bokunosmashbros
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2015
- Messages
- 8
Oh, definitely. Whites have good grab range too and do a ton of pummel damage.I prefer throwing white when they are leaves and grabbing (pummels) when they are bloomed
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Oh, definitely. Whites have good grab range too and do a ton of pummel damage.I prefer throwing white when they are leaves and grabbing (pummels) when they are bloomed
Most in the game and the second hit seems almost instanteneousOh, definitely. Whites have good grab range too and do a ton of pummel damage.
if u need to know about that matchup ss and professor pro are in the same pool at paragon so we're about to see some good **** with thatI cant find snake vs. olimar
+1 Olimar. Olimar's got so many tools to out space and out camp Bowser in neutral. Pikmin tossing is incredable useful since the Bowser can only swat them of with either a laggy move or his jab and that makes him susceptible to their affect. Bowser of course is also severely comboed by Olimar not that that's a surprise. That's not to say Bowser is completely dominated, he's got some good going for him. Bowser can really make use of Oli's lack luster recovery with really hard punishes. Also if the Bowser is very dominant in the neutral game Olimar can have trouble find options to get stage control back. Overall in Olimar's advantage but very doable for Bowser.
Olimar should never, ever recover against bowser.
Nair is probably bowser's best option for getting pikmin off of him. Flame breath is still all right assuming pikmin get hit by transcendent hitboxes (not sure on that one).
It might be hard to find many Bowsers with a lot of experience against olimar.
Extremely tough MU for Bowser. Most important thing for Oli is probably to be able to SH -> side B -> waveland.
So if I'm off stage I should just let myself plummet to my doom. Can't argue with that. I forgot about Bowser's N-Air, yeah that might be a better option then a stationary jab.
Oli's nair alone poops on Bowser.
also why doesn't Bowser's nair always get Pikmin off of him it's so ****ing dumb
I'd say it's +2 Oli's favor.
Pivot Grabs, Nair and Fsmash make approaching Oli pretty hard for Bowser. Even worse, we have Pikmin Slide, allowing us to keep playing neutral forever if need be without skipping a beat (but he'll approach eventually) and/or bait out moves to punish. We juggle him for days with late Nair > Up Tilts/Up Smashes > Up Airs or Up Throw > Up Tilts/Up Smashes > Up Airs and can easily send him off stage after that with Fair/Bair and finish it with another Fair/Bair for the edgeguard or just Dair him.
As for stages, avoid small stages like the plague (think YS, WL, maybe GHZ). You should go for big stages, but most of those have platforms that Bowser can use to get around with wavelands, kind of rendering the reason to go there (running away while chucking pikmin at him cause he's too slow to keep up) moot. FD is probably the best pick because it lacks platforms (taking away movement options for Bowser) and isn't small. Small stages are good for Bowser, but it goes both ways; he takes up more space, but in turn has a harder time avoiding grabs and the like, so it's not the end of the world if you screw up bans.
Idk if I'm missing something, but we win neutral, we probably win in punishing and go even in the edgeguarding department (Bowser's Bair is terrifying 9.9 ). It sounds pretty disgusting to play as Bowser tbh. I'd like more input on what Oli should watch out for or how to DI x thing from Bowser from @Odds_ or someone. I'd say how to DI Up Smash (down and away at really low percents, up and away at higher percents) and the like, but Bowser is so fat that it doesn't matter most of the time.
I feel like any character that can hold neurtal forever is a really bad match up for bowser, but maybe with flames and the right gimps and movement (patience and safe plays) it may be 40-60 (which honestly can be way worse for a character who can camp to such a nasty degree
this is what the oli skype group said about the mu
[8/31/15, 7:30:20 PM] steelguttey: yo
[8/31/15, 7:30:26 PM] steelguttey: im starting the matchup thread up again
[8/31/15, 7:30:28 PM] steelguttey: its booser time
[8/31/15, 7:54:23 PM] RiDEL: Already writing my thoughts.
[8/31/15, 8:17:15 PM] Ryan Knight: I play Oli and Bowser but haven't done this MU from either side in 3.6
[8/31/15, 8:17:31 PM] Ryan Knight: never even played against Oli with my Bowser
[8/31/15, 8:19:46 PM] solideem: The MU Olimar was made for
[8/31/15, 8:22:57 PM] Ryan Knight: I played Odds in a set in 3.6b but that's not enough for me to get any reliable info from
[8/31/15, 8:23:25 PM] solideem: not reliable
[8/31/15, 8:23:32 PM] solideem: but you definitely have authority to speak your mind
[8/31/15, 8:23:48 PM] solideem: on how you feel since you played, one of the premier mains with that character in a set
[8/31/15, 8:24:47 PM] Ryan Knight: bowser's bair invalidates oli's recovery but Oli dominates the neutral game in every way
[8/31/15, 8:24:58 PM] solideem: YUPPPPPPPPPPPP
[8/31/15, 8:25:04 PM] Ryan Knight: but if Oli gets touched it seems like he dies
[8/31/15, 8:25:54 PM] Ryan Knight: it was actually the quickest set I ever played
[8/31/15, 8:26:08 PM] solideem: Olimar's a glass cannon.
[8/31/15, 8:26:13 PM] Ryan Knight: every stock from each of us was pretty much a 0-death
[8/31/15, 8:26:15 PM] solideem: you're entirely right.
[8/31/15, 8:27:15 PM] solideem: at least, from my experience ein the MU
[8/31/15, 8:27:40 PM] Ryan Knight: but Odds is just so good that he can get around it being a bad mu
[8/31/15, 8:27:53 PM] Ryan Knight: against me anyways
[8/31/15, 8:27:59 PM] solideem: you're either on the ground, r you're on your way out of a stock
[8/31/15, 8:28:03 PM] solideem: Even with your skill level
[8/31/15, 8:28:09 PM] solideem: I'm sure it was interesting for him
[8/31/15, 8:28:14 PM] solideem: trying to figure out what to do in the MU
[8/31/15, 8:29:19 PM] Ryan Knight: FD seems like the stage to go imo for Oli
[8/31/15, 8:29:53 PM] Ryan Knight: no platforms to give Bowser his movement and it makes it way harder for him to bait out attacks
[8/31/15, 8:30:10 PM] solideem: this is one of our "Keep away MU's"
[8/31/15, 8:30:17 PM] solideem: we really don't have to fight bowser
[8/31/15, 8:31:43 PM] Ryan Knight: the thing I found is because Bowser has really good movement options on stages with platforms it's easy for him to corner Oli
[8/31/15, 8:31:54 PM] solideem: only on stages with platforms
[8/31/15, 8:32:06 PM] solideem: I like to play king of the hill vs bowser
[8/31/15, 8:32:12 PM] solideem: find a stage like battlefield, sv
[8/31/15, 8:32:18 PM] solideem: ghz
[8/31/15, 8:32:24 PM] solideem: and play my *** of to keep center stage
[8/31/15, 8:32:43 PM] Ryan Knight: I would personally never take a Bowser to battlefield
[8/31/15, 8:32:49 PM] Ryan Knight: a good one anyways
[8/31/15, 8:33:01 PM] solideem: you may not get that option
[8/31/15, 8:33:06 PM] solideem: not taking him anywhere with platforms
[8/31/15, 8:33:09 PM] solideem: except maybe ps2
[8/31/15, 8:33:27 PM] solideem: because they're far enough outside of center stage where options still present themselves without ge3tting you cornered
[8/31/15, 8:34:48 PM] Ryan Knight: I think if a tourney is using the bottom middle 5 as starters, they all favour Oli except battlefield
[8/31/15, 8:36:46 PM] Ryan Knight: maybe it's just from my experiences, but Odds just makes Bowser look like sonic with his movement on that stage
[8/31/15, 8:39:36 PM] solideem: Yoshi's (Melee,) BF, Wario Ware alllll must go.
[8/31/15, 8:40:01 PM] solideem: just the nature of the matchup.He's designed to try to get in on an opening from the opponent
[8/31/15, 8:40:27 PM] solideem: Olimar zones bowser so well
[8/31/15, 8:41:48 PM] solideem: Aerial Bowser is sub par, because his aerial mobility is slow and most of his moves we can cover off reaction (except a side )
[8/31/15, 8:43:20 PM] Ryan Knight: once you're underneath bowser, the only thing he can do is go for a platform
[8/31/15, 8:43:48 PM] Ryan Knight: or bowser bomb to the ledge
[8/31/15, 8:43:56 PM] solideem: Once you're underneath bowser you make him ****ing regret his ******* decision of commiting to an option that placed him over one of the best jugglers in the entire game
[8/31/15, 8:44:14 PM] solideem: or so I've heard
[8/31/15, 10:28:10 PM] steelguttey: is it weird to say that i like that we have a bad recovery cus it enhances the high risk high reward jazz we have goin on
[8/31/15, 10:28:21 PM] steelguttey: but yea you guys basically got the mu covered on all places
[8/31/15, 10:28:43 PM] steelguttey: theres a bug with booser where you throw a pikmin at one of his spikes
[8/31/15, 10:29:01 PM] steelguttey: and the pikmin starts hitting bowser, but bowser cant get the pikmin off and the pikmin cant do damage to bowser
[8/31/15, 10:29:03 PM] steelguttey: so literally nothing happens
uh i think my thoughts on the mu are... bowser is a really annoying character if yo udont know his di patterns, i suggest going to the bowser boards and asking which ways to di his throws and his confirms cus he ****in hurts if you di incorrectly. anyway, on olimars side its real easy. throw pikmin and when he approaches, fsmash. the only real neutral option he has is blame breath and you can just hop on a platform and wait. then reset to neutral. pretty easy. just keep throwing pikmin, eventually he has to smarten up and hit them off then you just punish his laggy ass moves. snoooore. he edgeguards you hella hard thoYea thats basically what i figured it would be like, a giant game of tag and keep away. Does olimar have a chain grab to a certain percent on bowser?
Mostly this IMO. I feel if we put it in numbers it's about even (50-50) or slightly in Falcon's favor (65-45).I am a good olimar and i played a good falcon and its rough but olimar can gimp falcon really badly, but falcon can edgeguard olimar equally badly. Olimar cant really camp falcon (but who can really) and falcon can pressure olimar really hard but if olimar gets a grab, its gonna hurt.
So I ended up not being able to go to Exposure today due to irl stuff.
My step brother plays Charizard a little though and I know a little bit of info about the matchup, I just wanted to sit down with Metroid and discuss it with someone who would beat my *** with the character.
This matchup is better for both characters than either side will probably give credit for due to not actually experiencing it for themselves. All in all I do think it's a little more in Olimar's favor, but Charizard has some fairly good tools to use vs Olimar as well. A few notes about the winged lizard though:
He's fast on the ground, and his dash dance is really good for a large character.
His N-Air is amazing, especially when he's facing away from you. This move can start combos, end combos, get Star KOs, and can be used to keep other characters out. I'm sure most of you have seen the hitbox on the thing. It does come with some punishable endlag though. Respect this move, and punish it accordingly.
Charizard CAN combo Olimar back. Mostly vertically. His Jab sets up for so much, and his range lets him catch Olimar in mid air. It's not free though, the Charizard player has to follow your DI, but if he does, prepare to be U-Air > U-Air > Up-B'd.
Charizard's got more than Star KO power too. This D-Tilt, F-Tilt, B-Air and F-Smash are all good at taking Olimar off the stage, and this is one of a few matchups where you do not want to be offstage with the disadvantage. Charizard can keep you down if he performs correctly. His Flamethrowing also keeps Olimar from recovering low if it's fresh because it can stuff Olimar's tether.
Getting grabbed sucks, and to make matters worse Charizard has a good grab range. Coupled with his speed, he can punish Olimar's whiffs fairly well, and his D-Throw is good at techchasing anyone. To make matters worse though, Olimar has one of the worst techrolls in the game, and if Charizard catches you techrolling behind him while you have high damage he gets a free F-Smash which means you lose a stock because that move his super powerful. U-Throw is also a killer so don't get caught at high damage.
Charizard is a survivor. He's heavy and he can glide. You can stuff his Glide Attack if he uses it, but in my experience it's not easy to do. You have to hit with literally the bottom half of the Pikmin. If you can stuff his glide, and keep him off for his two jumps so he's out of range with his Up-B, then you should be okay. The hard part is stuffing the glide really.
Now that that's out of the way, the way to counter Charizard is don't miss anything, and pester him with Pikmin Throw. If you put a Pikmin on Charizard's nose he actually has very few ways of getting it off. It's also not very hard to do this. This is damage for you. After you get your first real hit with anything, you want to immediately put Charizard above you somehow. Throws, U-Smash, U-Tilt, whatever. Like most characters, Charizard can't challenge Olimar's U-Air.
You're going to need to put on as much damage as you can because as I said before, Charizard can survive against Olimar. That's basically it.
Space your attacks.
Pester him.
Don't miss.
Stages... I like medium sized ones after having played the matchup a little more than the last time I talked about this matchup. Small stages aren't bad for Charizard because he takes up so much space, much like Bowser. Large stages let him live longer. They make Olimar live longer too usually, but Charizard is actually strong enough for him to kill on larger stages with far off blastzones. Charizard can also do his Fly > U-Air > U-Air > Up-B chase combo on Dreamland and still kill that way.
I actually prefer stages like PS2, Smashville, Battlefield. I don't even mind Final Destination in this match too much because it takes away the platforms Charizard could use to mix up his glide recovery with. Also Lylat Cruise again because those ledges are great for screwing over Charizard's recovery as a whole.
Warning: pure theorycrafting below
We kinda win neutral because Pikmin Toss, doubly so because Zard lacks moves that covers his entire body (besides Up B or something, but doing that in neutral...). He CAN ignore them but we got them "respect my space" moves (pivot f smash/grab, retreating bair/RAR fair to name a few) to make sure he doesn't charge in often. He's still fast, though, so make sure to not be to predictable with those keep out options and Pikmin Toss, or he'll get in and grab you.
That's bad, because Zard can tech chase pretty well and we have a fairly poopy tech roll. This means that if we get grabbed, we eating some damage and possibly get offstage against one of the best edgeguarders in the game. On the other hand, if we get a grab, he eats 60-70% or worse, and will have to recover against f smash and other nice things with that percent (if we didn't kill with a Purple Up Air mid juggle). We combo him harder by virtue of him being a fatty, but he can close out stocks early with a low percent edgeguard or a Sky Attack (Up Air(s) > Up B) star KO, so punishes are evenish, I guess?
It's one of those MUs where whoever gets grabbed dies, but we edge out neutral just because Zard can't get Pikmin off of him without committing. I'd say about 55-45 to 60-40 (at best) in our favor, but it's probably evenish. Maybe if someone played Zen we'd get a better idea...oh well 9.9
i think this mu is still even like it was in 3.0, simply because zard is a grappler that is very fast with long range, but slow moves with a ton of knockback. which means side b beats him when we get it on him, but he can beat us if he gets anywhere near us that we dont like. i think its even, purples arent a real necessity in this matchup which is uncommon.I've played a little in this mu so I can't say non of this is concrete. Also some of this may stem from my style of play rather then general Olimar stuff soooo yeah.
Zard is big. He's combo fodder. But his aerials can be annoying and beat out ours. Camp, get a grab, combo. Best case you land a side-b purple and grab him out of his tech.
On recovery i'm not to sure if his neutral aerial can go under the ledge enough to hit us before we sweetspot, but I wouldn't doubt it. Edgeguarding him can be pretty easy imo. He has three jumps but they're not huge and his up-b works in a way that he cant really sweetspot unless he goes (nearly) straight from under it and its really predictable
I played DLA in tournament just this Wednesday. I was impressed with myself, taking him down to last stock our first game and down to two stocks the second match.
DLA thinks that the matchup is heavily in Diddy's favor, but I disagree. I can't even call a matchup rating on it, sometimes it felt even, sometimes it felt like Olimar was better and sometimes it felt like Diddy was better. Really it came down to, how successful can I be at using his bananas against him. Thanks to coming from maining Y.Link in Melee and starting out with T.Link in PM, turns out I can do it fairly well.
I've really been thinking about this matchup a lot though, and I'd love to hear other people's input on it.
me said:the matchup is slightly in diddy's favor. thats only because olimar's glide toss and agt are both so bad. the key to playing against a good diddy is using his nanners against you and NOT GETTING OFF STAGE. seriously the whole matchup is basically who gets off stage first loses a stock. upsmash combos wont do much due to him being a psuedo-fast faller from what i've seen. so after 2 usmashes you should start going for uairs. anyway, stages are normal, yoshi story, battlefield etc. try to out move him and just stay mobile and watch out for bananas at the same time. purple side-b is a blessing in this matchup, it shuts down all of his shenanigans if timed right. 5.5-4.5 in his favor.
I agree with slight diddy favor. It's a really fun MU, imo.
Diddy has a lot of outs for olimars pikmin shenanigans. He has significantly better overall movement, and if he is on a stage with a good platform layout for him movement (battlefield is his best stage) he is really hard to catch and always threatens space with banana archs from any point on it. But both characters really suck at approaching each other, and hold center stage really well, and combo/edgeguard each other really really well.
I'm not super well versed in olimars side of the MU, but from diddy's side my goal and options in neutral are very clear: let him pluck so I can pull a banana out, then don't mess up and wait for him to do something I can either grab, side b, or throw a banana at. If he throws a pikmin I have a few options to deal with it. Jumping over it and risking losing stage control isn't worth the stray % because the punish game is already so severe, so I just eat it and kill it quickly. Bair can hit all of them out of the air (does 12%) but my favorite counter play is to jump facing away, z drop a banana which hits the pikmin off you, then pick one of 4 options depending on how I feel in the situation: if I'm close and I want to hit them and I'm not afraid of getting grabbed I'll do a falling bair. If im not comfortable where I am and I'm afraid he is going to jump up and fair me or grab my landing, I'll just agt real quickly, making space between us while still putting out a hitbox towards you (which I can covert into a grab if It hits or if shielded if I'm in range). It's the safer option but risks losing the banana, and particularly loses to sh pikmin waveland. The safest option when I just don't want to be at that spot and don't want to risk anything is to just waveland away, you give up some space but you keep the banana and you can potentially be in position to whiff punish if olimar jumped at me. If I want to power through a 2nd pikmin or read olimar trying to shield the bair or the agt, I'll do a falling side b and combo off of that with big damage.
Diddy's goal is to covert into grabs and just do falcon combos on olimar, upthrow upair fair is amazing vs olimar and puts him in a garbage position to recover from. Simple banana covertions all work, all nair combos work, simple middleweight combo trees. I NEVER want to jump in when olimar is in a position to pivot grab, it's just hell. Olimar wins at max distances where bananas are reactable, and close ranges where olimars faster tilts are more potent (and if diddy had a banana he can't quickly use his ground options). If I get grabbed I should die.
Diddy edge guards olimar by harassing olimar off stage with projectiles and just bair him out of up b, or hold ledge and do late/reverse upair to keep olimar off stage. Eventually you'll force Oli to go low, then you just hold ledge and punish accordingly, so olimar should try to go high and platform cancel, and make sure you sdi/di all moves properly so you have more chances for diddy to mess up.
Fsmash edge guards diddy nearly by itself. The only thing fsmash doesn't cover is high up-bs and perfect horizontal sweet spots, which are reactable or lose to bair from ledge, respectively. Diddy's recovery is long but easy to intercept if you learn how it works and react to his angle choices.
Important counter play/things to look for:
Watch out for the soul fist, sh popgun agt banana. It's diddy's best approach significantly, the peanut will arch over pikmin and if you shield the banana you're going to get grabbed most likely. It's really good but it's a bit of a hail mary, if diddy does it he risked a lot and really wanted to force an opening.
Sh side b waveland to pick up straw bananas. Keeping the banana is really really key. Get comfortable with having it in and and using it to whiff punish jump ins because diddy loses a lot of potential to hit you if you just hold onto it. Think of using a banana in situation where you would pivot grab, you're punishing missed moves and landing lags with it . Oli isn't a fast enough character to throw it off stage and punish diddy from running and pulling a new one, so use it, or at least let it sit behind/under you with your stage positioning. Learn how to comfortably do your aerials with it a banana, z drop right before and you can do all of your aerials just 2 frames later.
It's also important to learn how to comfortably fsmash with a banana in hand: just be holding an attack button and then hit the c stick. You can press a during any thing. Like a pluck or a side b, this is really strong when edge guarding diddy because you can just fsmash without losing the banana or letting it time out.
I think it's 60/40 diddy's favor, mostly because diddy has more of an edge in neutral when he has a banana, and olimar can't really rush diddy down and prevent him from pulling.
It's a really fun MU, if you have a good diddy main in your region try to grind it out. Diddy and olimar mains are so few and far between, if you know the MU you can catch someone else off guard Oos or something. It's also a really similar MU for diddy to other ones, but I don't think it plays out like any other MU for olimar. Maybe wolf, I think wolf and diddy have similar game plans vs olimar.
Diddy olimar... is the competitive experience of watching paint dry. I would actually say oli has a slightly easier time approaching, but why should he. Diddy will essentially always have a banana at will on any normal stage, and olimar will be living longer than average, so any punish means it's going to be devastating.
If diddy gets the life lead, prepare to see a lot of air camping tricks, and a ton of peanutnpopgun. (So same thing)
If olimar gets the life lead, he has no reason to get more aggressive until at least bud are on pikmin, as long as his item game is on point and he doesn't stay a sitting duck. Honestly the only reason I would even say diddy favor is #1 no one plays this matchup (like melee zelda vs ice climbers) and #2 diddy isn't dependent on rnjesus. Both require setup for their optimal punishes so that isn't really a hold back unless you are starting with two reds Two blues early percent -.-
I will say once ground control is given up as olimar, it is really hard to get it back, not because of the rate of fire on popgun, but because the options out of the situation are really limited, and diddy punishes linear approaches pretty hard. Could see the matchup go either way, cause sdi needs to be on point for olimar not to treat you like a mr. Sandbag on combos.
i think this is an amazing and even matchup. olimar's item game has to be on point but diddy has to be super careful of peel shenanigans.Oli poops on Diddy if your item game is on point. If you pick up the banana and just side-b camp, Diddy can't do anything to you.
I'd explain more, but this is literally the entire matchup lmao
lmaoWhat is this, Olimar with winning matchups?
There is no god
Pretty much on the same boat here. Nothing much else to add.Donkey Kong is either an even matchup or in Oli's favor. The punish game is really strong on both parties, Oli barely has to approach the entire time, and once he gets DK offstage the edgeguard is really easy. Nair works wonders against him too due to his size. However, due to his techroll and OoS options, DK can space out and pressure Olimar really well, and one hit can lead to massive damage.
IMO 55-45 Oli.
Sidenote: This is one of my favorite matchups in the game to play.
Donkey Kong is either an even matchup or in Oli's favor. The punish game is really strong on both parties, Oli barely has to approach the entire time, and once he gets DK offstage the edgeguard is really easy. Nair works wonders against him too due to his size. However, due to his techroll and OoS options, DK can space out and pressure Olimar really well, and one hit can lead to massive damage.
IMO 55-45 Oli.
Sidenote: This is one of my favorite matchups in the game to play.
this is a chart thats slightly edited that i originally made. my opinions changed quite a bit (above)Matchup from 's Perspective (+3 has Olimar winning)
+3:
+2:
+1:
0:
-1:
-2:
-3:
?:
What do you guys think? Anything wildly inaccurate? What about the unknown matchups?
Not my opinion. This is for updating the (outdated) community matchup chart.
TO be fair that's his situation in regards to most characters. Olimar is easily edgeguarded, that's his caveat. However ~80 of the game will be played on stage where Olimar has plenty of options to fight back with.As soon as oli is offstage Kirby can bair fair dair the **** out of him, so yea