Olimar too weak?

[TboneH]

I mean, I get that he was OP in Brawl, but with top tier characters in Brawl getting huge buffs (I'm looking at you Lucario, also Wario), I find it a bit ridiculous that he was nerfed so hard. I feel like meta knight didn't even get nerfed that badly, and we all know how good he was. I've found that with 4 pikmin it's a lot harder to compete. Olimar IS his pikmin. Pretty much all of his moves that matter use them. Removing pikmin not only makes his recovery worse but also represents a drastic decrease in pressuring ability because if you spam your pikmin throw too much, you could be left with basically no attack power or far off the edge with no recovery. Also, since the play speed is so much faster than in brawl, he doesn't have much time to pull more pikmin, especially on the smaller stages. And he no longer has super armor frames during his whistle? That was essential to him in Brawl. I don't know, maybe I'm just playing him wrong. But either way, you can't argue with the fact that he is worse than his brawl counterpart, and in a game where basically every character was made better I don't think that makes much sense. Anyways, that's just my 2 cents. Any comments or rebuttals are welcome. Just don't get too butthurt if you really like Olimar, I'm not trying to start a flame war here, so keep it civil please.

 

[Xermo]

Learn the character better first before complaining that he's garbage. Olimar has recovery tools to compensate loss of pikmin (B special). You also say he has no time to pluck additional pikmin. You have enough time every stock to pluck 3 before invincibility wears off, so unless you're throwing them all off the cliff during battle, you should have plenty of time to draw a 4th one. You can't keep playing the character with a campy brawl mentality if you expect to get good with him. Olimar doesn't need to be a second lucario to be good.

 

[9bit]

Try not to think of Project M as taking Brawl and balancing it. Try to think of it as putting Brawl characters in a Melee environment.The tier a character was in Brawl has no bearing on their buffs or nerfs in this game -- they are balanced around a new playing environment.

I'm not familiar with any iteration of Olimar, but you may be trying to play him too much like you would in Brawl. Try to think of him as a different / new character and go from there.

For instance, in PM, his Pikmin grow stronger the longer they are alive, which discourages spamming Side-B or losing them in general. You have to play him differently. Also, his recovery isn't as bad as you think. Neutral-B in the air gives him a slight boost (once) and his Up-B also has a boost before he throws out the Pikmin chain. And tethering works differently than in Brawl. You can grab the ledge with your tether even if someone is already on it.

Hopefully someone who knows more about Olimar will come in here and chime in, but that's some of the stuff I've noticed from my brief experiences with him.

Edit: also check out the Olimar section for more discussion on him.

 

[IronChar]

...I agree with TC.

Omliar needs 5 pikmin. why take away 1 from brawl?

 

[Shadic]

Please put character-specific stuff in their respective subforums, thanks.

 

[HyperrCrow]

...I agree with TC.

Omliar needs 5 pikmin. why take away 1 from brawl?

He carries 6 in Brawl

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

He carries 6 in Brawl

These people keep forgetting that! The 5 comes from the different types of pikmin :v

 

[IronChar]

whoops I just came back from playing brawl and saw six and was like "crap I'll be called out for that"

yeah, why take away 2 pikmin?

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

Olimar is amazing the way he is. A fantastic transition from brawl to PM. He is not the campy range having astronaut he used to be, but he's been altered that he has options so that he can still zone but punish a lot more aggressively than brawl. He's no longer a ridiculous chore to get in on but he still retains options that make him both dangerous to approach or rewarding to approach with.

Learn the damn character guys. New game, new stuff. Stop comparing, start experimenting. If it turns out something essential to the char from brawl needs to be in PM, so be it, but by week two-three? That just shows a serious lack of insentive to help progress this game

 

[TboneH]

Xermo, aside from the fact that your comment was laced with hostility and condescension, you also didn't read what I had to say. I never said he was garbage, and I specifically mentioned that perhaps I need to learn to play him better. I'm simply making the point that in a game filled with characters that I honestly think are overpowered, I don't see the need to remove so much of what made Olimar good. I don't think he's a BAD character at all, he's definitely still viable. But I consider myself a pretty decent player and I've had a lot harder time playing him than say, Snake (ranged stun WTF). I think a lot of you are giving the creators of project M a little too much credit. Yes, they are amazing, but they are not demigods that are impervious to error. Nintendo did their best to balance all three smash bros games and look where that got them. It's almost impossible to create a balanced game with a cast this large, and project M is no exception. I think that project M is definitely the closest we've ever gotten, but there are still some characters that are better than others. So instead of refusing to actually read what I said and simply listing his attributes that I am already aware of, if we could have a civil discussion about why I'm either right or wrong that would be great. LD50, I'd like to thank you for actually saying something constructive, I see what you're saying about thinking of is as a new environment, and the things you mentioned definitely improved my view of him. DiSQO, you however were very general, and simply saying he is amazing doesn't really say much. You aren't Mango, your opinion does not hold that much weight behind it. If you could give me some examples of what you are are talking about, that would be great. I'm looking for hard facts here guys. Also, I think it's in poor spirit to assume that everyone on here has had project M since the day the latest version was released. I'm new at this, go a little easy on me.

 

[HyperrCrow]

Stating whether Olimar is amazing or not good enough can't be said quite yet. The latest version has only been out for a week. It takes more than a week to figure things out regarding characters, specially someone with such a unique play style as Oli.

I'm simply making the point that in a game filled with characters that I honestly think are overpowered, I don't see the need to remove so much of what made Olimar good. I don't think he's a BAD character at all, he's definitely still viable..

To expand on this, no one in Project M is overpowered, not even the spacies. Tournament results are a testament to that.
Also what made Olimar good in Brawl was the fact that he had such a large number of pikmin at his disposal, which let players get away with tossing them carelessly because they had such a big number and could replenish them easily due to the slow engine. With his pikmin cut almost in half it makes players re-think their strategy and preserve the pikmin more because in a faster paced environment Oli players only really have breathing room between stocks. Essentially PM just morphed his "hit and run" strategy into an actual strategy where you have to cherish your pikmin in order to succeed and make Oli stronger.

You aren't Mango, your opinion does not hold that much weight behind it.

Mango doesn't even really play PM, his opinion doesn't hold any weight either. You don't have to be a smash pro in order to notice good/bad design.

Also, I think it's in poor spirit to assume that everyone on here has had project M since the day the latest version was released. I'm new at this, go a little easy on me.

You can't pull the "I'm new go easy on me" card when you basically just told someone their opinion is irrelevant because they're not Mango. If it's poor spirit to assume everyone has had 3.0 since its release, then it's in poor spirit to hack apart a character that's only been out for a week. If you've picked up 3.0 a bit after its first day then properly dissect it before making claims. 1-3 days of playing a character gives you no right to deem them too weak or strong.

 

[TboneH]

You can't pull the "I'm new go easy on me" card when you basically just told someone their opinion is irrelevant because they're not Mango. If it's poor spirit to assume everyone has had 3.0 since its release, then it's in poor spirit to hack apart a character that's only been out for a week. If you've picked up 3.0 a bit after its first day then properly dissect it before making claims. 1-3 days of playing a character gives you no right to deem them too weak or strong.

You're right, I should not have said that. However, he was rude to me so I responded in turn. And I know Mango doesn't play PM (or at least not regularly) but he is a god, so I would tend to believe anything he said regarding smash bros LOL. But in regards to hacking apart a character, I should emphasize that I'm not saying Olimar is bad, heck I don't even think he's BAD, I think he just doesn't compare. But I'm in no position to make that claim. What I am doing is making claims to support my opinion, not hacking him apart. And I'm more than happy to see someone disprove me! I want you to actually, because I like Olimar as a character and it makes me sad to see him get trounced by the likes of Peach. LD50 already did a bit. But if someone were to debunk my entire opinion, that would be awesome. HyperrCrow, I think you described his transition from Brawl to PM perfectly, but even the very way you described it makes him seem a bit underpowered, don't you think? If you've only got breathing room between stocks, and two pikmin die, you're probably going to take damage if you try to pull pikmin while facing a good opponent.

 

[HyperrCrow]

HyperrCrow, I think you described his transition from Brawl to PM perfectly, but even the very way you described it makes him seem a bit underpowered, don't you think? If you've only got breathing room between stocks, and two pikmin die, you're probably going to take damage if you try to pull pikmin while facing a good opponent.

I wouldn't say underpowered per say, just that he became a lot more strategic based than before. When switching to the faster paced engine his play style wasn't efficient enough so the PMBR accommodated by giving him a few new strengths. His pikmin are a lot harder to kill now, so the breathing room between stocks isn't too bad because your pikmin will only die if you manage them badly.
Honestly, I just feel like Oli is a high risk, high reward character unless you know what you're doing.

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

Tbone, I will have replays this Sunday, so that I can share the knowledge I know, and hopefully you can add your knowledge and we can better this character. I don't really know what to tell you about the char that would change your outlook so I won't bother with that. I am however, a brawl player who played quite a bit of oli, and I think he does fine in PM. But like you said, I am but a simple random, so my word is but wind in the ears of your finely tuned mind.

 

[TboneH]

Tbone, I will have replays this Sunday, so that I can share the knowledge I know, and hopefully you can add your knowledge and we can better this character. I don't really know what to tell you about the char that would change your outlook so I won't bother with that. I am however, a brawl player who played quite a bit of oli, and I think he does fine in PM. But like you said, I am but a simple random, so my word is but wind in the ears of your finely tuned mind.

Hey man, don't take offense. I simply returned the treatment I received from you in the first place. If my opinion doesn't matter to you then yours doesn't matter to me, but at least I made an attempt to back mine with evidence. I'm looking for facts here, not general statements. You say he can punish more effectively. How? Don't just say these things, I want to know why you're saying them so, provided they are true, I can take them into account and get better at playing Olimar.

I wouldn't say underpowered per say, just that he became a lot more strategic based than before. When switching to the faster paced engine his play style wasn't efficient enough so the PMBR accommodated by giving him a few new strengths. His pikmin are a lot harder to kill now, so the breathing room between stocks isn't too bad because your pikmin will only die if you manage them badly.
Honestly, I just feel like Oli is a high risk, high reward character unless you know what you're doing.

Maybe that's it. Maybe in order to be good you have to just be really good at managing your pikmin. But my problem is that when I try to keep track of them better it drastically decreases my pressuring ability. Then again, I'm no pro. I'd like to see what a tournament level player could do with him. Also, can anyone shed some light on his up aerial? It has a strange hitbox, and it definitely doesn't seem to be multihit like it was in brawl, which also smells like nerf to me.

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

In order for oli to be good, you need to look at the character and actually play it, experiment. There's a thread where we discuss oli stuff, go read.

Also, if your new to the game, don't say dumb stuff like oli is weak.
On top of that, don't compare players validity to that of players like mango. You probably aren't **** good either.

 

[Shin_Mazinkaiser]

People like Tbone are what's wrong with the P:M community.

3.0 hasn't been out 2 weeks (And by extension, P:M Olimar) and you wanna try to tell people he's bad?

I'm kind of stepping on the toes of many individuals within the thread, but you need to play the damn character and stop whining because he's not the same character with no commitment on his moves.

No. You can't mindlessly toss Pikmin. No. You can't mindlessly throw smashes with no chance of being punished. Yes. You actually have to have a BRAIN to play this version of Olimar.

The simple fact that Olimar can't be edge-guarded for FREE by a simple edge grab is a HUGE improvement to the character. On top of which, he has new off stage recovery options so there's a lot to be thankful for here.

Saying that dissenting opinions don't matter when they are not top level (Mango) is just a level of idiotic that I can't even believe I HAVE to describe.

So what, YOUR opinions are supposed to matter to others? I suppose you're above Mango since you're trying to pass of your opinions as law.

Tl;DR Stop whining , buckle down, and LEARN your character.

 

[TboneH]

Holy crap you guys still aren't reading what I'm saying. YOU are what is wrong with this community, because you are condemning me based on your rampant emotions rather than rational thought. This is the last time I'm going to say it. I'M NOT JUST SAYING HE IS BAD. I'm not just making a claim and expecting everyone to believe me because I said so. But you guys, on the other hand, you're accusing me of just saying he is bad and expecting people to believe me when that is clearly not what I'm doing, and then going ahead and saying he is good and expecting people to believe you! In what world does that line of thought make sense?? I'm PROPOSING my opinion that he is subpar (notice I said subpar, not bad) and backing it up with a list of reasons why I think so, and I'm more than welcome to have people disprove me, provided that it is in a calm, friendly and non-condescending demeanor. A few of you have done that, namely LD50, and because of him I have conceded that Oli's recovery, provided you have a full chain of pikmin, is actually pretty good. However, the main thing I am skeptical about, is actually maintaining that full chain while retaining the ability to pressure your opponent. And quit telling me to learn my character. I've been playing Oli constantly for the last week, and I can't seem to make any progress. THAT'S WHY I'M HERE. I wan't people to tell me what I'm doing wrong. I know that there are people out there far more knowledgeable than me and I want to tap into that knowledge. I shouldn't have to grind for a few months simply because 3.0 just came out, if I'm going to get better at Olimar this is the best way to do it.

Shin, you say I'm saying his opinion doesn't matter. I only said that because he treated me exactly the same in the first place. Also, I firmly believe that opinions, unless they come from fact or from someone of great influence and knowledge, fundamentally do not matter. I'm not one to take something as fact from someone just because they said so. Sure, I can take it into account, but unless you've got some sort of evidence to back it up you can't expect people to care about what you are saying. Also, there is no whining going on here, at least not by me. I'm trying so hard to have a rational discussion but the rest of you aren't having any of it. And I'm definitely not saying that my opinions are law, and the fact that you could get that out of what I wrote suggests a level of reading comprehension so low it's astonishing.

Now, can we please get back to having a rational discussion of his strengths and weaknesses? It's not that hard.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Stop. You're legitamtely giving me a head ache. If you wanted to have a civilized discussion about his strengths, weakness and differences from brawl, you could have tried a little harder to make seem that way. You made this thread saying how he was nerfed so hard in several aspects, how his brawl form is superior, you mentioned how other brawl characters got huge buffs and you want a normal and civilized conversation about him? Did you forget? 3.0 just came out??? Lol

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I also don't know that much about the character to say if he is over- or underpowered, but I think starting with 2 or 3 pikmin at the beginning of the stock would be nice. It gives Olimar a bit of starting momentum, considering how weak he is without pikmin. Similar to Lucario starting with a Spirit Bomb every stock. But could also be a bad idea, don't really now

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I also don't know that much about the character to say if he is over- or underpowered, but I think starting with 2 or 3 pikmin at the beginning of the stock would be nice. It gives Olimar a bit of starting momentum, considering how weak he is without pikmin. Similar to Lucario starting with a Spirit Bomb every stock. But could also be a bad idea, don't really now

He starts with 3 random pikmin...

 

[TboneH]

Stop. You're legitamtely giving me a head ache. If you wanted to have a civilized discussion about his strengths, weakness and differences from brawl, you could have tried a little harder to make seem that way. You made this thread saying how he was nerfed so hard in several aspects, how his brawl form is superior, you mentioned how other brawl characters got huge buffs and you want a normal and civilized conversation about him? Did you forget? 3.0 just came out??? Lol

"Anyways, that's just my 2 cents. Any comments or rebuttals are welcome." Can you read? I clearly said that my opinions are just that. OPINIONS. I tried to make a rational argument to support them as well, and straight up welcomed people to tell me I was wrong. I'm not afraid to be wrong, unlike a lot of you it seems. In fact, I want to be wrong. I want you to tell me ways I can use Olimar to his full potential.

He starts with 3 random pikmin...

He means at the beginning of a stock after you die... not the beginning of the game...

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

He starts with 3 random pikmin...

In his entry animation yes, but not when you die and respawn. I personally love the new Olimar (though I mainly play Solomar, who seems to be hated on this forum, so you can take my opinions with a grain of salt if you want too). His recovery has had a major boost in power from Brawl and I love how you can still get height with no Pikmin. Project M`s Olimar gives me a character that I have to think about when playing and not just Brawl`s "When in doubt, THROW MORE PIKMIN!" I personally like the new change to only four pikmin because I don`t have to manage as much as I would have to with six. Olimar feels much better then his Brawl iteration and I can`t wait to progress my tactics with him.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

When you die and respawn, there is enough invincibility to pull 3 pikmin. This thread is stupid. A good bit of what has already been said, is just being repeated.
#lockmahbe

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

When you die and respawn, there is enough invincibility to pull 3 pikmin. This thread is stupid. A good bit of what has already been said, is just being repeated.
#lockmahbe

I know, I was just explaining what he meant.

 

[Xermo]

You assume I hadn't read, let alone comprehended the meaning to your post. You seem to be in the same position. My post was "laced with hostility" because the game hasn't even been out for more than 2 weeks and here you come, on a fresh account, making a thread with a title that is going to immediately draw negative attention if one assumes you're just an average brawl player thinking Oli got nerfed and sucks. You've read too deep into my post and assumed everything I said was an assumption you've made, not to mention you seemed to let my attitude cloud the actual advice I gave (not playing like brawl). Of course you didn't say specifically he's garbage. Just because I used the word garbage doesn't mean I've implied you thought he was garbage. Now that you've established you aren't some random that's complaining of missing mechanics on their favourite character, I'm more obligated to give you an answer you desire.

 

[TboneH]

I get what you're saying Xermo. But yeah, that's not what I'm about. I'm more of a captain falcon guy myself actually. But I can and do play every character in the game so when I'm struggling with a character I turn to places like this.

When you die and respawn, there is enough invincibility to pull 3 pikmin. This thread is stupid. A good bit of what has already been said, is just being repeated.
#lockmahbe

Yeah, it is stupid. But it's only stupid because no one is putting in any effort and everyone's raging and making rash assumptions. I think what chesstiger was saying is that he'd rather see olimar start off with a few pikmin so he didn't have to waste his invincibility frames pulling them and could instead immediately attack. In a fast paced game like PM I think that might not be such a bad idea.

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

I usually only find raging appropriate when the person I`m arguing with is particularly stupid (Like the guy who was arguing that Metal Sonic and Sonic are the same character yet simultaneously agreeing that they arn`t the same character, just think about that one for a minute) So I hope you don`t take this post as raging or being rash as you seem to be a fairly level headed person.

In smash we have never really had a tactical character that needed careful planning and knowledge of your opponent to be good with (Yay Rosalina!). Ice Climbers was the closest we got but for the life of me I can`t get those two to separate. I was hoping for Olimar to be that character that I have been waiting for and Brawl did not deliver that at all. In Project M I feel like I have that character now. I now need to think ahead instead of just throw all my Pikmin at the enemy. You may think olimar is sub-par or weak but I feel that you just arn`t thinking tactically to see the full extent of his character.

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

If you really wanna learn more about oli, partake in the Oli discussion thread. Play the char with us, and be optimistic.

You literally made a thread, MADE A THREAD, titled Olimar too weak, heavily compared him to brawl, discussed his needs but other chars buffs, didn't say a ****in word about why oli is good in PM, and then had the audacity to turn into a victim when you got ****stormed.

Lock this thread someone please.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]