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Online Play Thread: Tips, FAQ, & Common Misconceptions
- Thread starter ShortFuse
- Start date
Yes in the case of corporate LANs and more complex routers and ISPs with multiple static IPs. But a common household doesn't have mutiple static IPs and the router don't create a subnet, they DMZ a single host computer.
Yes, router will drop unsolicited TCP/UDP packets but once the a request is made ports are opened on both sides. If you access a remote website on port 80, a local port is randomly selected, for example, let's say 11532. Once information is sent to your IP on port 11532, it's forwarded to your computer. You don't have to forward that port. The same thing happens with the Wii, but on UDP. UDP is considered connectionless because it doesn't maintain a constant connection. Packets are just sent withouth header and without acknowledgement. In TCP, packets are verified, thus a connection. UDP is used for streaming information and bypassing the acknowledge with is most useful in ideally lag-free environments (gaming).
As I stated as you either glanced over or purposedly ignored, some routers disable their routing features after setting a DMZ meaning no one the network will have internet. Again, I said some not all. But what I was saying about breaking your internet is true. Any device/application that uses incoming TCP or UDP ports will not work correctly if you have DMZ set with your router. All those ports will go straight to the DMZ host.
Things like Bittorrent (TCP 6881), Online games, FTP Servers (TCP 21), HTTP Server (80), HTTPS Servers (443), Remote Desktop Connection (TCP 5631) will no longer work or have trouble. Video streaming services like Orb and Slingbox will no longer work since they require port forwarding. Read up on DMZ some more and maybe you're learn that setting a single host as the DMZ means that all incoming TCP and UDP ports are forward to that host.[/QUOTE]
Get a clue, I'm a Network Administrator and Computer Programmer. I code network applications from scratch. I have no DMZ in my network and I have no ports forwarded to my Wii or DS and Wi-Fi connection works fine. I guess it's magic.
Matsuyama
Smash Cadet
ShortFuse, how sure are you it's a direct P2P between the players? And it's also weird that a person can host three others. I honestly don't think it's P2P, like I said in my previous post. Perhaps more clarification and in-depth explanation would help me.
TehNomad
Smash Rookie
With regards to the hosting issue, what WC3/DotA:A professional leagues do is have a neutral spectator host. I don't know if this would be possible in SSBB (I haven't touched WiFi yet) but it would probably be a good option if it were possible
(WC3 custom games directly connect you to the host, similar to Nintendo's system)
(WC3 custom games directly connect you to the host, similar to Nintendo's system)
There's no problem. You can use UDP Multicasting to do this. UDP just broadcasts data. It's how the protocol works. You set what IPs to broadcast to. There's no acknowledgement of the packets needed.
via Google:
Multicast - A process which allows a server to send one stream to multiple recipients. This is different from traditional unicast streaming media, where each user connects separately to a server.
To be added to the FAQ:
"Why does sometimes when I press a button or move the analog stick in a Wi-Fi match it doesn't register or comes out really late? / Why do I freeze in Wi-Fi matches?"
In a nutshell, UDP packets are lost.
Here's the explanation:
The way the network works is that it sends UDP packets. UDP connection aren't like regular connections (TCP connections, like webpages and stuff)
computer A sends a request to computer B
computer B sends an acknowledgement (ACK) of the request and some data
computer A receives some and sends another ACK and asks for more
and that's how it works, to make sure no information is lost.
"okay go"
"k, here"
"got it, now send me this"
"okay, sending"
like that, but that's TCP. there's latency in having to wait to see if they got the information and pausing between transmissions. UDP is different. UDP just sends stuff saying
"okay, send me the whole thing"
"here..................................................................................sent"
so you have two UDP connections
Player A is sending his data to Player A and Player B is sending his data to Player A
now, since there's no acknowledgement of what's being sent, things that get lost don't get repeated
as to why things get lost in transmission, i'll get to it in a minute. but what can get lost are things like:
"I am holding down A"
"I held down left"
"I no longer am holding down left"
Things like that can get lost and there's no verification of getting the packets like in TCP. It make take the next packet for the game to realize that, you are no longer press the analog stick that way, or you held the analog stick before press A and you want a tilt instead of a smash.
Why do packets get lost? This is actually not that uncommon with Wi-Fi. If there is interference or you're far from the router, it's common to lose packets. In TCP connections, if a packet gets lost, it's resent. The problem is the Wii isn't prioritizing that packets get sent successfully for the sake of less lag.
So if player A is on a somewhat poor wifi connection or a wifi connection with interference he might not send OR receive all the packets successfully. And that's why you don't get movement sometimes
"Why does sometimes when I press a button or move the analog stick in a Wi-Fi match it doesn't register or comes out really late? / Why do I freeze in Wi-Fi matches?"
In a nutshell, UDP packets are lost.
Here's the explanation:
The way the network works is that it sends UDP packets. UDP connection aren't like regular connections (TCP connections, like webpages and stuff)
computer A sends a request to computer B
computer B sends an acknowledgement (ACK) of the request and some data
computer A receives some and sends another ACK and asks for more
and that's how it works, to make sure no information is lost.
"okay go"
"k, here"
"got it, now send me this"
"okay, sending"
like that, but that's TCP. there's latency in having to wait to see if they got the information and pausing between transmissions. UDP is different. UDP just sends stuff saying
"okay, send me the whole thing"
"here..................................................................................sent"
so you have two UDP connections
Player A is sending his data to Player A and Player B is sending his data to Player A
now, since there's no acknowledgement of what's being sent, things that get lost don't get repeated
as to why things get lost in transmission, i'll get to it in a minute. but what can get lost are things like:
"I am holding down A"
"I held down left"
"I no longer am holding down left"
Things like that can get lost and there's no verification of getting the packets like in TCP. It make take the next packet for the game to realize that, you are no longer press the analog stick that way, or you held the analog stick before press A and you want a tilt instead of a smash.
Why do packets get lost? This is actually not that uncommon with Wi-Fi. If there is interference or you're far from the router, it's common to lose packets. In TCP connections, if a packet gets lost, it's resent. The problem is the Wii isn't prioritizing that packets get sent successfully for the sake of less lag.
So if player A is on a somewhat poor wifi connection or a wifi connection with interference he might not send OR receive all the packets successfully. And that's why you don't get movement sometimes
I have to ask, how is it determined who 'hosts' the game?I've created the game room all four times in the following scenarios, yet the results are a bit different.Also, none of us were using uTorrent or other bandwidth hogging programs during this, and my own Wii is barely 5 feet away from my wireless router (A Buffalo WRT54g, I think the model number is)
First game - Me and other player on my Wii against friend and his brother on another Wii, same town...Lag is there, but it's button lag and therefore somewhat manageable.
Second game - Me and other player on my Wii against different friend on his own Wii, same town...again, lag is there, perhaps even less than last game.
Third game - All three parties together, sans friend's brother from first scenario...Here is where it gets bad. The lag is so horrible it's like watching a slideshow, or playing Brawl in Slo-mo mode, except not. We try having another person create a room and 'host', but the lag is still horrible.
Fourth game - Party from second game gets frustrated, leaves. My party and the party from first game go on to play 4-6 matches with minimal lag as illustrated in first and second game.
What went wrong here?I can't speak about the party from the first example, as I don't know where they keep their Wii in relation to the router as I haven't been over their house in a while and such, but I've set up the second parties wireless network myself and his Wii is in the same room as his wireless router. As for ISPs, my house uses a Comcast cable connection (Probably standard cable, I think my upload rate is 600kb/s) and the other two parties use Verizon DSL..I know that one of them has a 600kb/s upload rate as well..
..Actually, that's strange, I just ran a broadband speed test to verify at dslreports.com on my PC and it returned an error of sorts when testing the upload speed and it said my ISP has upload compression and my upload speed may be inaccurately displayed.I'm no network admin or anything, but I'm not exactly computer-illiterate either and I've never heard of anything like this...unless it has something to do with Comcast trying to filter torrent uploads and some such, that is...could it have anything to do with my Brawl lag?
First game - Me and other player on my Wii against friend and his brother on another Wii, same town...Lag is there, but it's button lag and therefore somewhat manageable.
Second game - Me and other player on my Wii against different friend on his own Wii, same town...again, lag is there, perhaps even less than last game.
Third game - All three parties together, sans friend's brother from first scenario...Here is where it gets bad. The lag is so horrible it's like watching a slideshow, or playing Brawl in Slo-mo mode, except not. We try having another person create a room and 'host', but the lag is still horrible.
Fourth game - Party from second game gets frustrated, leaves. My party and the party from first game go on to play 4-6 matches with minimal lag as illustrated in first and second game.
What went wrong here?I can't speak about the party from the first example, as I don't know where they keep their Wii in relation to the router as I haven't been over their house in a while and such, but I've set up the second parties wireless network myself and his Wii is in the same room as his wireless router. As for ISPs, my house uses a Comcast cable connection (Probably standard cable, I think my upload rate is 600kb/s) and the other two parties use Verizon DSL..I know that one of them has a 600kb/s upload rate as well..
..Actually, that's strange, I just ran a broadband speed test to verify at dslreports.com on my PC and it returned an error of sorts when testing the upload speed and it said my ISP has upload compression and my upload speed may be inaccurately displayed.I'm no network admin or anything, but I'm not exactly computer-illiterate either and I've never heard of anything like this...unless it has something to do with Comcast trying to filter torrent uploads and some such, that is...could it have anything to do with my Brawl lag?
Expanding more on what I've said about about the dropping of packets. If the seemss to run at okay speed and would sometimes have speed hitches (as in it slows down for a bit and then rapidly speeds up) this is probably due to packet loss.
The problem is in the quality of the signal. WiFi might not be the only factors. if you have a DSL installed and don't have DSL filters installed or bad filters you can get significant packet loss.
I've played somebody in Australia and it was fine. We both had LAN adapters. Yes, it was slow but it was manageable because the speed was constant and there was no controller lag.
mogwaimon, where are you? I'll look into Comcast but Verizon DSL isn't that bad. Though the cheap verizon dsl plan is 128kbps meaning 16KBPS which could affect speed. also, just because your in home environment is ideal doesn't mean you opponent's is. I was playing somebody from Kentucky yesterday and there was really no lag and it was really fast. Some people in boston I played were laggy and lagged input. With one of them the connection was orange. The only person I remember who I get a GREEN signal strength is in Virginia so being closer doesn't guarantee less lag or better signal strength.
The problem is in the quality of the signal. WiFi might not be the only factors. if you have a DSL installed and don't have DSL filters installed or bad filters you can get significant packet loss.
I've played somebody in Australia and it was fine. We both had LAN adapters. Yes, it was slow but it was manageable because the speed was constant and there was no controller lag.
mogwaimon, where are you? I'll look into Comcast but Verizon DSL isn't that bad. Though the cheap verizon dsl plan is 128kbps meaning 16KBPS which could affect speed. also, just because your in home environment is ideal doesn't mean you opponent's is. I was playing somebody from Kentucky yesterday and there was really no lag and it was really fast. Some people in boston I played were laggy and lagged input. With one of them the connection was orange. The only person I remember who I get a GREEN signal strength is in Virginia so being closer doesn't guarantee less lag or better signal strength.
Card
Smash Lord
Ok ShortFuse your information is excellent and all... but I think you should add one final section to your enormous F.A.Q...
"What steps should I take to ensure that I will have lag-free games?"
1)
2)
3)
4)
5)
You've got a whole slew of information, with True and False, and tons of useful information. Not to mention there is a lot of back-and-forth going on, and many people seem to be confused as to what information is right or wrong. But what I (along with I am guessing everyone else) needs is just a list of what things we should do with our Network to ensure the OPTIMUM settings and have lag-free games. Whether it be use a LAN Adapter or keep your Router 5-feet away from your Wii, don't use wireless controllers, open ports, down your firewall, etc.. etc... we just need an easy to read list of everything
So if it isn't too much to ask...
Thanks in advance!
http://www.nintendo.com/consumer/systems/wii/en_na/connectingOnline.jsp?entryId=manualSetup
Card, I'll see if I can. I would like to educate a bit though because there aren't perfectly ideal settings because they are a lot of variables (like internet speed, how far is too far) but I think I can come up with something.
Matsuyama
Smash Cadet
Yeah, Card, I was about to post the same exact thing. Also, be sure to include how "fast", or slow, an internet has to be to receive optimal virtual lag-less in terms or kB, if it's not too much trouble of course. That'd help people understand their Internet isn't too slow or whatnot.
I'm in central MA, about an hour away from Boston...as for Comcast, now that I think of it, one of the aforementioned friends connection tends to be very very crappy if he's using torrents or other downloading, on Verizon, whereas on my Comcast I can be doing pretty much anything and have a decent internet connection (Well, obviously I don't download while I game online, but still =P)
ObeseNightmare
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Mar 10, 2008
- Messages
- 64
I've been trying to get this point across for a while... especially the "wii in another room causes lag" theory which I KNOW is true.
Thanks.
I'll just assume that similar steps are used for the LAN adapter, since I don't use wireless.
Yeah, Verizon offers ADSL which is asymmetrical (what the A stands for). As you upload, your download speed goes down and vice versa
You can test signal strength of your Wi-Fi adapter by pinging your Wii (from a computer on ethernet).
I also recommend setting you Wii to use a static IP somewhere because 192.168.x.2-192.168.x.9 or 192.168.x.201-253
There's no technical benefit to statically assigning the IP, but if you want to enable QoS on your router or want to do ping testing, it's easier if the IP doesn't change. The range I specified are usually not issued by your router's DHCP, so you're less likely to get an IP conflict.
Oh yeah, and if you're still using the default channel, change that, unless you know there's no traffic on that channel. Wi-Fi channel collision can cause dropped packets (input lag)
Yea, I switched my channel from 1 to 11 last night...haven't played any of my friends yet, but I did a few With Anyone matches with minimal lag...and even then I'd forgotten to shut down uTorrent so my bandwidth was being used XD I think it's just my friends connections, coz my roommate uses my Brawl on Wifi sometimes and he says there's no lag With Anyone..
I'll try assigning the Wii a static IP later, but I might put it off until May. I'm currently unemployed, so I can't afford a LAN adapter right now, but in May I might get a 600 dollar check from the IRS (I guess Bush is doing SOMETHING right =P) and when I do I'm getting that, a HDTV with game mode built in, and GTA4
EDIT: I ran the ping test on my Wii, it gave me these results
192.168.11.205
Result 1st : 64 bytes from 192.168.11.205: icmp_seq=0 ttl=64 time=2.9 ms
2nd : 64 bytes from 192.168.11.205: icmp_seq=1 ttl=64 time=2.9 ms
3rd : 64 bytes from 192.168.11.205: icmp_seq=2 ttl=64 time=3.6 ms
That's good, right?
I'll try assigning the Wii a static IP later, but I might put it off until May. I'm currently unemployed, so I can't afford a LAN adapter right now, but in May I might get a 600 dollar check from the IRS (I guess Bush is doing SOMETHING right =P) and when I do I'm getting that, a HDTV with game mode built in, and GTA4
EDIT: I ran the ping test on my Wii, it gave me these results
192.168.11.205
Result 1st : 64 bytes from 192.168.11.205: icmp_seq=0 ttl=64 time=2.9 ms
2nd : 64 bytes from 192.168.11.205: icmp_seq=1 ttl=64 time=2.9 ms
3rd : 64 bytes from 192.168.11.205: icmp_seq=2 ttl=64 time=3.6 ms
That's good, right?
nmaster64
Smash Cadet
So then, I have a question...
You bring up a good point about matches being direct and not using Nintendo/GameSpy's servers...
But then why is EVERYBODY having lag it seems? I've got an uber internet connection and my router is less than 3 feet from my Wii, and I've yet to play a match without lag. And it's not just me, ALL my friends say they have the same issue with all their matches...
If this isn't fixable on Nintendo/GameSpy's end, then does that mean there is no such thing as a non-laggy Brawl match?
You bring up a good point about matches being direct and not using Nintendo/GameSpy's servers...
But then why is EVERYBODY having lag it seems? I've got an uber internet connection and my router is less than 3 feet from my Wii, and I've yet to play a match without lag. And it's not just me, ALL my friends say they have the same issue with all their matches...
If this isn't fixable on Nintendo/GameSpy's end, then does that mean there is no such thing as a non-laggy Brawl match?
mogwaimon, that ping test is good. A lan adapter would probably shave off 1ms which isn't major in terms of latency. You can do a packet signal test by doing a ping but add -t
cmd /k ping 192.168.11.205 -t
after maybe 2-3 minutes press Ctrl + C and it should say the say the % of packets lost and average latency.
nmaster64, you're at a North Carolina State University? You would be sharing your connection with a bunch of others and perhaps your connection isn't prioritized. If you're not in a University, how is your Wii setup?
And yeah, I have had near lagless matches. The guy I was playing yesterday is in central Jersey (30-40 miles from me) and has the same ISP and has his Wii in the same room as his router. That was practically little/no lag. I was powershield parrying a bunch of attacks.
cmd /k ping 192.168.11.205 -t
after maybe 2-3 minutes press Ctrl + C and it should say the say the % of packets lost and average latency.
nmaster64, you're at a North Carolina State University? You would be sharing your connection with a bunch of others and perhaps your connection isn't prioritized. If you're not in a University, how is your Wii setup?
And yeah, I have had near lagless matches. The guy I was playing yesterday is in central Jersey (30-40 miles from me) and has the same ISP and has his Wii in the same room as his router. That was practically little/no lag. I was powershield parrying a bunch of attacks.
Axelguy4realz
Smash Cadet
what does TCP and UDP mean?
IWontGetOverTheDam
Smash Lord
Great thread. 
I ran the test three times, first time I forgot to turn the Wii on, so I had a small packet loss, but the subsequent two tests had a 0% packet loss, with the ping fluctuating anywhere from 2-10 ms, which is pretty good. It's gotta be the other people I'm connecting to, then, since my connection seems to check out pretty well
Yojimbo
Smash Journeyman
I've done most of this stuff and I've gotten a bit of aid. I still get around a five second delay in all of the matches and its awful to adjust to this.
nmaster64
Smash Cadet
First post needs some tips for how to improve connection issues.
I'm using a Linksys WRT54Gv2 with DD-WRTv23SP1 firmware by the way (aka great firmware that lets me do whatever the hell I please to my router). If anyone has tips on how to help my connection, I'd greatly appreciate...
I'm using a Linksys WRT54Gv2 with DD-WRTv23SP1 firmware by the way (aka great firmware that lets me do whatever the hell I please to my router). If anyone has tips on how to help my connection, I'd greatly appreciate...
You should try enabling QoS for your Wii.
nmaster64
Smash Cadet
I tried that and my internet connection became ****...
Surgo
Smash Apprentice
Is the exact UDP range Brawl uses known? Or at least something a little better than from 1 to 2^16?
Read the first port. The ports are random and they are outgoing UDP. You don't need to map/forward them
TurranMC
Smash Rookie
Ignore this
TurranMC
Smash Rookie
Holy crap. Just to try it I fowarded every single port(1 to 65535) to my Wii and I was able to get into a "With Anyone" match! But of course I can't keep my Wii like that can I? Would that mean that the two computers on my router are gonna go slow as hell? Well, at least this brings me closer to solving my problem.
