Data Olimar Gameplay Changes from 3DS/Wii U to Ultimate

Blue Banana

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#1
Changes to Pikmin & Olimar from for 3DS/Wii U to Ultimate
(Google Document version)
(For a spreadsheet-style comparison in changes, go here)


Grab and Throw Changes
Olimar’s grabs and throws have received a significant rework that is more noticeable and complex than the other changes, which is why they have a separate section.
  • Grab
    • Grab now uses all Pikmin in line
    • Grab range is now dependent on 1) how many Pikmin are in line; 2) the color of the leading Pikmin in line
      • Refer to this tweet for an example and the video it is referenced from.
      • Note that only the leading Pikmin has an active hitbox; any extra Pikmin used for the grab don't have one.
    • The dead zone in Olimar's grabs seems to be no longer there.
    • Active frames for all grabs starts slightly later but lasts slightly longer, 10-19 → 12-23
      • The # of Pikmin used for the grab doesn’t affect the duration of the active frames
    • Grab endlag is now affected by the # of Pikmin used
Grab FAF Standing Dash Pivot
1 Pikmin 42 50 45
2 Pikmin 48 58 52
3 Pikmin 57-58 67-68 61-62
Wii U 50 55 36

  • Pummel
    • Pummel’s damage is consistent, as Olimar himself is pummeling rather than letting the Pikmin do it
    • Pummel damage reduced: 2%/4% → 1%
    • Pummel FAF: 7
  • All Throws
    • Olimar now has invincibility on his throws
    • Throws now have another multiplier that is applied on top of the color-specific multiplier. This multiplier is determined by the number of Pikmin that was used for the grab.
      • 1 Pikmin = 1.0, 2 Pikmin = 1.1, 3 Pikmin = 1.2
      • The colors of the non-leading Pikmin do not affect this multiplier
      • The color-specific throw multiplier is still decided by the color of the leading Pikmin
      • The multiplier applies to both hits of both Dthrow and Uthrow
      • The first hit of Dthrow is affected by the color-specific attack multiplier
      • If Olimar uses Uthrow lead by a blue or red pikmin, there is another multiplier that is applied to the throw damage, x1.05 or x0.95 respectively
      • Formula for total damage (disregarding 1v1 and fresh-move multipliers):
        • D = n(ha + ktx), where:
          • h is the base damage of the first hit (if any)
          • k is the base damage of the throw
          • a is the attack multiplier (applies to Dthrow only)
          • t is the throw multiplier
          • x is either 1.05 or 0.95 if the throw is Uthrow w/ blue or red leading respectively, 1 otherwise
          • n is the multiplier based on the # of pikmin
      • More Pikmin results in both stronger knockback and earlier KO %s, albeit marginally
  • Up Throw
    • Now does 1 weak hit before the throw, similar to Dthrow.
      • The damage is now 1% (hit) + 7% (throw) = 8%, still the same as Wii U
    • Stronger KO option; 1 blue pikmin KOs Mario at 133% with DI on Final Destination
    • New animation: All Pikmin throw the opponent upwards then follow it up with a headbutt
  • Down Throw
    • Sends opponent further away and at a more horizontal angle than in Wii U
      • Follow-ups are still possible but probably more dependent on color, character, and DI
    • Reduced endlag, FAF: 46 → 42
    • New animation: All Pikmin jump into the air with the opponent then slam them into the ground, very similar to Wii U’s Uthrow
  • Forward Throw
    • Stronger KO option; 1 blue pikmin KOs Mario at 138% with DI at the ledge of Final Destination
    • New animation: All Pikmin jump into the air with the opponent then throw them forward into the ground
  • Back Throw
    • Stronger KO option though less so than the other two; 1 blue KOs Mario at 150% w/ DI at the ledge of Final Destination

Other Changes
  • Pikmin Attributes and Mechanics
    • Attack multipliers for some colors have been increased from Wii U.
      • Red attack multiplier: 1.2 → 1.4
      • Purple attack multiplier: 1.4 → 1.6
      • All other colors unchanged
    • Blue throw multiplier increased: 1.6 → 1.7
      • All other colors unchanged
    • Yellow’s increased hitbox size is even larger: 25% more volume → 50%
    • Pikmin HP universally reduced
      • Red, Yellow: 8 → 6
      • Blue: 11 → 8
      • White: 7 → 5
      • Purple: 13 → 11
    • Maximum walk speed for reds, yellows, blues increased: 3 → 3.2
      • White/purple speed the same at 4/1.7
    • The flowers on Pikmin’s heads now make them move faster, like in their home series. Yes, they now actually do something.
      • Leaves mature into buds after 20 seconds and fully bloom into flowers after another 20 seconds, a total of 40 seconds.
    • Pikmin can still pick up and hold items.
      • If a Pikmin touches Diddy’s banana peel, it will disappear instead of picking it up.
      • Pikmin can pick up Snake-nades, which will still detonate.
    • Pikmin AI seem to still act strangely in certain situations.
  • Moveset Changes
    • All aerials
      • All aerials except Nair have transcendent priority.
        • However, the Pikmin used for the aerial can be killed before and after the active hitboxes occur
      • Universal landing lag reduction
        • Nair: 15 → 13
        • Fair: 15 → 9 (video, 0:08)
        • Bair: 15 → 9 (video, 2:31)
        • Uair: 30 → 18 (video, 1:02)
        • Dair: 30 → 18
    • All Smashes
      • Pikmin used for smashes will bounce off shields
      • Smash attacks are still treated as projectiles; they can still be snuffed out by any non-projectile attack and reflected
      • Desync smashes seem to be still possible (2:26)
    • Up Smash
      • Greatly reduced endlag, FAF: 56 → 37 (video, 1:17)
    • Pikmin Throw (sideB)
      • Damage per tick for all non-purple colors increased
        • RYB: 1.1 → 2
        • White: 3.7 → 4.7
      • Pikmin now bounce off shields
      • Throwing no Pikmin has greater endlag than throwing one, FAF 36
        • Unknown if this was present in Wii U
      • Opponents with a Pikmin latched onto them now have a visibly distressed look on their faces
    • Pikmin Order (downB)
      • Can whistle back Pikmin much faster than in Wii U, on frame 6
      • Super armor interval changed: 6-12 → 2-7
      • Reduced endlag, FAF: 21 → 18 (beginning of match of these three videos)
    • Jab
      • Reduced endlag on Jab 1, FAF: 30 → 20 (video, 0:12)
    • Up Tilt
      • Reduced endlag, FAF: 44 → 39
      • Damage has been changed for some hits of Utilt (video, 0:16)
        • Hit 3: 0.6 → 0.7
        • Hit 4: 0.6 → 0.4
        • Hit 5: 0.6 → 0.8
      • This results in: 0.6 + 0.6 + 0.7 + 0.4 + 0.8 + 4 = 7.1% base damage total, up from 0.6 * 5 + 4 = 7% in Wii U
    • Dash Attack
      • Unchanged, but it’s one of the few attacks capable of crossing up shields
        • Could be potentially the only attack that can do this
    • Forward Smash
      • Pikmin still have to wait out their own FAF (i.e. they have to get up) before they are able to be used for another attack
    • Down Smash
      • New animation: The Pikmin now do a shove a la Wario instead of a headbutt, and Olimar now jumps in the air before ordering the attack
      • Can still hit twice with both Pikmin
    • Down Air
      • Spikes only occur on aerial opponents (unchanged from Wii U)
    • Pikmin Pluck (neutralB)
      • Essentially unchanged
        • Only 3 Pikmin are still allowed on the field
        • Color cycle is the same (RedYellowBlueWhitePurpleRed)
          • Olimar will always start with red, yellow, and blue at the beginning of each game
        • Dashing can still be cancelled by pluck, but this is not as useful as it was in Wii U since you can cancel dash manually anyway
    • Winged Pikmin (upB)
      • UpB can only be cancelled early via aerials; it cannot be cancelled by airdodge
      • Duration ~140 frames (video, 0:25)
  • Kirby Copy Ability
    • "Kirby's Olimar ability is stronger but has more afterlag, I had time to get behind him and down-smash." - @mai_8zK
  • Universal Changes to Character Attributes
    • Jumpsquat frames lowered: 5 → 3
    • Run speed increased: 1.47 → 1.617
    • Walk speed increased: 0.9 → 0.945
    • Air speed increased: 0.82 → 0.861
    • Ultimate Initial dash speed: 1.606 (was 1.6 in Wii U)
  • Miscellaneous
    • When performing aerials, the Pikmin’s body expands and leaves a colored trail (except Dair), probably indicating the active frames for the attack.
    • In fact, many attacks like Pikmin Throw and Usmash leave a colored trail.
    • In certain situations, Olimar’s helmet will crack when he gets hit; his eyes will always bug out when he gets hit.
    • Olimar has a new ledge hanging animation.
    • Some of Olimar’s victory screens have been updated with new animations and more Pikmin sounds.


Unconfirmed Changes
  • Moveset Changes
    • Pikmin Throw (sideB)
      • Yellow’s arc trajectory has been changed such that it is easier for it to latch onto opponents

What to Test
  • Pikmin Mechanics
    • Flower mechanics
      • Do flowers make Pikmin return to Olimar’s line faster when he uses whistle?
      • Do flowers alter frame data on attacks and grabs?
    • Any significant changes to AI (e.g. Pikmin falling out of line while airborne or near a ledge)?
      • Do Pikmin still get stuck returning to Olimar if they run into a lingering hitbox on the ground (R.O.B.’s Gyro, Unira item)?
    • Are desyncs still a thing?
      • If yes, can they be reliably performed?
    • Is Stickmin still possible?
    • How do Pikmin out of line interact w/ certain items, which are:
      • Food
      • Mr. Saturn
      • Banana Peels
      • The Links’ bombs
      • Peach and Daisy’s turnips
      • Sheik’s unactivated Burst Grenade
      • Wario’s Bike
      • Snake-nades
      • R.O.B.’s Gyro
      • Villager’s pieces of lumber from Timber
      • Mega Man’s Metal Blade
      • PAC-MAN’s Bonus Fruit
      • Robin’s discarded Levin Sword and tomes
      • Bowser Jr.’s Mechakoopas
      • King K. Rool’s crown
      • If the Pikmin picks up an item, does the item belong to Olimar or its original owner (important for items w/ lingering hitboxes)?
    • How do smashes and sideB interact w/ other moves that interact w/ projectiles, which include:
      • The Links’ neutral stance
      • Kirby’s Inhale (nB)
      • Wario’s Chomp (nB)
      • Villager’s Pocket (nB)
      • Rosalina’s Gravitational Pull (downB)
      • Isabelle’s Pocket (nB)
      • All reflectors including but not limited to:
        • Mario’s Cape (sideB), Fox’s Reflector (downB), Ness’s bat (Fsmash), Zelda’s Nayru’s Love (nB), Doc’s Super Sheet (sideB), Falco’s Reflector (downB), Mewtwo’s Confusion (sideB), Mr. Game and Watch’s Oil Panic (downB), (Dark) Pit’s Guardian Orbitars (downB), Lucas’s stick (Fsmash), Dedede’s Inhale (nB), R.O.B.’s Arm Rotor (sideB), Wolf’s Reflector (downB), and whatever the Mii Fighters have
      • Do Villager and Isabelle’s Pocket transform the pocketed Pikmin into the Kirby Copy Ability version of Pikmin like in Wii U?
    • How does non-purple sideB interact with counters, which include:
      • Peach and Daisy’s Toad
      • Lucario’s Double Team
      • Little Mac’s Slip Counter
      • Greninja’s Substitute
      • Whatever the Mii Fighters have
      • Shulk’s Vision
      • Bayonetta’s Witch Time
      • Incineroar’s Revenge
      • Nearly every Fire Emblem’s Counter (Surge)
    • Palutena’s downB (Counter/Reflect Barrier) and King K. Rool’s Gut Check both act as a counter and reflector. How do smashes and sideB interact with them?
    • How do smashes and sideB interact w/ other projectiles (important ones to test are Fox and Falco’s Blasters (nB) and R.O.B.’s Robo Beam (nB))?
    • What specific attacks in Ultimate are blue Pikmin immune to? (e.g. Greninja’s Water Shuriken, Squirtle’s uncharged Water Gun, Corbin’s Counter Surge, etc.)
  • Moveset Changes
    • Grab
      • Is there a period of time where the Pikmin “reels” in the opponent before doing a pummel or throw?
    • All Throws
      • Does the knockback for Fthrow, Bthrow, and Uthrow increase if more than 1 Pikmin is used?
      • If the opponent gets hit by another attack while the throw occurs, does the throw animation still occur? Does the opponent still take the damage and knockback from it?
      • If Olimar gets hit out of his throw animation, does the Pikmin throw animation still occur? Does the opponent still take damage and knockback from it?
    • Fsmash
      • Does the Pikmin have a faster FAF?
        • Can the Pikmin be whistled to come back to Olimar before it hits its FAF?
    • Pikmin Throw (sideB)
      • Any changes to how long the Pikmin is attached to the opponent?
      • Any way to determine what body part of the opponent the Pikmin will attach to?
    • Winged Pikmin (upB)
      • Any changes to the amount of “fuel” or how fast the “fuel” charges?
      • Is upB’s total distance still influenced by the colors of the Pikmin that Olimar is holding?
        • In Wii U, purples decrease the potential total distance more than reds, yellows, and blues do, which decrease the distance more than whites do.
    • Pikmin Order (downB)
      • Has whistle changed such that it will always call Pikmin back to Olimar, unlike Wii U?

Update History
  • Patch 1.2.0 (12/13/2018) - No gameplay changes based on testing
  • Patch 1.1.0 - Initial day 1 release build, happy smashing!

Credits
 
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Jeck

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#4
Good start, good start. Thank you Blue Banana Blue Banana for getting it rolling, I suspect there will be a lot of incoming Olimars. I keep hearing he's got a lot of his Brawl tricks back. Has anyone confirmed i-frames on his whistle yet? Also, there still isn't much footage but are his tosses significantly changeed?
 

Blue Banana

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#5
Has anyone confirmed i-frames on his whistle yet? Also, there still isn't much footage but are his tosses significantly changeed?
If you’re talking about super armor on whistle, then yes, he still has it. Whistle never granted invincibility frames.
I don’t know what you’re referring to by “tosses”. If you’re talking about his throws, Fthrow, Bthrow, and Dthrow seemingly send the opponent at a more horizontal level. If you’re talking about Pikmin Throw, then, aside from damage values, no.
Please check the Google Document before asking any questions.
 

Blue Banana

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#6
Added more info to OP, including:
- Pikmin used for aerials can be killed before/after they're active
- Throws now have a secondary multiplier determined by # of Pikmin
- Differing amounts of endlag for grabs determined by # of Pikmin (needs more research)
- Super armor occuring earlier on whistle
- Landing lag reduction for aerials
- Increase in multipliers for specific colors
- Base damage for non-purple sideB
- Jab 1 can be acted out of earlier
 
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Blue Banana

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#7
The game's starting to be officially released worldwide, so I've updated OP so that it's the same write-up as the one in my document.
 
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#8
Pikmin toss still causes counters to activate.

Up smash can indeed combo at very early percents(on some characters)

Pikmin still interrupt projectiles and certain proximity activated attacks. You can still use Pikmin to block arrows, boomerangs, bombs, samus’s Fully charged(or least charged) shot.

The moves the Pikmin can interrupt when tossed or still apart from Olimar are things like upperdash arm and raptor boost, Ike’s side b. Things that normally end there animation on a character tend to accept Pikmin as targets.

The Pikmin seem to get back in line faster for smashes. Up smash never seems to run out so long as you have 2 Pikmin or more. You can constantly up smash. Not sure it works that way for f smash.

Dtilt does combo, but not nearly as reliably. Seems like 2 tilts is safe for leading into other attacks, but 3 tilts or more doesn’t set up for much of anything. They just jump out or nair or something.

Pikmin can Desync. Reliably? Dunno.
 

MERPIS

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#11
So if his aerials are disjoints now, then why do projectiles like mario's fireball go through the pikmin while the aerial is active where with a normal disjoint they would cancel out?
 

Blue Banana

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#12
So if his aerials are disjoints now, then why do projectiles like mario's fireball go through the pikmin while the aerial is active where with a normal disjoint they would cancel out?
Hey, so me and a couple of other users from the Olimar discord tested this out and came to the conclusion that Olimar's aerials are actually transcendent. The Google document is already updated with this info, and I'll update the OP soon.
 

MERPIS

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#13
Hey, so me and a couple of other users from the Olimar discord tested this out and came to the conclusion that Olimar's aerials are actually transcendent. The Google document is already updated with this info, and I'll update the OP soon.
Is that a good thing? If thats true then that means the pikmin will actually trade hitboxes with other moves
 

Blue Banana

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#14
Is that a good thing? If thats true then that means the pikmin will actually trade hitboxes with other moves
If a hitbox is transcendent, then it can't clash or cancel out other hitboxes but can't be cancelled out by them either.
What this means for Olimar's aerials is that:
- Olimar will either beat or trade with other attacks, but it depends on if his aerial can touch his opponent's hurtbox, if the attack's hitboxes overlap with the user's hurtboxes, and/or if the opponent's attack touches Olimar's hurtbox.
- He can't cancel out projectiles.
 
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MERPIS

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#15
If a hitbox is transcendent, then it can't clash or cancel out other hitboxes but can't be cancelled out by them either.
What this means for Olimar's aerials is that:
- Olimar will either beat or trade with other attacks, but it depends on if his aerial can touch his opponent's hurtbox, if the attack's hitboxes overlap with the user's hurtboxes, and/or if the opponent's attack touches Olimar's hurtbox.
- He can't cancel out projectiles.
Ok so basically I'm monky
He now has sword aerials like in brawl. Which is stupidly good, but is this better or worse than having real disjoints? I wanna say better since people were complaining about MK not having transcendent priority on his moves in smash 4 and for some reason people missed it but personally I wouldn't know.
 
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Blue Banana

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#16
Ok so basically I'm monky
He now has sword aerials like in brawl. Which is stupidly good, but is this better or worse than having real disjoints? I wanna say better since people were complaining about MK not having transcendent priority on his moves in smash 4 and for some reason people missed it but personally I wouldn't know.
Having transcendent priority on aerials is slightly worse than having disjointed aerials since you can't cancel out weaker projectiles, but that is what Pikmin Throw and Forward Smash are there for.
 
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