Okay, remaining Mario for day 2. I have some troubles. Help?

[PKNintendo]

Trouble #1 is Mario's fair. Is their any pratical use? It's extremely slow and laggy, and it's the weakest spike in the game. I've landed it once, but that was a fluke. Should I totally disregard it and continue using Mario's Uair like a substitute Fair?

Trouble #2 is Luigi's. Just to piss me off, my brother picked Luigi and usually wins. In the air, it's difficult in facing Luigi with his nair, on the ground, I have it slightly easier. I hate how he out prioritize your aerials, with his. And I always thought his fair got nerfed but...

PS: Fludd and the Mario tornado are too good.

 

[Ray/Boshi]

I myself have trouble incorporating the use of Fair into my game also, let alone connecting with it sucessfuly. It's one of them slow moves that can be seen a mile away. Although if it's unexpected it will most probably connect. I wouldnt outright disregard it though. Uair's nice and better overall, but you never know, a Fair might just save the day.


Luigi's got Mario beat overall in a sense. Slightly quicker moves, more priority. Mario also needs to get up close so that doesnt make life any easier. Luckily Mario has a cape and water gun.

 

[PKNintendo]

I myself have trouble incorporating the use of Fair into my game also, let alone connecting with it sucessfuly. It's one of them slow moves that can be seen a mile away. Although if it's unexpected it will most probably connect. I wouldnt outright disregard it though. Uair's nice and better overall, but you never know, a Fair might just save the day.


Luigi's got Mario beat overall in a sense. Slightly quicker moves, more priority. Mario also needs to get up close so that doesnt make life any easier. Luckily Mario has a cape and water gun.

You would be surprised, but the cape and Fludd can gimp Luigi fairly well. My main trouble in the matchup is killing the sucker. Angled Upsmash is fast and strong, but still not that fast. I usually kill but fludd or Lucky Upsmash.

 

[hippiedude92]

#1 Don't disregard Mario's Fair. It still has it's uses. Don't always go for the spike. Setup yourself for it. Upair strings into a Fair works nice but takes pratice. Cape glide into a Fair spike works nice as well. Remember a fo sho spike works better higher %s.

# 2 Fireball game, edgeguarding/gimping is where you want Luigi at. Just don't fall for those jabs to shoryukens. Also his Fair did get nerfed, in terms of knockback. But its still great to string other attacks too =D

 

[BoTastic!]

idk. Maybe because you don't have enough experience with Mario. Fair isn't even hard to connect and is far from useless. It just takes set ups to actually land it. Going for a bunch of Fairs is stupid anyway, if you're not good at using it. Fsmash, Usmash, Bair, Nair, his gimping, and even his Uair are more reliable.

 

[mario brawler]

I don't have much problems with landing a fair ?_? it OWNS!!!

 

[Kanzaki]

Mario has the weakest spike in the game :[ But that doesn't mean it's useless.

It looks as if it has a long starting time, but it's actually faster than it looks. Here's a good example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yubiWBhrhcA

Around 0.43, ledge canceled bair -> fair for the win!

-note: I know that's a bad Marth, don't need to comment on that or anything.



You can also watch my combo vid in my sig for the first 40 seconds, I did a ledge canceled uair -> fair! Yay me ^^ On my next video I'm currently working on, there's gonna be a lot more of those, I learned how to do it consistently! Yay me! ^^

 

[A2ZOMG]

Trouble #1 is Mario's fair. Is their any pratical use? It's extremely slow and laggy, and it's the weakest spike in the game. I've landed it once, but that was a fluke. Should I totally disregard it and continue using Mario's Uair like a substitute Fair?

Here are ways I occasionally use the F-air.

1. Brickwall tactics. You can complete the entire F-air animation from a fullhop and perform a N-air or U-air before you hit the ground. What also works is double jumping into another F-air which allows you to do a B-air before you hit the ground.

2. Ledgeguarding. It's a weak spike, but still, a spike. When you land it, it is Mario's most disruptive tool he has for ledgeguarding. Good ways to catch someone with it are Cape gliding -> F-air. There are more difficult spikes to land like Captain Falcon's, Luigi's, and G&W's. And unlike characters like Olimar, Mario can jump a pretty good distance away from the stage and still make it back.

3. KOing. IIRC, the non-spike hitbox is Mario's strongest aerial KO move. On Smashville especially, you can punish people on the platform with this attack and it hits decently hard.

Really, the main problem about the F-air is that the ending lag is awful. The startup isn't too horrible.

Trouble #2 is Luigi's. Just to piss me off, my brother picked Luigi and usually wins. In the air, it's difficult in facing Luigi with his nair, on the ground, I have it slightly easier. I hate how he out prioritize your aerials, with his. And I always thought his fair got nerfed but...

PS: Fludd and the Mario tornado are too good.

Luigi vs Mario is VERY even in my opinion. Luigi is of course a better character, but the matchup itself? Mario outcamps Luigi and has more reliable defensive options from things like Up-B and u-smash Out Of Shield, which Luigi can't really do. Mario's Smash attacks ALL outrange Luigi's too. Both characters can ledgeguard each other easily. Luigi's main advantages are that a lot of his damage dealing attacks have better range, and his KO moves, when he does land them, are stronger of course.

As for Luigi's N-air, U-tilt and N-air trade hits with it IIRC. U-air either trades hits or outprioritizes it. The last hit of the D-air outprioritizes it.

 

[PKNintendo]

THanks for the tips. I just owned my bro right now. Trip into Fsmash FTW!

 

[ALiAsVee]

Even if don't sweetspot his fair to try to spike Luigi, it typically knocks him away anyway, so you can set yourself up again when he tries to return on stage. Luigi is most likely gonna use torpedo to gain back the horizontal distance so as long as you don't get hit by a misfire, you can land the spike. You can say higher level Luigi's aren't that obvious in their recoveries...but the point is, its still Luigi, and the recovery is gonna be obvious no matter who uses him really.

 

[Matador]

I honestly don't see why people say Mario vs Luigi is even. Luigi's aerials are all better than ours in this matchup (aside from MAYBE mario's Dair) and all have more range/power/priority. Mario's OOS game is hampered because of Luigi's traction, which makes Luigi's slow approach not so much of a problem for him; he can just fastfall a fullhopped Nair with minimal risk.

His comboability is better, his KO power is far superior, and his recovery covers much more ground. Granted, it's easily gimpable....if the Luigi's stupid. Tornado first and recovering high pretty much kills any chance of gimping Mario has. And Luigi =/= Sonic, meaning he's not in nearly as much trouble when the opponent is below him; especially if that opponent is Mario.

Seriously, Luigi can KO Mario at 80% easy from up-angled Fsmash (if hit at 60% by jab -> upB, you're prolly not gonna live). Mario, on the other hand, kills Luigi at around 130% from an unstaled Usmash and about 100% from an Fsmash. Normally approach is a problem for Luigi since he has abysmal aerial mobility and Tornado has barely any priority, but Luigi can Nair through more than half of Mario's moveset. Our Jab game is dead because he's so floaty that he can Nair out of everything (yeah...Nair is a ***** in the right hands) which leads to comboing.

35:65 at best imo

 

[Jupz]

fairs can be used when there off the edge, i use it occasionally but usually i use

bairs, and that is what you need to use to outprioritize luigis airs

 

[mario brawler]

lol I go more with 4-6 or 45-55
luigi is better than mario but 35-65 sound a bit to much
the only real probelm I have with luigi is his ******* nair.its so **** broken
if luigi recovers with anything other than a tornado im gonna cape him and most likely he will die or atleast come back to the stage with an extra 30% damage
oh and spot dodging his aerial aproach can bring wonders
also,stutter step fsmash owns!

 

[Matador]

lol I go more with 4-6 or 45-55
luigi is better than mario but 35-65 sound a bit to much

Even with all of this, I don't think Luigi's better than mario at all. I still think it's down to preference. Keep in mind that all these things that Luigi has over mario are ONLY over Mario, not over much of the cast. That's where Luigi's glaring disadvantages shine and where Mario's pale in comparison.

Think really hard about the matchup before you answer this question. What pros does Mario really have in this matchup?

the only real probelm I have with luigi is his ******* nair.its so **** broken

This is mainly why the matchup is so bad imo.

if luigi recovers with anything other than a tornado im gonna cape him and most likely he will die or atleast come back to the stage with an extra 30% damage

He'll recover with Tornado first if he has knowledge of the matchup. A good Luigi won't give you the opportunity to cape or anything because he'll be too high; that's what I was trying to get at.

oh and spot dodging his aerial aproach can bring wonders
also.

Not really, seeing as he can fit 3 aerials into one SH, the lag after a spotdodge will easily be punished. Nair is also a spotdodge punisher since it stays out so long.

 

[mario brawler]

IGNORE...lol

 

[mario brawler]

Even with all of this, I don't think Luigi's better than mario at all. I still think it's down to preference. Keep in mind that all these things that Luigi has over mario are ONLY over Mario, not over much of the cast. That's where Luigi's glaring disadvantages shine and where Mario's pale in comparison.

Think really hard about the matchup before you answer this question. What pros does Mario really have in this matchup?
well mario has a few,I do know that luig has more tho,still 7-3 seems really high for me

This is mainly why the matchup is so bad imo.
lmao I know >.<,why does his nair have to be so much better than ours T_T

He'll recover with Tornado first if he has knowledge of the matchup. A good Luigi won't give you the opportunity to cape or anything because he'll be too high; that's what I was trying to get at.
agreed

Not really, seeing as he can fit 3 aerials into one SH, the lag after a spotdodge will easily be punished. Nair is also a spotdodge punisher since it stays out so long.
I was talking about dodging when he lands,even though nair and fair have minimal lag,it's still enough to get you a grab...I think

umm 10 chars?

 

[A2ZOMG]

I honestly don't see why people say Mario vs Luigi is even. Luigi's aerials are all better than ours in this matchup (aside from MAYBE mario's Dair) and all have more range/power/priority. Mario's OOS game is hampered because of Luigi's traction, which makes Luigi's slow approach not so much of a problem for him; he can just fastfall a fullhopped Nair with minimal risk.

Luigi's aerials aren't better in terms of priority from what I've seen EXCEPT for his F-air. The other aerials and attacks? Pretty much the same priority because I've had gazillions of different things trade hits in this matchup. For example Mario's N-air I'm pretty sure trades hits with Luigi's etc etc.

Luigi does have slightly longer legs, but that doesn't really give him a significant priority advantage.

I don't understand your point on Mario's OOS game. Mario will only use it against Luigi's aerial approaches or badly spaced Tornados. It's pretty darn effective if you ask me. If you see an aerial headed your way, or if an aerial hits your shield, 99% of the time you can easily connect with an Up-B which will knock Luigi far enough away for you to restart the situation.

His comboability is better, his KO power is far superior, and his recovery covers much more ground. Granted, it's easily gimpable....if the Luigi's stupid. Tornado first and recovering high pretty much kills any chance of gimping Mario has. And Luigi =/= Sonic, meaning he's not in nearly as much trouble when the opponent is below him; especially if that opponent is Mario.

I honestly think Sonic is more difficult than Luigi to deal with when Mario is below. Sonic has ways of moving around the air quickly, and the priority on his D-air isn't that bad. Luigi can only move upwards quickly in the air.

Seriously, Luigi can KO Mario at 80% easy from up-angled Fsmash (if hit at 60% by jab -> upB, you're prolly not gonna live). Mario, on the other hand, kills Luigi at around 130% from an unstaled Usmash and about 100% from an Fsmash. Normally approach is a problem for Luigi since he has abysmal aerial mobility and Tornado has barely any priority, but Luigi can Nair through more than half of Mario's moveset. Our Jab game is dead because he's so floaty that he can Nair out of everything (yeah...Nair is a ***** in the right hands) which leads to comboing.

You forget, Mario's Smashes have more range than Luigi's, and come out just as fast. Mario can also angle his F-smash to deter aerial approaches too.

As for that stupid N-air I'm pretty sure you can Up-B it if he's being obvious with it. Or U-air/U-smash it for that matter if your timing is good. It's not the priority that's the real issue but rather the lingering hitbox and high initial vertical knockback.

 

[Kanzaki]

I didn't read much, but Luigi's air game beats Mario, and can actually KO easier.

 

[Matador]

Luigi's aerials aren't better in terms of priority from what I've seen EXCEPT for his F-air. The other aerials and attacks? Pretty much the same priority because I've had gazillions of different things trade hits in this matchup. For example Mario's N-air I'm pretty sure trades hits with Luigi's etc etc.

Luigi does have slightly longer legs, but that doesn't really give him a significant priority advantage.

Range = priority in the air. Luigi has more range in his aerials than Mario. Our Nair and his have equal priority, yes, but when it comes to his Bair and Fair, we lose. We're not completely run over aerially, but we definitely have a hard time having our way.

I don't understand your point on Mario's OOS game. Mario will only use it against Luigi's aerial approaches or badly spaced Tornados. It's pretty darn effective if you ask me. If you see an aerial headed your way, or if an aerial hits your shield, 99% of the time you can easily connect with an Up-B which will knock Luigi far enough away for you to restart the situation.

You use upB OOS much more than I do, so I'm sure attacking OOS would work much better for you than me. Even then, the risk involved in upBing out of shield in a matchup like this is too high. I know screwing up an upB out of shield isn't something that normally happens, but missing is a free upB from Luigi. I don't even want the chance of giving him that opportunity.

I honestly think Sonic is more difficult than Luigi to deal with when Mario is below. Sonic has ways of moving around the air quickly, and the priority on his D-air isn't that bad. Luigi can only move upwards quickly in the air.

Luigi has Nair, Dair, and DI'd Bair as well as fireballs if spaced well. He also has priority and much better attack speed in the air than Sonic and is much less predictable. All Sonic has when attacked from above is...autocancelled Dairs.

You forget, Mario's Smashes have more range than Luigi's, and come out just as fast. Mario can also angle his F-smash to deter aerial approaches too.

His up-angled Fsmash comes out as fast as our Dsmash; that's pretty fast for an attack that KOs at 80% staled with barely any ending lag. We have range...but he has everything else here as well.

As for that stupid N-air I'm pretty sure you can Up-B it if he's being obvious with it. Or U-air/U-smash it for that matter if your timing is good. It's not the priority that's the real issue but rather the lingering hitbox and high initial vertical knockback.

Actually, using upB is probably a very good strategy in this matchup because it hinders that priority issue for Luigi. I agree here.

Luigi's combo game and KO power are too great for this to be even a 6:4 matchup imo. He can thwart our gimp options, and generally outranges and outprioritizes us. What do we REALLY have to work with against a good Luigi?

 

[BoTastic!]

uhh matador Luigi's Fsmash is fast but its not faster than Mario's Dsmash.

 

[Matador]

uhh matador Luigi's Fsmash is fast but its not faster than Mario's Dsmash.

It's fast enough. That's my point.

 

[_Green_]

Er, I've always thought Mario had more of an advantage over Luigi.
Even the the match up chart here says that Mario has the advantage over luigi (not to say it's 100% official but still)
I find it easier for mario to combo luigi than for luigi to combo him as Mario's attacks aerials come out faster.

But who cares what I think, lol.

 

[cHooKay]

you can't let people read you when you excecute a fair, you need to utilize your DI and jumping skills. As long as you throw out a fair when a foe least expects it, it should connect. Learn how to time a full jump fair without lag, i usually do that into a usmash or something. Practice the fair until your fully award of the frames of the attack.

I dunno, its best to learn from live examples, if you want, i can play ya in a wifi match later to show you what i'm talking about just to learn... learning how to use the fair is all in experience, i pretty much learned how to be efficient with the fair by watching the movements in Ike's arials, the actual arm movement of mario with a little DI control can help you force in a fair...

As for weegee, you can shield grab or cape his arials easily with a little practice. A well timed fsmash against any of weegee's arials proves effective in marios case as well. Use the fireballs, mix short hopped fireballs with "raining" full jump fireballs. By raining i mean do a full jump with a fireball, and after that you should be somewhere near the peak of marios jump, at that point jump again and fireball. This approach proves somewhat effective against luigi (btw, its SUPER EFFECTIVE against ROB)

BTW, if you can't at least 3 stock a level nine cpu, you know you still have a lot of work to do. Try doing this to test yourself, this should be at least somewhat easy...