Blue Banana
Smash Journeyman
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- Oct 11, 2014
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Changes to Pikmin & Olimar from for 3DS/Wii U to Ultimate
(Google Document version)
(For a spreadsheet-style comparison in changes, go here)
(Google Document version)
(For a spreadsheet-style comparison in changes, go here)
Grab and Throw Changes
Olimar’s grabs and throws have received a significant rework that is more noticeable and complex than the other changes, which is why they have a separate section.
- Grab
- Grab now uses all Pikmin in line
- Grab range is now dependent on 1) how many Pikmin are in line; 2) the color of the leading Pikmin in line
- Refer to this tweet for an example and the video it is referenced from.
- Note that only the leading Pikmin has an active hitbox; any extra Pikmin used for the grab don't have one.
- The dead zone in Olimar's grabs seems to be no longer there.
- Active frames for all grabs starts slightly later but lasts slightly longer, 10-19 → 12-23
- The # of Pikmin used for the grab doesn’t affect the duration of the active frames
- Grab endlag is now affected by the # of Pikmin used
1 Pikmin| 42 | 50 | 45
2 Pikmin| 48 | 58 | 52
3 Pikmin| 57-58 | 67-68 | 61-62
Wii U|50|55|36
- Pummel
- Pummel’s damage is consistent, as Olimar himself is pummeling rather than letting the Pikmin do it
- Pummel damage reduced: 2%/4% → 1%
- Pummel FAF: 7
- All Throws
- Olimar now has invincibility on his throws
- Throws now have another multiplier that is applied on top of the color-specific multiplier. This multiplier is determined by the number of Pikmin that was used for the grab.
- 1 Pikmin = 1.0, 2 Pikmin = 1.1, 3 Pikmin = 1.2
- The colors of the non-leading Pikmin do not affect this multiplier
- The color-specific throw multiplier is still decided by the color of the leading Pikmin
- The multiplier applies to both hits of both Dthrow and Uthrow
- The first hit of Dthrow is affected by the color-specific attack multiplier
- If Olimar uses Uthrow lead by a blue or red pikmin, there is another multiplier that is applied to the throw damage, x1.05 or x0.95 respectively
- Formula for total damage (disregarding 1v1 and fresh-move multipliers):
- D = n(ha + ktx), where:
- h is the base damage of the first hit (if any)
- k is the base damage of the throw
- a is the attack multiplier (applies to Dthrow only)
- t is the throw multiplier
- x is either 1.05 or 0.95 if the throw is Uthrow w/ blue or red leading respectively, 1 otherwise
- n is the multiplier based on the # of pikmin
- D = n(ha + ktx), where:
- More Pikmin results in both stronger knockback and earlier KO %s, albeit marginally
- Up Throw
- Now does 1 weak hit before the throw, similar to Dthrow.
- The damage is now 1% (hit) + 7% (throw) = 8%, still the same as Wii U
- Stronger KO option; 1 blue pikmin KOs Mario at 133% with DI on Final Destination
- New animation: All Pikmin throw the opponent upwards then follow it up with a headbutt
- Now does 1 weak hit before the throw, similar to Dthrow.
- Down Throw
- Sends opponent further away and at a more horizontal angle than in Wii U
- Follow-ups are still possible but probably more dependent on color, character, and DI
- Reduced endlag, FAF: 46 → 42
- New animation: All Pikmin jump into the air with the opponent then slam them into the ground, very similar to Wii U’s Uthrow
- Sends opponent further away and at a more horizontal angle than in Wii U
- Forward Throw
- Stronger KO option; 1 blue pikmin KOs Mario at 138% with DI at the ledge of Final Destination
- New animation: All Pikmin jump into the air with the opponent then throw them forward into the ground
- Back Throw
- Stronger KO option though less so than the other two; 1 blue KOs Mario at 150% w/ DI at the ledge of Final Destination
Other Changes
- Pikmin Attributes and Mechanics
- Attack multipliers for some colors have been increased from Wii U.
- Red attack multiplier: 1.2 → 1.4
- Purple attack multiplier: 1.4 → 1.6
- All other colors unchanged
- Blue throw multiplier increased: 1.6 → 1.7
- All other colors unchanged
- Yellow’s increased hitbox size is even larger: 25% more volume → 50%
- Pikmin HP universally reduced
- Red, Yellow: 8 → 6
- Blue: 11 → 8
- White: 7 → 5
- Purple: 13 → 11
- Maximum walk speed for reds, yellows, blues increased: 3 → 3.2
- White/purple speed the same at 4/1.7
- The flowers on Pikmin’s heads now make them move faster, like in their home series. Yes, they now actually do something.
- Leaves mature into buds after 20 seconds and fully bloom into flowers after another 20 seconds, a total of 40 seconds.
- Pikmin can still pick up and hold items.
- If a Pikmin touches Diddy’s banana peel, it will disappear instead of picking it up.
- Pikmin can pick up Snake-nades, which will still detonate.
- Pikmin AI seem to still act strangely in certain situations.
- Treehouse footage, at 35:10. Watch where the red and purple Pikmin go when they try to go back to Olimar.
- Attack multipliers for some colors have been increased from Wii U.
- Moveset Changes
- All aerials
- All aerials except Nair have transcendent priority.
- However, the Pikmin used for the aerial can be killed before and after the active hitboxes occur
- Universal landing lag reduction
- All aerials except Nair have transcendent priority.
- All Smashes
- Pikmin used for smashes will bounce off shields
- Smash attacks are still treated as projectiles; they can still be snuffed out by any non-projectile attack and reflected
- Desync smashes seem to be still possible (2:26)
- Up Smash
- Greatly reduced endlag, FAF: 56 → 37 (video, 1:17)
- Pikmin Throw (sideB)
- Damage per tick for all non-purple colors increased
- RYB: 1.1 → 2
- White: 3.7 → 4.7
- Pikmin now bounce off shields
- Throwing no Pikmin has greater endlag than throwing one, FAF 36
- Unknown if this was present in Wii U
- Opponents with a Pikmin latched onto them now have a visibly distressed look on their faces
- Damage per tick for all non-purple colors increased
- Pikmin Order (downB)
- Jab
- Reduced endlag on Jab 1, FAF: 30 → 20 (video, 0:12)
- Up Tilt
- Reduced endlag, FAF: 44 → 39
- Damage has been changed for some hits of Utilt (video, 0:16)
- Hit 3: 0.6 → 0.7
- Hit 4: 0.6 → 0.4
- Hit 5: 0.6 → 0.8
- This results in: 0.6 + 0.6 + 0.7 + 0.4 + 0.8 + 4 = 7.1% base damage total, up from 0.6 * 5 + 4 = 7% in Wii U
- Dash Attack
- Unchanged, but it’s one of the few attacks capable of crossing up shields
- Could be potentially the only attack that can do this
- Unchanged, but it’s one of the few attacks capable of crossing up shields
- Forward Smash
- Pikmin still have to wait out their own FAF (i.e. they have to get up) before they are able to be used for another attack
- Down Smash
- New animation: The Pikmin now do a shove a la Wario instead of a headbutt, and Olimar now jumps in the air before ordering the attack
- Can still hit twice with both Pikmin
- Down Air
- Spikes only occur on aerial opponents (unchanged from Wii U)
- Pikmin Pluck (neutralB)
- Essentially unchanged
- Only 3 Pikmin are still allowed on the field
- Color cycle is the same (Red → Yellow → Blue → White → Purple → Red)
- Olimar will always start with red, yellow, and blue at the beginning of each game
- Dashing can still be cancelled by pluck, but this is not as useful as it was in Wii U since you can cancel dash manually anyway
- Essentially unchanged
- Winged Pikmin (upB)
- UpB can only be cancelled early via aerials; it cannot be cancelled by airdodge
- Duration ~140 frames (video, 0:25)
- All aerials
- Kirby Copy Ability
- "Kirby's Olimar ability is stronger but has more afterlag, I had time to get behind him and down-smash." - @mai_8zK
- Universal Changes to Character Attributes
- Jumpsquat frames lowered: 5 → 3
- Run speed increased: 1.47 → 1.617
- Walk speed increased: 0.9 → 0.945
- Air speed increased: 0.82 → 0.861
- Ultimate Initial dash speed: 1.606 (was 1.6 in Wii U)
- Miscellaneous
- When performing aerials, the Pikmin’s body expands and leaves a colored trail (except Dair), probably indicating the active frames for the attack.
- In fact, many attacks like Pikmin Throw and Usmash leave a colored trail.
- In certain situations, Olimar’s helmet will crack when he gets hit; his eyes will always bug out when he gets hit.
- Olimar has a new ledge hanging animation.
- Some of Olimar’s victory screens have been updated with new animations and more Pikmin sounds.
Unconfirmed Changes
- Moveset Changes
- Pikmin Throw (sideB)
- Yellow’s arc trajectory has been changed such that it is easier for it to latch onto opponents
- Pikmin Throw (sideB)
What to Test
- Pikmin Mechanics
- Flower mechanics
- Do flowers make Pikmin return to Olimar’s line faster when he uses whistle?
- Do flowers alter frame data on attacks and grabs?
- Any significant changes to AI (e.g. Pikmin falling out of line while airborne or near a ledge)?
- Do Pikmin still get stuck returning to Olimar if they run into a lingering hitbox on the ground (R.O.B.’s Gyro, Unira item)?
- Are desyncs still a thing?
- If yes, can they be reliably performed?
- Is Stickmin still possible?
- How do Pikmin out of line interact w/ certain items, which are:
- Food
- Mr. Saturn
Banana Peels- The Links’ bombs
- Peach and Daisy’s turnips
- Sheik’s unactivated Burst Grenade
- Wario’s Bike
Snake-nades- R.O.B.’s Gyro
- Villager’s pieces of lumber from Timber
- Mega Man’s Metal Blade
- PAC-MAN’s Bonus Fruit
- Robin’s discarded Levin Sword and tomes
- Bowser Jr.’s Mechakoopas
- King K. Rool’s crown
- If the Pikmin picks up an item, does the item belong to Olimar or its original owner (important for items w/ lingering hitboxes)?
- How do smashes and sideB interact w/ other moves that interact w/ projectiles, which include:
- The Links’ neutral stance
- Kirby’s Inhale (nB)
- Wario’s Chomp (nB)
- Villager’s Pocket (nB)
- Rosalina’s Gravitational Pull (downB)
- Isabelle’s Pocket (nB)
- All reflectors including but not limited to:
- Mario’s Cape (sideB), Fox’s Reflector (downB), Ness’s bat (Fsmash), Zelda’s Nayru’s Love (nB), Doc’s Super Sheet (sideB), Falco’s Reflector (downB), Mewtwo’s Confusion (sideB), Mr. Game and Watch’s Oil Panic (downB), (Dark) Pit’s Guardian Orbitars (downB), Lucas’s stick (Fsmash), Dedede’s Inhale (nB), R.O.B.’s Arm Rotor (sideB), Wolf’s Reflector (downB), and whatever the Mii Fighters have
- Do Villager and Isabelle’s Pocket transform the pocketed Pikmin into the Kirby Copy Ability version of Pikmin like in Wii U?
- How does non-purple sideB interact with counters, which include:
- Peach and Daisy’s Toad
- Lucario’s Double Team
- Little Mac’s Slip Counter
- Greninja’s Substitute
- Whatever the Mii Fighters have
- Shulk’s Vision
- Bayonetta’s Witch Time
- Incineroar’s Revenge
- Nearly every Fire Emblem’s Counter (Surge)
- Palutena’s downB (Counter/Reflect Barrier) and King K. Rool’s Gut Check both act as a counter and reflector. How do smashes and sideB interact with them?
- How do smashes and sideB interact w/ other projectiles (important ones to test are Fox and Falco’s Blasters (nB) and R.O.B.’s Robo Beam (nB))?
- What specific attacks in Ultimate are blue Pikmin immune to? (e.g. Greninja’s Water Shuriken, Squirtle’s uncharged Water Gun, Corbin’s Counter Surge, etc.)
- Flower mechanics
- Moveset Changes
- Grab
- Is there a period of time where the Pikmin “reels” in the opponent before doing a pummel or throw?
- All Throws
- Does the knockback for Fthrow, Bthrow, and Uthrow increase if more than 1 Pikmin is used?
- If the opponent gets hit by another attack while the throw occurs, does the throw animation still occur? Does the opponent still take the damage and knockback from it?
- If Olimar gets hit out of his throw animation, does the Pikmin throw animation still occur? Does the opponent still take damage and knockback from it?
- Fsmash
- Does the Pikmin have a faster FAF?
- Can the Pikmin be whistled to come back to Olimar before it hits its FAF?
- Does the Pikmin have a faster FAF?
- Pikmin Throw (sideB)
- Any changes to how long the Pikmin is attached to the opponent?
- Max amount of frames Pikmin can be attached to is at most 360 frames, or 6 seconds in Wii U (Link, look under “Pikmin Grab Duration Formula”)
- Any way to determine what body part of the opponent the Pikmin will attach to?
- Any changes to how long the Pikmin is attached to the opponent?
- Winged Pikmin (upB)
- Any changes to the amount of “fuel” or how fast the “fuel” charges?
- Is upB’s total distance still influenced by the colors of the Pikmin that Olimar is holding?
- In Wii U, purples decrease the potential total distance more than reds, yellows, and blues do, which decrease the distance more than whites do.
- Pikmin Order (downB)
- Has whistle changed such that it will always call Pikmin back to Olimar, unlike Wii U?
- Grab
Update History
- Patch 1.2.0 (12/13/2018) - No gameplay changes based on testing
- Patch 1.1.0 - Initial day 1 release build, happy smashing!
Credits
- Greward, for initial impressions on Olimar changes from full demo
- The Spanish Smash Bros. community for providing video footage of the full demo
- @mai_8zK on Twitter, for initial impressions on Olimar changes from full demo
- Shuton, for initial impressions on Olimar changes from full demo
- DRAFIX, for pre-release research on Olimar
- Emukiller, dotcom, hb2, Myran, Pilgrim_NE and “love live is in bbtag” for info gathered from testing
- Meshima, for Pikmin params
- This Japanese website that has a log on every character’s changes in Ultimate
- KuroganeHammer for character attributes
- Arildis and Dattoking, for translating the tweets from the Japanese smashers
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