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Optimism vs. pessimism: Which one makes more sense?

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Ryusuta

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It's something that has been going through my mind for a long time. To me, it seems like the VAST majority of people in the world are pessimists, and strangely enough, seem to be proud of it, wearing the perspective like a badge of honor.

To me, I've never understood this. When I look at pessimism, it just looks like such a waste of energy and life. To me, it seems like an excuse to not try new things or allow yourself to desire what you want, because you feel like you just won't get it.

I believe it was Benjamin Franklin that said something along the lines of "If I'm pessimistic, I either get what I expect, or I'm pleasantly surprised." (And I might have that totally wrong, by the way.) Yet, I feel like this is a rather self-deluding perspective. If you go through life expecting the worst, you'll always be LOOKING for the bad stuff in life just in order to prove yourself right. All too often I see people get a look of smug satisfaction when something goes wrong, either for themselves or (especially) for someone else. To me, that happiness, that schadenfreude, is perhaps one of the most disgusting attributes of the human condition.

Is there real justification for pessimism in life?

Now, let's be clear on this for a moment. When I speak about optimism, I'm not talking about the rose-colored "Pollyanna" outlook on life, necessarily. I'm speaking only of the basic sense that you attempt to do something because you believe that the outcome will be that which benefits you. The absolute baseline feeling of the glass being half-full rather than half-empty (I managed to get 5 paragraphs in before making that analogy!).

Also, let's not obfuscate this debate with garbage statements like "I'm not an optimist OR pessimist." Not only do I believe that to be a total and complete lie to start with (I hold that it's impossible to have entirely neutral preconceptions of every potential event), but it does nothing to advance this discussion whatsoever.

Remember, that none of us here are stupid. We ALL base our predictions on what we feel like the most realistic expectations. Even pessimists can expect a good outcome if it's the only realistic possibility, and vice-versa for optimists. Again, I'm speaking of a general tendancy toward one perspective versus the other.

Which outlook makes the most sense?
 

Jam Stunna

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I'm a pessimist. I expect the worst, but due to that I see lots of room for improvement and I think that things, while bad and more than likely will get worse, can get better,
 

Ryusuta

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Interesting. So, you feel that your pessimism allows you to see things that could be improved in something? I'm not sure the two are necessarily related (since I'm always finding ways to improve upon the things I see and experience), but I'm curious as to what examples you might have of this.
 

Darxmarth23

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I'm pessimistic also. But i realized that now matter what there is always room for improvement. nothing ever satisfied me.
 

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It's hard to classify a lot of people into either group. I think most people understand that there is room for improvement, but they have a generally optimistic outlook about their lives. Yeah, I can get better, but I still live a good life sort of thing. Or Yeah this person is sort of annoying, but he's a good person.
 

GoldShadow

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I think you need to more clearly define "optimist" vs "pessimist" before getting real good answers here.

To me, I've never understood this. When I look at pessimism, it just looks like such a waste of energy and life. To me, it seems like an excuse to not try new things or allow yourself to desire what you want, because you feel like you just won't get it.
Since when does this necessarily describe pessimism? It's quite possible to be a pessimist and try new things and desire new things to your heart's content. What if a pessimist is applying for a new job? Let's say he applies to several possible employers. He knows his qualifications, his merits, his flaws, and what his potential employers are looking for. Maybe he feels that, based on simple probability, he won't get any or a lot of offers. Maybe he knows that he'll get a few offers due to his qualifications. Regardless, he's going to apply for them.

Or let's say a pessimist has never been a roller coaster, but his friends keep insisting that he should try. Perhaps the pessimist feels that he won't like it; he's just never liked the idea of roller coasters. But he decides to try it anyway, because what does he have to lose? If he dislikes it, he was right; roller coasters do suck. But if he ends up liking it, then great! He's got a new hobby. Being a pessimist doesn't stop one from doing new things.

Or perhaps a pessimist's plane crashes in the wilderness in the middle of nowhere, and he's the only survivor. Maybe he thinks "the chance of somebody rescuing me is pretty slim; I shouldn't count on being rescued." But he's sure as hell not about to throw in the towel and just die. You can bet your *** he'll do everything in his power to survive and get rescued.

What if his optimist friend also survived the crash? The optimist would say "there's a chance we'll get rescued; we should keep that in mind and use it as motivation to survive." Then he'll do everything in his power to survive and get rescued.

In both cases, the outlook is different but the end result is the same.

Now, let's be clear on this for a moment. When I speak about optimism, I'm not talking about the rose-colored "Pollyanna" outlook on life, necessarily. I'm speaking only of the basic sense that you attempt to do something because you believe that the outcome will be that which benefits you. The absolute baseline feeling of the glass being half-full rather than half-empty
What exactly constitutes "baseline feeling"?



By the way, I'm not a pessimist, but I'm not an optimist either. It's false to think you have to be one or the other. People who say that aren't "neutral". Like everything else, pessimism and optimism form a continuum. You don't have to be "wholly pessimistic, wholly optimistic, or neutral". I think that both optimism and pessimism have merits, depending on the context.
 

pockyD

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I'm a pessimist, but I'm certainly not proud of it... I imagine I'd be a much happier person if I was an optimist

Unfortunately, for most people, their world outlook is shaped by their experiences, so you'll find that people who tend to have had a lot of disappointment (especially early) in their life become more pessimistic. I don't think it's completely a "conscious choice", as you're suggesting
 

RDK

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First of all, Orion, you're watering down the terms "pessimism" and "optimism" when you make such a black-and-white distinction like the one you made in the OP. Being a pessimist doesn't exactly dictate every single thing you do; nor does being an optimist. It has more to do with how you view life than anything else.

That being said, Goldshadow answered you sufficiently, so I won't beat a dead horse.


I'm a pessimist, but I'm certainly not proud of it... I imagine I'd be a much happier person if I was an optimist
And that's the point. I feel there's no reason to be an optimist if there's an overwhelming majority of ridiculousness and overall stupidity in the world. Why think the best of people when there's nothing there to merit it?

And I'm not saying all people are bad; that would be an ignorant generalization on the grandest possible scale. What I'm saying is that I usually assume the worst about people until I'm proven otherwise. The fact that I live in America probably doesn't help this. Our idiocy per capita is astounding.

I guess I just have a disdain for the masses.

From all the posts I've read in this topic, I think I agree with Jam and GS more than anyone else, although GS did little more than tear into the OP.
 

Ryusuta

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Or let's say a pessimist has never been a roller coaster, but his friends keep insisting that he should try. Perhaps the pessimist feels that he won't like it; he's just never liked the idea of roller coasters. But he decides to try it anyway, because what does he have to lose? If he dislikes it, he was right; roller coasters do suck. But if he ends up liking it, then great! He's got a new hobby. Being a pessimist doesn't stop one from doing new things.
I never said it didn't. But don't you see? If you have a negative attitude going into everything, I feel like you'll be much less receptive of the experience.

Or perhaps a pessimist's plane crashes in the wilderness in the middle of nowhere, and he's the only survivor. Maybe he thinks "the chance of somebody rescuing me is pretty slim; I shouldn't count on being rescued." But he's sure as hell not about to throw in the towel and just die. You can bet your *** he'll do everything in his power to survive and get rescued.

What if his optimist friend also survived the crash? The optimist would say "there's a chance we'll get rescued; we should keep that in mind and use it as motivation to survive." Then he'll do everything in his power to survive and get rescued.
As I said, we're not talking about delusional thinking one way or another. If it's not realistic to expect something bad (pessimists) or good (optimists), then naturally you're likely to act and think accordingly.

By the way, I'm not a pessimist, but I'm not an optimist either. It's false to think you have to be one or the other. People who say that aren't "neutral". Like everything else, pessimism and optimism form a continuum. You don't have to be "wholly pessimistic, wholly optimistic, or neutral". I think that both optimism and pessimism have merits, depending on the context.
Again, this serves no purpose in the conversation. And no, I do maintain that there aren't any neutrals. We always have a tendency toward certain attributes and characteristics in every action we take and every thought we have. As long as we interact with the environment, we are NOT neutral to it, by definition. It's easy to say "Oh, I'm neither one. It depends on the situation," but again, if you're like any other thinking human being on the planet, your history of actions and reactions will certainly lead in one direction or another.

Being a pessimist doesn't mean you think everything will fail no matter what. Being an optimist doesn't mean that you always think everything will go well. We are THINKING BEINGS. Of COURSE it's context dependent. Of course the are gray areas. No one is disputing that.

Can it be difficult to define someone as optimists or pessimists? Certainly, especially if that person is yourself. I'm merely speaking of the optimistic and pessimistic perspectives by and large, not trying to necessarily lump people into groups unwillingly. Although I do maintain that there are no true neutrals, that's not the point I'm driving at.

First of all, Orion, you're watering down the terms "pessimism" and "optimism" when you make such a black-and-white distinction like the one you made in the OP. Being a pessimist doesn't exactly dictate every single thing you do; nor does being an optimist.
I never said it does. Actually, if you'll read again, I said the exact opposite. Please read a little more carefully, and don't be in such a rush to misrepresent my post.

And that's the point. I feel there's no reason to be an optimist if there's an overwhelming majority of ridiculousness and overall stupidity in the world. Why think the best of people when there's nothing there to merit it?
Perhaps you're inventing all of that ignorance and stupidity in your own mind because you don't want to take the time to truly understand people or why they behave the way they do. Perhaps it's just easier to say "Ah, people are just stupid, so why bother."
 

GoldShadow

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Again, this serves no purpose in the conversation. And no, I do maintain that there aren't any neutrals. We always have a tendency toward certain attributes and characteristics in every action we take and every thought we have. As long as we interact with the environment, we are NOT neutral to it, by definition.
Exactly what I said (that we're not limited to either extreme or neutral; that most are not neutral because it's a continuum). Glad we agree!

Being a pessimist doesn't mean you think everything will fail no matter what. Being an optimist doesn't mean that you always think everything will go well. We are THINKING BEINGS. Of COURSE it's context dependent. Of course the are gray areas. No one is disputing that.
Glad we agree again.

So then what would be the purpose of arguing which is better if you say both can work depending on context, or if you say that there are gray areas?

Perhaps you're inventing all of that ignorance and stupidity in your own mind because you don't want to take the time to truly understand people or why they behave the way they do. Perhaps it's just easier to say "Ah, people are just stupid, so why bother."
Playing devil's advocate for a second: Or perhaps the optimist is inventing a lack of ignorance and stupidity in their own mind because they falsely think they need to take the time to understand people and why they behave the way they do. Perhaps it's easier to believe there's some merit to how and why people behave the way they do.


But alas! I'll use fancy phrases like "but alas!" and cave in and put down something a little more concrete than philosophy! In typical GoldShadow fashion, I'll throw some biology into this.

According to a Harvard study, optimists (as defined by a scale they used) had better rates of recovery from surgery and disease (specifically cardiac patients). Optimists had lower death rates in 15-40 year follow up studies. Optimists also had lower blood pressure and a lower rate of hypertension.

https://www.health.harvard.edu/news..._Watch/2008/December/optimism-and-your-health

An APA study had similar findings:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9972556

Another article in the NYT regarding the views and research of some psychologists showed that while broad and encompassing pessimism is certainly bad, pessimism in small doses can be necessary for stress release and is good for health and mental well being. In other contexts, neither pessimism nor optimism was better, as each outlook has coping mechanisms that work best with it (optimists were fine as long as they used coping mechanisms suited to optimism, pessimists were fine as long as they used coping mechanisms suited to pessimism).
http://partners.nytimes.com/library/national/science/health/081500hth-behavior-negativity.html

Yet another study showed that optimists had fewer sick days after the death of a loved one or family member than pessimists:
http://www.apa.org/journals/releases/hea244413.pdf



So the moral of these stories is: optimism is better than pessimism, but don't completely neglect your pessimistic tendencies either.
 

Ryusuta

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Playing devil's advocate for a second: Or perhaps the optimist is inventing a lack of ignorance and stupidity in their own mind because they falsely think they need to take the time to understand people and why they behave the way they do. Perhaps it's easier to believe there's some merit to how and why people behave the way they do.
Quite possibly. There's no denying that chance.

So the moral of these stories is: optimism is better than pessimism, but don't completely neglect your pessimistic tendencies either.
Hmmm.. those are actually really interesting studies! I suppose it stands to reason, but those numbers are actually quite fascinating. I think you made an extremely good point, too. I suppose that pessimism can be productive under certain circumstances, as it can help add an all-important counterbalance to a person's outlook.
 

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Not to be conceited, but I might be THEE optimist. I am mostly happy, and try to make sure everyone close to me is happy. Being pessimistic takes a lot out of you, and severly limits your life in many aspects. There's a lot of positives, don't let anything fool you.

I forgot to include, just to be more clear, I know not to always expect the best. However, I never do not hope for it. I'm not naive lol
 

aeghrur

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I'm definitely a pessimist but within reason.
If I didn't study for a test, I don't expect to do well. If I do, I'll think, hey, maybe listening in class payed off.
On the other hand, if I did study, I'll think, it might be hard, but hopefully I'll do well.
Most of the time, it's the former, lol.
The reason? Because when I don't know something, such as a test being graded, I can prepare to do better next time. For that period of time where I don't know how I did, I assume it is bad so I can plan out what I need to do well, what I can do to improve next time, and so forth.
Although, I usually scrap my plans... meh, lol.

:093:
 

Ryusuta

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Not to be conceited, but I might be THEE optimist. I am mostly happy, and try to make sure everyone close to me is happy. Being pessimistic takes a lot out of you, and severly limits your life in many aspects. There's a lot of positives, don't let anything fool you.

I forgot to include, just to be more clear, I know not to always expect the best. However, I never do not hope for it. I'm not naive lol
That's a very interesting perspective, and seems to coincide quite well with the studies that Gold cited.

By way of changing the subject slightly, I had sometyhing of an open question to people that consider themselves pessimists: Do you feel that your pessimism in any way inhibits you or works against you? And, to make this sound like an actual survey form, the follow-up question: why or why not?
 

RDK

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That's a very interesting perspective, and seems to coincide quite well with the studies that Gold cited.

By way of changing the subject slightly, I had sometyhing of an open question to people that consider themselves pessimists: Do you feel that your pessimism in any way inhibits you or works against you? And, to make this sound like an actual survey form, the follow-up question: why or why not?
I'm not entirely sure I'm understanding the question. Seeing as how my pessimism is part of who I am, I don't know how it could "work against me" (or my best interests) per se.

I would assume if it did me no good I wouldn't be a pessimist. Or in other words, if I was proven wrong the majority of the time, why would I still harbor an intense dislike for the masses? :)
 

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Like RDK said, why would being pessimistic inhibit you? If it's part of who you are, you live with it. Even though I am pessimistic, I usually like who I am. I actually draw alot of my humor from my pessimistic view on most things. If it inhibited me, I'm pretty sure I'd try and change.
 

Ryusuta

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I should probably rephrase this question. What do you feel about the studies that Gold cited?
 

LordoftheMorning

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I base my outlook on life on the notion that humans, while flawed, are still good creatures at heart. I see an interconnectedness in the way the world works, and it excites me that we have such amazingly complex things as scientific marvels like the combustion engine/more advanced things, literature, and politics even exist in the first place. So I suppose that makes me extremely optimistic. I think anyone who isn't needs to develop a more powerful imagination. If you are able to make every day life "foreign", as if you were seeing through the eyes of an alien, you come to realize how epic a world we live in.

There is an extent to which optimism becomes ignorance, however, and ignorance is hell in my opinion (as I said in my sensationalism topic). Has anyone here read the book Candide, by Voltaire? It's a pretty good argument against blind optimism. Essentially, this sort of optimism is used to encourage complacency. It's vital that we acknowledge that the world is NOT perfect, but at the same time, we work to make it so.

But it is the more prudent optimism that I feel is the best outlook to take on life. Desire and anticipation often bring us more joy and more prolonged joy than the actual attainment of a goal/object. In that framework, why sacrifice your hope, your prolonged sense of happiness, just for the chance of being "pleasantly surprised", which lasts a few minutes, as Sir O said in the OP.

Hope is one of man-kind's greatest gifts. The Bible sums up the three most important virtues as "Faith, Hope, and Love (the greatest of which being Love, but Hope is in there)". There's also a lot of Greek mythology surrounding this. One of the versions of Pandora's box goes that Pandora was given a box/jar full of virtues for human kind, and she was told not to open it. When she did, the virtues all escaped and were lost save for one: Hope. And in Prometheus Bound, Prometheus blinds humans from knowing the date of their death (along with giving them fire), so that they might be ambitious and hope for the best.

From a religious standpoint, it is very easy to be optimistic because of the belief in a higher power. One knows that someone is always watching out for the world, and that you may live eternally after death. Really, I think one can't help but to hope for the best, otherwise why would you even get out of bed in the morning?

I think pessimism develops simply through exhaustion or frustration. A pessimist gives in to the discouraging news he hears, and creates a protective shell for himself with which he buffers himself from disappointment, instead attempting to draw satisfaction from "I told you this would all end in tears." This can never be real happiness, and it is foolish to deny yourself hope when it is your nature to do so and it keeps your enthusiasm and will to live.

[/SOAPBOX]
 

RDK

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If I hear the word "Bible" one more time in this thread I'm gonna go out to the nearest local church and punch the pastor.
 

illinialex24

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Optimistic: I believe that Orion will return to the Yoshi boards despite severely overreacting over a video post and drop it and become a much more reasonable poster there.

However, this would be purely naive.

Pessimistic: Believe that Orion will keep on trolling users while resenting them and holding out from the Yoshi boards because he is too embarrassed about a two stock that was posted of him.

However, although all current signs support this view, only time can tell if this will be the true future.

Realistic View: That although over time he will likely realize that most users have embarrassing videos posted of them and even embrace them, he will still be overly upset about it and will likely continue to troll the users he resents in the long run.

(If anyone wants background to the situation, please PM me before kicking me from the Debate Hall)
 

Mewter

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I guess I could call myself an optimist/pessimist depending on any situation. I would be an optimist in the long run, but mostly pessimistic in the short-term. Pessimism isn't bad, either, per se. But I would definitely not want to be blindly optimistic(I think there was a book with someone like that).
 

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♥Pessimism lead to stress. "I can't do this." "It will never work.". Saying that to yourself builds up stress which will later cause physical problems alongside the already psychological ones.

♥Optimism may lead to false hope, (and maybe in the long run a disappointment), but if an a person is really optimistic, they would know that things don't always work out and then look toward the bright side. There are obviously limits to how optimistic one should be, but it never hurts to see a glass half full then half empty.
 

Mewter

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♥Pessimism lead to stress. "I can't do this." "It will never work.". Saying that to yourself builds up stress which will later cause physical problems alongside the already psychological ones.
Or it could lead to the mentality that someone isn't good enough or trying hard enough at something already, so they'll actually try harder to achieve their goals.
Then again, I'm talking about a very mild form of pessimism.
Dictionary.com
1. the tendency to see, anticipate, or emphasize only bad or undesirable outcomes, results, conditions, problems, etc.: His pessimism about the future of our country depresses me.
2. the doctrine that the existing world is the worst of all possible worlds, or that all things naturally tend to evil.
3. the belief that the evil and pain in the world are not compensated for by goodness and happiness.
Not this one.^
 

Ryusuta

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Or it could lead to the mentality that someone isn't good enough or trying hard enough at something already, so they'll actually try harder to achieve their goals.
Then again, I'm talking about a very mild form of pessimism.

Yes, but what if a pessimistic person does improve themselves, yet fails to acknowledge that improvement, seeing only his flaws? It could lead to permanent feelings of depression and inadequacy; a feeling that no matter what the person does, it will never be good enough. To me, it seems like this could be something of a slippery slope if not kept within perspective. (Which is to say that it can certainly be kept in perspective, and that this scenario is by no means inevitable.)
 
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I'm an optimist. I've always been extremely confident of myself and of my ability to influence my environment.

In short, arrogance is a virtue.
 

LordoftheMorning

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I guess I could call myself an optimist/pessimist depending on any situation. I would be an optimist in the long run, but mostly pessimistic in the short-term. Pessimism isn't bad, either, per se. But I would definitely not want to be blindly optimistic(I think there was a book with someone like that).

That book would be Candide, by Voltaire.
 

illinialex24

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The point where your extremely arrogant within but don't show too much of it?

:093:
I think that is too far. I personally realize that I am one of the more intelligent students in my school. Students in my year above honors classes come to me often for help and I am somewhat arrogant about stuff where I am good but I also admit my own faults. That is my division, where you are true to what you are, and are only arrogant, but witty, in what you are good at.
 

aeghrur

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I think that is too far. I personally realize that I am one of the more intelligent students in my school. Students in my year above honors classes come to me often for help and I am somewhat arrogant about stuff where I am good but I also admit my own faults. That is my division, where you are true to what you are, and are only arrogant, but witty, in what you are good at.
I personally think that isn't too far because if you truly think your the best but don't actually show it, it makes them simply confident as you don't see that arrogance and really helps a lot. Of course, your right that it does make criticism harder to take in... which is definitely a bad thing. =/

:093:
 

RDK

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I personally have no problem externalizing my superiority via arrogance, especially when the people around me are complete morons.
 

illinialex24

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I personally have no problem externalizing my superiority via arrogance, especially when the people around me are complete morons.
See thats the thing. You will realize that the people around you sometime aren't as moronic as you think. You may still be smarter, and often will, but you will realize their views are valid. Completely moronic statements should be vilified and people with a major history of moronic statements should be made an example of, but the rest should be treated with respect.
 

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This has turned from a debate on optimism vs pessimism to an informal pool room discussion on arrogance. I hope this isn't what happens to most threads in here.
 

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I think that optimism makes more sense because if you look on the bright side of things all the time you are usually in a better mood, and even if something goes wrong, then you can look forward for better possiblilities.
 

illinialex24

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I think that optimism makes more sense because if you look on the bright side of things all the time you are usually in a better mood, and even if something goes wrong, then you can look forward for better possiblilities.
Or you can be taken advantage of because you believe people will do the right thing. There are so many instances where bad things happen because people are too optimistic. But if you are too pessimistic, you don't enjoy life. Its a balance. Either extreme is stupid.
 
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