO style countdown for counterpicking and soul searching, it makes up so much more of the time together. Literally, 40% of a PM set is not the game but either counterpicking or waiting to stall out momentum.

 

[kidd_guez]

I read the melee it on me article and most of this thread and I understand shortening the allowed time for hand warmer and stage picks and the coaching which is fine but I think the more important reason PM ran late at CEO is because the games before it went over time lol. How can a competition that starts late also end early that wouldn't be fair

 

[Raijinken]

Reduce the time limit to 2 minutes, leave it at 4 stocks, see what happens.

But more seriously, remove intermission coaching, the players should be the ones doing the planning and thinking. Coaches can coach on their own time.

 

[Remo]

Reduce the time limit to 2 minutes, leave it at 4 stocks, see what happens.

But more seriously, remove intermission coaching, the players should be the ones doing the planning and thinking. Coaches can coach on their own time.

My thoughts.