Optimizing Link

Bravo_10

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#1
I've been watching some of the 20GX Captain Falcon videos put together by Gravy, Gahtzu, and Wizzy, and I'm feeling kind of curious about whether or not anybody's tried to do a similar thing with Link.

The gist of those videos (and streams) is examining situations in-depth with frame data and trying to figure out the optimal ways to tech chase, punish, win neutral, and generally play well with the character. While I don't think anybody will argue that a perfectly optimized Link will ever be as much of a threat as a perfectly optimized Falcon, I think working towards the "20XX" of Link tech is still a worthwhile pursuit.

So how far have people taken things like this? Has anyone broken down situations like tech chasing Falco and what windows we have to react?
 

Corona

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#2
Skler had an extremely good guide of his own in the pinned section (link no longer works unfortunately), and the newer guide up there is pretty good as well. If you do a little searching on youtube, I think I remember HDL having a video where he gives his advice for a multitude of situations, but I think that is about as far as it's ever gotten. For every Link main, there are like 25-50 Marth, Sheik, Falcon, Fox, or Falco mains, individually, so it the demand for such a product just isn't there. Shouldn't stop you from booting up 20XX, going to training, turning the speed down, and drill tech chase options though. That'd be what I'd do.
 

RetroGamersGuru

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#3
Kind of like Fish Link said, we have guides but not very in depth frame by frame analysis. IMO, more Link players have to improve until we are at least at an equal level to the upper Links or better (preferably better than how HDL was before he dropped Link). I'm going to try to become better at reading the frame data and interpreting the circumstances for more punishes, approaches, etc. Of course I need some more experience as well (I really wish that I would have more time for tourneys or have any chance to play any of the top 6 to get advice after getting destroyed).

So basically no, we don't have analysis quite at the level of 20XX yet, and we won't have it until we basically level up as players like the ones have done in order to provide stuff like 20GX in the first place.
 

Bravo_10

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#4
Yeah I think I get that, I'm certainly not on the level of the Florida Falcons, and it will take a lot of practice to get that far. Though I still want to see what I can do about trying to optimize my game by looking at things frame-by-frame. It's a bit of a struggle for me because I don't have a Wii, but maybe with Dolphin I can figure something out.
 

RetroGamersGuru

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#5
Yeah I think I get that, I'm certainly not on the level of the Florida Falcons, and it will take a lot of practice to get that far. Though I still want to see what I can do about trying to optimize my game by looking at things frame-by-frame. It's a bit of a struggle for me because I don't have a Wii, but maybe with Dolphin I can figure something out.
Yeah, we all will get there eventually. It takes a while though. We will optimize him.
Let's just be optimistic.
 

SAUS

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#6
Yeah, we all will get there eventually. It takes a while though. We will optimize him.
Let's just be optimistic.
optimizetic

I don't have the data written down or anything, but I ask my local yoshi main, Perhapsman, about frame stuff all the time.

The most recent ones I asked about are:
- Can Shiek fair, shai drop, fair, such that I can't shield drop up-air in between. The answer is no. Shield drop up-air is godlike.
- Can enemies CC grab between my jabs. The answer was no, but they might be able to grab the last one. I should also find out if rapid jab comes out fast enough, since they definitely can't CC grab that.

This also lead me to CC jab. I think it might be the best / only option when CCing against spacies. They are just too fast. As a rule of thumb, I try to SDI sideways if they will land very close to me (they are more likely to dair) and CC if I don't think their dair will reach. This prevents shine from hitting between the jabs. If rapid *** is safe against CC, I think it might be a solid option. They can probably shield it though.

There are lots of things like this that I work out, but the numbers are quickly forgotten, since they don't mean much to me after I know what works and what won't. I usually just try to keep a frame window for myself, so that I know how lenient it is.
 

RetroGamersGuru

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#7
optimizetic

I don't have the data written down or anything, but I ask my local yoshi main, Perhapsman, about frame stuff all the time.

The most recent ones I asked about are:
- Can Shiek fair, shai drop, fair, such that I can't shield drop up-air in between. The answer is no. Shield drop up-air is godlike.
- Can enemies CC grab between my jabs. The answer was no, but they might be able to grab the last one. I should also find out if rapid jab comes out fast enough, since they definitely can't CC grab that.

This also lead me to CC jab. I think it might be the best / only option when CCing against spacies. They are just too fast. As a rule of thumb, I try to SDI sideways if they will land very close to me (they are more likely to dair) and CC if I don't think their dair will reach. This prevents shine from hitting between the jabs. If rapid *** is safe against CC, I think it might be a solid option. They can probably shield it though.

There are lots of things like this that I work out, but the numbers are quickly forgotten, since they don't mean much to me after I know what works and what won't. I usually just try to keep a frame window for myself, so that I know how lenient it is.
Optimizetic? Autocorrect?

Anyway, yeah, this kind of content will be needed in the future for what we will aim for. But with the numbers, all the more reason to record them for the players that do hold meaning in them for the sake of the development of their playstyle (in Link's limits of course) and their choices in the matches.

Another thing that should be researched, if there isn't a thread already for it, is the physics and specific, underlying properties of all of Link's projectiles (mainly Bomb and Boomerang, but Arrow does have its uses sometimes, edgeguarding).
 
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#8
throwing opponents onto platforms and then following them to get a spin attack could be a good optimization. I think (link is a secondary) the spin attack has different trajectories to send at, so maybe we could work on timing those.

Z-dropping bombs could be great. I think if you are going forwards in the air, you can z-drop and then attack the bomb for a recovery. maybe this will work with double jumping, z-dropping, and then nairing in place. I'm not too sure about the nair.

IDK what you call it when you slip off the edge using a grounded spin attack, maybe "edge-cancelled spin attack." It makes link say "****," so the taunt meta would explode if this tech was mastered.. It's really hard to do, young link's is easier to do. I was one time using Young link and managed to make a combo off of it.
 

RetroGamersGuru

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#9
throwing opponents onto platforms and then following them to get a spin attack could be a good optimization. I think (link is a secondary) the spin attack has different trajectories to send at, so maybe we could work on timing those.

Z-dropping bombs could be great. I think if you are going forwards in the air, you can z-drop and then attack the bomb for a recovery. maybe this will work with double jumping, z-dropping, and then nairing in place. I'm not too sure about the nair.

IDK what you call it when you slip off the edge using a grounded spin attack, maybe "edge-cancelled spin attack." It makes link say "****," so the taunt meta would explode if this tech was mastered.. It's really hard to do, young link's is easier to do. I was one time using Young link and managed to make a combo off of it.
It could be. Grounded Up B covers entire platforms on most stages when positioned at the middle, so it covers all options on platforms except for getup attack when next to you of course (but if you feel the attack coming you wouldn't go right next to the opponent anyways). We'll have to take a look at the recovery idea and if the trajectory is worth the attempt. Also, the grounded Up B of the edge (I'll just call it sliding spin attack) could be used as a way to put out a killing/finishing hitbox without the end lag (at the expense of requiring good tech skill in controlling it, but that just means that it requires practice, why else has Fox become so good).
 

SAUS

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#10
Optimizetic? Autocorrect?

Anyway, yeah, this kind of content will be needed in the future for what we will aim for. But with the numbers, all the more reason to record them for the players that do hold meaning in them for the sake of the development of their playstyle (in Link's limits of course) and their choices in the matches.

Another thing that should be researched, if there isn't a thread already for it, is the physics and specific, underlying properties of all of Link's projectiles (mainly Bomb and Boomerang, but Arrow does have its uses sometimes, edgeguarding).
I was making a bad pun by combining optimistic and optimize lol.

It could be. Grounded Up B covers entire platforms on most stages when positioned at the middle, so it covers all options on platforms except for getup attack when next to you of course (but if you feel the attack coming you wouldn't go right next to the opponent anyways). We'll have to take a look at the recovery idea and if the trajectory is worth the attempt. Also, the grounded Up B of the edge (I'll just call it sliding spin attack) could be used as a way to put out a killing/finishing hitbox without the end lag (at the expense of requiring good tech skill in controlling it, but that just means that it requires practice, why else has Fox become so good).
If you can get onto the platform and shield, you can cover all options from there. Though I guess they could wait, so maybe not.

There is a technique that I think could add quite a bit to Link's play - no impact land. It is where you land at the apex of your jump and you sort of just land instantly. I think it only has 1 frame where you are landing, so it's even faster than just landing. Waveland takes 10 frames, so it is way faster. Link's double jump is short, so you can make it work in a lot more situations than most characters. I just find it hard to do super consistently and also doing stuff out of it correctly is tricky, since you don't really have a window where inputs do nothing. If you try to no impact land up-b, and you do it just a bit too early, you will get the air up-b and that is super bad lol.
 

RetroGamersGuru

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#11
I was making a bad pun by combining optimistic and optimize lol.


If you can get onto the platform and shield, you can cover all options from there. Though I guess they could wait, so maybe not.

There is a technique that I think could add quite a bit to Link's play - no impact land. It is where you land at the apex of your jump and you sort of just land instantly. I think it only has 1 frame where you are landing, so it's even faster than just landing. Waveland takes 10 frames, so it is way faster. Link's double jump is short, so you can make it work in a lot more situations than most characters. I just find it hard to do super consistently and also doing stuff out of it correctly is tricky, since you don't really have a window where inputs do nothing. If you try to no impact land up-b, and you do it just a bit too early, you will get the air up-b and that is super bad lol.
Oh, lol.

That's true, Up B is a more committed option in every sense while your suggestion is more passive and allows for you to watch the opponent and react.

This is interesting, I haven't heard of this before. So you mostly would jump around the height to basically land on a platform without any falling whether short hopping or full hopping. I'll need to try this.
 

SAUS

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#13
Did a bit of googling (and really, just a little bit lol - googled "ssbm no impact land") and got: http://smashboards.com/threads/no-impact-land.293470/

Seems someone else had the same idea in 2010. Looks like the typical low discussion on the link boards killed it though. I think we should probably just keep the discussion here, but there are some points in there that are nice. The tomahawk grab is what I was mostly thinking of using it for, but also as a quick follow up when they have to tech on a platform. It's also a rather quick movement option.

One thing that just jumped into my mind right now is that you could hold light shield (since it won't make you air dodge) while doing the no impact land and you will light shield immediately after landing. It would at least be easy to input. It's use is probably super niche though.

Another random thing I was looking into (I asked Kadano on his thread in the marth boards at one point) was the instant-snap to the edge with Link's tether recovery. He only showed it for battlefield, but he said the frame window is frames 4-9 (iirc, I will dig through and try to quote the post into here when I get home). I've messed around with it and it seems to work on all the stages in some way or another. He mentioned that it has to do with the hookshot's ECB (environment collision box) orientation with the stage.

Keep in mind frames 4-9 is like a wavedash timing and it is 6 frames to work with, so that's actually rather easy. Just try to time it after the hookshot hits the wall. It works most of the time for me after not that much practice.
 

SAUS

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#14
Okay I found it.

Do you know how much lenience there is for this sweetspot?
At the position in the animation you quoted, pressing A on frames 4-9 and on 29 or later of your 313 animation will cause the teleport. This frame window is the largest when your hookshot hits as high as possible. In the animation above, it’s a bit lower than what would have been optimal.
Here is a perfect sweetspot:
Do you know if it's always slightly below the edge for other stages?
More or less, but it would take ridiculously long to explain this in detail. Suffice to say that on all stages, aiming for the highest part of the wall is optimal, although the frame windows for pressing A differ from stage to stage due to the hookshot’s ECB alignment.
 

RetroGamersGuru

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#15
Did a bit of googling (and really, just a little bit lol - googled "ssbm no impact land") and got: http://smashboards.com/threads/no-impact-land.293470/

Seems someone else had the same idea in 2010. Looks like the typical low discussion on the link boards killed it though. I think we should probably just keep the discussion here, but there are some points in there that are nice. The tomahawk grab is what I was mostly thinking of using it for, but also as a quick follow up when they have to tech on a platform. It's also a rather quick movement option.

One thing that just jumped into my mind right now is that you could hold light shield (since it won't make you air dodge) while doing the no impact land and you will light shield immediately after landing. It would at least be easy to input. It's use is probably super niche though.

Another random thing I was looking into (I asked Kadano on his thread in the marth boards at one point) was the instant-snap to the edge with Link's tether recovery. He only showed it for battlefield, but he said the frame window is frames 4-9 (iirc, I will dig through and try to quote the post into here when I get home). I've messed around with it and it seems to work on all the stages in some way or another. He mentioned that it has to do with the hookshot's ECB (environment collision box) orientation with the stage.

Keep in mind frames 4-9 is like a wavedash timing and it is 6 frames to work with, so that's actually rather easy. Just try to time it after the hookshot hits the wall. It works most of the time for me after not that much practice.
Heh, well at least the boards are a little bit more active as of late (when we aren't at tournaments of course), and at least that technique has been uncovered to experiment with).

Also, nice on finding the posts again.
-----------

So we have some things to look into already!
-Studying the physics and properties of projectiles (to optimize them)
-Optimization of finishers (like the Sliding Spin Attack)
-Utilization of No Impact Land
-Optimization of Platforms in all aspects of the match in every specific situation
-Perfect sweetspoting on all stages

This is just the tip of the iceberg, so let's delve deeper.
 

Bravo_10

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#16
This was kind of already discussed before, but with regards to the ledge-spin (the thing where you do a grounded up-B and grab the ledge), I've actually been working very hard to perform the technique consistently. In many situations, it's simply the fastest way to reach the ledge, and I think with everyone else's movement getting faster and faster, Link needs all the help he can get to do things quickly around the stage. That said, if you're already holding a bomb, it's faster to do a short hop -> backwards bomb throw -> fast fall to ledge.

Also I'd love to check the frame data on this myself, but one thing I've been doing ever since I started playing is immediate double jumping to the lower platforms when I want to waveland. It's always felt faster than simply full hopping, but I've no idea how much faster it really is, and it puts you in a really bad spot if you flub the waveland because suddenly you're jumpless. If I can get the hack pack to work on Dolphin again, I think I'll check and see how much faster it really is and see if it's worth the risk.
 

RetroGamersGuru

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#17
This was kind of already discussed before, but with regards to the ledge-spin (the thing where you do a grounded up-B and grab the ledge), I've actually been working very hard to perform the technique consistently. In many situations, it's simply the fastest way to reach the ledge, and I think with everyone else's movement getting faster and faster, Link needs all the help he can get to do things quickly around the stage. That said, if you're already holding a bomb, it's faster to do a short hop -> backwards bomb throw -> fast fall to ledge.

Also I'd love to check the frame data on this myself, but one thing I've been doing ever since I started playing is immediate double jumping to the lower platforms when I want to waveland. It's always felt faster than simply full hopping, but I've no idea how much faster it really is, and it puts you in a really bad spot if you flub the waveland because suddenly you're jumpless. If I can get the hack pack to work on Dolphin again, I think I'll check and see how much faster it really is and see if it's worth the risk.
I've been experimenting with multiple techniques lately, and I think that the no impact land is the fastest option to get onto platforms for followups and tech chases (you can correct me on what is the fastest if anyone has analyzed the frame data since I can't analyze frame data all that well yet). I've been playing around with the sliding spin attack as well, and, if it hasn't already been said, you mainly just use a mental mark to keep in mind that once reached or passed you do the inputs. Since I've made some mental marks that seem to work for me, I'm thinking about sharing what I was thinking with the sliding spin attack and the no impact lands through a video or document once I become very consistent with the inputs. The mental marks are the first step, but you have to be able to do it to even make a point.
 

Bravo_10

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#18
Also if it's valuable at all, I think the advantage Bowser gets on Yoshi's Story with his fortress hogging kinda translates to ledge spinning as well. Like it doesn't seem possible to overshoot the ledge by pressing up-B too late when you slide off, you just sorta snap to the ledge really quickly. Theoretically you'll only play about 1/5 of your games on any given stage, so it's of limited usefulness, but it's good to remember that ledge spinning is considerably easier and more reliable there.
 

RetroGamersGuru

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#19
Also if it's valuable at all, I think the advantage Bowser gets on Yoshi's Story with his fortress hogging kinda translates to ledge spinning as well. Like it doesn't seem possible to overshoot the ledge by pressing up-B too late when you slide off, you just sorta snap to the ledge really quickly. Theoretically you'll only play about 1/5 of your games on any given stage, so it's of limited usefulness, but it's good to remember that ledge spinning is considerably easier and more reliable there.
That's good to know. I'll try to share my info in a more organized manner when I get the chance.
 

SAUS

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#21
Link probably has some untapped ledge potential. He is one of the only characters in the game with a fully invincible DJ ledge stall and can go of the edge 4 frames before every character in the game.
While he gets off the edge 4 frames faster, he still only has the same 30 frames after that animation ends. He can just act sooner. I find this makes some of his ledge techniques harder, since you don't have that extra time between things. Overall, it is definitely better than being the normal 7 frames since you can do things sooner after getting to the edge, but they aren't really more effective. I find repeated hax dashes with Link to be hard but very easy with Falcon (though I think the window and angle on Link's air dodge is less lenient for it as well, so that would also cause problems).

I'll have to look it up again, but I'm pretty sure Link only gets 2 frames where he can act after a perfect ledge dash. He doesn't have a ton he can do. I think you have to abuse ledge stalling to make his ledge game work. If the opponent anticipates your action, you could just get yourself killed / off the stage.
 

1MachGO

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#22
According to Kadano's chart, Link gets 9 frames after an ideal ledge dash. While that's average invincibility, Link can go from grabbing the ledge to actionable and on the stage in the same amount of time as Mario or Luigi thanks to his short ledge grab animation. Which is pretty good, imo.
 

SAUS

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#23
According to Kadano's chart, Link gets 9 frames after an ideal ledge dash. While that's average invincibility, Link can go from grabbing the ledge to actionable and on the stage in the same amount of time as Mario or Luigi thanks to his short ledge grab animation. Which is pretty good, imo.
Woooah. Can you link me to that chart? I remember seeing it a long time ago, but I was certain Link's ledge dash wasn't that good. 9 frames is enough to up-b, up-tilt, d-smash, or jab. That would be very good.
 

1MachGO

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#24

Grounded actionable ledge intangibility (abb. galint)
╔════════════════╤═╤══╤══╤══╤══╗
║Character ......│E│OL│PL│NL│AI║
╟────────────────┼─┼──┼──┼──┼──╢

║Zelda ..........│N│ 2│..│..│ 9
║Sheik ..........│Y│1112│..│ 8
║Popo ...........│N│13│..│..│..║
║Nana ...........│N│13│..│..│..║
║Captain Falcon .│Y│10121715
║Young Link .....│N│12│..│..│..║
║Donkey Kong ....│N│ 7│..│..│..║
║Doctor Mario ...│Y│14│..│..│..║
║Falco ..........│Y│1415│..│..║
║Fox ............│Y│1516│..│..║
║Kirby ..........│N│12│..│..│..║
║Bowser .........│N│ 8│..│..│..║
║Link ...........│Y│ 912│..│..║
║Luigi ..........│Y│13│..│..│..║
║Mario ..........│Y│13│..│..│..║
║Marth ..........│N│ 4│..│ 13
║Mewtwo .........│N│ 1│..│..│ 6
║Ness ...........│N│ 4│..│..│..║
║Peach ..........│N│..│..│..│..║
║Pichu ..........│Y│1516│..│..║

║Pikachu ........│Y│13│..│..│..║
║Jigglypuff .....│N│ 9│..│..│..║
║Samus ..........│N│ 4│..│..│11
║Yoshi ..........│N│ 2│..│..│ 8
║Mr. Game&Watch .│N│ 9│..│ 6│..║

║Ganondorf ......│Y│ 4918│..║
║Roy ............│N│ 5│..│..│..║
╟────────────────┼─┼──┼──┼──┼──╢
║Giga Bowser¹ ...│.│..│..│..│..║
║Master Hand² ...│.│..│..│..│..║
║Crazy Hand² ....│.│..│..│..│..║
║Male Wireframe .│Y│ 89│..│..║

║Female Wireframe│N│ 5│..│..│..║
║Sandbag³ .......│.│..│..│..│..║
╚════════════════╧═╧═══════════╝

E = ECB manipulation-abuse possible Yes/No (applied for OL only if the execution is managable/realistic; always applied for PL if it increases gaInt)
OL = Optimal ledgedash (hard to do frame-perfect, but possible)
PL = Perfect ledgedash (TAS-realm – requires a weird setup and/or tricky timing)
NL = No-impact landing (requires a very specific setup usually)
AI = Aerial Interrupt (Captain Falcon’s requires a very specific setup, namely grabbing the ledge out of his up-B apex, as well. Those of Samus and Yoshi do not)

These values are for FD. Other stages, especially YS and FoD, probably have slightly different values due to their ledges not being perfectly even.

This chart is not perfectly accurate. I’m sure there are a few aerial interrupts and lagless landing options that I didn’t find. The ledgedash data itself should be correct, though.

¹Giga Bowser’s ledgehop is too short to rise above the stage.
²Master Hand and Crazy Hand cannot move and thus are unable to grab the ledge.
³Sandbag can move, but grabbing the ledge is beyond his capabilities. (I might work on a Sandbag improvement hack if I find the motivation.)
Take a look
 

Thor

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#25
Stuff I thought while reading this:

I don't know about "optimal", but in general, I want my opponent above me while I'm hitting them with uair. I love it when they DI onto platforms since Link is fast enough to cover any option with uair and can even go for dair as a finisher. I do a ton of dthrow up+b at KO percents or near them to knock people offstage and edgeguard. I also know I'm bad at dthrow dair on the characters vulnerable to it, and I think compiling a full list of when dthrow utilt works would be great.

I still have no idea of uses for zair given its extraordinary landing lag, besides the cheekiest most disrespectful edgeguarding tool [and a way to save a teammate while recovering if they're out of range for up+B] and as a desperation interrupt vs an opponent when you aridodged.

Also, surf wavedashing marginally extends his wavedash range. Probably important for something.

Learning to tech chase on reaction with dthrow [if possible] could make a lot of MUs slightly better, in that it could be at least one free regrab almost regardless of stage position, and depending on where they are and how they tech, a lot more. It's really hard to do and super punishing to whiff though.

I cc dsmash spacie stuff, but I think that's cuz I'm bad. Dsmash is I think frame 9, so it's a little slow compared to jab [frame 6 to 8], but it's a bit easier to do in terms of inputs. It also sets up for stuff better [so if they do a landing weak nair this might actually be an option?]

Spacies can CC shine out of rapid jab as far as I know [it'll clank it out]. It even works in PM, where Link's rapid jab seems considerably faster and shine doesn't have an I-frame.

Link can SH fair and if not fast-falled, it will allow the second hitbox to come out if done almost perfectly - it's easy shield pressure [I think at worst it's like -4 on shield or something] and it does that little bit of extra shield damage due to being a second hit. It can also throw off OoS rhythms [i.e. you can stuff an option with extra shieldstun or the hit itself] and I think it's possible to combo the second hit into uair [need to check if that's just terrible DI or actually possible]. SHFFL fair is still awesome in its own right though.

According to our frame data thread, uair is frame 5, only a single frame slower than nair. SAUS suggested elsewhere that fullhop nair -> landing uair can work if someone tries to CC nair or jumps over you or whatever - this works awesome.

Haxdash is good because it gives tether back. It's also good for other reasons, but if you can haxdash consistently it's awesome for getting a recovery option back immediately, in case you somehow have a ledgehop aerial stuffed.
 

RetroGamersGuru

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#26
After experimenting with no impact landing, I usually end up doing it more consistently (depending on the height of the platform above the stage) when I use my first jump and fall slightly to where I can use the second jump and perform it perfectly. I'm not completely sure on how I can apply this considering what I do to perform the special landing. Has anyone been able to apply this landing in a match for a certain situation?

Edit: I'm just asking since the landing itself is good, but the setup for it to me takes a while.
 
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Bravo_10

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#27
I find that on Battlefield, simply double-tapping jump from the stage leads to what I presume to be a no-impact land on the side platforms. More than that I haven't tested yet, but I'm pretty sure what I can do so far is legit.

I also experimented with going under Battlefield, which to my surprise isn't that hard at all! Easily the hardest bit is spacing the hookshot. After that, it's just a quick double jump and up-B to the ledge on the other side. Not sure if it's remotely useful in tournament because it's a pretty slow process, but you could probably surprise someone in a high-pressure situation.
 

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#28
I find that on Battlefield, simply double-tapping jump from the stage leads to what I presume to be a no-impact land on the side platforms. More than that I haven't tested yet, but I'm pretty sure what I can do so far is legit.

I also experimented with going under Battlefield, which to my surprise isn't that hard at all! Easily the hardest bit is spacing the hookshot. After that, it's just a quick double jump and up-B to the ledge on the other side. Not sure if it's remotely useful in tournament because it's a pretty slow process, but you could probably surprise someone in a high-pressure situation.
I find myself that dropping slightly and then doing the second jump to be more effective, but I'll see if I can get the other method to work.

Yeah, you really only have one chance to do it in a match of you want to mix it up. A smart player will figure out what you're doing if you try it again. I wouldn't use it against a very fast character like Falcon or Fox, maybe Sheik and Falco at most in terms of highest speed.
 

SAUS

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#29
I find that on Battlefield, simply double-tapping jump from the stage leads to what I presume to be a no-impact land on the side platforms. More than that I haven't tested yet, but I'm pretty sure what I can do so far is legit.

I also experimented with going under Battlefield, which to my surprise isn't that hard at all! Easily the hardest bit is spacing the hookshot. After that, it's just a quick double jump and up-B to the ledge on the other side. Not sure if it's remotely useful in tournament because it's a pretty slow process, but you could probably surprise someone in a high-pressure situation.
This is how I do it as well. I feel like it won't be as usable on Yoshi's story, Fountain, and Stadium. It obviously is unusable on FD, so I'd say learn it for Battlefield and Dreamland. Then maybe learn it for the top platforms of yoshi's and fountain.

Can you jump backwards and grab the same edge you came from? I haven't tested htis at all because I doubt I'd ever want to do it in a serious match lol.
 

RetroGamersGuru

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#30
This is how I do it as well. I feel like it won't be as usable on Yoshi's story, Fountain, and Stadium. It obviously is unusable on FD, so I'd say learn it for Battlefield and Dreamland. Then maybe learn it for the top platforms of yoshi's and fountain.

Can you jump backwards and grab the same edge you came from? I haven't tested htis at all because I doubt I'd ever want to do it in a serious match lol.
Yeah, BF and DL seem to be the easier ones to me as well. Yoshi's would be third for me (It's just that Yoshi's needs you to drop a little lower for the side platforms than on BF and DL making it feel mor noticeable). It doesn't help that the side platforms on FoD move occasionally. I've barely used it on stadium, but it feels close to Yoshi's inputs to me.

And it obviously is just so usable on FD. :smirk:
 

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#31
Okay, I've been testing the sliding spin attack edgehog on all of the stages, and like @ Bravo_10 Bravo_10 has said, It's easier to do on Yoshi's than any other stage. You still are able to mess it up with late inputs, but that just takes practice. I actually find Stadium to be the hardest to perform it on, which is okay considering the state of it being a counterpick rather than a neutral. Second hardest would be FD, but it's still easier in terms of making mental marks than PS.

I'm curious, but I can't setup 20XX to try to find out. How do Up B's hit boxes work once Link slides off? Is it just the hitboxes if Link did a jumping Up B?
 
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#32
Okay, I've been testing the sliding spin attack edgehog on all of the stages, and like @ Bravo_10 Bravo_10 has said, It's easier to do on Yoshi's than any other stage. You still are able to mess it up with late inputs, but that just takes practice. I actually find Stadium to be the hardest to perform it on, which is okay considering the state of it being a counterpick rather than a neutral. Second hardest would be FD, but it's still easier in terms of making mental marks than PS.

I'm curious, but I can't setup 20XX to try to find out. How do Up B's hit boxes work once Link slides off? Is it just the hitboxes if Link did a jumping Up B?
I think it is the jumping upb hitboxes.
 

Bravo_10

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#33
Okay, I've been testing the sliding spin attack edgehog on all of the stages, and like @ Bravo_10 Bravo_10 has said, It's easier to do on Yoshi's than any other stage. You still are able to mess it up with late inputs, but that just takes practice. I actually find Stadium to be the hardest to perform it on, which is okay considering the state of it being a counterpick rather than a neutral. Second hardest would be FD, but it's still easier in terms of making mental marks than PS.

I'm curious, but I can't setup 20XX to try to find out. How do Up B's hit boxes work once Link slides off? Is it just the hitboxes if Link did a jumping Up B?
Yes, it is the jumping up-B hitbox. Apparently in Brawl, you could get the regular grounded up-B with that technique, but it still wasn't quite as effective because the semi-spike was gone from that game. I think the best use of the ledge spin is really just to get onto the ledge quickly, but there are a few things you can still do if you tap the other guy with your hitbox.

This is one of the times where Link's mere three frames of ledge grab lag comes in handy. Once you hit somebody with the weak up-B hitbox, you'll be on the ledge and with full invincibility. A ledge drop nair can come out in as little as 7 frames, and characters like the space animals (who have slow startup on their recovery moves) will be totally shafted unless they manage to air dodge quickly onto the stage.

You could also try waiting for a recovery option from your opponent and punishing it on reaction, but Sheik will have too many options for you to cover that close to the stage.
 

RetroGamersGuru

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#34
I think it is the jumping upb hitboxes.
Yes, it is the jumping up-B hitbox. Apparently in Brawl, you could get the regular grounded up-B with that technique, but it still wasn't quite as effective because the semi-spike was gone from that game. I think the best use of the ledge spin is really just to get onto the ledge quickly, but there are a few things you can still do if you tap the other guy with your hitbox.

This is one of the times where Link's mere three frames of ledge grab lag comes in handy. Once you hit somebody with the weak up-B hitbox, you'll be on the ledge and with full invincibility. A ledge drop nair can come out in as little as 7 frames, and characters like the space animals (who have slow startup on their recovery moves) will be totally shafted unless they manage to air dodge quickly onto the stage.

You could also try waiting for a recovery option from your opponent and punishing it on reaction, but Sheik will have too many options for you to cover that close to the stage.
Okay, I was just making sure.

Yeah, I was trying to think of uses of it in punishes, and I punishing recovery options will apply to only the fast-fallers. I was hoping that the hitboxes would be the grounded version in order to have the semi-spike before grabbing the ledge, but I suppose the small time frame on the stage with the hitbox could work depending on how long it takes to come out.

Sheik's recovery options pretty much have to be covered the old-fashioned way I suppose.
 
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RetroGamersGuru

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#35
I've been thinking about the ways that we can get back on the ledge, and I've been thinking about something. I know that we can stay invincible with ledge stalling, but do we have a reliable hack-dash by conventional means (like Falcon), or do we have to use different techniques to get our tether back like we've been talking about?
 

SAUS

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#36
I've been thinking about the ways that we can get back on the ledge, and I've been thinking about something. I know that we can stay invincible with ledge stalling, but do we have a reliable hack-dash by conventional means (like Falcon), or do we have to use different techniques to get our tether back like we've been talking about?
Hax dash works with Link. I find it easier with Falcon, though. I recommend learning to do it.
 

Thor

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#37
Even a not-invincible hax-dash is useful if your opponent is respecting you at the ledge [ex: in shield too far for one of their OoS options] to get tether back and sometimes force a response... or you're in an edgeguard situation on the ledge, doing that gets tether back and leaves you on the ledge so they must go onstage - then if something goes horribly wrong, at least you have tether back to slightly raise the odds of recovering..

You get rekt if they're actually attacking though, since you're vulnerable if you're not perfect, which is why doing it perfect is vastly advisable.

Anybody know how to answer Falco's double laser from the ledge? I once managed to shield a laser and OoS nair him, but I swear that was either him not getting the laser and me thinking he did, or being almost perfect... do we just have to nair over the first laser, do up+B OoS, throw bombs, or what?
 

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#38
Even a not-invincible hax-dash is useful if your opponent is respecting you at the ledge [ex: in shield too far for one of their OoS options] to get tether back and sometimes force a response... or you're in an edgeguard situation on the ledge, doing that gets tether back and leaves you on the ledge so they must go onstage - then if something goes horribly wrong, at least you have tether back to slightly raise the odds of recovering..

You get rekt if they're actually attacking though, since you're vulnerable if you're not perfect, which is why doing it perfect is vastly advisable.

Anybody know how to answer Falco's double laser from the ledge? I once managed to shield a laser and OoS nair him, but I swear that was either him not getting the laser and me thinking he did, or being almost perfect... do we just have to nair over the first laser, do up+B OoS, throw bombs, or what?
I'd just throw bombs and boomerang.

Also I'm going to a big Panama tournament (my first Melee tournament EVER) and I plan to go full Link. If it goes well, my confidence will be decent enough with him to go to more and more tournaments and keep improving. (I'd work on improving anyways tho xD)

My plan is to become the best Link, like no one ever was. Cuz Link is honestly way too good (or, better than people think, at least)


let's optimize this mo'fo
 

Bravo_10

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#39
Well, I wouldn't get too excited about what Link can do. I think his Achilles heel will always be his slow movement and generally poor out of shield game. However he could probably qualify as underrated.

My friends and I were talking recently about what aMSa have done for low tier mains everywhere, giving a bit of hope that top 8 at majors might be possible. The more we discussed it though, the more we began to believe that a player like Armada ought to be the real goal for the players of slower low tier characters, like Link. Armada got to where he is by optimizing his punish game to the point where he admits to mostly playing on auto-pilot. So learning how to get the best possible punishes out of each opening in neutral (as well as converting hard off of edge guards) feels like the way to go.

And I don't know about everybody else, but... I want to be the Armada of Link. :D
 

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#40
Well, I wouldn't get too excited about what Link can do. I think his Achilles heel will always be his slow movement and generally poor out of shield game. However he could probably qualify as underrated.

My friends and I were talking recently about what aMSa have done for low tier mains everywhere, giving a bit of hope that top 8 at majors might be possible. The more we discussed it though, the more we began to believe that a player like Armada ought to be the real goal for the players of slower low tier characters, like Link. Armada got to where he is by optimizing his punish game to the point where he admits to mostly playing on auto-pilot. So learning how to get the best possible punishes out of each opening in neutral (as well as converting hard off of edge guards) feels like the way to go.

And I don't know about everybody else, but... I want to be the Armada of Link. :D
A commentator once said that he feels Link and Young link go up the tier list if they have a bomb in hand. I completely agree. Link has a poor OoS game, unless he has a bomb in hand. Up B, Nair and Bomb OoS are all solid enough options if he has all three at his disposal.

Also he has slow movement, but so does Falco and that hasn't stopped HIM from being top tier xD

The thing is, Link takes effort to play well, a lot more effort than someone like...Marth for example. So people tend to drop him FOR Marth, usually, or Fox.

An amazing player just has to rise up and show the world that Link has got the skills to be top 8 at nationals.

The only thing that screws us over is that Fox and Sheik just ridicule Link. The other top tiers arent nearly as bad, and he even has a pretty good MU vs ICs and Marth, and really good MU vs Peach. The rest of the cast is ctually either neutral or bad vs Link, so we DO got that advantage.

Thankfully we can combo spacies well, I think we just have to play a bit of a campy and defensive game until theyre at 40% or more and cant CC shine our everything-
 
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