On The Customized Online Play Problem.

[Legitimate Ted]

I've noticed a few other threads commenting on how equipment should be available for competitive play, and I have to say I agree with some of them. Customized characters seem like it would make the game much more fun. The problem here, is that it's never going to happen online. For Glory will never have this (just because Sakurai says so), but maybe we could get some other servers up to run Smash 4? I should elaborate:
We get Nintendo to push out an update that allows for online server selection (kind of like mineraft, but with a premade list). This would have several effects, all of which would be great, I should think. TOs would be able to host tournaments online without SDing just to see the match, replays would always be available, (I know i've aready said this, but for good measure) many more tounaments would be online, custom characters could be available, and we might just get less lag.
Maybe the lag is just me, but i still think it's a good idea.

TL:DR - Hosting smash servers is something we should get nintendo to let us do.

 

[Altea77]

Equipment shouldn't be allowed in competitive play imo, but custom moves should.

 

[Legitimate Ted]

Equipment shouldn't be allowed in competitive play imo, but custom moves should.

Why not equipment? It has the potential to balance everything. Then someone will play with three Vampire Items, and someone else will have a way around that. It's the biggest game of rock-paper-scissors scince pokemon Gen VI came out.

 

[Thinkaman]

Someone else take this one. My shift is over.

 

[Legitimate Ted]

Someone else take this one. My shift is over.

Come again?

 

[Altea77]

Why not equipment? It has the potential to balance everything. Then someone will play with three Vampire Items, and someone else will have a way around that. It's the biggest game of rock-paper-scissors scince pokemon Gen VI came out.

Because equipment unlocking is completely random and no two games will have the same options. Not to mention the ridiculous abilities you can get like having the ability to kill someone at 0% in one hit if you are also at 0%, and starting the match with items, or having your power, defense, or speed so high that the match can't be taken seriously. It's a fun idea, but not for top competitive play.

The only way equipment could work is if it is used to balance characters stats, with no extra stuff like starting the match with a bomb. But that would require pre made sets of equipment that everyone would have to have for all characters which is impossible (or very very time consuming) since equipment unlocking is completely random.

 

[Legitimate Ted]

Because equipment unlocking is completely random and no two games will have the same options. Not to mention the ridiculous abilities you can get like having the ability to kill someone at 0% in one hit if you are also at 0%, and starting the match with items, or having your power, defense, or speed so high that the match can't be taken seriously. It's a fun idea, but not for top competitive play.

The only way equipment could work is if it is used to balance characters stats, with no extra stuff like starting the match with a bomb. But that would require pre made sets of equipment that everyone would have to have for all characters which is impossible (or very very time consuming) since equipment unlocking is completely random.

Hmm. The way i see it, random isn't THAT bad. Pokemon stats are randomly generated as well, and that never stopped anyone, really. Maybe we just ban all of the badges with Held Item effects, and it'll be fine. There's a way to combat everything else.

 

[warriorman222]

I think they should have just copied SSF2's online(with the addition to modify amounts of players and removal for need to log in each time). It would be so much better than what we have now, by miles. Just PM your friend a pass and you can play with them. Or effectively FG with whoever sees you first.

 

[Legitimate Ted]

I think they should have just copied SSF2's online(with the addition to modify amounts of players and removal for need to log in each time). It would be so much better than what we have now, by miles. Just PM your friend a pass and you can play with them. Or effectively FG with whoever sees you first.

I'm not entirely familiar with SSF2, I'll have to go do that sometime.

 

[Altea77]

Hmm. The way i see it, random isn't THAT bad. Pokemon stats are randomly generated as well, and that never stopped anyone, really. Maybe we just ban all of the badges with Held Item effects, and it'll be fine. There's a way to combat everything else.

Yes but I don't think Pokemon is really something you can get seriously competitive about.

 

[Thinkaman]

Yes but I don't think Pokemon is really something you can get seriously competitive about.

Oh no. Not like this.

Everyone, save yourselves! Flee, you fools!

 

[warriorman222]

Hmm. The way i see it, random isn't THAT bad. Pokemon stats are randomly generated as well, and that never stopped anyone, really. Maybe we just ban all of the badges with Held Item effects, and it'll be fine. There's a way to combat everything else.

Pokemon stats can be manipulated. You have like lots of control with it being able to manipulate your chances form 1 in millions to 1/32 to get perfection, and the items to get them require little gameplay. In addition, there is TRADING, to completely negate the work and have someone else do it for you. And POWERSAVES, allowing you to instantly create perfect Pokemon. They are random, but nowehre near the caliber of equipment. I played Pokemon half-competetively, I know how it works.

Yes but I don't think Pokemon is really something you can get seriously competitive about.

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

Allow me to lead you here, kind sir.

I'm not entirely familiar with SSF2, I'll have to go do that sometime.

Basically, you create an account on a site, you log in via the game itself, make a room with or without a password, and with a 4char or higher name, choose your rules, fight with up to 4 people, or join a room. For whatever reason you can't change this to 3 or 2, but yeah.

 

[Legitimate Ted]

You can try.

 

[warriorman222]

You can try.

Try what? Equipment? Of course. Changing it to less than 4 people? yes, but it never works. Competetive Pokemon? been There, Done that, it's cool.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Honestly smash 4 is so overwhelmingly hurt by any amount of lag that I'm not sure it matters what is available in the online modes. It was pretty alarming just how much worse this game got for us just adding 3-5 frames of lag to it; all that stuff about rolling being good, defense being better than offense in general, etc.. all made sense in that context even though it's incredibly untrue offline. For a game so precisely balanced around absolutely zero lag, I'm not even sure why online exists.

In terms of general gameplay though, yes, custom moves are amazing and drastically improve the game while equipment is a pretty bad system that has numerous deep, systemic flaws (part of it is that not everyone can possibly have access to all of the same stuff due to the random stat generation).

 

[Legitimate Ted]

Honestly smash 4 is so overwhelmingly hurt by any amount of lag that I'm not sure it matters what is available in the online modes. It was pretty alarming just how much worse this game got for us just adding 3-5 frames of lag to it; all that stuff about rolling being good, defense being better than offense in general, etc.. all made sense in that context even though it's incredibly untrue offline. For a game so precisely balanced around absolutely zero lag, I'm not even sure why online exists.

In terms of general gameplay though, yes, custom moves are amazing and drastically improve the game while equipment is a pretty bad system that has numerous deep, systemic flaws (part of it is that not everyone can possibly have access to all of the same stuff due to the random stat generation).

The random stat genertion sucks, okay, fine. I give up that particular arguement. I still think we should find a way to incorporate Equipment regardless of the random. Ban certain effects sure, go ahead, just not all of them. They're not all bad, as most of them have something else that can counteract it if used corrrectly.

 

[warriorman222]

Honestly smash 4 is so overwhelmingly hurt by any amount of lag that I'm not sure it matters what is available in the online modes. It was pretty alarming just how much worse this game got for us just adding 3-5 frames of lag to it; all that stuff about rolling being good, defense being better than offense in general, etc.. all made sense in that context even though it's incredibly untrue offline. For a game so precisely balanced around absolutely zero lag, I'm not even sure why online exists

Yeah. that little bit of landing lag given and that little bit of roll vulnerability just turned the online metagame to s***. Look at SSF2's online: Even with 7FPS fights sometimes, people don't roll spam, not even the Naruto(dash attack->utilt spam-> Rasenshuriken-> K.O) and Marth noobs(Fthow or Uthrow chaingrab -> tipper Fsmash kills), and if they do they'll usually get Dolphin Slash tippered and die at 40%, Rasenshurikened and die at 30%, Giant Punched and die at 20%... You can land so many hard reads on rolling that game, EVEN in lag, that one accidental roll near an enemy, if predicted, leads to doom (I 0-deathed a DK as Sora because the lag made him roll, not running shield. I felt bad and SD'd, which took my last stock, but it wasn't even his fault, he would have won If I didn't land Flowmotion-Down).

Meanwhile in SSB4, 70% of people roll spam at one point in the match, and succeed, as once as Shulk Mac rolled through all 3 spins of my Dsmash, before missing a punish becuase i roleld, then I missed my dmsash... continues for a minute until i spot dodge once, bthrow him, bair him and win.

Then again SSF2 is made for the competitive, where airdodge and ledge grab out of tumble doesn't exist, only Black Mage has good recovery (Mega Man's is considered good, but it's much lower and WAY slower than Rush Coil and sustaining one hit kills you), where some characters can be juggled forever, where kill percents are ridiculously spread out (DK: 20%. Sora: 200%.), and where consistent balance patches are brought out, berfing only the bad things, rather than the whole character(let Naruto's clones be killable, fix the Giant Punch math error, get rid of MM's bull dthrow, fix Marth's tippers not being there 75% of the time).

So it comes at no surprise to me. But really screw roll spam.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Honestly smash 4 is so overwhelmingly hurt by any amount of lag that I'm not sure it matters what is available in the online modes. It was pretty alarming just how much worse this game got for us just adding 3-5 frames of lag to it; all that stuff about rolling being good, defense being better than offense in general, etc.. all made sense in that context even though it's incredibly untrue offline. For a game so precisely balanced around absolutely zero lag, I'm not even sure why online exists.

In terms of general gameplay though, yes, custom moves are amazing and drastically improve the game while equipment is a pretty bad system that has numerous deep, systemic flaws (part of it is that not everyone can possibly have access to all of the same stuff due to the random stat generation).

Isn't that true for fighting games in general though? Smash isn't even really a series that depends on execution-heavy combos for the most part. How do Street Fighter or BlazBlue players cope?

 

[Legitimate Ted]

Isn't that true for fighting games in general though? Smash isn't even really a series that depends on execution-heavy combos for the most part. How do Street Fighter or BlazBlue players cope?

What do you get when you cross an elephant and a rhino? (see sig)

 

[warriorman222]

What do you get when you cross an elephant and a rhino?

An elephino

But what do you mean?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

What do you get when you cross an elephant and a rhino?

A monstrosity.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Isn't that true for fighting games in general though? Smash isn't even really a series that depends on execution-heavy combos for the most part. How do Street Fighter or BlazBlue players cope?

It is true that all fighters suffer more from lag than other genres, and while smash's combo game doesn't suffer nearly as much, the specific frame data of the defensive options is kinda on a threshold. Stuff is just barely too slow for spamming it to be a good idea; the couple of frames extra it takes to deal with it online messes everything up. The game didn't have to be this way; it's not an intrinsic property of a smash styled fighter. It's just how this particular game is built (and, while 4's netcode is worlds better than Brawl's, it's still substandard for the genre).

Incidentally, I was talking to Thinkaman about this yesterday, and he commented that a lot of people who make these comments about how slow and defensive 4 are may have a similar explanation that's actually innocent. Since this game is so lag sensitive, players who play on laggy old HDTVs will experience many of the same symptoms. If you're used to it, it's invisible too; the game just feels so much slower and more defensive because of a few frames of lag you could never possibly notice unless you're used to playing offline on quality displays. It's really interesting how things like that play out when frame datas are set barely over balance thresholds.

 

[warriorman222]

It is true that all fighters suffer more from lag than other genres, and while smash's combo game doesn't suffer nearly as much, the specific frame data of the defensive options is kinda on a threshold. Stuff is just barely too slow for spamming it to be a good idea; the couple of frames extra it takes to deal with it online messes everything up. The game didn't have to be this way; it's not an intrinsic property of a smash styled fighter. It's just how this particular game is built (and, while 4's netcode is worlds better than Brawl's, it's still substandard for the genre).

Incidentally, I was talking to Thinkaman about this yesterday, and he commented that a lot of people who make these comments about how slow and defensive 4 are may have a similar explanation that's actually innocent. Since this game is so lag sensitive, players who play on laggy old HDTVs will experience many of the same symptoms. If you're used to it, it's invisible too; the game just feels so much slower and more defensive because of a few frames of lag you could never possibly notice unless you're used to playing offline on quality displays. It's really interesting how things like that play out when frame datas are set barely over balance thresholds.

That makes sense. The game may seem slow because of a sheen of lag you never noticed. Maybe that's why I didn't understand how people could say the game was slow when I haven't had many laggy matches on the Wii U.

 

[Legitimate Ted]

It is true that all fighters suffer more from lag than other genres, and while smash's combo game doesn't suffer nearly as much, the specific frame data of the defensive options is kinda on a threshold. Stuff is just barely too slow for spamming it to be a good idea; the couple of frames extra it takes to deal with it online messes everything up. The game didn't have to be this way; it's not an intrinsic property of a smash styled fighter. It's just how this particular game is built (and, while 4's netcode is worlds better than Brawl's, it's still substandard for the genre).

Incidentally, I was talking to Thinkaman about this yesterday, and he commented that a lot of people who make these comments about how slow and defensive 4 are may have a similar explanation that's actually innocent. Since this game is so lag sensitive, players who play on laggy old HDTVs will experience many of the same symptoms. If you're used to it, it's invisible too; the game just feels so much slower and more defensive because of a few frames of lag you could never possibly notice unless you're used to playing offline on quality displays. It's really interesting how things like that play out when frame datas are set barely over balance thresholds.

There's always a way to fix these kinds of things. I don't know what the solution to this one is, but we'll get there someday.

 

[Raijinken]

The issue with allowing even custom moves online is that they're (in my opinion, inexplicably) tied to the exact same system as equipment. Without an overhaul to that system, you can't allow one without the other. And while the moves are fine, finite, and pretty balanced (best we can tell), equipment is random, unlimited, and unregulatable.

 

[Sleek Media]

I don't see why they can't add new variations of For Fun and For Glory. We already know they're adding a tournament mode, so what's to stop them? Write Nintendo an email and let em know what you want.

 

[warriorman222]

The issue with allowing even custom moves online is that they're (in my opinion, inexplicably) tied to the exact same system as equipment. Without an overhaul to that system, you can't allow one without the other. And while the moves are fine, finite, and pretty balanced (best we can tell), equipment is random, unlimited, and unregulatable.

It's their own fault that Custom moves can't be allowed. People say it was a huge waste of time and encourage people to never use them and all...

If someone out there likes customs, it's not a waste of time making them. It's a waste of time ensuring they would never be used online. Thanks a lot Nintendo. Now I'm crippled simply for wanting to use a feature you put in!

And you're right. Unless they change the system to seperate customs and equips while allowing them to be used together, either they'll definitely stay unusable online which will give people a quick, easy, almost inarguable reason as to why they should be banned, or we'll lose something to get them usable, which will inflate the adamancy to ban them in tourneys.

IF I had made that system I would have split the Wii U custom button in half and added another for 3DS, one showing a wrench (moves and outfits), another showing a sword (powers and equips). You could have one on, the other off, both on , both off. You could have crazy stats on your custom sets (+200 all Brawn Badge courtesy of Datel, Crit and Vampire), yet when you go to tourneys that little sword is off, the wrench on, Miis can wear their outfits, everyone can use custom moves, and the equips already on the set is doing nothing. No cheating, one less logistical ban reason, customs online. Everybody wins!

If someone who doesn't know how to drive yet can think of that, I don't see why Sakurai didn't do that. Oh wait, the game, like each other in the series, was rushed. Let's give him a break people.

tl;dr Customs weren't a waste, making them never used was. I'd split the button in half, one for equips and powers, another for customs, hats and outfits and allow them to be enabled seperately. No cheating and less reasons to ban customs since they'd likely be online.

 

[Raijinken]

I agree. Though it may be pushing it to say "not being online is almost inarguable support for banning", when online (well, For Glory) also only uses Final Destination.

A split like that would certainly be the ideal way to solve the issue. In the meantime, though, we have the Custom Move Project that can help make customs more appealing to tournament operators.

 

[warriorman222]

I agree. Though it may be pushing it to say "not being online is almost inarguable support for banning", when online (well, For Glory) also only uses Final Destination.

A split like that would certainly be the ideal way to solve the issue. In the meantime, though, we have the Custom Move Project that can help make customs more appealing to tournament operators.

I mean inarguable not because of the reason, but because when someone is dense enough to believe and constantly support that, you know they're likely impossible to argue, debate or in extreme cases reason with. SOme people might say because even Skaurai said it's cheating, so it shouldn't be considered. I'll tell them that he mans a combination of min-maxed equips online. I'd tell them Imagine the cheaters using +200 all powersaved brawn badges imported from 3DS(each of my FC friends have at least 1 of those, and a Protection and Agility badge of the same, even though it's redundant since each of them max out all 3 stats alone with no drawback), and Thoron+, Spirit Bomb Dense Charge Shot or even Power Bow. OHKO!!!! Again, it's their own flawed system that forces them to ban equipment. Custom moves is just a victim in all of this.

And Amazing Ampharos's project is amazing, but I decided to unlock all of them on the Wii U, since my 3DS died, got lost, and the charger stopped working all in 1 day, while Sm4sh was in it. Bad luck is an understatement.

 

[Raijinken]

I mean inarguable not because of the reason, but because when someone is dense enough to believe and constantly support that, you know they're likely impossible to argue, debate or in extreme cases reason with. SOme people might say because even Skaurai said it's cheating, so it shouldn't be considered. I'll tell them that he mans a combination of min-maxed equips online. I'd tell them Imagine the cheaters using +200 all powersaved brawn badges imported from 3DS(each of my FC friends have at least 1 of those, and a Protection and Agility badge of the same, even though it's redundant since each of them max out all 3 stats alone with no drawback), and Thoron+, Spirit Bomb Dense Charge Shot or even Power Bow. OHKO!!!! Again, it's their own flawed system that forces them to ban equipment. Custom moves is just a victim in all of this.

And Amazing Ampharos's project is amazing, but I decided to unlock all of them on the Wii U, since my 3DS died, got lost, and the charger stopped working all in 1 day, while Sm4sh was in it. Bad luck is an understatement.

Know that feeling. I unlocked 'em all on both systems since I'm a completionist, but it's still a useful system for spreading their use. It's just a shame that it's so hard to push for customs' use because Nandai implemented it sub-optimally.

 

[Conda]

You can try.

YOU can try this. You can't tell tournament organizers to go ahead and try stuff like this - they have busy lives and organizing tournaments is serious work. If you - or anyone - has an alternate ruleset idea, you have to try it. Literally - YOU have to try it. Make it a thing. Show us how good it is, with evidence of the success of the tournaments. Then we can discuss things. Until then, it's not a good idea to theorize new rulesets and pressure others to go ahead and adopt it in actual tournaments.

If the argument against that is "organizing tournaments is hard, building up a community of regular attendees and competitors is hard, and spending my own money and making no profit to run tournaments is hard" - then yeah, that's true. That's why tournament organizers take what they do seriously and think HARD about their rulesets. Once actual real-life time and resources are at stake, you understand where TOs are coming from.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Guys, we're not here to argue about Pokemon being competitive or not (which by the way, Pokemon is competitive as long as you play VGC rules and not Scrubmon- er, Smogon rules). Still, I'm against equipment.

The main difference between Pokemon and Smash is the genre: Pokemon is a turn based game that you have to study before-hand to plan your team according to the many possible strategies available. The numbers associated to it IS what creates the intricate depth of training and affects roles in the end, and therefore removing EV training and IV grinding has no point. It's also a team game where you are not limited to choosing only one character, you can react accordingly in the middle of the match by switching out to something else.

In contrast, Smash Bros does not offer such options. Once you pick a character, you're locked to that character until the end of the match. A Jigglypuff with self-healing equipment and juiced up on Jump that can just jump away from you will be nigh impossible to beat, and you'll only have a chance to switch to a counter next match. Wins and losses will become determined by a game of rock-paper-scissors, except once you make the choice you are forced to stick with it until you eventually lose. The battle system that Smash Bros has also is not reliant on equipment: in other words, unlike Pokemon which does require numbers to be able to strategize, and where you can take the time in between turns to think about your next move, Smash has many more elements that rely on real-time reactions.

Tl;dr, no hate on Pokemon from me (except on the Scrubmon community), but Smash and Pokemon are different games. You can't look at apples and say they're like oranges just because they're both fruits, the same goes with looking at Pokemon and saying you can apply it to Smash just because they're video-games that can be played competitively.

 

[DunnoBro]

The only level equipment could ever be legal is set equipment every copy of the game can unlock via an event. And even then, I can only foresee that played as side events.

 

[Jebus244]

Why not equipment? It has the potential to balance everything. Then someone will play with three Vampire Items, and someone else will have a way around that. It's the biggest game of rock-paper-scissors scince pokemon Gen VI came out.

Why do you want to use customs? Really, why? Any custom you could use on say, Ganon, can be used on sheik, which would simply make her a terror. Customs have the ability to allow you to play an extremely overpowered character, they in no way bring balance. The only way customs would ever be allowed in tournies is if the community agreed on what specific customs were acceptable on specific characters. Then comes the trouble of unlocking them or sending a 3ds around to all the countries just to port the data onto a Wii U, but you would still have to unlock them yourself if you wanted to practice with them. If you want customs, play with your friends, tournaments need standards.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Why do you want to use customs? Really, why? Any custom you could use on say, Ganon, can be used on sheik, which would simply make her a terror. Customs have the ability to allow you to play an extremely overpowered character, they in no way bring balance. The only way customs would ever be allowed in tournies is if the community agreed on what specific customs were acceptable on specific characters. Then comes the trouble of unlocking them or sending a 3ds around to all the countries just to port the data onto a Wii U, but you would still have to unlock them yourself if you wanted to practice with them. If you want customs, play with your friends, tournaments need standards.

I was filled with indignant rage until I realized you probably mean equipment specifically, and not custom moves, otherwise half of what you said makes exactly zero sense.

 

[Jebus244]

I was filled with indignant rage until I realized you probably mean equipment specifically, and not custom moves, otherwise half of what you said makes exactly zero sense.

yeah, good thing you didn't jump the gun. Equipment, yes. Although I don't agree with custom moves in tournies either, for separate reasons.

Edit: Although, if people insist on custom moves in tournaments, there should just be separate "custom move" tournamnets. I think Vanilla sm4sh will be the standard tournament, at least for a while.

 

[warriorman222]

Guys, we're not here to argue about Pokemon being competitive or not (which by the way, Pokemon is competitive as long as you play VGC rules and not Scrubmon- er, Smogon rules). Still, I'm against equipment.

The main difference between Pokemon and Smash is the genre: Pokemon is a turn based game that you have to study before-hand to plan your team according to the many possible strategies available. The numbers associated to it IS what creates the intricate depth of training and affects roles in the end, and therefore removing EV training and IV grinding has no point. It's also a team game where you are not limited to choosing only one character, you can react accordingly in the middle of the match by switching out to something else.

In contrast, Smash Bros does not offer such options. Once you pick a character, you're locked to that character until the end of the match. A Jigglypuff with self-healing equipment and juiced up on Jump that can just jump away from you will be nigh impossible to beat, and you'll only have a chance to switch to a counter next match. Wins and losses will become determined by a game of rock-paper-scissors, except once you make the choice you are forced to stick with it until you eventually lose. The battle system that Smash Bros has also is not reliant on equipment: in other words, unlike Pokemon which does require numbers to be able to strategize, and where you can take the time in between turns to think about your next move, Smash has many more elements that rely on real-time reactions.

Tl;dr, no hate on Pokemon from me (except on the Scrubmon community), but Smash and Pokemon are different games. You can't look at apples and say they're like oranges just because they're both fruits, the same goes with looking at Pokemon and saying you can apply it to Smash just because they're video-games that can be played competitively.

So what is wrong with Smogon, without mentioning banhappiness(Smogon doesn't ban Pokemon. they don't ban anything. the community does, and while I disagree most of the time, they occasionally bring good arguments to the table), Smogonites(There are idiots in every community), officialness(Smashboards has no official dev help look where it is now!), controversy(It's not Obama's fault for being controversial. it's not competitive Smash's fault for being controversial, nor is it smogon's. It's the fault of those who make it controversial, and nobody else.) or tiers(Anything Goes is a thing now. PRAISE LORD MEGAQUAZA).

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

I'm absolutely against Equipment being legal in tournaments. You can make yourself extremely overpowered with equipment. Me and my friends sometimes play with equipment on, and we have made a Ganon and a Bowser both with 2 of our strongest power badges, and a badge that gives a chance for critical hits.
Let's just say that those characters literally kill in one hit, and can break shields in one hit. Doesn't matter if their defense is garbage, tournaments wouldn't be good if everyone could 1-hit KO with every hit, or make themselves so fast that they can't get hit and can jump 5 miles in the air.

 

[Zelder]

Why not equipment? It has the potential to balance everything. Then someone will play with three Vampire Items, and someone else will have a way around that. It's the biggest game of rock-paper-scissors scince pokemon Gen VI came out.

Oh yeah! When I think fun, competitive games, I think "rock paper scissors".

 

[Sleek Media]

I'm absolutely against Equipment being legal in tournaments. You can make yourself extremely overpowered with equipment. Me and my friends sometimes play with equipment on, and we have made a Ganon and a Bowser both with 2 of our strongest power badges, and a badge that gives a chance for critical hits.
Let's just say that those characters literally kill in one hit, and can break shields in one hit. Doesn't matter if their defense is garbage, tournaments wouldn't be good if everyone could 1-hit KO with every hit, or make themselves so fast that they can't get hit and can jump 5 miles in the air.

Protip: defensive equipment has a purpose.