On Custom Moves and their Future

[moofpi]

Skill beats out character advantage, customs or not. That's not my point. My point is that it's not as balanced and doesn't offer anything for the game.

And I've heard that Stagnant Shuriken is highly situational.

What's the point in adding a largely irrelevant choice, that according to you, most good players don't make use of, when it makes the balance worse? Only reason people are sticking to defaults is because that's what they're used to. If it were to become standard then they most certainly would use and abuse them.

Propaganda? Seriously? If anything, your the one trying to paint me and other anti-customs as monsters. Good luck ever proving that.

So they're irrelevant and don't matter when it counts? Then why bother?



Figures I'd forget her of all people.

Well if skill beats out character advantage and customs then that's a good thing. It offers variety.

Stagnant Shurken is highly situational, which is why aMSa switched off it at Evo and went default. I'm talking about Shifting Shuriken though and it's really good, I was surprised aMSa didn't go with that.

The good players don't play with them much because they aren't sure that they will stay around and they don't want to waste training time on customs if they get the boot. The reason to add them is for exploration. There are still things we're finding out and new strategies being uncovered in default meta, imagine how much we could figure out if we actually took customs seriously and worked on new combos and ways to overcome previously unwinnable match ups?

Another reason we should allow them when the top players don't use them currently is because this decision affects us way more than it affects them. It affects the interesting match ups and dynamics of the pools and top 8's, though 1st and 2nd are going to be won by a Sheik or Rosalina regardless.

I'm not saying you're a monster or whatever, calm down. I'm just saying a lot of your opinions are pretty uninformed and assume customs = doom, no matter what, no positives. Default meta would be fine sure, but it'd always bug me knowing that there's all these other new options introduced in Smash 4 that we would not be exploring and what the final tier list would look like with those options taken into consideration.

Hey, what if customs were on and everything was okay? What if it was actually hype not knowing what you were going to get every time you see two certain characters? What if...it was fun?

 

[LancerStaff]

Well if skill beats out character advantage and customs then that's a good thing. It offers variety.

Stagnant Shurken is highly situational, which is why aMSa switched off it at Evo and went default. I'm talking about Shifting Shuriken though and it's really good, I was surprised aMSa didn't go with that.

The good players don't play with them much because they aren't sure that they will stay around and they don't want to waste training time on customs if they get the boot. The reason to add them is for exploration. There are still things we're finding out and new strategies being uncovered in default meta, imagine how much we could figure out if we actually took customs seriously and worked on new combos and ways to overcome previously unwinnable match ups?

Another reason we should allow them when the top players don't use them currently is because this decision affects us way more than it affects them. It affects the interesting match ups and dynamics of the pools and top 8's, though 1st and 2nd are going to be won by a Sheik or Rosalina regardless.

I'm not saying you're a monster or whatever, calm down. I'm just saying a lot of your opinions are pretty uninformed and assume customs = doom, no matter what, no positives. Default meta would be fine sure, but it'd always bug me knowing that there's all these other new options introduced in Smash 4 that we would not be exploring and what the final tier list would look like with those options taken into consideration.

Hey, what if customs were on and everything was okay? What if it was actually hype not knowing what you were going to get every time you see two certain characters? What if...it was fun?

Doesn't offer variety when everybody picks what's optimal.

There's really not a lot of strategy to any of these moves... They're just better versions of previous moves. Some have niche matchup uses, but almost never for good characters.

Like what? What's actually better? Some characters go up, but more fall. That's objectively less interesting.

I'm calm. You're the one saying I was trying to scare dumb people into not using them...

That's a complete pipe dream. It only happens now because of inexperience. Wouldn't take long until things stagnate and everybody is picking boring, optimal sets.

 

[Dsull]

My issue with customs in general is:

1) Random luck on getting them. Personally i hate playing against computers because they cheat/require a completely different mindset than people due to their reaction times, and i have no guarantee i'll get ANY moves let alone for a character i want them for.

2) Diversity. Theyre not balanced at ALL between the characters. Some characters dont have a single custom move worth mentioning with others like DK have a game-altering one that drastically changes how you use him. When i heard about custom moves thats what i thought they were going to be - complete alternate moves for characters that have more than 4 moves in their real games OR total reworks of an existing move to change the gameplay drastically. I was honestly expecting Megaman to have the option to change his B to most of the boss weapons throughout the original 8bit series lol and FwdB for the rest.

Have to admit though, with that all being said, i wish they had a For Glory Customs! mode where custom moves, but not gear, was enabled. I never have local players to face, so i literally never get to use customs outside against my hated enemy the AI.

 

[cot(θ)]

Demonstrate how this flaw can possibly exist.

The flaw is that actually relevant issues such as logistics, game balance, spectator value, etc, are being eclipsed by a detail of the game's UI. You're taking a point which is totally irrelevant to the way customs are actually used and the impact they have on gameplay and the community, and elevating it to a status so high that it allegedly places the entire burden of proof on the other side.

Any arguments based on the default status of in-game toggles hold no substance - they are hollow rhetoric. We should be discussing this in terms of factors that actually affect the community and the way we play the game.

I would say I couldn't accurately give you an answer, from my understanding of the imaginary scenario, considering the game would have no definition of "custom fighters". So creating rules around something that is not defined would have no function.

You're doing that thing again. Stop it. Also, the toggle on the character select screen is not the only place in the game where the name "Custom Fighters" is mentioned.

 

[T0MMY]

The flaw is that actually relevant issues such as logistics, game balance, spectator value, etc, are being eclipsed by a detail of the game's UI.

I would find it shameful to make a case of belittling the discussion to the point of over-emphasizing the UI.
One can emphasize relevant issues AND be a proponent of competitive values which exclude Custom Fighters.

Spoiler

If more analysis is needed to be demonstrated I will cover the rest of the post in this spoiler to keep the rest of the argument more pristine:

You're taking a point which is totally irrelevant to the way customs are actually used and the impact they have on gameplay and the community, and elevating it to a status so high that it allegedly places the entire burden of proof on the other side.

First off, I do not believe there was ever a point of saying the point was relevant to the use/impact of customs.
Subjectively any one can say customs are "good" or "bad" and all we're left with is the stinky smell of a red herring.
Secondly, the argument is not allegedly reduced to a burden of proof, it is demonstrable as such in the paradigm of competitive philosophy (and reasonning in general) via onus probandi: I do not need to prove to you why we should not change rules. Any change in rules must be reasonable.

Think of it this way: Why use a rule if there is no reason to?

This is a good segue into competitive value popping out of this spoiler now and into...

Competitive value
If you are making a claim that customs are more valuable for competition then please demonstrate how. As for myself, Evo (and many other events prior) have shown the claims of "balance" and "depth" didn't deliver - if the best argument on these boards were that customs didn't completely "ruin" the game, then that setting garners no support from me (I'd logically have to support anything that didn't "ruin" the game including Items, coin battle, or whatever subjective issue comes to hand).

Any arguments based on the default status of in-game toggles hold no substance - they are hollow rhetoric. We should be discussing this in terms of factors that actually affect the community and the way we play the game.

argumentum ad lapidem - Saying it is "hollow rhetoric" so does not automatically mean it is such, especially suspicious because you are addressing a logician, one who deals not with rhetoric.

How they "actually" affect gameplay: degenerative
And the community? Divided​

Pretty sure you've seen this yourself (especially the divided issue, or else we wouldn't even have this discussion!) - I saw it at Evo personally. I talked to various TO's and notable players of various regions about it while there as well as online prior to and after the event.
My region's notables feel the same way most notable players/TO's outside my region I spoke with do.
I am not going to try to play a bleeding heart role over something I personally don't have emotional investment in. I'm a competitive player who supports competitive philosophy, I don't need to do that - I compete.

You're doing that thing again. Stop it. Also, the toggle on the character select screen is not the only place in the game where the name "Custom Fighters" is mentioned.

I do "that thing" with people who don't define properly - my experience is that poor definition allows for what I call "wriggle room" where they can wriggle out of a poorly defined argument just to attempt to make it look like they have a strong argument.
Informally this fallacy is known as "hedging"; it doesn't work out too well against a good logician. But it is worth a chance to sacrifice integrity for image?

So, if you are making the choice to communicate with me, perhaps it's best to work with me - otherwise it's like trying to talk to someone who only speaks Chinese and when they respond in Chinese you say "you're doing that talking-in-Chinese 'thing' again".

 

[Sodo]

The flaw is that actually relevant issues such as logistics, game balance, spectator value, etc, are being eclipsed by a detail of the game's UI. You're taking a point which is totally irrelevant to the way customs are actually used and the impact they have on gameplay and the community, and elevating it to a status so high that it allegedly places the entire burden of proof on the other side.

Any arguments based on the default status of in-game toggles hold no substance - they are hollow rhetoric. We should be discussing this in terms of factors that actually affect the community and the way we play the game.

I read this entire thing in Zachary Quinto's Spock voice.

My issue with customs in general is:

1) Random luck on getting them. Personally i hate playing against computers because they cheat/require a completely different mindset than people due to their reaction times, and i have no guarantee i'll get ANY moves let alone for a character i want them for.

2) Diversity. Theyre not balanced at ALL between the characters. Some characters dont have a single custom move worth mentioning with others like DK have a game-altering one that drastically changes how you use him. When i heard about custom moves thats what i thought they were going to be - complete alternate moves for characters that have more than 4 moves in their real games OR total reworks of an existing move to change the gameplay drastically. I was honestly expecting Megaman to have the option to change his B to most of the boss weapons throughout the original 8bit series lol and FwdB for the rest.

Have to admit though, with that all being said, i wish they had a For Glory Customs! mode where custom moves, but not gear, was enabled. I never have local players to face, so i literally never get to use customs outside against my hated enemy the AI.

I agree with both of your points, and I'm most definitely pro customs. I have a Turbo controller and it took four days of farming to get every custom unlocked, I can't imagine what people without said controller did.

Your other point is valid as well, but very few custom moves are available on every EVO set. Kong Cyclone (DK), Heavy Skullbash (Pikachu), Relentless Missile (Samus), Flaming Straight Lunge (Little Mac), Hyper Voice (Jigglypuff), and Feint Jump (Brawler, middleweight only) are the only moves I saw, although I'm sure there are others I missed. These moves were considered so much better than the other two options that they placed it on every single set. Most every other set has a variation or two, which provides some depth for gameplay.

 

[Champ Gold]

My issue with customs in general is:

1) Random luck on getting them. Personally i hate playing against computers because they cheat/require a completely different mindset than people due to their reaction times, and i have no guarantee i'll get ANY moves let alone for a character i want them for.

2) Diversity. Theyre not balanced at ALL between the characters. Some characters dont have a single custom move worth mentioning with others like DK have a game-altering one that drastically changes how you use him. When i heard about custom moves thats what i thought they were going to be - complete alternate moves for characters that have more than 4 moves in their real games OR total reworks of an existing move to change the gameplay drastically. I was honestly expecting Megaman to have the option to change his B to most of the boss weapons throughout the original 8bit series lol and FwdB for the rest.

Have to admit though, with that all being said, i wish they had a For Glory Customs! mode where custom moves, but not gear, was enabled. I never have local players to face, so i literally never get to use customs outside against my hated enemy the AI.

Diversity is my biggest problem. has the worst custom output of any character aside from maybe Dash Counter in certain situations but Mac's customs make to where it'll never help him and will even hinder him moreso.

And don't get me started on &'s customs.

 

[Goesasu]

robin has amaz

Diversity is my biggest problem. has the worst custom output of any character aside from maybe Dash Counter in certain situations but Mac's customs make to where it'll never help him and will even hinder him moreso.

And don't get me started on &'s customs.

Robin has amazing custom what r you saying? speed thunder, fire wall and gliding elwind giblve him the tools to fight against rushdown.

Falco custom down b that destroy projectiles instead of reflect them is one of the best down b in the game. fast fire bird is nothing short of amazing to avoid disadvantage and continúe combos.

This is why we cant have nice things, people make judgements without proper research. Everytime i read this kind of thing or that jiggly doesnt get anything of custom i die a little inside. (ryu sei ken side b to leaping rest true combo under 80%).

This is to everybody, do research before talking.

 

[Champ Gold]

robin has amaz


Robin has amazing custom what r you saying? speed thunder, fire wall and gliding elwind giblve him the tools to fight against rushdown.

Falco custom down b that destroy projectiles instead of reflect them is one of the best down b in the game. fast fire bird is nothing short of amazing to avoid disadvantage and continúe combos.

This is why we cant have nice things, people make judgements without proper research. Everytime i read this kind of thing or that jiggly doesnt get anything of custom i die a little inside. (ryu sei ken side b to leaping rest true combo under 80%).

This is to everybody, do research before talking.

Doesn't help that I don't have all their custom moves and its RNG based. So it's hard to judge them when YOU DON'T HAVE ANY UNLOCKED AND YOU ALWAYS GET THE SAME CRAPSHOOT ONES.

It's better with Normal IMO than Customs. It's less of them being BS sometimes but it can be nerve-wrecking with the horrid playstyles it brings like Trip Seed and Exploding Balloons, Static Manny using a who is rushdown as a camper with that stupid side b and aside from making & it's just hurts hurts other characters who don't have the options of decent customs especially when DLC characters have no customs.

I rather deal with basic standard stuff than customs and high you have to change up everything to stop those certain moves

 

[Sodo]

Doesn't help that I don't have all their custom moves and its RNG based. So it's hard to judge them when YOU DON'T HAVE ANY UNLOCKED AND YOU ALWAYS GET THE SAME CRAPSHOOT ONES.

I rather deal with basic standard stuff than customs and high you have to change up everything to stop those certain moves

No offense, but this is a terrible argument. Why would you go around saying that "X has terrible customs" when you don't even have them unlocked? Unless you've actually played with them how would you know?

And your second point doesn't make any sense. "Git gud" would be the typical response, but I'll break it down further. You not wanting to learn how to adapt to a new move doesn't constitute the dampening of the entire metagame. Grand Finals consisted of two default characters at EVO. You should be more worried about dealing with them.

 

[Champ Gold]

No offense, but this is a terrible argument. Why would you go around saying that "X has terrible customs" when you don't even have them unlocked? Unless you've actually played with them how would you know?

And your second point doesn't make any sense. "Git gud" would be the typical response, but I'll break it down further. You not wanting to learn how to adapt to a new move doesn't constitute the dampening of the entire metagame. Grand Finals consisted of two default characters at EVO. You should be more worried about dealing with them.

But default IMO is much easier to deal with because despite how great or horrible the characters are, you know what to expect but with customs you have to have a different playstyle that it's just a headache to deal with.

Can't you just see where I'm coming from that matchup perspective. The way I practice, I usually deal with default stuff. Maybe I'm lazy or a scrub but I just don't like learning an extra meta over something that just be softbanned after EVO and go back to what it was before.

 

[Sodo]

Maybe I'm lazy

I'm not going to call you a scrub because I'm nothing special at Smash but you're definitely lazy. If you don't want to learn how the customs work, fine. But if you play competitively in an environment with customs you might lose to someone worse than you just because you don't understand the matchup. Does that ring a bell? Because it happens all the time in Smash (all games, not just 4), and not just with customs on.

 

[Champ Gold]

I'm not going to call you a scrub because I'm nothing special at Smash but you're definitely lazy. If you don't want to learn how the customs work, fine. But if you play competitively in an environment with customs you might lose to someone worse than you just because you don't understand the matchup. Does that ring a bell? Because it happens all the time in Smash (all games, not just 4), and not just with customs on.

Fine, I should start learning customs because then but I still have a negative stigma wil forever keep that stigma and keep calling for default until Sakurai actually balance ALL, not some, ALL of them where it can be used about as similar to default moves like having drawback to Heavy Skull Bash, Trip Seed, fix up Wind Kong so it isn't as crazy and buff the bad ones.

Can we atleast agree on that

 

[Sodo]

Fine, I should start learning customs because then but I still have a negative stigma wil forever keep that stigma and keep calling for default until Sakurai actually balance ALL, not some, ALL of them where it can be used about as similar to default moves like having drawback to Heavy Skull Bash, Trip Seed, fix up Wind Kong so it isn't as crazy and buff the bad ones.

Can we atleast agree on that

I literally don't even know what you just wrote.

 

[Champ Gold]

I literally don't even know what you just wrote.

TL;DR

I will tolerate customs but it's still garbage to me until Sakurai balances it

 

[Goesasu]

Fine, I should start learning customs because then but I still have a negative stigma wil forever keep that stigma and keep calling for default until Sakurai actually balance ALL, not some, ALL of them where it can be used about as similar to default moves like having drawback to Heavy Skull Bash, Trip Seed, fix up Wind Kong so it isn't as crazy and buff the bad ones.

Can we atleast agree on that

All the moves you listed(like all customs) have drawbacks but as you are too lazy to do a little research you dont know them.

You view them as an upgrade because of sheep mentality that usual on ths kind of games and trading card games. Truth be told those moves are very good and players playstyles try to make the drawbacks less meaningful, but still, thats players achivement and no the move itself for not having drawbacks.

 

[Pyr]

All the moves you listed(like all customs) have drawbacks but as you are too lazy to do a little research you dont know them.

You view them as an upgrade because of sheep mentality that usual on ths kind of games and trading card games. Truth be told those moves are very good and players playstyles try to make the drawbacks less meaningful, but still, thats players achivement and no the move itself for not having drawbacks.

This just in: even if the move has a drawback that literally doesn't matter, it's still a drawback, so balanced.

 

[neohopeSTF]

This just in: even if the move has a drawback that literally doesn't matter, it's still a drawback, so balanced.

This makes no sense.

 

[Pyr]

This makes no sense.

It was poking fun at him for thinking that all custom moves have drawbacks and that the only reason they aren't noticed is because of the player. That's a completely wrong statement. Sometimes it's unnoticeable (Kong Cyclone doesn't go as high) or irrelevant (no one is making a tree out of trip sappling, so the axe and tree knockback reduction is irrelevant). Fact is, there are customs that are strictly better, despite their drawback, and it doesn't take player skill to negate the drawbacks.

 

[neohopeSTF]

It was poking fun at him for thinking that all custom moves have drawbacks and that the only reason they aren't noticed is because of the player. That's a completely wrong statement. Sometimes it's unnoticeable (Kong Cyclone doesn't go as high) or irrelevant (no one is making a tree out of trip sappling, so the axe and tree knockback reduction is irrelevant). Fact is, there are customs that are strictly better, despite their drawback, and it doesn't take player skill to negate the drawbacks.

Oh, ok. I was thinking you literally meant what you said. Should've read the post better.(I just kind of reacted to your post only, didn't read the post you where responding too, bad idea )

 

[Unknownkid]

playstyles it brings like Trip Seed and Exploding Balloons, Static Manny using a who is rushdown as a camper with that stupid side b and aside from making

Sonic, Rushdown, Manny? Something is not right about this sentience haha.

You need to watch more Default Sonic especially Static Manny, Seagull Joe and I think True Blue because they play style is rather defensive. If you listen to the commentary during EVO, Static Manny is well-known for his Campy style and quite frankly he doesn't care. How about this? Go watch CEO again and listen to the commentary. There is a reason the commentators want to leave when Sonic was on stage. While 6wx is considered the "best sonic player" - camp style Sonic seems optimal.

Now about Villagers - There is a difference between Custom Villager and Ledgestalling Villager. There were 3 Custom Villagers at top 32 only one strictly plays the Ledgestalling game. CaptAwesum - Mr. LedgeStaller was finally kick out to another Custom Villager - SS (who doesn't stall from what we saw).

 

[TheHypnotoad]

All the moves you listed(like all customs) have drawbacks but as you are too lazy to do a little research you dont know them.

You view them as an upgrade because of sheep mentality that usual on ths kind of games and trading card games. Truth be told those moves are very good and players playstyles try to make the drawbacks less meaningful, but still, thats players achivement and no the move itself for not having drawbacks.

"Having a drawback" doesn't mean **** if the drawback is so minor compared to the advantages that the custom is just flat out superior.

 

[StarshipGroove]

It's like Custom supporters can't do anything but try to delegitimate anti-custom ppl and strawman crap
"you're too lazy to research!"
"you're ignorant!"
"you're biased!"
"top players are biased!"
"zero wants customs gone because he doesn't want to learn them!"
"you didn't know the use for one custom move! dismissed!"
"wah wah, you're all sheep!"

you still haven't proven that customs at evo helped improving character variety enough to justify the work spent on implementing them.

 

[Pazx]

you still haven't proven that customs at evo helped improving character variety enough to justify the work spent on implementing them.

How should custom supporters prove this? I would think the fact that there was 2 Wii Fit Trainers, a Palutena and a Charizard in top 32 is a good place to start, but I don't think anything's going to convince you if you've already made your mind up.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

I want to merge this with the other customs thread but I don't know how. @Shaya come rescue me!

 

[LabrysXII]

I'm neutral, I guess. After seeing some anti customs arguments, I lean more towards neutral than pro. If customs stay, they need to balance them. But if customs are gone, then they better buff characters like Palutena, who otherwise wouldn't see as much usage outside of customs. At least...that's my opinion I suppose.