On Custom Moves and their Future

[A_Kae]

The issue with the "cannot" edit is that many rules are exclusive. You cannot have both items on and off. You cannot have Custom Fighters on and off. You cannot play every stage all at once.
These choices must be made in order for competition to proceed.

Rules don't say "You cannot use Coin Battle" they state "Stock" and number of stock used.
So I guess you are saying they are not banning these things and we can all be at ease knowing Customs are not banned (even if Custom Fighters is set to Off for basic competitions).

But only allowing stock is the same as banning everything that could take its place. Coin and Time matches are, essentially, banned, even if it's done via an ingame toggle. Having customs required to be off in a tournament is the same as banning them.

By saying that stock matches have to be used, coin is banned. By saying that custom fighters have to be off, customs are banned. This isn't an option like character choice is, it's the rules of a tournament.

You can't seriously tell me that we don't ban items, right?

 

[Ghostbone]

You can't seriously tell me that we don't ban items, right?

If you watch a game with Diddy or Peach, you'll find your answer.

 

[Raijinken]

Doubles says otherwise.

I don't think I've ever seen an event say "Doubles side event starts at ____!" (Edit: Doubles referred to side event in this article). It's always just "There's Singles and there's Doubles. Entry fee ____. Part of entry fee goes into the pot." Can't say I've ever seen a pot for side events either, but it's not like the winnings are typically mentioned or listed during a stream. Which, at least based on my personal experience and observation, goes back to my point: the relevance or importance of the round plays a big role in determining interest.

Doubles is almost always treated as second-fiddle to the singles event, has fewer entrants than expected statistics would suggest, is effectively never streamed during the "prime time" hours of gaming streaming, and so on. It lives, yes, but it lives in the shadow of singles. And that's with it being generally just called Doubles Bracket, not Doubles Bracket Side Event.

Which is a shame, as personally I find doubles vastly more interesting to watch and play. Coincidentally, just like customs.

Anyways, if a ruleset disallows a certain setting/stage/character/whatever, that is, functionally, banned (seeing as a ban is simply a rule forbidding the use of a certain game element). So yes, we ban items that spawn outside of a character's control, the majority of stages, timed games without stock, coin mode, Special Smash, (at many tournaments) the Gamepad, Sudden Death. Logically, a no-customs tournament is a customs-banned tournament: toggling that option is (depending on the severity of your wording and enforcement) either cheating or voiding a match and wasting time.

 

[deepseadiva]

That's the exact same thing.

If a player does not have the option to select it in tournament its effectively banned.

I know there's an aversion to the wording since that implies some kind of logical backing, but that's exactly what that is.

 

[san.]

That's the exact same thing.

If a player does not have the option to select it in tournament its effectively banned.

I know there's an aversion to the wording since that implies some kind of logical backing, but that's exactly what that is.

I mean, yeah, I guess, but then you just run your mind in circles that whatever you're not doing is banning it. Calling it a toggle available in the game is just the proper definition without the headaches just makes much more sense to me. You also get to simplify the reasoning of why something was banned vs. choosing 1 setting vs. another in the game. It's simple, concise, and it works to use the game's settings and interfere when needed.

 

[Raijinken]

I mean, yeah, I guess, but then you just run your mind in circles that whatever you're not doing is banning it. Calling it a toggle available in the game is just the proper definition without the headaches just makes much more sense to me. You also get to simplify the reasoning of why something was banned vs. choosing 1 setting vs. another in the game. It's simple, concise, and it works to use the game's settings and interfere when needed.

If that reasoning works for you, by all means, go for it. But my mind runs in circles when people think that disallowing something via the rules, explicitly or implicitly, does not equate to banning it, unless the thing being disallowed is somehow a less-arbitrary exception to an arbitrary (if tested/debated) rule.

 

[san.]

If that reasoning works for you, by all means, go for it. But my mind runs in circles when people think that disallowing something via the rules, explicitly or implicitly, does not equate to banning it, unless the thing being disallowed is somehow a less-arbitrary exception to an arbitrary (if tested/debated) rule.

If there was a rule that disallowed something like a character or stage, that's banning. Choosing settings isn't banning and I can't see how that is.
I'll quote this part since I think this is most important:

Anyways, if a ruleset disallows a certain setting/stage/character/whatever, that is, functionally, banned (seeing as a ban is simply a rule forbidding the use of a certain game element).

Disallowance only seems to roughly = banning if there is no other way to access that resource. Setting items to low and none doesn't ban items since many characters spawn them. This may "effectively ban" Wario Man for instance, but if there was a way to get him in default settings, there would need to be a rule to interfere if it breaks competitive balance.

To me, banning something is something governed by the ruleset over implicit settings in the game. Aspects that don't exist are also effectively banned, but of course shouldn't be mentioned.

 

[cot(θ)]

Stock vs. Coin is a toggle - you can't have both at once. Customs on and off is not conceptually a toggle, regardless of the UI used for it in-game, because with customs on, you are freely allowing all combinations of special moves, including those which are allowed with customs off. When you turn customs off, you remove a bunch of possible movesets and don't replace them with anything. That's not a toggle - it's a ban.

 

[Ghostbone]

Stock vs. Coin is a toggle - you can't have both at once. Customs on and off is not conceptually a toggle, regardless of the UI used for it in-game, because with customs on, you are freely allowing all combinations of special moves, including those which are allowed with customs off. When you turn customs off, you remove a bunch of possible movesets and don't replace them with anything. That's not a toggle - it's a ban.

In a sense, but generally as the custom meta progresses we'll just end up with one optimal set for every character (or at least an optimal set for each matchup), so the custom toggle is really just a toggle between the 1111 form of a character and the 2211 form, as 11XX is inferior to 22XX. (just an example, don't know if this specifically applies to any character)

Sure the default meta is contained within the customs meta, but using a non optimal set is like using Diddy without bananas.

 

[cot(θ)]

In a sense, but generally as the custom meta progresses we'll just end up with one optimal set for every character (or at least an optimal set for each matchup), so the custom toggle is really just a toggle between the 1111 form of a character and the 2211 form, as 11XX is inferior to 22XX. (just an example, don't know if this specifically applies to any character)

Sure the default meta is contained within the customs meta, but using a non optimal set is like using Diddy without bananas.

Not only is your premise wrong, but your reasoning is unsound. Many characters have different sets which are useful in different matchups or to a lesser extent, on different stages (Piston Punch on Halberd vs. Helicopter Kick on Smashville, for example). Even if that were not the case, your statement is similar to claiming that a ban on the best character to the game is really a "toggle" between the best and second best characters in the game. It's a question of what is allowed to be used and explored, not what the best option is.

 

[Raijinken]

Not only is your premise wrong, but your reasoning is unsound. Many characters have different sets which are useful in different matchups or to a lesser extent, on different stages (Piston Punch on Halberd vs. Helicopter Kick on Smashville, for example). Even if that were not the case, your statement is similar to claiming that a ban on the best character to the game is really a "toggle" between the best and second best characters in the game. It's a question of what is allowed to be used and explored, not what the best option is.

I agree with this analysis (and your last one, too). There are also several customs that incorporate extents of player preference or riskiness into their choice without having a clear-cut "better" option (at least for now). All three forms of Monado Arts are supported by Shulk's moveset project because certain players want their buffs to last and are willing to sacrifice swappability, certain players want their buffs to be extremely short but allow kills at ~30% off of light hits, and some want the balanced approach between the two. Other things like the various Counters, DK's punches, Falcon Kicks, and so on, currently boil down to preference.

If, in the future, we somehow reach a point where each character had one optimal setup, that'd be completely fine with me, and honestly, I can't see why it wouldn't be desirable to most of the playerbase to have a character fighting in their optimal form (it even makes customs unlocking effectively easier, because instead of needing virtually everything, good luck will save time). I could still see some room for different customs for singles vs doubles, of course (for instance, Distant Nosferatu or something), but on the whole, it doesn't matter if we reach a single set per character if that single set is indisputably best.

But while we don't have such a set for each character, best to allow all (for tournaments that can logistically handle it), or at least a top-10 pick, to give characters the best chances possible.

 

[A_Kae]

In a sense, but generally as the custom meta progresses we'll just end up with one optimal set for every character (or at least an optimal set for each matchup), so the custom toggle is really just a toggle between the 1111 form of a character and the 2211 form, as 11XX is inferior to 22XX. (just an example, don't know if this specifically applies to any character)

Sure the default meta is contained within the customs meta, but using a non optimal set is like using Diddy without bananas.

To add a bit to what's been said in response to this.

Customs are kind of like character choice. Even if there is an optimal choice, people are still going to want to be able to use inferior things. We don't force people to use Sheik. Why should we force people to use a hypothetical best customs set?

And that's assuming that there is a definitively best set. I can't think of an example right now, but I'm sure there are characters who have different sets for different matchups or stages.

Edit: And of course, it's hard to say if a move is better than another overall. It might have different advantages and risks that make it better in some circumstances and worse in others. Maybe at some point we'll be able to say that one move is better than another, but not now. And player preference is still important.

Edit 2: I don't think I stated my point as well as I could have, so I'll just sum it up here: It's not about the best option, it's about what options are allowed. And it's hard to say what's truly best in this case anyways.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

To add a bit to what's been said in response to this.

Customs are kind of like character choice. Even if there is an optimal choice, people are still going to want to be able to use inferior things. We don't force people to use Sheik. Why should we force people to use a hypothetical best customs set?

And that's assuming that there is a definitively best set. I can't think of an example right now, but I'm sure there are characters who have different sets for different matchups or stages.

Edit: And of course, it's hard to say if a move is better than another overall. It might have different advantages and risks that make it better in some circumstances and worse in others. Maybe at some point we'll be able to say that one move is better than another, but not now. And player preference is still important.

Edit 2: I don't think I stated my point as well as I could have, so I'll just sum it up here: It's not about the best option, it's about what options are allowed. And it's hard to say what's truly best in this case anyways.

Anyone with a reflector or absorber will want to change it out depending on if the opponent has something that can be reflected/absorbed.

Mii Brawler likes Helicopter Kick on Smashville but may prefer Piston Punch on Halberd.

Duck Hunt's Mega Gunman is a good anti-zoning tool since it acts as a pretty beefy wall. But it's less effective against fast rushdown types IIRC, so default or Quick Draw Aces may be preferred in those matchups.

 

[blackghost]

there are only a few customs that are definitively better than the default. VERY few. power vision is the only one i can think of off the top of my head. maybe twisting fox as well. but even extremely good moves like twisting fox or on fire fire hydrant aren't universally preferred.

 

[T0MMY]

I don't think I've ever seen an event say "Doubles side event starts at ____!" It's always just "There's Singles and there's Doubles.

I don't think that supports the argument that anything but the headlining event gets ridiculed.

If something is good then people will want it - show it to them and they'll ask for more. Masquerading it as something else just feels too dishonest for me. Like I said, works very well for doubles (and 8-player, Amibo, etc.)
I have no qualms with introducing an new and non-standard gameplay (customs) properly to show its virtues. Smash will happen either way and I see no reason why I should be a dictator about how everyone else has to play my way as the headlining event displacing their preferred way when both can happen very easily.

By saying that stock matches have to be used, coin is banned. By saying that custom fighters have to be off, customs are banned. This isn't an option like character choice is, it's the rules of a tournament.
You can't seriously tell me that we don't ban items, right?

There is no need to ban items if the rules explicitly state the Items are set to OFF.

We can write "Items are banned" in the rules, but that is both unnecessary and sloppy rulescrafting - any player could make argument that if their opponent used characters that spawn items (Peach, G&W, Link, Duck Hunt, etc.) and they utilized these items then they have broken the ruling of "Items are banned".

Efficient rules which clearly state the in-game settings properly without unnecessary, out-of-game clauses that have loopholes is the trademark of a an experienced rulescrafter.

Customs on and off is not conceptually a toggle, regardless of the UI used for it in-game, because with customs on, you are freely allowing all combinations of special moves, including those which are allowed with customs off... That's not a toggle - it's a ban.

Your conceptualization of toggling may differ from my usage I had posted; I am referring to the game's Custom Fighters On/Off toggle button, implicitly defined by the game's UI (which should not be disregarded) and explicitly defined (in spoiler) below:

Spoiler

Toggle

(Computer Science) computing (often foll by: between) to switch to a different option, view, application, etc
To alternate between two or more electronic, mechanical, or computer-related options *
​

Button

In graphical user interface systems, a well-defined area within the interface that is clicked to select a command.*​

It is demonstrable and fully realized by any sensible person with access to the operable software that the game does have an option to toggle Custom Fighters "On".
To utilize this option as a standard in competitive play we would need reason why it is necessary for competition (and weigh that reasoning to be ruled on).

I don't think disregarding an obvious toggle button to create a concept of a "ban" that was never proclaimed nor pursued and attempting to shift burden of proof of said ban is the best course of action. We'll need something stronger.

Again, my proposed plan of properly introducing the game rules to be welcomed into a scene that has a staling metagame would seem to be a very strong solution.

 

[Raijinken]

there are only a few customs that are definitively better than the default. VERY few. power vision is the only one i can think of off the top of my head. maybe twisting fox as well. but even extremely good moves like twisting fox or on fire fire hydrant aren't universally preferred.

On Fire Hydrant sacrifices utility for damage (in exchange for extra risk and not hurting Red pikmin in that very specific matchup), and Twisting Fox has a pretty big startup time with no active hitboxes. Power Vision has its drawbacks, too, but it's one of those where the drawbacks are largely irrelevant at high-level play.

Boomerang (non-Gale) and Warlock Blade are generally considered to be pure-upgrades though. Same for Quick Skull Bash and Hyper Voice (since Sing is that garbage). Falcon Dash Punch, too, due to the sheer situationality of the base move. Shooting Star Bit is also darn close, since regular Star Bits are pretty bad. Not to mention the general "this is so much better" that can be applied to Palutena's and Mii's moves.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

Power vision is not necessarily better, for shulks that use counter a little more often the default is definitely better.

 

[Sandfall]

Power vision is not necessarily better, for shulks that use counter a little more often the default is definitely better.

If you're using Vision that often in a match, you're doing it wrong. Power Vision is better than Vision in every way, so long as you use your counter when you're supposed to.

Anyway, back on topic. I was all for customs until I actually played a few rounds against a Heavy Skull Bash Pikachu and a Trip Sapling + Explosive Balloon Trip Villager. Customs are a great idea in theory, but some of them are just too polarizing (not to mention the fact that they are a pain to unlock). They're definitely beatable, but are a chore to fight against. I want to actually have fun while I'm playing this game.

If the Sm4sh dev team eventually decides to balance customs, I'd probably be in support of them again.

 

[A_Kae]

If you're using Vision that often in a match, you're doing it wrong. Power Vision is better than Vision in every way, so long as you use your counter when you're supposed to.

Anyway, back on topic. I was all for customs until I actually played a few rounds against a Heavy Skull Bash Pikachu and a Trip Sapling + Explosive Balloon Trip Villager. Customs are a great idea in theory, but some of them are just too polarizing (not to mention the fact that they are a pain to unlock). They're definitely beatable, but are a chore to fight against. I want to actually have fun while I'm playing this game.

If the Sm4sh dev team eventually decides to balance customs, I'd probably be in support of them again.

About power vision: Yes, its drawback isn't nearly significant enough to bother using default over it, but it does have one. It's not directly better in every way.

As for customs, customs are getting changed though.

It might not be the changes that you want, but they are getting changed, at least.

 

[Sandfall]

About power vision: Yes, its drawback isn't nearly significant enough to bother using default over it, but it does have one. It's not directly better in every way.

As for customs, customs are getting changed though.

It might not be the changes that you want, but they are getting changed, at least.

This is all honestly being very nitpicky. You knew what I meant

The drawbacks of Power vision become negligible when you use the counter properly. Perhaps a case can be made to use default vision in Doubles/FFAs, but not for singles.

As for customs, I was more referring to actual significant balance changes, not minor tweaks. I still want them to remain useful, just not as polarizing as Wind Kong or Heavy Skull Bash (or any of Villager's customs, for that matter).

 

[A_Kae]

This is all honestly being very nitpicky. You knew what I meant

The drawbacks of Power vision become negligible when you use the counter properly. Perhaps a case can be made to use default vision in Doubles/FFAs, but not for singles.

As for customs, I was more referring to actual significant balance changes, not minor tweaks. I still want them to remain useful, just not as polarizing as Wind Kong or Heavy Skull Bash (or any of Villager's customs, for that matter).

Yeah, I just thought it needed saying. Nitpicking, but every single custom has some kind of drawback, even if it's essentially irrelevant. And power vision is one of those where it's almost completely superior.

Changes to customs haven't been very significant yet, only minor tweaks like you said. But I fully expect that to change soonish. EVO is coming up, and will (hopefully) provide good data on customs that can be used for balancing.

Still, there have been small changes. They aren't being ignored. I'm just hoping that it's a matter of not having enough real data to make the balancing choices.

 

[blackghost]

If the Sm4sh dev team eventually decides to balance customs, I'd probably be in support of them again.[/quote]


They have. and claiming the moves are a "chore" to fight against is an excuse. Shiek is a chore, diddy, and villager in general is a chore. that isnt a basis too ban those characters. Although i'm pro custom moves im more than willing to ban a few even if i personally dont have an isu ewith them. the only moves i think should be removed are trip sapling (no way to get rid of it), HSB (obvious reasoning is obvious), andkong cyclone (this is on the fence for me). Extreme balloon trip isnt much on its own.

 

[Charey]

Customs have been getting small balance changes, they are not the focus of patches because most big tournaments are not using them so it's harder for the devs to see anything off about them. I would expect more focus on balancing customs once they start getting used more, why balance things not used in competition?

 

[Sandfall]

They have. and claiming the moves are a "chore" to fight against is an excuse. Shiek is a chore, diddy, and villager in general is a chore. that isnt a basis too ban those characters. Although i'm pro custom moves im more than willing to ban a few even if i personally dont have an isu ewith them. the only moves i think should be removed are trip sapling (no way to get rid of it), HSB (obvious reasoning is obvious), andkong cyclone (this is on the fence for me). Extreme balloon trip isnt much on its own.

I was more referring to actual, significant balance changes, not minor tweaks or bugfixes. Let me rephrase it for you: If the Smash dev team decides to properly balance customs, then I'll be in support of them again.

Also, saying something is a chore to fight against isn't an excuse, it's my opinion. They make the game less fun to play for me. I want the games I play to be fun (cause, you know, that's the whole point of playing this game in the first place). Also, there's a significant difference between banning a menu option (customs on/off) and banning a character, so your comparison doesn't really apply there.

Customs are a great idea, but they were implemented so poorly that I don't really feel they are worth it unless some significant changes are made.

 

[blackghost]

What exactly is "properly balance" if not buffs and nerfs that they have been given? What convinced you they were out of balance? Because save for like 3 moves they are in balance everything has a weakness.
These moves weren't implemented poorly they were received predictably. Out of some 300 plus moves poeple cite 3 to 4 as problems literally one percent. Thats about the same percent as "problematic" default moves.
The pro customs side (many of us) are more than willing to sacrfice to see these moves used. I dont have fun playing defaut kirby or palutena. Toggling the custom fighters to OFF is banning these characters. for virtually no reason.

 

[Sandfall]

What exactly is "properly balance" if not buffs and nerfs that they have been given? What convinced you they were out of balance? Because save for like 3 moves they are in balance everything has a weakness.

You just answered your own question.

These moves weren't implemented poorly they were received predictably. Out of some 300 plus moves poeple cite 3 to 4 as problems literally one percent. Thats about the same percent as "problematic" default moves.

I was referring to the system overall (unlocking, selecting, etc.), not the moves themselves. Regardless, it's pretty obvious that a few of these moves are really poorly designed.

The pro customs side (many of us) are more than willing to sacrfice to see these moves used. I dont have fun playing defaut kirby or palutena. Toggling the custom fighters to OFF is banning these characters. for virtually no reason.

I think the word you're looking for is "nerf," not ban.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

I think we should ban the use of wavedashing in Melee.

I was more referring to actual, significant balance changes, not minor tweaks or bugfixes. Let me rephrase it for you: If the Smash dev team decides to properly balance customs, then I'll be in support of them again.

Wavedashing is very unbalanced. It benefits top tiers disproportionately, giving Fox easy damage through waveshining.

Also, saying something is a chore to fight against isn't an excuse, it's my opinion. They make the game less fun to play for me. I want the games I play to be fun (cause, you know, that's the whole point of playing this game in the first place).

It's not fun when an opposing Fox just waveshines me into an usmash for a KO. I also find it really frustrating trying to learn how to wavedash reliably; it takes a lot of effort and is boring and not fun. We should ban it.

Also, there's a significant difference between banning a menu option (customs on/off) and banning a character, so your comparison doesn't really apply there.

I agree. I was considering calling for a ban on Fox, but it's not good to ban characters. We should just ban this technique, we don't even need a toggle.

Customs are a great idea, but they were implemented so poorly that I don't really feel they are worth it unless some significant changes are made.

Wavedashing was implemented poorly because it benefits pro players and top tiers while hurting new players and bottom tiers.

(For the record, I do not actually support banning wavedashing.)

 

[Sandfall]

I think we should ban the use of wavedashing in Melee.



Wavedashing is very unbalanced. It benefits top tiers disproportionately, giving Fox easy damage through waveshining.



It's not fun when an opposing Fox just waveshines me into an usmash for a KO. I also find it really frustrating trying to learn how to wavedash reliably; it takes a lot of effort and is boring and not fun. We should ban it.



I agree. I was considering calling for a ban on Fox, but it's not good to ban characters. We should just ban this technique, we don't even need a toggle.



Wavedashing was implemented poorly because it benefits pro players and top tiers while hurting new players and bottom tiers.

(For the record, I do not actually support banning wavedashing.)

Lol. This is an awful analogy. Banning a game mechanic (albeit an unintentional one) and banning an optional menu toggle aren't comparable at all. There's really nothing more to be said about it.

It all boils down to fun. I don't have fun playing against the commonly used customs, therefore I don't support having them legal. That's really all there is to it. You guys aren't going to change my definition of fun by arguing to me about it.
I do love the general concept though, so it's pretty much just up to Nintendo to change my mind .

 

[deepseadiva]

Lol. This is an awful analogy. Banning a game mechanic (albeit an unintentional one) and banning an optional menu toggle aren't comparable at all. There's really nothing more to be said about it.

The problem with calling it a "menu toggle" is that the scope of the toggle is kind of enormous. In reality the "toggle" is access to some 500+ clone characters. Turning off customs is absolutely a character ban.

Please keep that in perspective. Calling it a toggle misrepresents the seriousness of what is being lopped off. Saying it's a "menu option toggle" makes it sound like a nail clipping, rather than a several-limb-amputation.

 

[Sandfall]

The problem with calling it a "menu toggle" is that the scope of the toggle is kind of enormous. In reality the "toggle" is access to some 500+ clone characters. Turning off customs is absolutely a character ban.

Please keep that in perspective. Calling it a toggle misrepresents the seriousness of what is being lopped off. Saying it's a "menu option toggle" makes it sound like a nail clipping, rather than a several-limb-amputation.

-_-
I am aware of the enormous scope of custom moves. That still doesn't change the fact that it is a menu toggle. My response was intended to contrast banning a game mechanic vs. banning something that can be changed outside of gameplay.

 

[cot(θ)]

Your conceptualization of toggling may differ from my usage I had posted; I am referring to the game's Custom Fighters On/Off toggle button, implicitly defined by the game's UI (which should not be disregarded).

It is demonstrable and fully realized by any sensible person with access to the operable software that the game does have an option to toggle Custom Fighters "On".
To utilize this option as a standard in competitive play we would need reason why it is necessary for competition (and weigh that reasoning to be ruled on).

I don't think disregarding an obvious toggle button to create a concept of a "ban" that was never proclaimed nor pursued and attempting to shift burden of proof of said ban is the best course of action. We'll need something stronger.

Let us perform a little thought experiment. Suppose, if you will, that there is no Customs On/Off toggle. Everything else about custom moves is the same - they take the same amount of time to unlock, we can still only have 10 custom movesets per character, all customs are locked by default (except Miis and Palutena), customs are not available in FG, and so on. The only difference is that there is no toggle, and every time a character is picked, the custom fighter selector comes up.

In this hypothetical scenario, do you think that we should consider allowing custom fighters as the "default" option? All the factors which are actually relevant to the legality of custom fighters are the same. If your methodology treats these two situations differently simply because of a UI change, then your line of reasoning is flawed at a very fundamental level.

 

[blackghost]

Let us perform a little thought experiment. Suppose, if you will, that there is no Customs On/Off toggle. Everything else about custom moves is the same - they take the same amount of time to unlock, we can still only have 10 custom movesets per character, all customs are locked by default (except Miis and Palutena), and so on. The only difference is that there is no toggle, and every time a character is picked, the custom fighter selector comes up.

In this hypothetical scenario, do you think that we should consider allowing custom fighters as the "default" option? All the factors which are actually relevant to the legality of custom fighters are the same. If your methodology treats these two situations differently simply because of a UI change, then your line of reasoning is flawed at a very fundamental level.

If custom moves were set to ON people acccept them, if for glory had just the moves and no equipment allowed people would accept them, if they had been in a previous smash game people would accept. having them off is a ban on characters there is no counter argument to that.

 

[LancerStaff]

Let us perform a little thought experiment. Suppose, if you will, that there is no Customs On/Off toggle. Everything else about custom moves is the same - they take the same amount of time to unlock, we can still only have 10 custom movesets per character, all customs are locked by default (except Miis and Palutena), customs are not available in FG, and so on. The only difference is that there is no toggle, and every time a character is picked, the custom fighter selector comes up.

In this hypothetical scenario, do you think that we should consider allowing custom fighters as the "default" option? All the factors which are actually relevant to the legality of custom fighters are the same. If your methodology treats these two situations differently simply because of a UI change, then your line of reasoning is flawed at a very fundamental level.

This isn't fantasy land. In the real world, yaknow, the one that matters, there's a toggle. The option to turn items off is just as justified as turning off customs.

Even then, we'd still have the option to delete the sets. If we couldn't delete the sets, turn them all to just the default moves.

And customs on doesn't include customs off. You still have to fight people using customs if it's on, and you're almost always at a disadvantage if you don't use customs. It's like turning items on and saying you don't need to use them, so then items on includes items off and is strictly better.

If custom moves were set to ON people acccept them, if for glory had just the moves and no equipment allowed people would accept them, if they had been in a previous smash game people would accept. having them off is a ban on characters there is no counter argument to that.

We still don't live in fantasy land, so none of that matters.

And characters have spots on the CSS, custom sets do not. Custom sets are custom sets and it's delusional to call them anything else.

 

[blackghost]

And customs on doesn't include customs off. You still have to fight people using customs if it's on, and you're almost always at a disadvantage if you don't use customs. It's like turning items on and saying you don't need to use them, so then items on includes items off and is strictly better.

Thats a statement from someone who doesn't know the moves. If i pick 3331 kirby and you pick shiek. You still have the better matchup. If you don't know the matchup thats on you use the internet and go learn them. The information is everywhere at this point. Don't speak about any fighting game in absolutes because there are none. EVERY time someone uses an items analogy it falls flat. Items are by nature random anbd custom moves (outside Game and watch) not random. You like some others are ignoring the fact that the GAME itself doesn't view custom alternative sets on miis as custom moves. miis have no defaulty moves by the game's logic. Arbitary rules set outside the game deemed them to be custom moves. I'm of the mindset (i'm in the minority) that the miis and palutena had thier moves choosen randomly hence why they don;t flow nearly as well as the other characters in the game (seriously a reflect AND a counter and a copy and paste special from mewtwo /zelda).

 

[T4ylor]

Custom moves are literally unlocked at random though ~

 

[Illuminose]

And customs on doesn't include customs off. You still have to fight people using customs if it's on, and you're almost always at a disadvantage if you don't use customs. It's like turning items on and saying you don't need to use them, so then items on includes items off and is strictly better.

Thats a statement from someone who doesn't know the moves. If i pick 3331 kirby and you pick shiek. You still have the better matchup. If you don't know the matchup thats on you use the internet and go learn them. The information is everywhere at this point. Don't speak about any fighting game in absolutes because there are none. EVERY time someone uses an items analogy it falls flat. Items are by nature random anbd custom moves (outside Game and watch) not random. You like some others are ignoring the fact that the GAME itself doesn't view custom alternative sets on miis as custom moves. miis have no defaulty moves by the game's logic. Arbitary rules set outside the game deemed them to be custom moves. I'm of the mindset (i'm in the minority) that the miis and palutena had thier moves choosen randomly hence why they don;t flow nearly as well as the other characters in the game (seriously a reflect AND a counter and a copy and paste special from mewtwo /zelda).

It's an analogy and an appropriate one for the scenario. He's not addressing competitive value. He's simply addressing the underlying ridiculousness of the statement that you can still use defaults in customs as if it was the default metagame when (character depending) it puts you at a disadvantage. It seems like you basically ignored his post though because none of the rest that you've written is even tangentially related to his post.

 

[blackghost]

i got a little off topic yes but i want to focus on his stament that custom moves automatically give one chaarcter an advantage which isnt true.

 

[deepseadiva]

If custom moves were set to ON people acccept them, if for glory had just the moves and no equipment allowed people would accept them, if they had been in a previous smash game people would accept. having them off is a ban on characters there is no counter argument to that.

This is very accurate. You can see the effects of For Glory on tournament rulesets by how they often run 2-stock, and even the 1111 Miis are banned.

Its hard for Smashers to adapt to a new game element. No shade, but I think a lot of it has to do with how much Melee spoiled us. It's a very "traditional" fighting game, and so we look back at it, and its simplicity, and we're upset with all the new features Nintendo keeps throwing at us. It really shakes the player base since so many do not understand them; a blanket character ban is the expected reaction.

 

[moofpi]

Personally I think customs are going to be fine. I'm very optimistic about performance at Evo. There were a lot of knee jerk reactions initially to customs like Wind Kong and ADHD Villager, but were soon proved to not be as infallible as people thought at first. I watch a LOT of competitive Smash 4 and have not seen a single ADHD Villager win a tournament. The only Wind Kong I've seen win is Average Joe who is a beast DK main either way. The VAST majority of custom tournaments are won by default characters like Luigi or Sheik anyway, so I don't see why people think it "breaks the game" when that is clearly not the case.

I think the top 8 in Evo may have Esam rocking the custom Pikachu sure (not that he wouldn't be there anyway) and the only Villager I think has a chance is Ranai from Japan who doesn't even play customs.

So I don't think the "jank" is going to get past the skill of players and we will hopefully see extremely innovative uses of certain movesets this year that will turn around any doubts some of the community had about it ruining the game or whatever. I think it will be fine.

 

[Raijinken]

This isn't fantasy land. In the real world, yaknow, the one that matters, there's a toggle. The option to turn items off is just as justified as turning off customs.

Even then, we'd still have the option to delete the sets. If we couldn't delete the sets, turn them all to just the default moves.

And customs on doesn't include customs off. You still have to fight people using customs if it's on, and you're almost always at a disadvantage if you don't use customs. It's like turning items on and saying you don't need to use them, so then items on includes items off and is strictly better.



We still don't live in fantasy land, so none of that matters.

And characters have spots on the CSS, custom sets do not. Custom sets are custom sets and it's delusional to call them anything else.

EVO's results today would notably imply that you are not at a disadvantage if you don't use customs.

Instead you're at a disadvantage if you don't use Sheik or Diddy.

The upper end of the event had very few customs-users. Abadango didn't use any customs on Pac-Man, and only one on Wario (Speeding Bike). I know he used Shooting Star Bit, but I can't recall whether or not he used Luma Warp.
ESAM used Thunderwave HSB frequently, but there were several cases in which he opted for default Thundershock (HSB is another of those near-pure upgrades though). However, he didn't win, or even come top-4.

Nairo utilized an alternate blaster for Zamus for extra range against Sheik. Lost the matchup anyway, came in 3rd.

I didn't follow Mr R through the tournament, but I believe he was running default Sheik all the way through. He came in 2nd.

The event was won by a default "double-nerfed" Diddy Kong.

Whether for an attempt to sound neutral (despite the obvious ignorance and dislike of customs from several casters, including D1) or whatever else, the commentators seemed convinced that customs did not, in any identifiable way, cause any sort of upset resulting in an undeserved win by a lesser player. So in essence, you actually don't need to use customs, just like you don't need to use Sheik. But failure to prepare when the ruleset, terms, and sets have been known for months is literally nothing but willful ignorance with a convenient scapegoat.

-_-
I am aware of the enormous scope of custom moves. That still doesn't change the fact that it is a menu toggle. My response was intended to contrast banning a game mechanic vs. banning something that can be changed outside of gameplay.

As for custom sets being custom sets, what, then, happens to Miis? Customs Off includes every possible combination of Mii up to the limit storable on the console. Not accusing you specifically of doing this, but many players and TOs tend to assume Customs Off == Miis Off, which is not reflective of reality by any menu toggle argument. To say nothing of the functional issues with your "I don't find them fun so I oppose them" stance (ban Sheik pls).