Olimar Matchup Discussion

[PSI.kick]

Well, we now know the secret to this MU, get some pretty pink flowers.


This MU isn't that bad imo, but Olimar can be nasty. He can't grab release us, but he doesn't need it because of all his sick combos out of dthrow. Keep track of which pikmin he has/where they are in his line, and know what they are good at:
blues: bthrow kills you
purples: uthrow kills/usmash is insane, and pikmin toss is annoying
yellows: have a lot of priority and can get through most of our stuff
Whites: they will probably be thrown at you or grabbed with, get 'em off quick because they do a lot of damage
reds: good smashes and aerials, pkfire won't stop them

Don't get grabbed or you're in for some hurt (seriously, this is stressed in almost every mu, and this one is no less important)
Watch out for his combos and quick usmashes, Olimar can be quick and powerful, so don't underestimate him.
Get up in his face, Olimar is far from the best at super close range, he can space out smashes and stuff so it can be hard to get in there, but get up close and exploit his few counters which include usmash, fsmash, utilt (sometimes), grab, and jab (not likely jab, but it can be an unexpected thing.

Overall, just get a feel for how to play him, I think this Matchup is about even with maybe a slight advantage for either side depending on experience and playstyle.

So yeah, discuss.

 

[Neon Ness]

Well you want to give it some sort of direction instead of just "yeah discuss" so it starts off organized.

Maybe start off with what you think are some general weaknesses/strengths Ness and Olimar have against each other. And then that will spark responses from people who disagree (or even agree).

 

[Jiffyboob]

Olimar again?!?! We had a discussion like 3 months ago.

We need to talk about Falco honestly.

 

[Bartolon]

Noooo not again, miii wants falcooo

 

[Neon Ness]

C'mon, no more complaining.

The thread's already here and everything. We can start Falco next after this one's done though.

 

[Sky Pirate]

blues: bthrow kills you

Uthrow kills earlier.
Just DI up until you see the Uthrow animation because Uthrow takes longer to perform.

yellows: have a lot of priority and can get through most of our stuff

Lots of stun/range, but you could probably lump that together with priority using that "priority is an illusion" argument.

Whites: they will probably be thrown at you or grabbed with, get 'em off quick because they do a lot of damage

Most likely thrown. Look for these in a line.

Watch out for his combos and quick usmashes, Olimar can be quick and powerful, so don't underestimate him.

Watching for Fsmash/Fair/Uair/pivot grab when landing is just as important.

Get up in his face, Olimar is far from the best at super close range, he can space out smashes and stuff so it can be hard to get in there, but get up close and exploit his few counters which include usmash, fsmash, utilt (sometimes), grab, and jab (not likely jab, but it can be an unexpected thing.

Usmash OoS, Pivot grab

Pikmin can be easy set-ups for PK Fire.
Nair/Fair a lot. Mostly Nair.
Get Pikmin off before trying to PK Thunder. Obvious. ^^;
Try to kill returning purples when you can. Don't focus completely on it, though.
I think running up or landing and charging an Usmash works, too. Haven't played against a Ness in a while.

This is all probably old news since you guys are complaining so much. XD

 

[Bartolon]

"I think running up or landing and charging an Usmash works, too. Haven't played against a Ness in a while.
"

I laughed.

 

[DanGR]

That's a pretty bland summary of the different pikmin attributes. I hope you guys'll take the time to learn a lot more than that about them...

 

[Bartolon]

I got 2 year experience in this matchup =DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD.

Enough pep talk, lets get some arguments in, yay.

 

[Ayoub]

Lol, this matchup isnt hard at all for Olimar.

I 2nd olimar, and I'm known as a very good Olimar. Olimars pivot grab outspaces and outranges everything Ness has. Nair isn't that usefull in this matchup since it's only usefull as an OoS move, why would I hit on your sheild in the first place? I outcamp you by far, PK fire isn't that usefull aswell so don't bring that up. Ness beats Oli in the air I must agree, but Ness can't bring oli in the air due to not being able to get close easily, unlike someone like Marth.

We **** you offstage, sorry. We just faur you or gimp your 2nd jump with a purple pikmin and then just spam pikmins so your PKT won't even help you, and by the time you hit them off we can edgehog you easily, Ness' recovery sucks. Groundgame = like 100-0 our favour. SO, if Olimar just stays on the ground and doesn't challenge Ness for an aerial better, this Matchup is 60-40 Oli's favour. Olimar kills ness way earlier then Ness kills Olimar, since you can't edgeguard for shít either without having the risk to get gimped yourself. I'm sorry, but Ness is terrible in this MU. (=

 

[Eagleye893]

Not hard for Oli? okay... lolxD

Okay, it may not be a breeze for ness, but it sure as heck isn't near DDD or Falco status.

one quote I completely disagree with:
"you can't edgeguard for ****"

Well obviously something is wrong... Here's what we got:
PKT (very easy to get someone with... you'd think it isn't, but there is a method behind the madness which ensures one hit... keep the PKT more vertical and then go under the other character. Gotta keep the height near the same or else you lose it. The tailwhip being in front of the ledge is key, and if not loop back to hit... distance away depends on character opponent and approaching stage means move more inward, but not too far...)
PKFire (I myself am VERY consistent in getting it to just go over the ledge and move further downward at an angle... SH PKfire is only advised if the opponent is a fair distance away and if you know the distance needed to achieve what i just said (making it just go over the ledge and offstage)... grounded is more for if they're already on the ledge, and even then it's less useful than aerial.)
Jump off and Nair (again, depends on the situation... it works a lot though... the key is knowing when to FF the nair... if you don't know, you're dead.)
PSImag (lucas and ness.... few other characters will take note of the wind effects, so very little use)
DTILT!!!! (okay, if they are on the ledge already and you are near, the only character(s) who can stop us from spamming dtilt and getting insane stuff on them is(are) marth(and MK). Let's say they roll up... You take note of the animation, super punish. Jump? dtilt catches nearly every time. Getup? lol. Attack? We expect and shield if they don't drop or do the others... in fact, you can shield nearly every time, because you can jump OoS and followup with Bair/Nair. Drop then use something? A couple of characters will be hit before they can do something... otherwise, shield like normal. Basically, DTILT till they have lost their time for invincibility animation, Shield, Follow.)
Fsmash (for the characters with unlucky recoveries... otherwise, little help.)
Dsmash/Usmash (while opponent is on the ledge, this is deadly... you have to time it just right or else you lose something. With dsmash, you can hit them and potentially cause them to hit the wall/underside of ledge and go at a somewhat bad angle (you need to be nearer the ledge, but it can still work at a correct distance). Otherwise, risky. Usmash is more for the hanging yoyo type deal... even only slightly. Gets people hanging, catches rollers, catches jumpers, .... getup attackers get you, but oh well.... You can use it if you want... I don't like the yoyos much for edgeguarding.)
PKFlash (only perfect timing... mostly, it won't help)

Yeah....That's general though. Specific involving Oli:
PKFire bolt gets the chain to break (I'm like 80% sure, someone check) IF you use aerial PKfire the right way.
PKT doesn't really break the chain... I think at least... but you can still get extra damage...
dtilt is always good for edgeguarding... and even onstage.
Fall-off FF nair breaks the chain and allows for followups to ensure the Oli can't get to stage. An olimar won't hang around for long, but if you don't hit (as ness) you can always DJ up with an airdodge or maybe another nair and be safe.
^extend Falloff FF nair, you can get offstage a little earlier (mind the up...) and Nair while going upward... Maybe even Fair while going upward for even more safety... but it mixes stuff up and gives you some options.

Some say us being offstage is a bad idea... that's only if we make a huge mistake... assuming that ness will always lose offstage is absurd, and (if I wasn't constrained to wifi) I would prove it in an instant. In fact, I think most ness mains here have extremely low amounts of difficulty getting back to the stage, even in the most awkward situations. If a couple of us make mistakes sometimes, that doesn't mean it's part of the MU to assume ness can get destroyed offstage easily.

apart from offstage game...
Oli's grab is obnoxious... DON'T LAND PREDICTABLY BY ANY MEANS!!! That is where Oli has potential to destroy everyone. Even if you have an aerial (which is still a bad idea, because you get landing lag), landing in a fashion that your opponent can pick up on is a BAAAAAD idea.
Try PKjump here... Aim to get behind Oli if anything. You don't want the pivot grab, but the PKjump makes it more likely to get behind, cover yourself, and keep Oli faced the wrong way... PKjump MAY NOT be a good idea... I have yet to see for sure.
Dtilt is not extremely good here... But I use it anyways. xD
To punish missed grabs, FH PKfire is good. This applies to grabs that you can see coming as well. The problem with this is that Oli won't pwned too easily from this, seeing as his grabs are fast and accurate when used well.
^Try running back and using grounded PKfire (reverse, but I'd assume that by now) at him. That's more for general concept.... You want to keep just enough distance to assure you won't get punished by random things.
Aerial usage Priority:
Nair
Uair
Dair/Bair
Fair

Fair is a good aerial, but it's slight longer frame-age makes it less viable IMO, also electric.....
Dair doesn't have the electric element to it, so I boosted it slightly. You have to know when to use it though. (I've been using FH Nair>Dair lately... so fun)
Bair would be great, but the electric aspect makes it go down slightly.
Uair is quick and hits far... also has little landing lag... but the frame-age is large... I put it this high, because I always use it as a landing thing.... or just in the air
Nair is obviously top (quick, no element, blah)

I'll think of more...

I say verging on 60:40 Oli, but still should be 55:45 Oli..
Either way, only slight advantage Oli, and here's why:
OLI:
Grab release stuff is annoying, but not as much as other characters.
Grabs in general ARE annoying, but since ness mains focus on not getting grabbed, this aspect is dragged down a bit (not entirely, 'cause I still get grabbed by Oli often).
Usmash Kills early (some of the pikmin can potentially be canceled by Nair, but need to re-check this... It didn't seem true).
PKfire is annoyed by red pikmin.
Fair, bair, PKT, PKT2, and PKflash (?) are annoyed by yellow pikmin.
Ness' Dair having slow startup means you are able to whistle away knockback.
*** I know there's more...
NESS:
More potential to edgeguard than originally thought (I <3 dtilt)
PKfire allows approach... definitely... Like no joke.
Nair is great for getting off pikmin and overall just keeping from getting rocked. (quick, priority helps, etc.)
Uair landing lag helps stuff slightly (I only use it behind my opponent... xD)
-Fair isn't great here....
Bair is okay (keeps kill potential and can knock off pikmin in an okay fashion, but oh well... minor setback)
*** I'll probably add more... I know there's some, but I've gotta focus on other stuff.

 

[Sky Pirate]

That's nice trolling there, Skank.

 

[Bartolon]

Bad trolling if u ask me lol.

 

[Sky Pirate]

He was a bit obvious when he said "I'm known as a very good Olimar", wasn't he? :3

 

[Bartolon]

Yup, he's a really good pit though =)

While we're talking lets get a bit more info on the pikmin:

blues: Throws can kill, farthest range,2nd best pikmin (in KO power),
When olimar has this one he mostly is trying to get a grab in, or a fsmash/usmash

purples: Grab range is.. bad, KO power is amazing, good Oos option, Can throw them for space and to take our 2nd jump away offstage.
Watch out at high percents, and always watch his pikmin line for when you are on high percents and offstage. (and just in general ;P)

yellows: Get through electricity (so he can throw this when we PKT, this means watch out offstage), pretty good priority, gives a stun when you get hit.
Mostly for throwing, sometimes smashes and grabs ofc.

Whites: They won't grab you with this one, trust me,They will throw it offstage or at you for a better pikmin line.
Less useful in this matchup because of ness his nair.

reds: 3rd best at KO power iirc, don't die cuz of fire, have also a pretty nice grab range.
Smashes mostly cuz of it's power, throws for ness his pk fire, and grab ofc pretty self explanatory.

 

[PSI.kick]

I thought that reds were better at smashes, blues always seem just to do ok, not great. I almost always kill with a red usmash over 80% or so unless good DI. Also, reds are the best for aerials, they have good KO potential with fair, so watch out for that (doesn't happen often but usually will be thrown in as a mixup)

Also, Oli doesn't have any grab release crap on ness, it's all just combos that he has on everyone else. The most common ones are:
dthrow>fsmash (at lower percents)
dthrow>dashed usmash (then sometimes)>uair
d/uthrow>tether depending on how you DI.
dthrow>purple toss (more likely fsmash though)
(clover, feel free to mention some more, those are just the ones i use the most lol)
Honestly, I have the hardest time performing dthrow combos when people DI away, oli has to dash after you and he cant hit you with fsmash or usmash until he gets to you (by that time you should have been able to get away or whatever)
So basically, try to DI away when he dthrows you at mid percents (at higher, if he grabs you with a purple or blue you need to DI up if he bthrows, and left/right if he uthrows), don't di towards him after the dthrow >.< this just makes him get usmash combo way easier.
Watch out for the occasional grounded tether, it will happen if you start getting predictable with your jumps/aerials. At a 45 degree angle, odds are he'll try to upB you, so be prepared with the air dodge.

With recovery, simple, just be sure to nair before you pkt (dj before you nair of course if you have it). If you are close enough to dj on stage or to the ledge, fair them to GTFO, although their fsmash ledgeguarding can be annoying. If they space it just right then there will be pikmin raining down on you and you may need to pkt, just get away from the edge a bit first. He will probably try to edgehog you, so get pkt off in a way that you can make it back to the stage and not have to rely on the edge to save you whenever possible.

Watch out for purples O_o seriously they are obese fat. Keep track of their pikmin line almost better than they do themselves, if they have a purple in line, keep track of it! if they have a blue next in line at high percents, don't get grabbed. Usually yellows will be thrown or used as an aerial, and at non-killing percents they may go for the grab with them. Whites, keep track of where they are and if they throw them at you get them off quickly with nair<(the all powerful move). PURPLES!!! keep track of them, they'll screw you over. Don't let yourself be surprised by an OoN (out of nowhere) purple usmash! you will die... Fat men ftl in our case, i absolutely love them *ahem* when i'm playing olimar that is...
>DON'T GET GRABBED< seriously, this is probably the biggest thing people need to do as any character against oli.

Stages
Don't go to: Halberd, YI (obviously...), BF (imo, only pick if you really like it though...)

Semi-bad/ok/whatever: Lylat (tilts, grabs aren't affected, meh), SV (ish... more even than anything), CS (a pretty good one for oli, its meh), PS1, Everything else is whatever.

Good stuff: Brinstar, and whatever else

For all Ness' stuff on these go to the stage discussion thread

Halberd:
It has a low ceiling which can lead into really early usmash and uthrow kills, the platform makes that even earlier. Olimar can usmash through the platform and hit us, except for purples (this works on both sections of the stage). There's a lot more stuff about this stage that Oli likes, it's more of a feel though. Personally, this is my favorite starter as olimar.

Battlefield:
Same as halberd with the platform stuff, usmash gets you. Also he can juggle you a bunch here, but we can also juggle him. Honestly, I wouldn't pick this to fight oli on, but it's not too bad.

Lylat:
I'm not really a fan of this stage as ness, but it isn't too bad. Olimar's fsmash and grab are **** on tilting stages, fsmash on high ground and grabs from low ground. Grabs will catch you when you wouldn't think they'd catch you, especially when they pivot grab. Fsmash will block you from approaching, and it's just annoying when used from high ground.
This stage can go both ways, just whether you like it or not.

Castle Siege:
2nd section is probably the best for him, it's pretty good for his camping, .
On the third section his pikmin pluck takes a LOT longer to perform, punish him hard for this, it sucks. Again with the tilting stage (ish), so watch out for that. Otherwise, this stage is just up to you whether you like it or not.

Brinstar: mmmmm, I don't feel like writing this though, too tired. All i'm gonna say is that this is bad for olimar, as he isn't very good in the air. Pop him up and keep him there.
I'll leave it to people who like this stage better than me (i love it).

PS1: meh
FD: meh
everything else: meh