Oh dear... The impossible has happened ! WARNING SPOILERS (Smash 4 is hackable)

[Tiberious]

Well, when you figure things out, could we at least hold off until official support for the game is done? No need to step on Nintendo's toes with the eventual 'Sm4shEx Engine', after all.

 

[Iceweasel]

Well, when you figure things out, could we at least hold off until official support for the game is done? No need to step on Nintendo's toes with the eventual 'Sm4shEx Engine', after all.

get out reggie

 

[Dhillz521]

Alright so I guess he didn't mean to put the shadow over sonic thing and all the other custom costume stuff in his last video or something but here it is now. It's mostly glitchy but it's a start.

THATS IT! SOMEBODY GET THIS ON THE FRONTPAGE!

 

[Tiberious]

get out reggie

Really? The **** is this kind of response? I mean, it's just simple logic. If Smash 4 is hacked to a significant degree (right now, it's the baby steps that were seen at the start of Brawl hacking), what do you really expect the response by Nintendo and Sakurai's team to be?

At the end of the day, Nintendo's still a business. If developing further content for any game makes no financial sense, they'll stop doing it. And hacking the game to roll your own DLC is going to do exactly that faster (after all, why buy the official stuff if you can just put your own in?). I'm not suggesting waiting until Wii U's a dead platform, or online play is disabled. I just don't want to see hacking cause future DLC plans to be scrapped.

That out of the way, adding extra characters to Smash 4 is probably easier than it was to come up with BrawlEx, since it was designed for DLC. All you'd have to do is find a way to hook into that functionality, and boom, more characters than you know what to do with, unless they left some kind of hard-coded limit in there, which I'd kinda doubt.

 

[Kurri ★]

Really? The **** is this kind of response? I mean, it's just simple logic. If Smash 4 is hacked to a significant degree (right now, it's the baby steps that were seen at the start of Brawl hacking), what do you really expect the response by Nintendo and Sakurai's team to be?

At the end of the day, Nintendo's still a business. If developing further content for any game makes no financial sense, they'll stop doing it. And hacking the game to roll your own DLC is going to do exactly that faster (after all, why buy the official stuff if you can just put your own in?). I'm not suggesting waiting until Wii U's a dead platform, or online play is disabled. I just don't want to see hacking cause future DLC plans to be scrapped.

That out of the way, adding extra characters to Smash 4 is probably easier than it was to come up with BrawlEx, since it was designed for DLC. All you'd have to do is find a way to hook into that functionality, and boom, more characters than you know what to do with, unless they left some kind of hard-coded limit in there, which I'd kinda doubt.

Sky rim did just fine with DLC and mids, and Fallout 4 will do better. Mods and DLC can coexist.

 

[Mobes]

Sky rim did just fine with DLC and mids, and Fallout 4 will do better. Mods and DLC can coexist.

Let's not forget that Bethesda have explicitly made tools modders use. There's a difference between that and having the community make the tools yourself, having to reverse engineer file-formats and so on, which the developer / publisher doesn't have any (or less) control over.

Look, it's hard to pinpoint exactly why Nintendo would either continue DLC or not if Smash 4 got some sort of hacking scene going, but:

I've always figured that the difference between mods for consoles (Wii in this case) and PCs is that the methods that let players enable mods on consoles are more likely to enable piracy.

That's not to say piracy doesn't exist on PC, and that PC mods have no hand in enabling it there either .. but think about this:

When you're messing with your Wii to insert the Homebrew Channel (for example), versus dragging a folder into the game's folder to enable a new map (another example).. You're more likely to connect the dots via modding the Wii, that you're using methods that can more likely give you access to piracy.

I assume this is what Nintendo's way of thinking is, and probably other console manufacturers.

 

[Kurri ★]

Let's not forget that Bethesda have explicitly made tools modders use. There's a difference between that and having the community make the tools yourself, having to reverse engineer file-formats and so on, which the developer / publisher doesn't have any (or less) control over.

Look, it's hard to pinpoint exactly why Nintendo would either continue DLC or not if Smash 4 got some sort of hacking scene going, but:

I've always figured that the difference between mods for consoles (Wii in this case) and PCs is that the methods that let players enable mods on consoles are more likely to enable piracy.

That's not to say piracy doesn't exist on PC, and that PC mods have no hand in enabling it there either .. but think about this:

When you're messing with your Wii to insert the Homebrew Channel (for example), versus dragging a folder into the game's folder to enable a new map (another example).. You're more likely to connect the dots via modding the Wii, that you're using methods that can more likely give you access to piracy.

I assume this is what Nintendo's way of thinking is, and probably other console manufacturers.

All of these things I've completely forgot about, good point.

 

[Iceweasel]

Really? The **** is this kind of response? I mean, it's just simple logic. If Smash 4 is hacked to a significant degree (right now, it's the baby steps that were seen at the start of Brawl hacking), what do you really expect the response by Nintendo and Sakurai's team to be?

At the end of the day, Nintendo's still a business. If developing further content for any game makes no financial sense, they'll stop doing it. And hacking the game to roll your own DLC is going to do exactly that faster (after all, why buy the official stuff if you can just put your own in?). I'm not suggesting waiting until Wii U's a dead platform, or online play is disabled. I just don't want to see hacking cause future DLC plans to be scrapped.

That out of the way, adding extra characters to Smash 4 is probably easier than it was to come up with BrawlEx, since it was designed for DLC. All you'd have to do is find a way to hook into that functionality, and boom, more characters than you know what to do with, unless they left some kind of hard-coded limit in there, which I'd kinda doubt.

Don't forget how easy Wii hacking was. Any idiot could use Smash Stack, Bannerbomb, Twilight Hack, or several other exploits to mod their Wii. Nintendo didn't stop releasing games, nor did they can the Wii, they just kept going. Why? Becuase they were still making money.

The DS had a big homebrew scene too, except this time piracy was rampant. Nintendo didn't can the DS, it managed to outsell the Wii by over half of the Wii's total sales. It still printed money.

The Fighter Ballot characters are probably the last characters we're going to get anyways. Of course, Sakurai could always be "persuaded" (because Japanese corporate culture) to stay on and make more, but at some point he's gonna need to work on Smash5. If the ability to mod your games negatively affected Smash 4's DLC schedule in any way, it's because either Nintendo or Sora would be messing with it completely out of spite.

 

[Numbuh 214]

I agree, iceweasel; Nintendo would likely leave mods well enough alone, if this modding community designed itself around distancing itself from piracy as much as it possibly could. Obvious ground rules include banning anyone who uploads questionable content, such as a full dump of the ISO that could be run off a backup disc or a hard drive or a character select screen with official DLC characters on it. There will be places to find those sorts of things, to be sure; but the lower we make our tolerance for it, the better of a chance the modding community stands against the inevitable response from Nintendo.

 

[Iceweasel]

I agree, iceweasel; Nintendo would likely leave mods well enough alone, if this modding community designed itself around distancing itself from piracy as much as it possibly could. Obvious ground rules include banning anyone who uploads questionable content, such as a full dump of the ISO that could be run off a backup disc or a hard drive or a character select screen with official DLC characters on it. There will be places to find those sorts of things, to be sure; but the lower we make our tolerance for it, the better of a chance the modding community stands against the inevitable response from Nintendo.

Legally, Nintendo/Sora can't do anything to the modding community unless they release an ISO dump (which falls outside the scope of the game modding community, that's closer to the territory of console modding), or arguably if they released a DLC character identical to (or maybe very similar to) one that's being sold as DLC. It's the only reason Project Melee hasn't been C&D'd after all this time and all the bawling from Nintendo and Sakurai. Any legal threats they make would be completely frivolous, and would probably bite them in the ass.

Of course, this is under current U.S. law. When/If the TPP passes, there may be a provision in there against this sort of thing, because almost everything that could "harm potential future profits" has some sort of provision against it, including organizing boycotts. Of course, then there are the inevitable legal challenges against a trade agreement so restrictive it directly violates the U.S. Constitution, which could declare some or all of the relevant provisions invalid. And since the actual terms of the agreement must be kept secret for five years after it's been ratified, there's the question of how such rules can be enforced if they're not allowed to be known.

 

[Tiberious]

Don't forget how easy Wii hacking was. Any idiot could use Smash Stack, Bannerbomb, Twilight Hack, or several other exploits to mod their Wii. Nintendo didn't stop releasing games, nor did they can the Wii, they just kept going. Why? Becuase they were still making money.

You're forgetting the fact they were releasing System Updates whose sole purpose was to block Twilight Hack and delete HBC, turning the scene into a cat-and-mouse game for a few years.

If the ability to mod your games negatively affected Smash 4's DLC schedule in any way, it's because either Nintendo or Sora would be messing with it completely out of spite.

Which is a response not outside the realm of possibility for Sakurai. Remember, he's the one who answered criticism of his games with "Have you made your own game before?". In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if DLC plans have already changed thanks to the hacking community.

I was certain that Ryu would have been announced as available at Evo 2015 (only a month away from the update's release) had the reverse-engineers not leaked his inclusion in v1.0.8. Can you imagine the hype that would've been generated if Sakurai could have had the chance to go up on the main stage before the Smash 4 finals and show Ryu's trailer on the big screen?

Granted, you don't have to tell me what some of the hardcore SF-heads think about Smash. But there are some that play both, and seeing that game's poster boy being announced on the biggest fighting game stage in the world would generate buzz.

Instead, we got the "New Content Direct" that was fairly quiet and low-key. I can't help but think that parts of it were cobbled together last-minute once the update went live early and got data-mined.

Legally, Nintendo/Sora can't do anything to the modding community unless they release an ISO dump (which falls outside the scope of the game modding community, that's closer to the territory of console modding), or arguably if they released a DLC character identical to (or maybe very similar to) one that's being sold as DLC. It's the only reason Project Melee hasn't been C&D'd after all this time and all the bawling from Nintendo and Sakurai. Any legal threats they make would be completely frivolous, and would probably bite them in the ***.

Uh, actually, they can anytime they want to. All you have to do is look at other fan projects that got C&Ded to oblivion, like SoR Remake and the Chrono Trigger fan project.

The way I see it, the only reason Nintendo doesn't is because doing so would only harm their reputation among gamers. They've had their experiences with "legally-correct-but-ethically-dubious" decisions before (Smash at Evo 2013, anyone?), and they dealt with the backdraft that made them reconsider making such moves in the future.

Of course, they do have their limits. Go on, talk about Project M over on Miiverse, I dare you.

 

[Mobes]

Don't forget how easy Wii hacking was. Any idiot could use Smash Stack, Bannerbomb, Twilight Hack, or several other exploits to mod their Wii. Nintendo didn't stop releasing games, nor did they can the Wii, they just kept going. Why? Becuase they were still making money.

The DS had a big homebrew scene too, except this time piracy was rampant. Nintendo didn't can the DS, it managed to outsell the Wii by over half of the Wii's total sales. It still printed money.

Yeah, the hardware sold well, but most games that weren't Nintendos didn't.

 

[Dhillz521]

As long as there is NO pirates then they won't do anything. But there will always be Pirates.
@Dantarion Did you guys find some sort of DRM yet?

 

[Iceweasel]

You're forgetting the fact they were releasing System Updates whose sole purpose was to block Twilight Hack and delete HBC, turning the scene into a cat-and-mouse game for a few years.

I didn't forget, it's just not relevant. The big N tried to stop the hacks, but they didn't take legal action against anybody for making them. There were a few (maybe 5, but IIRC it was two-three people/teams) they could have sued, but there was no grounds to sue Team Twiizers, other exploit developers, or the vast majority of all Wii homebrew devs.

Which is a response not outside the realm of possibility for Sakurai. Remember, he's the one who answered criticism of his games with "Have you made your own game before?". In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if DLC plans have already changed thanks to the hacking community.

I was certain that Ryu would have been announced as available at Evo 2015 (only a month away from the update's release) had the reverse-engineers not leaked his inclusion in v1.0.8. Can you imagine the hype that would've been generated if Sakurai could have had the chance to go up on the main stage before the Smash 4 finals and show Ryu's trailer on the big screen?

Granted, you don't have to tell me what some of the hardcore SF-heads think about Smash. But there are some that play both, and seeing that game's poster boy being announced on the biggest fighting game stage in the world would generate buzz.

Instead, we got the "New Content Direct" that was fairly quiet and low-key. I can't help but think that parts of it were cobbled together last-minute once the update went live early and got data-mined.

In other words, Sakurai taking any action about this would constitute him being a giant baby. I'm not sure how things worked under Iwata, but Nintendo is in dire financial straits and I doubt that the current acting CEO is willing to let anybody cost them money by throwing a tantrum.

Uh, actually, they can anytime they want to. All you have to do is look at other fan projects that got C&Ded to oblivion, like SoR Remake and the Chrono Trigger fan project.

The way I see it, the only reason Nintendo doesn't is because doing so would only harm their reputation among gamers. They've had their experiences with "legally-correct-but-ethically-dubious" decisions before (Smash at Evo 2013, anyone?), and they dealt with the backdraft that made them reconsider making such moves in the future.

Of course, they do have their limits. Go on, talk about Project M over on Miiverse, I dare you.

There is a legal right for consumers to modify their games (Lewis Galoob Toys v. Nintendo of America), and a right for developers to create mods (Micro Star v. Form Gen). Fans remaking a game does not fall in line with either of these court decisions, and actually is against the law.

Banning people your service Miiverse for "discussing criminal activity" is perfectly legal, even if the activity being discussed is not actually criminal.


Of course, there's always the nuclear option of filing a frivolous lawsuit specifically to bankrupt someone you don't like, but there are severe consequences for filing lawsuits of this nature. Even if this nuclear option was chosen, it would piss off nearly everybody in the Smash community, and probably most of the general game modding community too, resulting in huge legal defense funds being set up specifically to make Nintendo pay.

Yeah, the hardware sold well, but most games that weren't Nintendos didn't.

That's not really a modding problem, though. The Wii's library had atrocious third-party support. If you thought the Gamecube and N64 was bad, you ain't seen nothing yet.

 

[ChaikaBestGirl]

whoever changes Sonic's taunts back will be my hero

 

[76leelee76]

Just because MK8 is hackable doesn't mean SSB4 is hackable; though it probably is.
As for mrbean35000vr, he's not any sort of "bad hacker" and he actually modded mario kart like the way people modded project m.

If I have to guess, Nintendo will put up an anti-cheat system if they haven't already and the only type of modding acceptable will probably be custom stages and a "project m" sorta thing but for the Wii U.

One thing is for sure: None of this will happen in 2015. Probably.

 

[Iceweasel]

Just because MK8 is hackable doesn't mean SSB4 is hackable; though it probably is.

Everything is hackable. It's just a question of practicality. We've already established that file swapping (what Brawl hacks did) is possible in Smash 4. There's a crack team of nerds working on hacking the Wii U as we speak. Hacks will happen again.

As for mrbean35000vr, he's not any sort of "bad hacker" and he actually modded mario kart like the way people modded project m.

...Who said he was a bad hacker?

If I have to guess, Nintendo will put up an anti-cheat system if they haven't already and the only type of modding acceptable will probably be custom stages and a "project m" sorta thing but for the Wii U.

Anti-cheat systems are unnecessary. Smash 4's online mode transmits inputs, percent, and stock count. That's it. Calculations are done locally. If someone mods their game to make Fox's jab deal 999% and 1HKO, and they play against someone who hasn't, as soon as Fox lands a jab the games will desync and both players will be booted out. The closest thing to an anti-cheat system that might be implemented (assuming Sakurai doesn't have a duck about alternate costumes, music and the possibility of P4M) would likely be an eshop check, to verify that Nintendo made enough shekels making people pay extra for returning characters and stages.

One thing is for sure: None of this will happen in 2015. Probably.

I dunno, there's still 3 1/2 months left in the year. Homebrew has been out and working once already, but Nintendo had a security patch ready. The same mod program still works, we just need another exploit found to make it run again. If they could somehow make it load files off the SD card instead of forcing it to load them from a computer through the wireless adapter, it would allow Smashers to take their texture and music hacks with them to tournaments. I could finally make good on my threat to turn the whole game into Go KK Rider.

 

[76leelee76]

Everything is hackable. It's just a question of practicality. We've already established that file swapping (what Brawl hacks did) is possible in Smash 4. There's a crack team of nerds working on hacking the Wii U as we speak. Hacks will happen again.


...Who said he was a bad hacker?


Anti-cheat systems are unnecessary. Smash 4's online mode transmits inputs, percent, and stock count. That's it. Calculations are done locally. If someone mods their game to make Fox's jab deal 999% and 1HKO, and they play against someone who hasn't, as soon as Fox lands a jab the games will desync and both players will be booted out. The closest thing to an anti-cheat system that might be implemented (assuming Sakurai doesn't have a duck about alternate costumes, music and the possibility of P4M) would likely be an eshop check, to verify that Nintendo made enough shekels making people pay extra for returning characters and stages.



I dunno, there's still 3 1/2 months left in the year. Homebrew has been out and working once already, but Nintendo had a security patch ready. The same mod program still works, we just need another exploit found to make it run again. If they could somehow make it load files off the SD card instead of forcing it to load them from a computer through the wireless adapter, it would allow Smashers to take their texture and music hacks with them to tournaments. I could finally make good on my threat to turn the whole game into Go KK Rider.

When I sayed "though it probably is" I meant it's probably hackable.

Nobody said he was a bad hacker, but it was PROBABLY gonna turn out that way.

Don't know anything about anti cheat, I guess you got me there.

I highly doubt smash bros will be modded in 2015, and to be more specific, custom stages, new characters, etc. It takes a while. Go KK rider, lol xD

 

[Iceweasel]

I highly doubt smash bros will be modded in 2015, and to be more specific, custom stages, new characters, etc.

Nah blood, you don't get it. It's been hacked already. We've got music and model hacks, and one guy even managed to change characters' hit data. The model hacks need work (and LOTS of it), but there's been a lot of headway. I haven't seen anyone add new characters, or at least new character slots. But we can't expect to have something as large and vibrant as Brawl's modding community when we had hacks available to the public, once, for a few days, a few months ago.

PS - Theoretically, when the Wii U gets another exploit discovered we can have full modding abilities to all games. Caffiine, the mod program used, is basically a universal file-swapper. If you know enough about the code and/or file structure, you should be able to mod any game, or at least any disk game.

 

[Dhillz521]

Mr Bean was the hero when MKWii came around. Hell his brother learned how to get more then 200 tracks in the game! http://chadsoft.co.uk So when u guys say he is a bad hacker that statement is not valid because like most of us he hates FTW hackers to the point where he delvloped a system that made the FTW hacks back fire LOL. As seen here

Oh and don't consider this spam.

 

[Sudoi]

I don't care about any damn DLC. If I want to support the Devs, I'll buy it. I'm excited about being able to view mechanics unseen normally and finding new tech from it or at least how it works (Like melee in its current state)

 

[Sudoi]

Mr Bean was the hero when MKWii came around. Hell his brother learned how to get more then 200 tracks in the game! http://chadsoft.co.uk So when u guys say he is a bad hacker that statement is not valid because like most of us he hates FTW hackers to the point where he delvloped a system that made the FTW hacks back fire LOL. As seen here

Oh and don't consider this spam.

Mr. Bean is an awesome guy. I remember watching his videos back when I was younger. I thought all the stuff he did was actually fine in a legal standpoint because he never did anything 'wrong.'

 

[Tiberious]

Yeah, the hardware sold well, but most games that weren't Nintendos didn't.

One word: shovelware. Nobody was interested in making quality titles for the Wii, and the market ignored the bad games right back.

 

[Suicidal_Donuts]

Assuming the mod community for this game will grow enough so that we can have a PM 2...

>Brawl was released worldwide in early-mid 2008
>PM's first demo was released 2-8-11, almost three years later.
>PM got every character included by 3.0, which was released 12-9-13, almost another 3 years later.

If Sm4sh was released near the end of 2014, we could hopefully expect something between 2017 and 2018, assuming it'll take just as long. The music and skins thing seems to be a good start, now we just wait for everything else to be tampered with. This will take some time, but I'm excited nonetheless.

 

[Joaco]

let's make project brawl and add tripping back in

 

[Dhillz521]

let's make project brawl and add tripping back in

Whats wrong with Brawl?

 

[Iceweasel]

Whats wrong with Brawl?

Tripping.

 

[(Buddha)]

THATS IT! SOMEBODY GET THIS ON THE FRONTPAGE!

I really want to see Wailords model used with DDD now. Also, (Not a fan of Ridley) I would want to see Ridley's model sized down and put on Charizard.

 

[Champ Gold]

My major focus is stages, music and alternate costumes and skins.


Characters is something I rarely ever liked in hacked Smash games (including Brawl/PM). Unless it's bringing a veteran back or cloning a character, it rarely turns out well and there's a lot of jank involved with model and animations.


I'm insanely hyped for Music hacks and new costumes since it means the creativity can flow and stages can get remixes that they need

 

[Dhillz521]

Tripping.

Other then that?

 

[Iceweasel]

Other then that?

Nothing, except Smash 4 has better graphics and new characters and stages. Some of the hit angles are a bit weird and there are only 3-4 viable characters (assuming MK is banned, if not then it's one), but it's nothing that doesn't apply to Melee too. Other than that, my only real complaints are the hitstun cancelling shortening combos and the severe amount of jank, like DACUS, chaingrabs, and really all of Falco's playstyle. Still, I find Brawl to be quite enjoyable, especially Zero Suit. Brawl has a much more fun ZSS than Smash 4's Zero Skill Spamus.

 

[Kurri ★]

Smash 4's Zero Skill Spamus.

Yeah, sure, okay

 

[Dhillz521]

Holy ****

 

[sjb.dario]

If modding becomes a thing in Smash 4, I hope that they won't make a project M out of this. Some alternate costumes and voices would be nice (I miss the Brawl Falco's voice too much), but anything that completely changes the gameplay is meh.

 

[Iceweasel]

If modding becomes a thing in Smash 4, I hope that they won't make a project M out of this. Some alternate costumes and voices would be nice (I miss the Brawl Falco's voice too much), but anything that completely changes the gameplay is meh.

Well, I personally would like to see landing lag reduced across the board, and possibly more startup or endlag for airdodges. Buffs for the ultra low-tiers would be nice too. Even though I think Brawl is just fine as a competitive game (with aa no-trip mod, I think it's even better than Melee for competitive play), Smash 4 only needs minor adjustments to comply with most (non-stupid) fan requests, while Brawl required much more work. Not that I think the PMDT "fixed" Brawl, but they seemed to do a decent enough job at balancing it from what I hear.

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

I mean, I would definitely love a Melee-style mod for Smash 4 if one ever came out

 

[MrGame&Rock]

Instant unlocking of customs, easy setups for a customs meta. Removal of stage hazards on Port Town, Pyrosphere, Wily's, MKU, etc to increase the stagelist. Making Pit and Dank Pit actually different. Making the character select screen less ugly. Music hacks. Restoring Brawl's voicework to Fox and Falco. These kind of minor tweaks to Smash 4 is what makes me really hyped for a modding scene. Oh and the kind of "what ifs" that make MagicScrumpy so much fun to watch, applied to Smash 4.

 

[kantoskies]

Ever since I've started hacking Brawl I've come to realize that no matter how many custom textures I put in, it's still just an ugly game. It's also not that powerful (I put in maybe 30 custom songs and they glitch half the time). I feel like when Smash Wii U's hacking scene gets to the same level as Brawl's is now (U Box?) I'll really be able to enjoy myself. Melee menu sfx, custom stages, a better CSS and SSS screen, custom voice clips, custom costumes, I really can't wait.

 

[Iceweasel]

https://gbatemp.net/threads/wup-installer-title-installer-firmware-spoofing-5-3-2.397053/

We can spoof firmware now. The eShop won't make us update our Wii U anymore. This isn't selective updating, but it's the next best thing. I have no idea when this will be fixed, but for the moment you should be able to run anything on a Wii U.

 

[Rinku リンク]

There's no official guide on how to hack the Wii U yet is there?