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Optimizing Stage Selection

Avro-Arrow

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 24, 2014
Messages
478
Location
Ottawa
Not to mention Fox can actually do a bit of lasering on that stage. Keep him honest and take him to a small stage, or a medium-sized one where he can't safely laser camp.

Actually, how do you guys feel about DL? I know it contradicts what I just said, but I don't think it would be that bad for y'all since it limits Fox's KO power but doesn't really change MK's. And it gives a lot of room for tech chases.
 

GuruKid

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 14, 2007
Messages
875
Location
Brooklyn, NY
Yeah I feel DL is overall good, and another good option against spacies. Lazer camping can be annoying to deal with but you have tech chasing for days, and the platforms offer great maneuverability for you. The wider blastzones offer MK more survivability and aren't as limiting to his KO potential as much as other characters because again your kills will usually come off gimps/edgeguards rather than flat-out blastzone kills.
 
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_Chrome

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 23, 2014
Messages
548
Location
Ottawa, Ontario
With that in mind, how would Delfino's Secret be for us? Probably not as good as Dreamland since it's sort of like a larger FD... but it can't be worse than PS2 for us.
 

Avro-Arrow

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 24, 2014
Messages
478
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I think DL is a MU dependent stage for MK. Against someone whose recovery isn't all that edge guardable (i.e. Sonic, Samus, Pika, ZSS for a lot of people) DL isn't all that good since MK'd get a severe case of Marthritis (hard to land bair when opponent knows you're fishing, at higher percents uthrow DC doesn't work great, and nair doesn't have enough KB to kill outside edge guards). Overall, I think the platforms would enable Fox more advantages than MK (escape avenues after laser camping, helps him stay unpredictable which is how he he beats MK's range in neutral), although I'm no MK main so... take with a grain of salt.

As for Delfino's, Fox has a really tough time killing off of uthrow --> uair and usmash and good DI on bair and nair saves you from being killed off the side. As for the platform layout, that's up to you. When the plats are in the centre, it makes laser camping harder and gives you nice tech chase opportunities. When they're on the side, they go high up, so this means Fox can run away on them, but it also means you can use Mach Tornado to recover and escape high. Because the sides have walls, you could say Fox's recovery gets a buff, but it really shouldn't come to him getting his recovery off in the first place (optimally) since the edge guards are so hilariously free :D.
 

Kulprit

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 19, 2014
Messages
72
Location
Omaha, NE
Can I just start a circlejerk for why Bowser's Castle (Alt.) is an amazing stage for Meta Knight?

- It's a medium stage with large side blastzones, which is perfect for Meta Knight to kill decently early and being able to mix up his recovery well enough. He can use his jumps to go offstage to edgeguard easily, so the large blastzones don't hinder his offstage game too much.

- The ceiling is medium, so you can get kills off the top a decent amount of the time (although I just prefer edgeguarding people off the sides the majority of the time. At least the option to kill off the top is still there.)

- The platforms are high enough to where Meta Knight can string Up-Airs for a while and still be in an advantageous position. Most characters has to commit to going up to the platforms (using a full hop most of the time), but MK doesn't have this problem as he can just use 1 of his jumps to take full advantage of the platforms (for comboing), 2 jumps to land on them.

- The quasi-flat stage allows for MK to set up tech chases really well and allows for MK to start his vertical combos by using d-tilt/upsmash without having to worry that the opponent land on the platforms above.

I feel like I'm missing something else, but I'm not sure. What are your guys' thoughts on the stage? Is it legal in your scenes? Do you have experience on the stage yourself?

http://www.twitch.tv/fsink/v/28470708 At 3:05:00, I lose Game 1 aganst Camtwo (#1 on our PR) on GHZ and I counterpick him to Bowser's. Check out the gameplay and see what you think of the stage.
 

_Chrome

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 23, 2014
Messages
548
Location
Ottawa, Ontario
Yes, Alt Bowser's Castle (ABC) is incredibly good for MK. It serves as a smaller FD with the added bonus of the platforms helping in MK's recovery with (especially with the Mach Tornado) and in general evasion. The height of the platforms are also really good for extending his combos, no doubt! I love the stage personally and hope for it to become a fair starter in our scene without me having to gentleman it or select it in crew battles.

A couple pointers for the MU:

1) You should use survival DI against Squirtle's uair, fair, and bair especially. You were getting knocked around way too much by his moves when you could have escaped his combos and lived longer.

2) You should've gone for a grab at a point. On GHZ and ABC he has destructive grab capabilities and almost unrivaled tech chasing abilities. Squirtle's tech roll is also the worst in the game. MK's tech chase on Squirtle is what makes the MU 50/50 rather than favourable for Sqiurtle in my opinion. If you don't know how to already I suggest using boost grabs and dash-attack-canceled grabs to help out with this.

You kept it pretty close in both of the games and I definitely think you have the potential to beat the #1 in your region. Work on those little things and you'll see big improvement!
 

Kulprit

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 19, 2014
Messages
72
Location
Omaha, NE
Yes, Alt Bowser's Castle (ABC) is incredibly good for MK. It serves as a smaller FD with the added bonus of the platforms helping in MK's recovery with (especially with the Mach Tornado) and in general evasion. The height of the platforms are also really good for extending his combos, no doubt! I love the stage personally and hope for it to become a fair starter in our scene without me having to gentleman it or select it in crew battles.

A couple pointers for the MU:

1) You should use survival DI against Squirtle's uair, fair, and bair especially. You were getting knocked around way too much by his moves when you could have escaped his combos and lived longer.

2) You should've gone for a grab at a point. On GHZ and ABC he has destructive grab capabilities and almost unrivaled tech chasing abilities. Squirtle's tech roll is also the worst in the game. MK's tech chase on Squirtle is what makes the MU 50/50 rather than favourable for Sqiurtle in my opinion. If you don't know how to already I suggest using boost grabs and dash-attack-canceled grabs to help out with this.

You kept it pretty close in both of the games and I definitely think you have the potential to beat the #1 in your region. Work on those little things and you'll see big improvement!
1. One of the really tricky things about playing him is the way he sets up his moves for DI traps. He'll Up-Air until you DI out and then fair, which is what caught me the most. he does that to mostly everyone in the state, and this was my first time actually playing against him vs MK, so I definitely showed some potential for it being my first time.

2. I think my main problem against him was that I was playing TOO safe by just staying back and safely throwing out d-tilts to stuff his approach. Would you suggest that I dash-dance more to bait the approach and then grab him? I also totally forgot that he has the worst tech roll in the game, thanks for reminding me! Later in the tourney, I played a Lucario and abused the fact that he has a bad tech roll, so I'll definitely keep that in the back of my head next time I play against Squirtle. Also, I don't know how to boost grab or dash attack cancelled grab. Is there any tutorials showing how that you would suggest?

Thanks for the advice btw!
 

Avro-Arrow

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 24, 2014
Messages
478
Location
Ottawa
I find ABC's platform height good as well since one of MK's weaknesses is that he doesn't have high reaching jumps, and can only get high by using two or three midair jumps which is slower than one double jump. The height of ABC's plats levels the playing field in the sense that they can't use it much for moving around the stage any better than you can.

For JC and boost grab tutorials, check out the SSBM Tutorials channel on YouTube.

Both of them are the same really, except boost uses the A button and JC uses X, Y, or Tap jump. Imagine rolling your fingers on a table, one after the other, basically at the same time. If you're a frame data person, interrupt the jump squat in three frames (since MK's jumpsquat is IIRC four frames) for a JC grab and within three frames for the dash attack (IIRC). JC grab's utility is easier to see than boost grab since the lag reduction and sliding distance is visible, but boost grab is sick too. For example, in Melee, Sheik's dash grab range triples with using boost grab versus the normal dash grab. MK gets a similar bonus from his. :b:
 

Kulprit

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 19, 2014
Messages
72
Location
Omaha, NE
I find ABC's platform height good as well since one of MK's weaknesses is that he doesn't have high reaching jumps, and can only get high by using two or three midair jumps which is slower than one double jump. The height of ABC's plats levels the playing field in the sense that they can't use it much for moving around the stage any better than you can.

For JC and boost grab tutorials, check out the SSBM Tutorials channel on YouTube.

Both of them are the same really, except boost uses the A button and JC uses X, Y, or Tap jump. Imagine rolling your fingers on a table, one after the other, basically at the same time. If you're a frame data person, interrupt the jump squat in three frames (since MK's jumpsquat is IIRC four frames) for a JC grab and within three frames for the dash attack (IIRC). JC grab's utility is easier to see than boost grab since the lag reduction and sliding distance is visible, but boost grab is sick too. For example, in Melee, Sheik's dash grab range triples with using boost grab versus the normal dash grab. MK gets a similar bonus from his. :b:
Is Dash-Attack Cancelled grab different from Jump-Cancel Grab? Because JC grab is what I primarily use.
 

_Chrome

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 23, 2014
Messages
548
Location
Ottawa, Ontario
Dash-attack-canceled grabs give you the dash grab animation, but increasing the grab range by quote a bit. JC grabs make it less punishable. I use them both in different situations.
 

Kulprit

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 19, 2014
Messages
72
Location
Omaha, NE
Just watched the video which made it look really, and boost grab seems pretty good in some situations but not all. So use boost grab when you want the extra range and use JC grab when you don't want to get punished?
 

_Chrome

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 23, 2014
Messages
548
Location
Ottawa, Ontario
Precisely. Boost grab is good when you need to reach or are confident it'll work, and JC grabs allow you to dash away if you miss.
 

Kulprit

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 19, 2014
Messages
72
Location
Omaha, NE
Sweet, this'll definitely help me with my tech chasing when their rolls are longer, ie: Falco and the like.
 

Avro-Arrow

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 24, 2014
Messages
478
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Ottawa
Yeah, I use jc when I know I don't need the added range and boost otherwise. Or if I don't want to go punished. It's worth noting that for some characters boost grabbing isn't worth it, like ZSS or Sonic.
 

GuruKid

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 14, 2007
Messages
875
Location
Brooklyn, NY
I actually did not know other regions were using alt Bowser's Castle as a legal stage. Here in NYC it's banned (and we've admittedly never really discussed using it). I've honestly only played on it a handful of times myself.

Yeah MK's boost grab is pretty useful, but I personally have a difficult time getting it consistently so I don't use it often (same with his DACUS). Should definitely get around to practicing those techniques.
 

CORY

wut
BRoomer
Joined
Dec 2, 2001
Messages
15,730
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dallas area
Well, technically, everyone has a dacus, but it's your dash attack and usmash that determines how good it is.

If you have a good boost grab, you probably have at least a decent dacus, unless your usmash has some momentum locking thing in its physics to keep you from sliding.
 

Taytertot

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 7, 2014
Messages
658
Location
Seattle, WA
i bet itd be a pretty good dacus since the initial burst movement from MK's dash attack is pretty quick (which i imagine would be one of the factors in determining dacus distance. another is probably the characters traction.) im terrible at dacus though cause my hands are kinda slow.
 
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