Optimizing Link

[SAUS]

So low damage non-true CC does, indeed, prevent Shiek from grabbing you. I don't know the exact % where Shiek can just ASDI down the jab and instantly land, but you are at least safe for the very low numbers.

It's interesting because you want to use jab at super low damage but then that becomes a very dangerous option after a little while. Down smash is a good step up from that since it gets the knock down at 25% with the weakest hit. It's just interesting that the transition to a harder hitting move is not only a good idea, it is also very bad if you don't stop jabbing (unless you space super well).

Definitely a very nuanced thing for Link. I will try to find out the % that ASDI down works against jab.

EDIT:
So the % where Shiek can ASDI down and punish Link's jab with grab is actually at 32%. That is quite high, making it a solid option (you can jab if Shiek is 31% or lower). It also overlaps with the weak d-smash hitbox knock down percent (25%), so you are covered at any percent if you do it right.

One thing to look out for is double jabbing when Shiek is at around 25+%, since I think she may be able to ASDI down the second jab and then grab you.

Lots of things to think about for those percent ranges. Having all the knowledge together is good though. I think Peach is the same weight as Shiek as well, so she would have the same numbers for CC punishes against jab.

 

[garotis]

Is fair to grab guaranteed on Marth at low percent? I've done it so many times and can't recall a Marth doing anything about it. Can they buffer a spotdodge after the fair to avoid the grab?

 

[SAUS]

Is fair to grab guaranteed on Marth at low percent? I've done it so many times and can't recall a Marth doing anything about it. Can they buffer a spotdodge after the fair to avoid the grab?

It is DI dependent. If he lands too early, he will be able to do stuff. This can happen if they DI down / CC it or whatever. You have to react. If you hit him out of the air, you can almost always grab. Just beware if there is enough time to jump before he lands.

However, if you mixup your followup, grab might become a viable option again. Just make sure you get used to when it works and when it doesn't. It's easy to just throw out there, but once people know how to avoid it and you keep doing it, you get a lot of missed grabs.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

Is fair to grab guaranteed on Marth at low percent? I've done it so many times and can't recall a Marth doing anything about it. Can they buffer a spotdodge after the fair to avoid the grab?

If it works it works. It doesn't matter what frame data says as long as your opponent isnt doing anything about it.

 

[garotis]

If it works it works. It doesn't matter what frame data says as long as your opponent isnt doing anything about it.

I disagree. It is important to know whether a combo is guaranteed or situational. This thread's title is "Optimizing Link," which one would assume involves analyzing the viability of specific options, regardless of anecdotes.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

I disagree. It is important to know whether a combo is guaranteed or situational. This thread's title is "Optimizing Link," which one would assume involves analyzing the viability of specific options, regardless of anecdotes.

When you optimize you need to consider all parameters that might influence the outcome, frame data is not the only factor.

I think it's a viable option, but I also don't think it is a true combo. Certainly something you should consider to have in your toolbox. It isn't guaranteed but it certainly isn't situational either.

You can do something similar with weak hit nair -> grab. I find it less useful vs marth as you need the extra range to get in on him. But it's certainly not bad against him as FJ nair tend to be better on shield(more mixups) than a fair.

 

[garotis]

When you optimize you need to consider all parameters that might influence the outcome, frame data is not the only factor.

Right, like discussing whether or not something is guaranteed. And no one here is arguing against the second part of your sentence, so I don't know who you're responding to.

I think it's a viable option, but I also don't think it is a true combo. Certainly something you should consider to have in your toolbox. It isn't guaranteed but it certainly isn't situational either.

If it is DI dependent, as Saus has said, then it is indeed situational.

 

[ChainArmour712]

So, what I'm curious to discuss is Link"s Dair. It is Link's single most powerful move (after UpB) and comes out quick for a Link air attack (11 frames) However, it gets beaten out by a lot of other characters' moves for some reason. and it's tricky to land.

I've mained Link for a while, but really put some training into him this week and realized that using the C-stick for Dair really helps to position the move. That seems like an obvious thing to say, but I hadn't seen the significance of it before. It's been the difference between me landing Dair and missing it several times.

Considering its speed and power, I think that we as Link mains need to discuss how to use Dair better and when to use it. I'm curious as to what Saus has to say, as I've noticed that he doesn't seem to go for Dair often (except to punish blatant mistakes by opponents). I want to discuss the following:

-What is the best situation and lead-in for Dair, in order for it to connect?

-When you go for a Dair, how do you position Link to get it to hit?

-In what situations can we potentially use Dair more (instead of Nair or other moves) against opponents at kill percentage?

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

If it is DI dependent, as Saus has said, then it is indeed situational.

Lets throw away the words guaranteed and situational as I think those are bad to describe this, I think you would disagree on what exactly is situational with what I got in mind. To me it has always been how often you can use something during a match.

What I mean is that it is viable and useful, even though it doesn't always connect. You can use it quite a few times during a set without the opponent getting used to it and the reward is big enough when you land it so that the risk is okay for it.

So, what I'm curious to discuss is Link"s Dair. It is Link's single most powerful move (after UpB) and comes out quick for a Link air attack (11 frames) However, it gets beaten out by a lot of other characters' moves for some reason. and it's tricky to land.

I've mained Link for a while, but really put some training into him this week and realized that using the C-stick for Dair really helps to position the move. That seems like an obvious thing to say, but I hadn't seen the significance of it before. It's been the difference between me landing Dair and missing it several times.

Considering its speed and power, I think that we as Link mains need to discuss how to use Dair better and when to use it. I'm curious as to what Saus has to say, as I've noticed that he doesn't seem to go for Dair often (except to punish blatant mistakes by opponents). I want to discuss the following:

-What is the best situation and lead-in for Dair, in order for it to connect?

-When you go for a Dair, how do you position Link to get it to hit?

-In what situations can we potentially use Dair more (instead of Nair or other moves) against opponents at kill percentage?

I tend to try, bomb > FJ dair, a lot. You can get it off by reaction but it is a bit tricky. What you need to do is start dashing towards and jumping on instinctively and instantaneously after throwing the bomb and then react to whether the bomb hits or not to see if you should dair. This means that you will be airborn FJ towards the opponent when you find out you can't land the dair and here you need to do something else like DJ backwards and FF fair. If they do get hit by the bomb though you just fly at full speed towards them and input the dair as early as you can after your jump frames, it should connect if they don't DI away on the bomb blast. You can do the same thing with point blank rang if you'd prefer that.

I also go for a lot of tech chases on platforms to get dairs. This is great as you can just fly up there and cover all options but get up attack if you fly correctly. Aim towards the center and then try to react to the roll to try to float with your dair there.

You can utilt to dair on some characters around 80-90%.

You got weak hit uair -> dair around 110%.

You also got uthrow to dair against spacies and CF around 110%.

Floaties can be dthrown to dair, not sure of percentages here or if its a true combo but it connects a lot.

Some characters with bad recovery options like shiek can be daired after they land on stage wth their UpB. You simple hold the ledge to force them to go on stage and react to when they land there to ledgehop dair them.

Another edgeguard option I like to do a lot vs CF and ganon is to dtilt them just as their legs flip around and is above stage height. If you don't meteor them with it it will send them into a perfect arc for you to jump up and dair them. Extremely satisfying. It can be used against other characters as well but in those cases I find that there are other options which are safer in those particular matchups.

I don't think you should replace nairs with dairs at all. they serve totally different purposes. Nair is for neutral game and off stage edguards. The dair should IMO very rarely be thrown out in neutral. There are lots of setups for dairs you should instead learn to see them and use them.

As for positioning, I just fly in there, in the situations where I use it I don't need to space it.

 

[BombChu]

Is Dair a viable option to hit a Fox/Falco out of their up-b recovery?

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

No, it rarely kills, you need to read their angle and you got lots of other options thats better. Heres a quick list of options you can use instead. I assume they are below the stages main platform.

SH offstage and do the nair as quickly as possible, don't FF and IASA it as quickly as possible then DJ and do another nair as it hits. This one is best when they are getting in from max range at a 45 degree angle, it is just out for so damn long and there is no way for them to get to the ledge.

When they are very far below, but not straight below or under the stage you also want to SH offstage and nair. But in this case you want to time an FF withe the nair to get really low. Link actually can edgeguard really low thanks to his stupid nair if you do it like this.

If they are straight under or below the stage just slightly past the ledge you probably want to run off bair(?!). You also might want to get off a FF between the kicks so that you can get the hitbox of the second kick much lower. This option can be teched if you don't hit them reversed and that will turn the edgeguard. People usually don't catch on to this too quick, but once they do the option is not that great anymore. Still something to consider at times. If they are in this position you can also try to go for UpB spike if you play NTSC.

Worst case scenario in all of these is that you trade in which case you do another nair and just attack them again with it, just nair and fall straight away, might need to FF last part to get it in.

If they are very far past the ledge inunder the stage you just grab the ledge and roll up.

 

[SAUS]

Is Dair a viable option to hit a Fox/Falco out of their up-b recovery?

That is like a super hard option to hit with. If they come in from too far sideways, you will get hit and they won't. The issue with dair here is that it doesn't beat spacies up-b. You would have to land it very precisely on top of them, but that requires know almost exactly what angle they will choose. You are better off trying to actually cover all their options than trying to get a dair.

On top of this, dair will make it easier for them to recover if it does not kill them. This means they need to be at higher damage and also that your other options are better at lower damage. However, once they are at higher damage (something like a little above 100 you can kill them consistently with the dair), your other options will also just outright kill them. Nairing them back off when they are at that damage will kill them (at most you will have to also steal the ledge from them).

Dair is a good kill move. TBH I feel like there are good places to use it. It is something I test out in friendlies sometimes and it usually does decently, but I still haven't found spots I like to use it outside of guaranteed followups out of combos.

Some things to note about it are:
It is like a nair where it gets weaker after the initial hitboxes (makes a huge difference as you always want the strong hit).
It sends at an upward angle away from Link (I think it is 65 degrees up from horizontal and they will go right if you hit them from the left and left if you hit them from the right). This is a huge deal when you dair them from a side of the stage (such as punishing Shiek recovery). You should hit them so they go off stage again so that inward DI sends them straight up and they die or they go waaay off stage again, possible dying outright.

As for the fair -> grab stuff. I think maybe what Lootic is getting at is that it IS optimal to use this tool, even when it isn't guaranteed. It is a powerful mixup and a huge waste to not use it. The value of having your opponent fear your grab shouldn't be underestimated. It basically forces spot dodges and jumping - both of which lead to huge openings and opportunities for you.

 

[squirrels4ev]

So something that I've seen talked around but never said outright on this board or anywhere really is the benefit of walking with Link instead of running because Link's walk speed is almost as good as his run speed. I guess I've seen it for a long time but never noticed what I was seeing in VODs because the speeds are so similar.

-Walk>turnaround dsmash is much more consistent and easy to do than dashdance>pivot dsmash. Walk>dsmash is also faster than run/dashdance>crouch>dsmash. It's also easier to position Dsmash for the 17% sweetspot when downthrow techchasing spacies.
-Downthrow>buffered max speed walk forward>turnaround charge dsmash against Fox covers tech in place, missed tech, and tech away (away from where link was initially facing before the turnaround). In my experience, a lot of space animals want to either tech in place shine or tech away and reset neutral. I'm not sure if you can cover falco's tech away and his tech in place with a turnaround dsmash, but I think you can still buffer the walk forward and turn around and then react to falco's tech option either with downsmash against tech in place or missed tech (can also jab reset missed tech from here) or with turnaround dsmash against tech away (away from the original direction Link was facing during the throw).
-Hylian Shield is also active during walk which can be helpful in the Falco matchup for lasers sometimes, and will always block Sheik's standing needles and Samus's charge shots.
-When walking, we have access to all of our grounded hitboxes besides dash attack, and dash attack is not safe in neutral, although it does combo into to upB kills on spacies on FD and maybe also on dreamland and high/no platform FoD around 80-100%. Dash attack is typically reserved for following up on uthrow on spacies DIing away around 50%, and it's easy enough to simply not buffer walk out of upthrow.
-Standing grab also recovers faster than running grab, which is another plus for walking over running.
-One thing you can do out of a run but not out of a walk (correct me if I'm mistaken) is grab ledge with slideoff upB.
-Walk is probably a good way to set up ftilt edgeguard against ganondorf and captain falcon, and to position yourself close to the edge to jab a spacie out of its sideB recovery in situations where you don't have time to jump, wavedash, or run and stop into place,

If anyone has other ideas about situations where either walking or running is better than the other let us know.

No-impact land is actually really easy to do on Battlefield and Dreamland side platforms and is a nice movement option to have up your sleeve. It's great for techchasing, mostly just with grab and up-B. It can be a good mixup instead of chasing with upairs to suddenly send someone off the side with up-B. It can also prevent someone from escaping a kill setup like upthrow>downair or downthrow>upB by teching on a platform if you just NIL>regrab to reset the kill setup. Only this time they don't have a platform above them to tech on to avoid the kill move.

 

[squirrels4ev]

I practiced the sheik matchup with a friend of mine today and we play somewhat often so he knows how to edgeguard the hookshot pretty well. Something I decided to try out today was option selecting a walltech during the hookshot pull by quickly hard pressing L and releasing it immediately after pulling in the hookshot while recovering in case he messes up and gets a reverse hit on something and it worked when he finally missed one. I'm not 100% sure if it actually buffered the tech or if I got a lucky timing but I know that techs can be buffered during up-Bs while your character is in the animation of his/her up-B, so they can probably be buffered during the frames where Link is pulling himself towards his hookshot because he is inactionable at that time. If you hold L/R for too long though or are too slow you can end up getting an accidental roll though. Food for thought against certain edgeguards. and if they hit you offstage you're dead anyways so may as well buffer the walltech in case they hit you the suboptimal direction.

 

[SAUS]

I practiced the sheik matchup with a friend of mine today and we play somewhat often so he knows how to edgeguard the hookshot pretty well. Something I decided to try out today was option selecting a walltech during the hookshot pull by quickly hard pressing L and releasing it immediately after pulling in the hookshot while recovering in case he messes up and gets a reverse hit on something and it worked when he finally missed one. I'm not 100% sure if it actually buffered the tech or if I got a lucky timing but I know that techs can be buffered during up-Bs while your character is in the animation of his/her up-B, so they can probably be buffered during the frames where Link is pulling himself towards his hookshot because he is inactionable at that time. If you hold L/R for too long though or are too slow you can end up getting an accidental roll though. Food for thought against certain edgeguards. and if they hit you offstage you're dead anyways so may as well buffer the walltech in case they hit you the suboptimal direction.

I do this all the time - so much so that I don't even think about it. It is definitely something you should be doing. It is particularly powerful in the cases where you save your jump and hook shot first. You can double jump after the tech and usually make it onto the stage (air dodge if necessary). It all happens so quick, so you are likely to get out of the edge guard.

 

[Bravo_10]

That is like a super hard option to hit with. If they come in from too far sideways, you will get hit and they won't. The issue with dair here is that it doesn't beat spacies up-b. You would have to land it very precisely on top of them, but that requires know almost exactly what angle they will choose. You are better off trying to actually cover all their options than trying to get a dair.

On top of this, dair will make it easier for them to recover if it does not kill them. This means they need to be at higher damage and also that your other options are better at lower damage. However, once they are at higher damage (something like a little above 100 you can kill them consistently with the dair), your other options will also just outright kill them. Nairing them back off when they are at that damage will kill them (at most you will have to also steal the ledge from them).

Dair is a good kill move. TBH I feel like there are good places to use it. It is something I test out in friendlies sometimes and it usually does decently, but I still haven't found spots I like to use it outside of guaranteed followups out of combos.

Some things to note about it are:
It is like a nair where it gets weaker after the initial hitboxes (makes a huge difference as you always want the strong hit).
It sends at an upward angle away from Link (I think it is 65 degrees up from horizontal and they will go right if you hit them from the left and left if you hit them from the right). This is a huge deal when you dair them from a side of the stage (such as punishing Shiek recovery). You should hit them so they go off stage again so that inward DI sends them straight up and they die or they go waaay off stage again, possible dying outright.

As for the fair -> grab stuff. I think maybe what Lootic is getting at is that it IS optimal to use this tool, even when it isn't guaranteed. It is a powerful mixup and a huge waste to not use it. The value of having your opponent fear your grab shouldn't be underestimated. It basically forces spot dodges and jumping - both of which lead to huge openings and opportunities for you.

I know this discussion happened a long time ago, but I wanted to chime in and say that while dair doesn't beat Fox's up-B hitbox, you can use ledge invincibility if you really want to go through it. This is really only applicable in cases where Fox is doing an up-B from somewhere below the ledge, and you can react to him trying to go towards the lip of the stage. This recovery option is annoying because Fox has practically no landing lag on his up-B, so you pretty much have to punish it during the move. However if Falcon players can punish that reactively with ledge hop knee, Link can with ledge hop dair.

Also I never thought about OS'ing a tech during the actual hookshot pull in animation. Thanks guys.

 

[link7]

Question about Links Tether. Why is it that sometimes I'll use the tether to recover, but instead of snapping to the ledge, or hanging from the extended grapple, I'll go into the tumble animation and fall to my doom? It's cost me tournaments, and I'm sick of it happening unexpectedly.

 

[SAUS]

Question about Links Tether. Why is it that sometimes I'll use the tether to recover, but instead of snapping to the ledge, or hanging from the extended grapple, I'll go into the tumble animation and fall to my doom? It's cost me tournaments, and I'm sick of it happening unexpectedly.

I don't know the exact formula used, but it is definitely consistent. I don't know if I can even describe the situations it breaks properly. There's a certain angle you have to fall and certain points on stages you have to hit. It is consistent that having walls or ground that the chain would have to go through breaks it causing you to go into tumble.

 

[link7]

I don't know the exact formula used, but it is definitely consistent. I don't know if I can even describe the situations it breaks properly. There's a certain angle you have to fall and certain points on stages you have to hit. It is consistent that having walls or ground that the chain would have to go through breaks it causing you to go into tumble.

I've had it happen more consistently on Yoshi's story, and last night, it happened on FD. I remember hitting the sweetspot of the ledge, so I could go for the quick tether jump.

 

[Hunybear]

I have some link theories I'd like to put out there if that's ok.
I played a Marth for the entirety of my melee carrier and the idea behind playing Marth was that you'd limit your opponents options using good movement. His moves are to lagy to throw out recklessly (especially approaching) so he'd limit the opponents options until they'd be forced to act at a disadvantage. The Moon calls this "being two places at once."
Seeing as how Link does not have good movement he's forced to control space by placing hit boxes in areas that he feel's will give the enemy a positional advantage and react to there adaptations. For example if link were facing Marth, Link on a side platform could short hop- Neutral B- fall through platform- side B. This Effectively closes those lanes of approach and limits Marths ability to act. He could clank or shield a projectile or jump away. Either of which puts link in a better position.

This concept is my basis for melee and I feel is highly exemplified by Links projectile game. I'd like to get some feed back and understand more about Link as a character.

 

[SAUS]

Some new tech for fighting Puff:
F-tilt:
The timing of it and its hit boxes are just weird enough that it can punish a puff trying to catch your jumps or slow moves with bair / fair. If there is time to start it up, it just trades well and actually kills decently early (without causing you to instantly die to rest if you miss). It might take a while to find the spots to use it, but it is mostly about the timing.

Dash Attack:
I have found that dash attack is surprisingly epic in this matchup. Puff is in the air a lot more than most characters, so dash attack's main problems (shield and CC) are much smaller problems. It also allows Link to be threatening out of dash dance (something I was worried he couldn't do in this matchup). It allows you to outspace a bair and run back for the punish (much like how fox can do it). Not only this, it even kills at around 150. Kind of stupid, but that is actually such a nice kill move for Link at this percent lmao. It's waaay easier to hit with a dash attack than most of his other moves - it's also Link's fastest move while dashing or running.

 

[Thor]

Totally random fun fact about dair: If you are on a side platform of Battlefield and Falco is below you, a fullhop dair will hit him out of his fulljump, and I'm pretty sure it cleanly beats his fullhop bair [it certainly beats his fullhop dair, and I have hit Falcos out of FH bairs multiple times. although it may require some degree of spacing that I just happen to get]. As a result, a lot of times when I am on a side platform on Battlefield I'll fullhop dair or nair since it beats Falco's FH option and you can ledge cancel on the top or side platform again to minimize risk. I can look for a video if someone wants it, but if you jump slightly before Falco and do an immediate rising dair, it'll connect.

-------------

This may be IMPORTANT: random recovery tech I did accidentally, and I have a video of it - I pulled a bomb while high up then threw a boomerang slightly above the ledge height with a smash throw (started just above the ledge), angled up, then did a double jump up+b to try to land onstage since my opponent correctly timed a ledge grab. Just before landing onstage, Link caught the boomerang, allowing me to pull up shield instantly. I am pretty sure I cancelled the catch animation with my landing, and in holding shield to buffer it, it came up instantly as a result.

I'm not sure if this is version-specific (a brief check on a smash wiki indicates it is not), but if Link can do this in all versions [or at least all NTSC versions for us North America players - sorry Lootic], we may have a way to make up+B landing onstage lagless. The setup would be of course quite obvious to the trained eye, and Link's up+B is still easily intercepted, but being able to do this consistently would go a long way toward making Link's recovery safer [especially when you consider that you can always throw boomerang at the ledge to try to clear it instead of onstage to try to keep the opponent away from ledge in the first place, as I did]. It would at least help save us from ledgehop aerials when we land onstage and force them to contest the up+b aerial hitbox.

Here's the video, with the timestamp: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUnNNhNV8yk&t=27s

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

I'm not sure if this is version-specific (a brief check on a smash wiki indicates it is not), but if Link can do this in all versions [or at least all NTSC versions for us North America players - sorry Lootic]

Checked it, possible in PAL. Will keep it in my mind and try it whenever I get the chance. Seems like if you buffer shield before you catch the rang you will chain cancels, first the rang cancels the up B lag and then the shield cancels the rang catch animation. This is true for other lagging attacks as well for example dair or zair.

This means you could actually do an even longer chain:
laggy otherwise unrewarding move > rang catch > shield > jump/grab > UpB/upsmash | random aerial

Should be a neat trick that finally makes rang catches useful.

 

[F. Stein]

This may sound weird but have you guys done many things involving NIL? Link seems to have some angles and jumps that garuntee NIL on plats for battlefiled and dreamland.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

I try to do it sometimes to get to the top platform quickly to get altitude to try to get a follow up on someone I launched very high.

 

[Waldoring]

I'm no link main, so this may be known, but you can fully cancel up b without falling off a ledge: https://gfycat.com/CornyFewAnnelid

Just do a regular edge canceled up b and hold back; the spacing is pretty tight. The weak hitbox comes out on both sides prior to it canceling. Probably not all that useful given that the hitbox is close to useless and it has normal landing lag, but might be a cool bait.

 

[Thor]

Checked it, possible in PAL. Will keep it in my mind and try it whenever I get the chance. Seems like if you buffer shield before you catch the rang you will chain cancels, first the rang cancels the up B lag and then the shield cancels the rang catch animation. This is true for other lagging attacks as well for example dair or zair.

This means you could actually do an even longer chain:
laggy otherwise unrewarding move > rang catch > shield > jump/grab > UpB/upsmash | random aerial

Should be a neat trick that finally makes rang catches useful.

I had figured the landing cancels the boomerang catching animation but if we can shield to cancel the boomerang animation... then yeah you could cancel boomerang catches with shield -> OoS option.

I mentioned it because if someone can perfect the spacing, it makes doing an up+B onstage much less laggy, which would be highly useful to shield Sheik ledgehop fair/dair, Falcon ledgehop knee, Falco ledgehop dair, etc. I dunno how much people actually already know about it [maybe SAUS already knows and there's some limitations I'm missing], but if it's as automatic as it looked, it seems worth learning.

And if it cancels lag in the air this way, I would be willing to guess one could also use this in place of a bomb jump when up+B is stale on Dreamland (or maybe any stage, but Dreamland has huge blastzones so there's more space offstage) - while falling, boomerang smash throw upwards, double jump and up+b, boomerang catch and you can airdodge, zair, or up+B again. People could try to throw it off by getting hit by the boomerang, but we could check out how not smash throwing it [or different angles - perhaps angling it down not a smash ow means you don't even need a jump???] would affect this.

I left my Wii and Melee disc at school () but I'll hopefully be able to test this when I get back.

 

[squirrels4ev]

This may sound weird but have you guys done many things involving NIL? Link seems to have some angles and jumps that garuntee NIL on plats for battlefiled and dreamland.

I use NIL grab on the side platforms of Battlefield for platform techchasing. I haven't got the timing down for DL yet. I save it mostly for fastfallers because grab is usually most rewarding on them, although Link has guaranteed follows on most characters at most percents with either uthrow or dthrow.

 

[SAUS]

I haven't seen the boomerang cancelling up-b lag. I think it's just an awkward place to have your boomerang out where you will actually catch it and the timing window seems a bit tight. I'll test it out. One thing about boomerang catch is that the entire animation (I think) is IASA frames. Holding shield would cancel it and have you shield instantly.

Have we confirmed that it cancels the up-b mid-air? That would definitely create some super sick / jank recovery options - probably better than bomb jump a lot of the time since you'd still be able to tether afterwards (facing the right way). It also wouldn't be percent dependent, but I guess it's hard to be in a spot you'd need it without being decently high percent.

NIL is great :D I think it can be used to tomahawk d-smash shield stab people as well (if they are shielding on a platform). I have definitely landing tech chase grabs and up-bs on the top platform of battlefield with it.

 

[Bravo_10]

I haven't seen the boomerang cancelling up-b lag. I think it's just an awkward place to have your boomerang out where you will actually catch it and the timing window seems a bit tight. I'll test it out. One thing about boomerang catch is that the entire animation (I think) is IASA frames. Holding shield would cancel it and have you shield instantly.

Have we confirmed that it cancels the up-b mid-air? That would definitely create some super sick / jank recovery options - probably better than bomb jump a lot of the time since you'd still be able to tether afterwards (facing the right way). It also wouldn't be percent dependent, but I guess it's hard to be in a spot you'd need it without being decently high percent.

NIL is great :D I think it can be used to tomahawk d-smash shield stab people as well (if they are shielding on a platform). I have definitely landing tech chase grabs and up-bs on the top platform of battlefield with it.

I'm virtually certain that boomerang does not cancel up-B mid-air. However, it may cancel helplessness, I'm not sure. I'll try it when I get home. I think that if boomerang did cancel up-B, then there'd be no reason why Young Link players wouldn't use their crazy low angle boomerang throw before every up-B to get insane height. However having it cancel the landing lag of up-B is still pretty sick.

Also because you mentioned bomb jumping, I discovered something recently about turning yourself around to hookshot after bomb recovery. Typically you're going to up-B after bomb jumping, but on the off chance that you do have time to turn around and hookshot (or if you're on a stage like Fountain or Yoshi's where there's a lot of tether real estate), doing a reverse neutral B is actually slightly faster than turning around with boomerang. Arrows take 42 frames to fire, boomerang takes 45 to come out. Probably inconsequential, but there's really no reason not to give yourself those extra three frames.

 

[Team Plasma N]

Boomerang does not cancel Up B in midair or helpless state as far as I know (assuming we're talking about 1.02, for 1.00 or 1.01 I'm not sure, but we do have that neat Air Dodge cancel with boomerang in those versions). However the no landing lag from up b recovery sounds crazy, sounds like something to practice just in case.

 

[Thor]

Boomerang does not cancel Up B in midair or helpless state as far as I know (assuming we're talking about 1.02, for 1.00 or 1.01 I'm not sure, but we do have that neat Air Dodge cancel with boomerang in those versions). However the no landing lag from up b recovery sounds crazy, sounds like something to practice just in case.

Want to tell me more about this airdodge cancel? According to what I normally look to for very basic info about Link's changes between versions, he only has four - Spin Attack lost the semi-spike in PAL, Link lost the "chain dance" and boomerang super jump glitches in PAL and 1.2, and catching boomerang no longer cancels the grapple animation.

Partially related: I am pretty sure the setup used for that set was NTSC 1.02, but I can ask the TO about it if need be. I still plan to test the stuff I mentioned above (my version is NTSC 1.02, although I'll probably double-check that), but I don't get back to my setup until Sunday afternoon at the earliest, so it'll be a while.

 

[Team Plasma N]

It's the one where you can air dodge into hookshot and have the boomerang cancel that allowing you do do another air dodge into hookshot or an Up B. Not sure what the term is called so my b.

 

[Hunybear]

Just gonna add on to this. Link can cancel his boomerang catch animation with jump. No real need to do stuff OOS

 

[The Carpenter]

Doin' some tech practice and I did something by total accident, nothing surprising that you can do it but it occurred to me it may have some situational use. So what happened was I accidentally threw a bomb at my feet and then also unintentionally CCed it which apparently doing this causes you to turn around and you can act instantly out of it. The only real use for this I can think of is to bait an opponent into approaching if they expect you to be popped up by it and you could punish the approach. Idk, mostly just throwing this out there to see if anyone can think of a use. One other thing that occurred to me is it could be used to snap to ledge, tested it and you can but I don't see how that would be useful while ledge cancel up-B auto ledge grab is a thing.

 

[Hunybear]

Doin' some tech practice and I did something by total accident, nothing surprising that you can do it but it occurred to me it may have some situational use. So what happened was I accidentally threw a bomb at my feet and then also unintentionally CCed it which apparently doing this causes you to turn around and you can act instantly out of it. The only real use for this I can think of is to bait an opponent into approaching if they expect you to be popped up by it and you could punish the approach. Idk, mostly just throwing this out there to see if anyone can think of a use. One other thing that occurred to me is it could be used to snap to ledge, tested it and you can but I don't see how that would be useful while ledge cancel up-B auto ledge grab is a thing.

this is particularly useless but it is something. if you actually do this near the edge the turn around will put you off and you'll grab ledge. Also if you CC d-throw a bomb over 40% it'll cause knock down. You can tech it and do a really long tech roll. There's other stuff to but keep playing around and se what you can find.

 

[SAUS]

I think the more significant part is that you can CC bombs. Never forget that since you can make some dumb stuff happen lol. Like double f-smash on shield only to get reset by your own bomb (the bomb would have to be in the air falling toward you). I am trying to be more aware of this kind of thing and I think it is a big deal.

 

[Hunybear]

Something I've been playing with is grabbing after bombs bounce off shield. I like to pumle and use the bomb like a Better F-throw. I've also been timing my throws to where the bombs explode during the throw invisability so it doesn't break up the grab. I think opponents who shield bombs are really easy to beat.

 

[SAUS]

So I was asking perhapsman for some help figuring out shiek chain grab specifics and mentioned to him the boomerang cancelling up-b landing lag. I think he was messing around with it and then noticed that Link's dair does 22% (lol I already knew - he was slightly mind blown, though).

Anyway, he looked at the numbers / tested it out and it seems like if you get a frame perfect dair landing animation cancel by catching a boomerang, you are +9 on shield. I assume it is with latest possible dair and earliest possible boomerang catch, so it would be reaaally hard to set up, but it is really funny, at least. It may be feasible to go for really stupid dairs on shield when you know you will catch the boomerang right after.

I figure with +9 on shield, you can probably guarantee a d-smash shield stab. However, I doubt anyone will get +9 consistently. I think you'd want to do a fading jump or crossup or something like that. Use it as a way to get out of the corner or something. I doubt I will use it, but I will probably be going for it in friendlies lol.

 

[Hunybear]

So I was asking perhapsman for some help figuring out shiek chain grab specifics and mentioned to him the boomerang cancelling up-b landing lag. I think he was messing around with it and then noticed that Link's dair does 22% (lol I already knew - he was slightly mind blown, though).

Anyway, he looked at the numbers / tested it out and it seems like if you get a frame perfect dair landing animation cancel by catching a boomerang, you are +9 on shield. I assume it is with latest possible dair and earliest possible boomerang catch, so it would be reaaally hard to set up, but it is really funny, at least. It may be feasible to go for really stupid dairs on shield when you know you will catch the boomerang right after.

I figure with +9 on shield, you can probably guarantee a d-smash shield stab. However, I doubt anyone will get +9 consistently. I think you'd want to do a fading jump or crossup or something like that. Use it as a way to get out of the corner or something. I doubt I will use it, but I will probably be going for it in friendlies lol.

Wouldn't you have to cancel the rang catch animation with something tho? Or do you mean that after catching animation link is still +9 which I find difficult to believe.