Oh dear... The impossible has happened ! WARNING SPOILERS (Smash 4 is hackable)

[Kurri ★]

Till that happens competive players won't think about Smash 4.(But who cares they can't play causal smash anyway)

I think about Smash 4... I find myself to be competitive...

 

[Capybara Gaming]

All I want is an Ice Climbers model to be rendered in a 3-D modeling program so someone can 3-D Print it for an amiibo for me.

 

[allison]

What exactly is preventing Nintendo from patching this away almost immediately?

 

[Iceweasel]

It gets even better. You know how online is done? You send your inputs to the other person's Wii U. Meaning that all graphics and calculations are run locally. Where am I going with this?

Free DLC. Mad about how fan-favorite veterans are locked behind a paywall, when Sora KNEW the fans really wanted them? What about heavily-requested newcomers we've been asking for for years, like Isaac? How about returning stages like Dreamland? Ever feel ripped off, even a little, at being told you have to pay $60 up front, then having these things withheld from you until you pay more? Now we don't have to support these ****ty EA business practices. Power to the people, baby!

 

[allison]

It gets even better. You know how online is done? You send your inputs to the other person's Wii U. Meaning that all graphics and calculations are run locally. Where am I going with this?

Free DLC. Mad about how fan-favorite veterans are locked behind a paywall, when Sora KNEW the fans really wanted them? What about heavily-requested newcomers we've been asking for for years, like Isaac? How about returning stages like Dreamland? Ever feel ripped off, even a little, at being told you have to pay $60 up front, then having these things withheld from you until you pay more? Now we don't have to support these ****ty EA business practices. Power to the people, baby!

And now I'm convinced that Nintendo wants this patched.

And NONE of these characters were arbitrarily withheld, they were all completed after the game's release.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

It gets even better. You know how online is done? You send your inputs to the other person's Wii U. Meaning that all graphics and calculations are run locally. Where am I going with this?

Free DLC. Mad about how fan-favorite veterans are locked behind a paywall, when Sora KNEW the fans really wanted them? What about heavily-requested newcomers we've been asking for for years, like Isaac? How about returning stages like Dreamland? Ever feel ripped off, even a little, at being told you have to pay $60 up front, then having these things withheld from you until you pay more? Now we don't have to support these ****ty EA business practices. Power to the people, baby!

This is stealing.

 

[Iceweasel]

What exactly is preventing Nintendo from patching this away almost immediately?

Nothing, actually. It already has been, as of the latest system menu version (5.4.0). Oh, and my Wii U was patched without my knowledge or consent, and others have reported theirs being autopatched after deleting their Wi-Fi information, implying that the Wii U secretly keeps said information to do these updates.

And now I'm convinced that Nintendo wants this patched.

And NONE of these characters were arbitrarily withheld, they were all completed after the game's release.

It doesn't change the fact that you're being sold something "extra" that should have been included with the main game. If this DLC turns out to be a big success, what's stopping Smash 5 from including less characters at launch, but having them sold back to you as DLC? How mad would you be if Captain Falcon was cut because there haven't been any F-Zero games in a long time, but was then sold as DLC? What about Samus? Metroid's future is a little uncertain now, what's keeping her from being cut, then being "brought back" as was secretly intended, as another fighter you have to pay extra for? $60 is a lot of money, don't you think it's incredibly anti-consumer when a company says "Yeah, we know you really wanted this character/stage/feature brought back, and we know you paid a lot of money for this, so give us more or you can't have it"?

This is stealing.

No it's not. If I steal your car, you don't have a car. If I make a copy of your car, you still have a car. The concept of theft is based on the economic concept of scarcity, which doesn't apply to computer data that can be endlessly copied without degradation.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Nothing, actually. It already has been, as of the latest system menu version (5.4.0). Oh, and my Wii U was patched without my knowledge or consent, and others have reported theirs being autopatched after deleting their Wi-Fi information, implying that the Wii U secretly keeps said information to do these updates.



It doesn't change the fact that you're being sold something "extra" that should have been included with the main game. If this DLC turns out to be a big success, what's stopping Smash 5 from including less characters at launch, but having them sold back to you as DLC? How mad would you be if Captain Falcon was cut because there haven't been any F-Zero games in a long time, but was then sold as DLC? What about Samus? Metroid's future is a little uncertain now, what's keeping her from being cut, then being "brought back" as was secretly intended, as another fighter you have to pay extra for? $60 is a lot of money, don't you think it's incredibly anti-consumer when a company says "Yeah, we know you really wanted this character/stage/feature brought back, and we know you paid a lot of money for this, so give us more or you can't have it"?



No it's not. If I steal your car, you don't have a car. If I make a copy of your car, you still have a car. The concept of theft is based on the economic concept of scarcity, which doesn't apply to computer data that can be endlessly copied without degradation.

Not exactly. This is copying copyrighted data and distributing it. It is illegal. The car comparison doesn't work because you made the car. Even if it was based on another already existing car. It's your work. Distrubuting Ryu is copying and pasting someone else's work qithout giving them money try asked for. It's stealing and always will be.

 

[kantoskies]

Now we don't have to support these ****ty EA business practices. Power to the people, baby!

It's way different than what companies like EA do. They leave content on the disc locked only to be unlocked later for unreasonably high prices. They release unfinished games and make people pay extra to have them be finished. While Smash Wii U is definitely content-light it is by no means unfinished--there were like 49 characters in the base game, most veterans were given a much bigger overhaul than they were in the transition from Melee > Brawl in terms of moves/animations, the game looks fantastic, 8-Player multiplayer is now a thing, each character has custom moves, and the new music we got was up to the same standards that it has been for the previous two games. While some of these things may be more or less appealing to you than other people, and there may be characters/stages that you feel should have been in the game, Sakurai/the team worked really hard and they put in as much as they could given their restrictions (keep in mind they made two versions of the game on two systems).

Had they wanted to they could have just released the base game and said that's that, but they've decided to go the extra mile and release extra content for the game, partially based off fan-favorite stuff (Mewtwo, Lucas, Roy, the 64 stages). And really, especially compared to some other DLC prices set by other companies, the prices for the Smash DLC (as well as most if not all of Nintendo's paid DLC) are pretty fair.

 

[Iceweasel]

Not exactly. This is copying copyrighted data and distributing it. It is illegal. The car comparison doesn't work because you made the car. Even if it was based on another already existing car. It's your work. Distrubuting Ryu is copying and pasting someone else's work qithout giving them money try asked for. It's stealing and always will be.

Whether it's illegal or not has yet to be decided. The data is already distributed to me, and every other person with an up-to-date copy of Smash Bros., all I'm missing is a numerical string, like a password, to unlock it. Or it could possibly be even easier, needing something like a simple flipped bit on my save file.

You could argue that the car thing is illegal too, since it could contain parts that are still patented. Regardless of whether it's illegal or not, hardline anti-copyright stances only apply if you think of the world in absolutes. The ability to get free DLC could sell many people a copy of Smash Bros. or a Wii U if they only wanted to play as a certain character. Heck, I've bought several games I'd have never otherwise touched because I could check it out on the Pirate Bay and other websites first.

Free stuff does not equate to a loss of sales, because there's no guarantee someone would have bought it anyways. The funny thing about it is, several studies have found that the people who are most likely to buy media, whether it's music, movies, or games, are also those most likely to look for free methods to obtain it. This implies that either, A), most heavy consumers of media are enthusiasts, and are still looking for more of their favorite stuff after all of their monthly disposable income is used up, and/or B), in combination with other studies that found that blocking of websites like The Pirate Bay had little to no impact on sales of music/movies/games, that some amount of piracy (though it's a stretch to call unlocking content already placed on your machine "piracy") is, to some extent, good for sales.

 

[Kurri ★]

It gets even better. You know how online is done? You send your inputs to the other person's Wii U. Meaning that all graphics and calculations are run locally. Where am I going with this?

Free DLC. Mad about how fan-favorite veterans are locked behind a paywall, when Sora KNEW the fans really wanted them? What about heavily-requested newcomers we've been asking for for years, like Isaac? How about returning stages like Dreamland? Ever feel ripped off, even a little, at being told you have to pay $60 up front, then having these things withheld from you until you pay more? Now we don't have to support these ****ty EA business practices. Power to the people, baby!

Oh, you're one of those guys who thinks DLC is some evil entity bent on destroying gaming and the world as we know it...

 

[Shog]

...

So if that's fine to you you wouldn't mind if I report this to Nintendo, right?

Main reasons why making games for profit is not fun...

 

[Spazzy_D]

Whether it's illegal or not has yet to be decided. The data is already distributed to me, and every other person with an up-to-date copy of Smash Bros., all I'm missing is a numerical string, like a password, to unlock it. Or it could possibly be even easier, needing something like a simple flipped bit on my save file.

You could argue that the car thing is illegal too, since it could contain parts that are still patented. Regardless of whether it's illegal or not, hardline anti-copyright stances only apply if you think of the world in absolutes. The ability to get free DLC could sell many people a copy of Smash Bros. or a Wii U if they only wanted to play as a certain character. Heck, I've bought several games I'd have never otherwise touched because I could check it out on the Pirate Bay and other websites first.

Free stuff does not equate to a loss of sales, because there's no guarantee someone would have bought it anyways. The funny thing about it is, several studies have found that the people who are most likely to buy media, whether it's music, movies, or games, are also those most likely to look for free methods to obtain it. This implies that either, A), most heavy consumers of media are enthusiasts, and are still looking for more of their favorite stuff after all of their monthly disposable income is used up, and/or B), in combination with other studies that found that blocking of websites like The Pirate Bay had little to no impact on sales of music/movies/games, that some amount of piracy (though it's a stretch to call unlocking content already placed on your machine "piracy") is, to some extent, good for sales.

You're the reason we can't have nice things.

 

[allison]

$60 is a lot of money, don't you think it's incredibly anti-consumer when a company says "Yeah, we know you really wanted this character/stage/feature brought back, and we know you paid a lot of money for this, so give us more or you can't have it"?

The attitude I'm getting from this is that buying something online is a ripoff because it's not a physical item.

What you're paying for is the time and money the developers poured into the content. Pirating this tells them to either not bother or (more likely) implement increasingly restrictive DRM practices. We've been through this song and dance before.

Furthermore, of course arbitrarily withholding content would be bad, but that clearly isn't what Nintendo is doing. Every single DLC item was finished after both games released, and all but Mewtwo had work started on them afterwards as well. You're assuming that we're on a guaranteed slippery slope to draconian policies like locking essential content behind paywalls, but so far Nintendo's been extremely reasonable with their DLC content.

 

[Iceweasel]

The attitude I'm getting from this is that buying something online is a ripoff because it's not a physical item.

Not really what I was saying, but I do have problems with digital-only purchase options. Those are more related to questions like, "Who actually owns this game?" (answer: not you) and "What will happen when the service stops being offered?" (answer: You'll probably lose your games).

What you're paying for is the time and money the developers poured into the content. Pirating this tells them to either not bother or (more likely) implement increasingly restrictive DRM practices. We've been through this song and dance before.

That's what the vast majority of any price on a piece of new technology is - R&D. This is not news to anyone.

I'm not sure how you could possibly implement more restrictive DRM without completely alienating your consumer base, like what Microsoft did with the XBone. Even though they changed their mind, they still put a lot of people off buying their console. It's pointless anyways, all DRM does is delay the inevitable. I could write a long, drawn-out post on why all DRM can and will be cracked, but that'd be going way off on a tangent.

Furthermore, of course arbitrarily withholding content would be bad, but that clearly isn't what Nintendo is doing. Every single DLC item was finished after both games released, and all but Mewtwo had work started on them afterwards as well. You're assuming that we're on a guaranteed slippery slope to draconian policies like locking essential content behind paywalls, but so far Nintendo's been extremely reasonable with their DLC content.

In a sense, I've been completely correct the whole time. Sora and Nintendo knew that Roy and Mewtwo were some of the most missed characters in Brawl, but they decided not to bring them back for Smash 4 - At least, not as part of the game you pay for at the register. I expect Isaac will get the same treatment, even though he was heavily requested for Brawl and there was much gnashing of teeth that he was left out. Leaving out characters like Isaac and King K. Rool, among others, shows either incompetence (Smash team not knowing what the fans wanted) or malice (fleecing fans through DLC to make a quick buck).

Not only that, but all Smash DLC is being withheld from you. They're all downloaded as part of the update data, so you don't immediately desync (or worse, crash) when someone selects it online. We've seen DLC go from genuine extra content to locking away massive amounts of content, some of even on the disk you physically own, behind a paywall. Nintendo has known financial difficulties, and it's not unreasonable to assume that they could possibly try to use EA tactics to help alleviate them. Given some of the choices they've made regarding what becomes DLC, it's not like I don't have reason to believe that they might be using EA tactics.

 

[Shog]

Iceweasel, I agree with the whole "No Service, you can't play anymore" Fiasko
but to be fair, not giving the developer money for their work (and we have to admit, the Characters/Stages are fine work indeed!) is not a great solution either :/

What would you do? Don't forget that creating games nowadays needs way more resources, too!

 

[Kurri ★]

I see words, but all I read is "DLC is bad because reasons."

Also, you never actually owned your games, even physical copies. It's all being licensed to you.

 

[Iceweasel]

Also, you never actually owned your games, even physical copies. It's all being licensed to you.

Yes and no. There was some court decision about that, I forget which one it was (it had something to do with reselling software, I think), that said something to the effect of "You can resell your disk with the software on it [which implies some form of ownership], but not the program [huh?]". Contradictions aside, used game stores are still open, implying that the owner of the disk holds some amount of power. Also, mods are legal (Lewis Galoob Toys, Inc. v Nintendo of America, Inc. and Micro Star v. FormGen, Inc.), so clearly the word "license" is not some word you can use to stop anyone from doing anything you don't like.

Not to mention that the whole "This software is not sold to you, but licensed" argument sounds a lot like something you can only find out about from reading a EULA, which have not always been ruled enforceable, under the doctrine of unconscionably and supposed violations of the Universal Commercial Code.



Legal arguments aside, it doesn't change the fact that nobody can tell me how I can or can't play my disk games. If Nintendo is afraid that something in one of their games will harm their image, they can either perform an Orwellian retcon with a patch or even completely disable the game. In fact, they've already done this, with Swapnote. When I play Xenogears, I can be 100% sure that the game will not only work, but be exactly as it was the day I got it, as long as I keep the disks in good condition. Even if I somehow were to break them, I have backups I can use so that I can still play my game. Whether it's legal or not (I'm fairly certain it is, for PS1 at least, for a variety of reasons relating to Sony 's lawsuit against Bleem) is irrelevant, because nobody can stop me from doing it. It's mine, I physically possess it, and I can use it to do whatever I want, including shoving it in my computer and having IMGBurn go to work on it.


But this was way off topic. Back to the prior discussion, DLC is Pandora's Box. It was used to provide genuine extra content in the late '90s and early 2000s, but its potential to nickel and dime consumers has been realized. The monsters will not go back into the box until we refuse to pay money for this ****. These companies have become too big to be harmed by bad PR, so the only way we can take back gaming is by refusing to reward them for reaming us.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

anyone kno0w how to unlock FALCO? i view this on youtube.

Wrong thread bud.

 

[JBRPG]

I do appreciate about the SSB4 being hack-able and that we are legally entitled the license to modify our software, I think it would be better to focus on hopes and dreams on the potential of Smash 4 mods

 

[Khao]

@ Iceweasel

I'd get your point if we were talking about other cases, such as retail-exclusive nonsense, exclusive bonus content out of preordering, or day-one, on-disk DLC.

But Smash was released with more or less 50 playable characters out of the box, which is a jump in content that's higher than a lot of people expected, and the new, downloadable ones were all developed and distributed after the game was complete. I would actually agree that the new content is overpriced when comparing their price to that of the base game, but DLC did not hold back the initial release no matter how you put it. At this point, all your criticisms are based on what-if scenarios, I mean, really, you're basically saying that DLC is inherently bad because it might negatively affect Smash 5, and that has absolutely nothing to do with what's happening in this game. And I fail to see how anything in the picture you showed is related to anything happen to this game, basically nothing in that image applies.

Honestly? I wouldn't think less of you for pirating game content, I wouldn't even stop you from doing so if I somehow could, (I'd be a hypocrite if I did, since I actually do it myself from time to time with a few AAA games), but acting as if your piracy is justified, or that you deserve free entertainment, or even that what you're doing is legal? That's just ridiculous. I don't think piracy is immoral in many cases, but in absolutely no case is it either legal, or your right.

 

[ZeekLTK]

It's all about whether people feel like they are being taken advantage of or price gouged or whatever. If they feel like they are, then they will find ways around it. If they don't feel that way, then they are much more likely to just take the "legal" route.

Like music - most people will happily buy a song for $0.99. Piracy became a big thing back when Napster was created and whatnot because that wasn't an option. The only way to get a song was to buy the full album for like $20. Most people felt that was unreasonable, they weren't willing to pay that, so they found alternative ways to acquire what they wanted.

DLC is going the same route. If people feel like it's a rip-off, they will find other ways to get it. People keep pointing out that the original game came with 50 characters. Okay, so for $60 you got 50 characters - that's about $1.20/character (assuming everything else in the game comes attached for free - if you really want to nit pick and factor in the stages, modes of gameplay, etc. then you're really only paying like $0.40 per character or something like that).

So Nintendo releases DLC charging like $4 or $5 per character - that's a significant increase compared to the base price. Therefore, it's not surprising to see people trying to find ways to get around that. Charge like $0.99 a character or do a full bundle for like $5 (all new characters + the new levels) and people will be much more likely to just acquire it the "legal" way.


*Edit: Let's use Mario Kart 8 as an example. The base game comes with 30 characters (counting Mii as 1 character) and 32 stages. At $60, you are essentially paying $1/character and $0.94/stage.

Each individual DLC includes 3 characters and 8 race tracks. That is essentially a $10.50 value, and they are only charging $7.99 for it (or $11.99 for both, which would theoretically be worth $21). That's a good deal - and that's why no one is looking into trying to "hack" Mario Kart to open these new things when it is perfectly reasonable to just pay for them. Unfortunately, SSB4 is not being treated the same. $3.99 for just one character is a ripoff when you consider that all of the base characters essentially cost about $0.60 or whatever the actual figure would be.

 

[Shog]

[...]

This is very reasonable the way you see it.
However in the case of Smashbros, due to the nature of the game and contentwise, buying the ORIGINAL Game for 80$ wouldn't feel like a RIP OFF

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

YES. I hope to god someone digs into this game and fixes all its issues. Project M 2 pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!


also... off topic, but can someone direct me somewhere where i can find out about mario kart hacking? I'd like to make some changes/add some hacks if theyre available to the public, but no idea where to go or how to do it.

 

[Dhillz521]

It gets even better. You know how online is done? You send your inputs to the other person's Wii U. Meaning that all graphics and calculations are run locally. Where am I going with this?

Free DLC. Mad about how fan-favorite veterans are locked behind a paywall, when Sora KNEW the fans really wanted them? What about heavily-requested newcomers we've been asking for for years, like Isaac? How about returning stages like Dreamland? Ever feel ripped off, even a little, at being told you have to pay $60 up front, then having these things withheld from you until you pay more? Now we don't have to support these ****ty EA business practices. Power to the people, baby!

Does this have anything to do with Wii U modding. Thanks to you this is now a DLC /Fighter Rant thread.
Oh and guys thanks to SOMEONE lets kinda stop this little rant and Make this a Moding only thread only Okay?

YES. I hope to god someone digs into this game and fixes all its issues. Project M 2 pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!


also... off topic, but can someone direct me somewhere where i can find out about mario kart hacking? I'd like to make some changes/add some hacks if theyre available to the public, but no idea where to go or how to do it.

http://wiki.tockdom.com/wiki/Main_Page this has tons to do with MKWii and MK8 moding

 

[Dhillz521]

I think about Smash 4... I find myself to be competitive...

I mean the people who must play melee

 

[Chiroz]

Nothing, actually. It already has been, as of the latest system menu version (5.4.0). Oh, and my Wii U was patched without my knowledge or consent, and others have reported theirs being autopatched after deleting their Wi-Fi information, implying that the Wii U secretly keeps said information to do these updates.



It doesn't change the fact that you're being sold something "extra" that should have been included with the main game. If this DLC turns out to be a big success, what's stopping Smash 5 from including less characters at launch, but having them sold back to you as DLC? How mad would you be if Captain Falcon was cut because there haven't been any F-Zero games in a long time, but was then sold as DLC? What about Samus? Metroid's future is a little uncertain now, what's keeping her from being cut, then being "brought back" as was secretly intended, as another fighter you have to pay extra for? $60 is a lot of money, don't you think it's incredibly anti-consumer when a company says "Yeah, we know you really wanted this character/stage/feature brought back, and we know you paid a lot of money for this, so give us more or you can't have it"?



No it's not. If I steal your car, you don't have a car. If I make a copy of your car, you still have a car. The concept of theft is based on the economic concept of scarcity, which doesn't apply to computer data that can be endlessly copied without degradation.

By this logic then teachers, scientists, economists, writers, artists, ANY JOB that does not involve constructing something physical should NOT receive any kind of compensation and everyone should work for free. But then how would you be able to pay for the physical stuff you actually own if over half the jobs in the world don't get paid?

The fact that you don't understand that 100+ people worked for 6+ months on the DLC chars and that they need to get paid, plus you need to pay the equipment, software used, electricity, building space, running water, etc for 6+ months means you still have no idea how the real world works and you need to grow up before you make such big assumptions. You think software just spontaneously comes into creation?

Or do you you think that a huge group of people should work for 6 months and that a whole immense group of people should pay the expenses for the bare necessities of the first group of people just to give you something for free. And apparently you think you deserve it. How ****ing entitled do you think you are? You aren't the king of the world but you are acting like a tyrant.



If you're going to download it because the tool is there, fine, do it. Everyone does it from time to time. But don't act like you deserve it or like it's a righteous action, because it's not.

 

[Mizzy Moe]

Spoiler

By this logic then teachers, scientists, economists, writers, artists, ANY JOB that does not involve constructing something physical should NOT receive any kind of compensation and everyone should work for free. But then how would you be able to pay for the physical stuff you actually own if over half the jobs in the world don't get paid?

The fact that you don't understand that 100+ people worked for 6+ months on the DLC chars and that they need to get paid, plus you need to pay the equipment, software used, electricity, building space, running water, etc for 6+ months means you still have no idea how the real world works and you need to grow up before you make such big assumptions. You think software just spontaneously comes into creation?

Or do you you think that a huge group of people should work for 6 months and that a whole immense group of people should pay the expenses for the bare necessities of the first group of people just to give you something for free. And apparently you think you deserve it. How ****ing entitled do you think you are? You aren't the king of the world but you are acting like a tyrant.



If you're going to download it because the tool is there, fine, do it. Everyone does it from time to time. But don't act like you deserve it or like it's a righteous action, because it's not.

^^ this we've all pirated that one movie you wanted to see but never actually went to the movies so you just watched it at home or played that game ect. it dont matter like op said lets all just drop it

on topic though.
im extremely excited to see what could come of this i feel like the possibilitys are huge :D

 

[Iceweasel]

By this logic then teachers, scientists, economists, writers, artists, ANY JOB that does not involve constructing something physical should NOT receive any kind of compensation and everyone should work for free. But then how would you be able to pay for the physical stuff you actually own if over half the jobs in the world don't get paid?

The fact that you don't understand that 100+ people worked for 6+ months on the DLC chars and that they need to get paid, plus you need to pay the equipment, software used, electricity, building space, running water, etc for 6+ months means you still have no idea how the real world works and you need to grow up before you make such big assumptions. You think software just spontaneously comes into creation?

Or do you you think that a huge group of people should work for 6 months and that a whole immense group of people should pay the expenses for the bare necessities of the first group of people just to give you something for free. And apparently you think you deserve it. How ****ing entitled do you think you are? You aren't the king of the world but you are acting like a tyrant.



If you're going to download it because the tool is there, fine, do it. Everyone does it from time to time. But don't act like you deserve it or like it's a righteous action, because it's not.

Congrats on deliberately misconstruing my argument. Never seen that before in a debate like this. The problem with the DLC characters (except Ryu) and stages was that they should have been included in the main game. Every one of them (again, except Ryu) is both a veteran and either a clone or known to have been worked on before completion of the game. There's no reason they couldn't have shipped with the game except "lol give us more money".

 

[Luggy]

The problem with the DLC characters (except Ryu) and stages was that they should have been included in the main game. Every one of them (again, except Ryu) is both a veteran and either a clone or known to have been worked on before completion of the game. There's no reason they couldn't have shipped with the game except "lol give us more money".

Here's something you maybe forgot (I haven't read the whole debate, sorry) : time constraint.

Smash needed to be up for around October and mostly Christmas. They don't have a lot of time, so they put priorities to each character, so that they could have a good looking roster, even without the characters that were planned, but couldn't be in. Now, you could rebut this argument by using the clones as a counter. But remember, at one point, Sakurai and his team had a little bit more time. But enough to add big characters like Lucas our Roy, and definitely not Ryu or Mewtwo. Instead, they made 3 simple clones to fill the gaps. Easy to do, fast to make, the more the merrier.

After the game was released, Sakurai could finally add the other characters that couldn't get in the game in time. Thus, they added Mewtwo as a little test, to see if people were accepting DLCs. Of course, it work out perfectly, and Sakurai with his team could finally add more characters, even the ones that would have took too much time in developpement, like Ryu.

All and all, I think the DLCs are not just for money. They are just additional characters that were in developpement, but couldn't get in. It's also for the fans, who are willing to spend money on their favorite character.
Should they have been included in the main game ? Yes. But they are not just for money.

If anything, the Mii costumes are more here for money than anything else. They could have been in the game right away, it's just a model you add on another model. If you were arguing on those DLCs only, I would have understood. But on the characters and stages, there's no real reason to argue.

Feel free to disagree. Those are just opinions.

________________________________________________________________________________________________
​

Anyway, we should focus on the main subject. This isn't a place to debate on DLCs afterall, but more about the uncertain future of hacking Smash 4. Right now, there's even more openings, but they are quickly fixed by Nintendo, for good reasons. I still think we won't see a hacked mod of the game until Nintendo stops the Wii U, thus the updates and all that stuff. Maybe near 2020, we could see the first version of a "Project M" style of mod for the game, but not in the near future.

I'm repeating myself, but whatever.

 

[Chiroz]

Congrats on deliberately misconstruing my argument. Never seen that before in a debate like this. The problem with the DLC characters (except Ryu) and stages was that they should have been included in the main game. Every one of them (again, except Ryu) is both a veteran and either a clone or known to have been worked on before completion of the game. There's no reason they couldn't have shipped with the game except "lol give us more money".

Here's something you don't realize, the game had been in development almost 3 years when released. That's more than any of the other Smash games. If you included the DLC chars right off the bat then it would have released around February as soonest as possible.

Since companies want to maximize their earnings plus their ratings then they would have scheduled the game back to be released at a time when it would do it's best, say September or Holidays.

This means we wouldn't even be playing the game yet. I am happy to have given out 16 bucks for 4 fighters and a stage instead of waiting a full year to play the game.

Considering most people payed 10-20 bucks for a 7 day DEMO I can assure you most people are happy they are able to play the game a full year earlier even if it costs then 16-20 bucks extra.



Once again you demonstrate you don't understand how the real world works and you seem to think it should work in accordance to what suits your own needs.



Edit: Also just going to throw this out there. Triple A games normally take 2-3 years to make, almost no game has lasted 4 years in development. So if you think they "half-assed" the development to charge you more you should look into the game development cycle and understand that they actually lasted a long time developing the main game, longer than usual even for a game of that caliber.

People like you are LITERALLY the reason Nintendo and Sakurai don't like to do DLC.

 

[Shog]

People like you are LITERALLY the reason Nintendo and Sakurai don't like to do DLC.

Can I summon you in future debates about DLC?

On-Topic:

I am curious about something else: Didn't people started hacking Mario Kart 8 earlier? I mean you have to modify the Wii U itself in the first place if I am not mistaken

 

[Chiroz]

Can I summon you in future debates about DLC?

On-Topic:

I am curious about something else: Didn't people started hacking Mario Kart 8 earlier? I mean you have to modify the Wii U itself in the first place if I am not mistaken

Sure, I don't mind.

 

[Kenith]

Everyone should install a mod to unlock all custom moves. Everyone.

 

[Chiroz]

Everyone should install a mod to unlock all custom moves. Everyone.

In all honesty I think customs will die down immensely in popularity as soon as EVO ends. I might be wrong though.

 

[Kurri ★]

In all honesty I think customs will die down immensely in popularity as soon as EVO ends. I might be wrong though.

I don't want them to (mains Palu) but with the lack of balancing customs and DLC characters not having them, I don't see them staying in popularity.

Then again, maybe mods can change that...

 

[MrGame&Rock]

There are three things I am really excited about with the prospect of modding:

1. instantly unlock all custom moves and create equipment from scratch. Makes customs on tourneys so much easier to prepare for and maybe, just maybe, it could allow Smooth Lander to be part of our tourney scene without any changes to stats. Both of those are HUGE
2. Music hacks. Not so much adding your own favorite songs, but reassigning music from stages we'll never play on to good stages. I love the new remixes on Palutena's Temple and GCO and Mario Circuit 8, and if we could transplant those songs onto stages we all love but have mediocre songs like Smashville or T&C then Smashing would be so much more fun. Let's unite and, as a competitive community, do something good for this game's composers.
3. The ability to rearrange the character select screen/stage select screen. Right now, especially with all five DLC characters, it looks like ****. With modding we could very easily solve that problem. As for stages, we could have the top 2-3 rows be for legal stages for the sake of convenience.

These are all small things but the potential is amazing. We could also mod stages, replace Big Battlefield with Meta Crystal from SSB64, but Im not as excited about that because it would actually affect gameplay in a substantial way.

 

[Graminthesalmon]

I hope this comes to fruition. Maybe we can get some sweet HD stages and maybe Ice Climbers and Snake can make a triumphant return even though Nintendo probably does want them back.

 

[Iceweasel]

@ Chiroz If you're willing to pay extra for things that should have been part of the main game, you're part of the problem. You're saying that it's okay to gyp you, and in fact they'll make more money from doing so.

Releasing Sm4sh close to December can't make a major impact on sales. It's one of those games that are going to be sold new throughout the system's life span, because people keep buying it. I can go down to Wal-Mart and find new copies of Brawl. They don't have them because they didn't sell, they have them because they kept reordering it throughout the Wii's life cycle.

I had always heard that a game went from concept to release in about 4 years. Can you cite your source that few games are made in longer than 3 years?

People like you are LITERALLY the reason Nintendo and Sakurai don't like to do DLC.

Good. There's too much potential for abuse and a metric ****ton of actual abuse of the system. By rejecting DLC, we might finally go back to a gaming world where you bought a game and got a satisfying experience in and of itself. Remember when there was actual effort put into the game? Companies tried to convince consumers to buy their games over their competitors' by trying to make the best possible game they could. These days, who cares? Just shove some crap down their throats, then when they complain about lack of challenge mode/bonus missions/sidequests/other vidya stuff, throw some DLC at them. Bonus points if it was something that was going to be in the game originally, but got cut to avoid delays. Did you know that every game made today can have its sales predicted rather accurately? Companies like Ubisoft are good at this, because they want a certain number to show up for a certain quarter, either to satisfy the stockholders or for tax reasons. Let me repeat that, the quality of the games you buy have been reduced, had features cut, rushed to market, whatever you want to call it, because some CEO wants to impress some stockholders or some jackoff in accounting thinks they can save a couple extra bucks on their taxes. What happens to the stuff that got removed or not finished? It gets sold back to you, for extra money, as DLC.


"A delayed game is eventually good, a bad game is bad forever" - Shigeru Miyamoto

 

[Iceweasel]

@ MrGame&Rock

Bruh, music hacks would be my jam. But why would you change the music for Smashville? There's only 1 song you'd ever want to play on that stage, and no reason to select another: Go KK Rider. In fact, let's make ALL the music Go KK Rider! Menu theme? Go KK Rider! Victory theme? Go KK Rider! Every sound effect? Go KK Rider! As much as I love the music and sound design for Smash 4, it can't be denied that making everything you hear become Go KK Rider would vastly improve the game.


In fact, why not make all the textures Go KK Rider? There has to be some way to force the game to interpret a sound file as an image file. If not, there's probably some way we could convert it with a computer.

Why stop at textures? Let's use the same process to make all models Go KK Rider! And when we're done with that, let's find some way to turn the whole game's code into Go KK Rider!

It seems like we'd be on too much of a roll to stop there, but I'm having a hard time thinking of ways to make the game more Go KK Rider after literally making the whole game Go KK Rider. As a community, we need to put out heads together and work this conundrum out.