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On The Customized Online Play Problem.

Legitimate Ted

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I'm absolutely against Equipment being legal in tournaments. You can make yourself extremely overpowered with equipment. Me and my friends sometimes play with equipment on, and we have made a Ganon and a Bowser both with 2 of our strongest power badges, and a badge that gives a chance for critical hits.
Let's just say that those characters literally kill in one hit, and can break shields in one hit. Doesn't matter if their defense is garbage, tournaments wouldn't be good if everyone could 1-hit KO with every hit, or make themselves so fast that they can't get hit and can jump 5 miles in the air.
Protip: defensive equipment has a purpose.
Not only defensive equipment, but speed as well. A OHKO build on Gannon or Bowser would completely wreck their defense. A decent counter would be Duck Hunt with some speed and defense buffs.
 

Legitimate Ted

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*Sigh*
You're all assuming that only one player went to the trouble of getting to be overpowered. If everyone's OP, it's hard to notice the problem, until you look at the rule changes that would need to be implemented for it anyway. 2 Stock 15 min isn't appealing to me, either, but it could add further depth to this already wonderful game. I'm not trying to make anyone abide by my rules (unless you swing by my end of Earth, then it's my rules or none at all), just trying to make some effort to use this new feature for something.
 

Abyssal Lagiacrus

Fly across the high seas and mountains
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There are other inherent problems with equipment in tournaments, but the reason I focused on making characters OP with equipment is that it's my #1 issue with it, because tournaments should not comprise of 1-hit KO characters, characters who can zoom around the stage faster than Sonic (and speed equipment also increases jump height and air speed, making recoveries even better), or even more overly defensive characters (God knows defense is already abused.)
 

Legitimate Ted

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I'll find a way, I promise you. I'll go be the guy who started Anything Goes in Smash 4. Except glitches, those are still unacceptable.
 

Abyssal Lagiacrus

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I respect your drive and your views; go right ahead and pursue your venture! I hope you don't take my posts as me trying to spite you or deter you, just trying to contribute discussion.
 

digiholic

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There are several problems with equipment, which I will put in this convenient bulleted list:

  • Items are infinitely random. Infinite distributions of stats combined with hundreds of effects on hundreds of different effects on dozens of different equip types means that there is no way to have your build of choice on tournament machines, period.
  • Pokemon has it's share of semi-random distribution, but they are not similar games. Pokemon is a game about strategy, Smash Bros is a game about skill. The same argument can be used to un-ban items, all stages, and Super Sudden Death Flower Curry Metal Giant Coin Battle. We've removed RNG from Smash Bros for a reason.
  • Equipment is broken. There is equipment that can make any smash attack have a chance to OHKO. There is equipment that make you invincible for long enough to take a stock. There is equipment that turns any character into Little Mac.
  • Going off of the above, if you decide to ban certain broken effects, I ask, who decides? How do you enforce it? What if someone finds a huge exploit with a seemingly innocuous effect? How long before the secret Council of Nine decides it has to be banned? Does that guy still earn his tournament winnings? Do you force him to change his entire strategy mid-bracket because people didn't see it coming? What if something is broken on certain characters, but totally fine on others? The ban list on any tournament rules page would be a mile long filled with conditionals and situations, to the point where a player could be cheating the entire tournament and no one would even realize it because no one could memorize the whole list.
  • Unlike special moves, which are generally stronger for the weaker characters to bring everyone up to the same level, every character has access to identical equipment. So, while only Ganondorf can use Wizard's Dropkick, Diddy Kong is still fully capable of getting Super Armor on all of his Smash Attacks. This would make the disparity between characters even bigger than Melee.
  • Stats can heavily skew a player's knowledge. It's fairly reasonable to accept that a pro player knows at least vague kill percentages for his moves against most of the cast (for example, I know that Mega Upper sweetspot will kill anyone after 90%), but all that knowledge goes out the window with customs. It's basically impossible for anyone to know all the effects of their stats. (Well, I kill at 90% normally, but I'm at +48 attack. That makes it kinda 80-ish? Maybe 75? But they have defense +26... **** it, I'm just gonna hit buttons and hope for the best) This turns the game from being decided by the player with the best game knowledge and reaction time to the person who picked rock when the other guy picked scissors. Simply put, equipment ensures that the best player at the game does not necessarily win.
 
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Sleek Media

Smash Lord
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Jan 29, 2006
Messages
1,399
I respect your drive and your views; go right ahead and pursue your venture! I hope you don't take my posts as me trying to spite you or deter you, just trying to contribute discussion.
Rather than explaining why you think equipment shouldn't be allowed, you would help Ted much more by giving him some ideas to keep things fun and reasonably balanced. You've obviously thought about it. If you absolutely had to run an equipment tournament, what would your rules be?
 

DavemanCozy

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If you can make a ruleset that makes a gamemode with equipment that isn't cancerous (ie, none of the stuff that Abyssal mentioned in his posts, ex like the Heavy Gravity Smooth Lander thread that I saw int his board), then I'm all ears.

It would still be difficult to set up and manage, which is why I think no one has bothered, so good luck in your quest.

So what is wrong with Smogon, without mentioning banhappiness, Smogonites, controversy or tiers.
Well that's pretty much everything that's wrong with Smogon: the community. It's not like the above are minor issues either. The reason I call the community "Scrubmon" is because of the banhappiness you mentioned: most of them don't even make an effort to find strategies vs something, and with the ones that do most of them just end up complaining anyways. They call it cheap and within a month it's gone to Ubers where it won't even stand a chance. IMO, it only hurts the development of the metagame to ban things so quickly (the only quickbans I think were worth doing were M-Gengar and M-Kanga) without letting strategies come to fruition.

It goes back to why I think doubles > singles, 1v1 is obviously not a balanced meta if you have to ban so much to make it fair. But that's more of a preference thing, the community is the main reason why I think Smogon is toxic.
 

warriorman222

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If you can make a ruleset that makes a gamemode with equipment that isn't cancerous (ie, none of the stuff that Abyssal mentioned in his posts, ex like the Heavy Gravity Smooth Lander thread that I saw int his board), then I'm all ears.

It would still be difficult to set up and manage, which is why I think no one has bothered, so good luck in your quest.



Well that's pretty much everything that's wrong with Smogon: the community. It's not like the above are minor issues either. The reason I call the community "Scrubmon" is because of the banhappiness you mentioned: most of them don't even make an effort to find strategies vs something, and with the ones that do most of them just end up complaining anyways. They call it cheap and within a month it's gone to Ubers where it won't even stand a chance. IMO, it only hurts the development of the metagame to ban things so quickly (the only quickbans I think were worth doing were M-Gengar and M-Kanga) without letting strategies come to fruition.

It goes back to why I think doubles > singles, 1v1 is obviously not a balanced meta if you have to ban so much to make it fair. But that's more of a preference thing, the community is the main reason why I think Smogon is toxic.
Every community has bad. We have just as much idiots here, if not more. We have people crying to ban Skyloft and Duck Hunt, or to force Diddy to use bad customs. And sometimes they get their way. people want Wuhu banned over a glitch? Apex does that, and monkey see monkey do. Wuhu may likely end up illegal in many tournaments for months. It's the community that bans them, because the mods make it too easy to get required rank. If they made the stakes much higher, we would have much less bans.

Really, the only problem with Smogon is the elitist oligarchy type of bans, especially when you don't need to be elite to make it. IF they made bans in a different type of fashion, Smogon wouldn't be ridiculed at all.
 

Legitimate Ted

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If you can make a ruleset that makes a gamemode with equipment that isn't cancerous (ie, none of the stuff that Abyssal mentioned in his posts, ex like the Heavy Gravity Smooth Lander thread that I saw int his board), then I'm all ears.

It would still be difficult to set up and manage, which is why I think no one has bothered, so good luck in your quest.



Well that's pretty much everything that's wrong with Smogon: the community. It's not like the above are minor issues either. The reason I call the community "Scrubmon" is because of the banhappiness you mentioned: most of them don't even make an effort to find strategies vs something, and with the ones that do most of them just end up complaining anyways. They call it cheap and within a month it's gone to Ubers where it won't even stand a chance. IMO, it only hurts the development of the metagame to ban things so quickly (the only quickbans I think were worth doing were M-Gengar and M-Kanga) without letting strategies come to fruition.

It goes back to why I think doubles > singles, 1v1 is obviously not a balanced meta if you have to ban so much to make it fair. But that's more of a preference thing, the community is the main reason why I think Smogon is toxic.
The closest anyone could get to non-cancerous is to ban everything with special effects. No crits, no passive healing, no invincibility. Just powersaved stat boosts. This can go on until there is conclusive evidence that a particular effect isn't unbeatable, at which point that effect is allowed in tournament play.

Any takers?
 

Sleek Media

Smash Lord
Joined
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Messages
1,399
Every community has bad. We have just as much idiots here, if not more. We have people crying to ban Skyloft and Duck Hunt, or to force Diddy to use bad customs. And sometimes they get their way. people want Wuhu banned over a glitch? Apex does that, and monkey see monkey do. Wuhu may likely end up illegal in many tournaments for months. It's the community that bans them, because the mods make it too easy to get required rank. If they made the stakes much higher, we would have much less bans.

Really, the only problem with Smogon is the elitist oligarchy type of bans, especially when you don't need to be elite to make it. IF they made bans in a different type of fashion, Smogon wouldn't be ridiculed at all.
You're 100% on the mark here. I would also add that one of the reasons people hate both the smogon and smash bros communities is that their players go out and expect the rest of the world to play their way only. It severely limits enjoyment of the game and growth of the community by actively excluding/disparaging anyone who tries to bring an alternative set of rules to competitive play.
 

warriorman222

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The closest anyone could get to non-cancerous is to ban everything with special effects. No crits, no passive healing, no invincibility. Just powersaved stat boosts. This can go on until there is conclusive evidence that a particular effect isn't unbeatable, at which point that effect is allowed in tournament play.

Any takers?
Maybe. If only it wasn't so RNG. normal Brawn Badge has 21 different combinations. Max Power Gloves: 575. Not putting effects into consideration, If you thought getting 6IV Pokemon without both items was hard, getting specific or even optimal equipment is literally impossible.
 
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digiholic

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The closest anyone could get to non-cancerous is to ban everything with special effects. No crits, no passive healing, no invincibility. Just powersaved stat boosts. This can go on until there is conclusive evidence that a particular effect isn't unbeatable, at which point that effect is allowed in tournament play.
I'd like to bring up a few of my previous points here:

  • Items are infinitely random. Infinite distributions of stats combined with hundreds of effects on hundreds of different effects on dozens of different equip types means that there is no way to have your build of choice on tournament machines, period.
  • Stats can heavily skew a player's knowledge. It's fairly reasonable to accept that a pro player knows at least vague kill percentages for his moves against most of the cast (for example, I know that Mega Upper sweetspot will kill anyone after 90%), but all that knowledge goes out the window with customs. It's basically impossible for anyone to know all the effects of their stats. (Well, I kill at 90% normally, but I'm at +48 attack. That makes it kinda 80-ish? Maybe 75? But they have defense +26... **** it, I'm just gonna hit buttons and hope for the best) This turns the game from being decided by the player with the best game knowledge and reaction time to the person who picked rock when the other guy picked scissors. Simply put, equipment ensures that the best player at the game does not necessarily win.
 
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Legitimate Ted

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Stats can heavily skew a player's knowledge. It's fairly reasonable to accept that a pro player knows at least vague kill percentages for his moves against most of the cast (for example, I know that Mega Upper sweetspot will kill anyone after 90%), but all that knowledge goes out the window with customs. It's basically impossible for anyone to know all the effects of their stats. (Well, I kill at 90% normally, but I'm at +48 attack. That makes it kinda 80-ish? Maybe 75? But they have defense +26... **** it, I'm just gonna hit buttons and hope for the best) This turns the game from being decided by the player with the best game knowledge and reaction time to the person who picked rock when the other guy picked scissors. Simply put, equipment ensures that the best player at the game does not necessarily win.
This isn't entirely correct.
The "best" player in the past has always been guy A who beats guy B with the same roster. With equipment, this is mostly the same, but altered slightly. Now the best player is the guy who is better at the whole game, and thus would have access to much better equipment, as the strength of equipment obtained in all the applicable modes is determined by the skill of the player in those modes. As such, having better equipment implies a higher skill level on the part of the player.

The best player at the game would also have a better knowledge of all the technical and practical properties of all the equipment and would logically be better at making the most useful build to put on a specific character with a limited list of custom parts that would be the most likely to beat every other player. If it's allowed, one could just transfer customs between the versions, giving greater access to the desired build. That isn't likely to happen, though, because you people like rules. One of the popular arguments against equipment on this thread is "no standard set of equipment." A skilled player could just take what he's given and assemble something useful ad hoc. One could also hack their way to a standard, but I think that's unethical and very easily abused.

It adds variety, too. The lack of a standard means the game doesn't play the same every single time, meaning fewer people get bored by the repetitive gameplay.
 
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Mario1080p

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I should of been part of this discussion earlier as I've been struggling to get anyone interested with my idea of a possible new Smash mode(still no official name given). There are Equipment found in Smash Challenges that has the same stats in each copy of Smash Wii U. Getting the ones I'm looking for will require at least 1 Golden Hammer to get these three Badges fairly quickly.

But I guess I'll just have to experiment with it.
Here's something to experiment, equip every character with:

Smooth Lander Brawn Badge(Golden Hammer recommended)
No-Flinch Smasher Protection Badge(Get 50 KOs in Endless Smash, pretty easy)
Desperate Specialist Agility Badge(Beat an Intense Master Orders Ticket, not that hard)

Equipping these three badges will always give you +3 Attack, -20 Defense & -4 Speed as they're not random like other Custom Equipment found elsewhere. Because characters are slightly stronger & a lot lighter, I suggest setting the Launch Rate 0.9x so lightweights don't die off too quickly.

While I've spent weeks trying out this mode, I've only been fighting Level 9 CPUs in nearly every possible smash mode from 1v1s to 8-player Smash. For 1v1s, Matches tend to end on an average of 5 minutes using 4 Stock, but that could all change if actual players were fighting under this condition. I would appreciate it if someone would help experiment this with me as I found this to be surprisingly fun. I honestly haven't had this much fun since very early builds of Project M(then Brawl+).

This account is too new to post a Miiverse link to my post going into more detail & where in the challenges to get the Three Equipment Badges. It's one of my more recent posts I've made so I guess search my profile by typing in my NNID.

Seeing how Online With Friends works, trying this set will work for those on your friendlist. I just have a hard time convincing Youtubers/Twitch streamers to try this seeing how close APEX is. If only Smash 4 had the ability to post matches to youtube like with Mario Kart 8, I could post a few samples of my idea similar to "TheRealCartererer" when he started the Smooth Lander + Heavy Gravity videos.

TL;DR: Need help experimenting a smash mode involving equipment found in challenges that could appeal to both casual & possibly competitive players alike. Not seeing any major flaws to consider it a dud, but still needs more player feedback. Particularly anyone willing to try a variety of Characters.
 
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Legitimate Ted

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I should of been part of this discussion earlier as I've been struggling to get anyone interested with my idea of a possible new Smash mode(still no official name given). There are Equipment found in Smash Challenges that has the same stats in each copy of Smash Wii U. Getting the ones I'm looking for will require at least 1 Golden Hammer to get these three Badges fairly quickly.



Here's something to experiment, equip every character with:

Smooth Lander Brawn Badge(Golden Hammer recommended)
No-Flinch Smasher Protection Badge(Get 50 KOs in Endless Smash, pretty easy)
Desperate Specialist Agility Badge(Beat an Intense Master Orders Ticket, not that hard)

Equipping these three badges will always give you +3 Attack, -20 Defense & -4 Speed as they're not random like other Custom Equipment found elsewhere. Because characters are slightly stronger & a lot lighter, I suggest setting the Launch Rate 0.9x so lightweights don't die off too quickly.

While I've spent weeks trying out this mode, I've only been fighting Level 9 CPUs in nearly every possible smash mode from 1v1s to 8-player Smash. For 1v1s, Matches tend to end on an average of 5 minutes using 4 Stock, but that could all change if actual players were fighting under this condition. I would appreciate it if someone would help experiment this with me as I found this to be surprisingly fun. I honestly haven't had this much fun since very early builds of Project M(then Brawl+).

This account is too new to post a Miiverse link to my post going into more detail & where in the challenges to get the Three Equipment Badges. It's one of my more recent posts I've made so I guess search my profile by typing in my NNID.

Seeing how Online With Friends works, trying this set will work for those on your friendlist. I just have a hard time convincing Youtubers/Twitch streamers to try this seeing how close APEX is. If only Smash 4 had the ability to post matches to youtube like with Mario Kart 8, I could post a few samples of my idea similar to "TheRealCartererer" when he started the Smooth Lander + Heavy Gravity videos.

TL;DR: Need help experimenting a smash mode involving equipment found in challenges that could appeal to both casual & possibly competitive players alike. Not seeing any major flaws to consider it a dud, but still needs more player feedback. Particularly anyone willing to try a variety of Characters.
I'll play anyone, I prefer Lucina. Though unfortunately, I have no Crazy Orders right now, as I only have the 3DS version.
 

Mario1080p

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I figured you had both versions seeing you have two Lucina icons under your Profile name. My idea isn't possible for those who only owns the 3DS version as the Challenges & unlocks found there are too different.

If you had both, you can send bring it over to the 3DS version via character transfer. However you cannot change any possible custom special moves once it's over to the 3DS though I guess you can send multiple sets like with Amazing Ampharos's thread about numbered sets like Mario's 2323 for example.
 

Reaperfan

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Oct 18, 2014
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Someone else take this one. My shift is over.
Aye, Aye! Cap'n!

There are a multitude of problem, any of which is a show-stopper single-handedly.


It's flat out logistically impossible.

You make a MK with -49/+50/+14, Air Defender, and Glider? Great. How do you plan to put that on every console at a tourney? Not only would it take a prohibitive amount of time, but what equipment each setup has on it is random. You literally can't do it. (Contrast with custom moves, where everyone uses the same sets and making them takes seconds, not minutes.)

Not without a 3DS, which has its own issues for this. Using a 3DS for this purpose still takes tons of logistical tourney time, and also forces every player to have a 3DS and grind equipment in that version. (Unlike using a 3DS for custom moves, which is a one-and-done deal that only requires one handheld at an entire event)


Extreme variations in Attack and Defense cause match length to be hyper volatile.

The natural match time for a 3-stock game between 2 attack-maxed Little Macs or Ganondorfs could be around 30 seconds. It's basically 2-3 hits per stock.

The natural match time for a 3-stock game between 2 Defensive-focused Mega Mans or Villagers is probably going to be around 20-25 minutes.

To say nothing of Sonic, which brings us to...


Extreme variations in Speed effects stalling in many matchups.

The size and movement physics parameters of the characters are carefully calibrated such that, on stages suitable for 1v1, no character can avoid their opponent indefinitely. Stalling potential is limited and incurs risk. Even Ganondorf can corner Sonic--on every 1v1 stage.

Shattering this carefully constructed equilibrium with speed mods changes this. A sufficiently fast Sonic, Falcon, and Palutena can run away from several default-stat slow characters easily and indefinitely, even on FD.

You will also see things break down in this way if you try other things that mess with these factors such as Tiny Smash.


Extreme variations in equipment stats are impractical to train against.

It's daunting to have to train against 51 possible opponents. Custom moves further complicate things, but it's still reasonable. For example, custom moves on an opponent doesn't change how your moves hit or combo them.

But when you add variations to how hard moves hit, that is out the window. Your combo-%s and move behaviors are going to be radically difference based on the combination of attack and defense stats.

Speed adjustments are even worse; this changes the rules on what is punishable, what punishment options are available, and even what aerials auto-cancel or not. The entire game becomes less predictable and more unsafe. (More defensive.)


Many of the equipment effects are competitively degenerate.
Stalling: (heavily encourages or enables staling, or dramatically mitigates/skews possible harassment)
  • All-around Trade-off
  • Auto-Healer
  • Countdown (sort of)
  • Crouch Healer
  • Nimble Dodger
  • Perfect-Shield Helper
  • Shield Exploder (especially with Perfect Shield Helper)
  • Shield Healer
  • Shield Reflector
  • Shield Regenerator
  • Vampire
Luck-based:
  • Critical Hitter
  • Shield Healer (iirc?)
  • Vampire
Overpowered or Centralizing:
  • Critical Hitter
  • Desperate Attacker
  • Desperate Immortal
  • Desperate Speedster
  • Home-Run Bat
  • No-Flinch Smasher
  • Picky Eater
  • Quick Batter (w/ HRB)
  • Vampire
Polarizing: (Affects certain matchups more than others excessively, degenerating things into rock-paper-scissors and requiring players to use a different equipment set for every matchup)
  • Air Attacker
  • Air Defender (best example: I would run this on every character in the game against Jigglypuff)
  • Air Pinata
  • Air Pushover
  • All-around Trade-off
  • Anchor Jump
  • Antiglide
  • Antileap
  • Bob-omb (counters trade-off abilities)
  • Double-Jump Boost
  • Double-Jump Drag
  • Escape Artist
  • First Striker
  • Glider
  • Gluey Edge
  • Hi-Jump
  • Insult to Injury
  • Item Hurler
  • Item Lobber
  • Item Pitcher
  • Leaper
  • Lo-Jump
  • Meteor Master
  • Moon Launcher
  • No-Flinch Smasher
  • Shield Exploder
  • Shield Healer
  • Shield Reflector
  • Speed Skater
  • Sprinter
  • Thistle Jump
  • Trade-off Attacker
  • Trade-off Defender
  • Trade-off Speedster
  • Vampire
Irrelevant: (Essentially not applicable to competitive 1v1 play)
  • Caloric Attacker
  • Caloric Defender
  • Caloric Immortal
  • Caloric Powerhouse
  • Caloric Speedster
  • Countdown (sort of)
  • Double Final Smasher
  • Final Smash Healer
  • Food Lover
  • Item Shooter
  • Pity Final Smasher
  • Smash Ball Attractor
  • Smash Ball Clinger
  • Sudden Death Gambler
  • Super Final Smasher
This is a huge % of the effects, much more than half. And of those that remain, the ones we COULD use, they tend to make this carefully-tuned game worse, not better; examples:
  • Various Items (like Ray Gun)
  • Unharmed [X]
  • Safe Respawner
  • Hyper Smasher
  • Smooth Lander
  • Speed Crasher

In conclusion, there are a dozen reasons why equipment is ill-suited to a competitive environment.

Take your pick!
 

Legitimate Ted

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Aye, Aye! Cap'n!
Had you been paying any attention to anything else in this thread, you may have noticed that the only point you actually have in that enitrely too long list of lists is the "Extreme variations in Attack and Defense cause match length to be hyper volatile." one. Not that it's your point. Every other problem up until this point had been solved anyway, which I will now reiterate in the following spoiler:

 

Mario1080p

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As I stated before, it is possible to get the same amount of stats for the three equipment badges I mentioned previously & it can be tried online with friends as I don't feel Heavy Gravity is needed. The three badges I chose I honestly didn't have in mind as I would of much preferred Shield Degenerator & Dodgy Dodger, but I found the ones here to be fine & would make for a unique type of Smash, be it 1v1, 2v2, or heck even 4v4. I would argue that unlocking these three badges is faster than unlocking every character & stage in the game.

While I'm not sure this set will be for everyone, I tend to think that my idea could of been either Sakurai or the folks at Bandi Namco if they really wanted Smash 4 to be completely different from previous Smash games.

(Almost have the ability to link my Miiverse post going into further detail)
 
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Legitimate Ted

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As I stated before, it is possible to get the same amount of stats for the three equipment badges I mentioned previously & it can be tried online with friends as I don't feel Heavy Gravity is needed. The three badges I chose I honestly didn't have in mind as I would of much preferred Shield Degenerator & Dodgy Dodger, but I found the ones here to be fine & would make for a unique type of Smash, be it 1v1, 2v2, or heck even 4v4. I would argue that unlocking these three badges is faster than unlocking every character & stage in the game.

While I'm not sure this set will be for everyone, I tend to think that my idea could of been either Sakurai or the folks at Bandi Namco if they really wanted Smash 4 to be completely different from previous Smash games.

(Almost have the ability to link my Miiverse post going into further detail)
Are you on the right thread?
 

Mario1080p

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Just in regards to the whole custom equipment part of the discussion. Not sure what they'll do with the upcoming Online Tournament Mode though I do hope it comes with a variety of options.
 
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