Official Standard Custom Moveset Project: Meta Knight

[meleebrawler]

You really only need Shuttle Loop for recovering. Absurdly fast to snap while also often poking those
who stand too close, this coupled with MKs five jumps makes him very hard to hit offstage. His other specials
are really just rare mixups in that scenario, even back in Brawl (except Tornado which beat everything).
And if you still don't think his recovery is good enough, you can take Lazy Shuttle Loop, if you don't mind
losing his most potent finisher.

There are only two real reasons to want angling in drill: 1. You tried to use it as raw approach and need
to drive into the ground to bounce away, and 2. to potentially get more hits, which isn't that enticing since
all the drills deal rather poor damage.

Also important: being "low tier" in this game is nowhere near as bad as in previous games.
A character doesn't really become worse with the advent of customs, the gaps between those
lower just get smaller. And in general, the gaps between characters in this game is much smaller.

 

[SleuthMechanism]

Then uh.. don't SD? That's like saying fox was bad because of it being possible tovershoot with fox illusion or saying sheiks grenade is bad because you can accidentally iput it and go into freefall because of it. It's also not like default drill does MK much favors either since it's generally very unsafe, the extra damage on it is negligible since it still does crap damage, and for recovery mk's 6 jumps, dimension cape,and shuttle loop are usually better options anyway and even then HSD is arguably better for recovery too since it's fast enough to be able to actively punish some onstage edge guard attempts on reaction.

 

[W.A.C.]

I've mostly been using Shield Breaker Drill because I find it a much safer move than the other two drills. Found out recently that move sucks against Sonic though. lol

 

[SleuthMechanism]

Share what you have found good about sheildbreaker drill and why you find it safe. I am very interested in that move's potential too. also, pretty much everything mk does sucks against sonic lol. It's one of the most painful matchups in the game IMO.

 

[W.A.C.]

Shieldbreaker Drill can force players into bad situations where either they have to let go of their shield and take the damage, or let their shield shrink and possibly break. Using that move can be a great choice after already applying some shield damage so the damage is more likely to obliterate the shield or force your opponent to take the damage. While it does less damage than the standard drill, I'd say it does a decent damage overall with decent knockback. The fact it doesn't go as far also makes it safer to use near the ledge than the standard drill because you're unlikely to need to go up as much, which can make it easier to avoid a punishment. Plus after drilling on stage, if you land on the tip of the edge, then go to the ledge, you're in a situation that has some decent safety. I find the Shieldbreaker Drill more useful and safer than the standard drill, plus much of what can be done with the standard drill also works with the Shieldbreaker Drill, though with less distance. However, you're probably better off using a different drill against Sonic since he's super fast and Sonic players typically don't shield a whole lot.

 

[SleuthMechanism]

Finally unlocked entangling tornado. Eh, it's alright and has it's uses but i still like default tornado more. That said, i agree that 2211 should totally be a set on the list even though i wouldn't personally use it.

 

[warionumbah2]

Well that's just lovely. I absolutely hate that move because you can't angle it and won't grab onto a ledge unless you get that last hit in. The latter applies to the other drills, but it's a far bigger issue with HSD because you can't angle it.

Then don't aim for the ledge, the things you find bad are things you yourself is doing. Its like mach tornado, people won't find this move good unless they know how to use it. js but not using HSD will lead to harder MUs and potentially more loses.

Meta Knight has a ton of disadvantages in this game largely because of poor range, much of his free fall states don't allow him to grab onto ledges, a lot of his moves have way less priority than they did in Brawl, and all of his special moves are very punishable if you screw up.

His special moves have high reward and high risk, disjointed hitboxes will always be a thing so he invalidates alot of nairs when comboing. Honestly. free fall animation not ledge snapping is your legit reason as to why he ain't good? Only legit thing in this post is his range, work around MK not ledge snapping and most importantantly stop SDing.

If he had good range and all of his free fall states allowed him to grab onto the ledge, he would be a considerably better character.

No it wouldn't, it would only help you since you love to SD. This is the first time i've seen a MK user complain about something so ludicrous. Non of the best MKs SD in silly ways. Anyway what you said is incorrect, if he had range,lagless aerials he would be insane.

He apparently has 2 projectile moves in his games(the ones made by Sakuwhy).

But with all of his issues and the fact his custom moves are underwhelming while many other lower tier characters get considerably better with custom moves, he's probably a low tier character with customs enabled.

Alot of MUs don't change at all, HSD as i've been saying for a while tips alot of MU's in our favor unlike Shieldbreaker drill. But from your point of view he sucks because YOU KEEP SDING, any character will look low tier if you kill yourself.

What sucks is the fact a lot of his free fall states don't allow him to grab onto the ledge significantly reduces his off stage potential and just makes a lot of moves way riskier than they should be.

Then get good, high risk high reward. If you land shuttle loop you get nice damage and kills, miss you get punished,same with DC, tornado pokes shields and deals 23% miss? get punished.

This ledge snap thing seems a bit dumb, only free fall i do to the ledge is the shuttle loop one. This isn't even a legit reason to bring him down so low, you never spoke about MUs or anything relevant other than range.

Ito successfully gimped a Rosalina despite his low off stage potential. I can't believe alot of what you're saying after seeing and playing good MKs.

 

[W.A.C.]

Then don't aim for the ledge, the things you find bad are things you yourself is doing. Its like mach tornado, people won't find this move good unless they know how to use it. js but not using HSD will lead to harder MUs and potentially more loses.

His special moves have high reward and high risk, disjointed hitboxes will always be a thing so he invalidates alot of nairs when comboing. Honestly. free fall animation not ledge snapping is your legit reason as to why he ain't good? Only legit thing in this post is his range, work around MK not ledge snapping and most importantantly stop SDing.

No it wouldn't, it would only help you since you love to SD. This is the first time i've seen a MK user complain about something so ludicrous. Non of the best MKs SD in silly ways. Anyway what you said is incorrect, if he had range,lagless aerials he would be insane.

He apparently has 2 projectile moves in his games(the ones made by Sakuwhy).

I think Meta Knight is good in this game, but not great. Granted, I don't view anyone as bad in this game (except maybe Mii Swordfighter), but if those two flaws Meta Knight has were modified, I would view him as a great character. Even great Meta Knights like Ito and Katakiri SD with Meta Knight. At a recent tournament, Ito SD'd on Halberd because he couldn't grab the ledge after using tornado and there's been one or two instances I've seen him SD with his down special. Katakiri mentioned he doesn't like using HSD partially because it's easy to accidentally SD with it. I don't enjoy using HSD, but I'll be practicing it in the future largely for matchups where Meta Knight struggles (like Sonic and Captain Falcon). Regarding projectiles, would've been cool if they got more creative with his custom moves and gave him a projectile for one of them. Though I never felt he was a character that needed it.

Alot of MUs don't change at all, HSD as i've been saying for a while tips alot of MU's in our favor unlike Shieldbreaker drill. But from your point of view he sucks because YOU KEEP SDING, any character will look low tier if you kill yourself.

WHERE DID I SAY HE SUCKS? I actually don't SD with him very often (unless I'm using HSD) largely because I've gotten used to the unfortunate limitations he has with ledges in this game.

Then get good, high risk high reward. If you land shuttle loop you get nice damage and kills, miss you get punished,same with DC, tornado pokes shields and deals 23% miss? get punished.

This ledge snap thing seems a bit dumb, only free fall i do to the ledge is the shuttle loop one. This isn't even a legit reason to bring him down so low, you never spoke about MUs or anything relevant other than range.

Ito successfully gimped a Rosalina despite his low off stage potential. I can't believe alot of what you're saying after seeing and playing good MKs.

Meta Knight clearly has issues in this game and Ito used to be so frustrated with Meta Knight's limitations that he dropped the character for awhile. Meta Knight has nightmate matchups in this game (like Diddy Kong, Sonic, and Captain Falcon) that are extremely difficult matchups against very competent players and his flaws (range and the fact a lot of free fall states won't let him ledge grab) hold him back. I've talked to other people about Meta Knight in this game (including another friend who mains Meta Knight) and they agree with me about these flaws. Hell, some of his hit boxes could use some serious adjustment. His down tilt almost goes through Pit's whole foot before doing any damage. The reason why I worry about Meta Knight going down the tier list from custom moves is because he doesn't benefit from them anywhere near as much as a lot of other lower tier character. His best custom moves only affect his side specials and the one that's probably the best one forces Meta Knight mains to abandon a bunch of strategies involving his drill that are no longer possible with that specific custom move because it can't be angled.

 

[warionumbah2]

Can you post agif on ito doing that? Because its basic knowledge to not tornado off the ledge especially when you have full control of its movements. Katakiri is the only MK in the world who uses tornado that much, he uses it more than any of us and effectively because of this he doesn't feel confident using HSD I think I said this in an old post here. If you don't use tornado as much as Katakiri then you won't have to worry about SDing unless you completely flop simple inputs.

Dunno it seems weird that he has 2 projectile moves in kirby games but has non here, but sakuwhy is the creator so yeah...

When I see mid tier I view it as characters that don't suck but they are heavily limited to the point where their mus against the top isn't good, low tier is basically saying he sucks imo. Low tiers have **** mus against alot and I mean alot of high tiers.

That's itol though, the guys used to using diddy(still does)who is clearly number 1 so seeing MK who's indisputably high tier or above average with limitations made him drop him for a bit. Once again I disageee with falcon being a bad mu, you can agree with itols view on the mu(cause I know you got that from his other posts) but I'll be on the side where I think MK wins with a slight advantage. Sonic is a bad mu but on platform stages I can honestly say its not that bad no worse than 60:40 unknown who isn't the best MK lost 2-1 to seagull jo that is an accomplishment after we were moaning about how hard sonic is to beat. Diddy is at worse 60:40 with customs it becomes less In his favor because of *drum roll*HSD.

Only strategy for drill rush is to stage spike, that is it. This move I promise you won't be useful later in the meta I give it by the end of 2015 when people view MK as a high tier and lurk these boards educate themselves on the move set. People who know their characters limitations off stage will not bother edgeguarding us. HSD helps us in a long term invalidating villagers bs, shutting down projectile zone base characters, improving our neutral ever so slightly. Once again alot of mus don't change much a selected few get the 1 up on MK but others either stay weak or get even weaker because of this move.

Im positive about MKs future performance in customs, if you don't think MK is any good in customs which is hilarious imo just use someone else so long as its easy for you that's all that matters.

 

[Seagull Joe]

That's itol though, the guys used to using diddy(still does)who is clearly number 1 so seeing MK who's indisputably high tier or above average with limitations made him drop him for a bit. Once again I disageee with falcon being a bad mu, you can agree with itols view on the mu(cause I know you got that from his other posts) but I'll be on the side where I think MK wins with a slight advantage. Sonic is a bad mu but on platform stages I can honestly say its not that bad no worse than 60:40 unknown who isn't the best MK lost 2-1 to seagull jo that is an accomplishment after we were moaning about how hard sonic is to beat. Diddy is at worse 60:40 with customs it becomes less In his favor because of *drum roll*HSD.

Only strategy for drill rush is to stage spike, that is it. This move I promise you won't be useful later in the meta I give it by the end of 2015 when people view MK as a high tier and lurk these boards educate themselves on the move set. People who know their characters limitations off stage will not bother edgeguarding us. HSD helps us in a long term invalidating villagers bs, shutting down projectile zone base characters, improving our neutral ever so slightly. Once again alot of mus don't change much a selected few get the 1 up on MK but others either stay weak or get even weaker because of this move.

Im positive about MKs future performance in customs, if you don't think MK is any good in customs which is hilarious imo just use someone else so long as its easy for you that's all that matters.

vs is not good. I wasn't camping the game I lost as well as the 1st stock of game 3. When chooses to not approach and chip damage, it becomes a pain for . Probably 40-60 's favor.

 

[warionumbah2]

vs is not good. I wasn't camping the game I lost as well as the 1st stock of game 3. When chooses to not approach and chip damage, it becomes a pain for . Probably 40-60 's favor.

How the **** did you get here????

Yeah we aware on how bad the MU is, thanks for the input though.

 

[Seagull Joe]

How the **** did you get here????

Yeah we aware on how bad the MU is, thanks for the input though.

Namesearch.

 

[W.A.C.]

Can you post agif on ito doing that? Because its basic knowledge to not tornado off the ledge especially when you have full control of its movements. Katakiri is the only MK in the world who uses tornado that much, he uses it more than any of us and effectively because of this he doesn't feel confident using HSD I think I said this in an old post here. If you don't use tornado as much as Katakiri then you won't have to worry about SDing unless you completely flop simple inputs.

I don't have a GIF, but if you go to this stream and set the time to 2:57:00, you can watch a match where not being able to grab onto the ledge after using tornado cost him the game. What'a amazing about this SD is that he hit the ground of the stage, yet for whatever reason the end lag from that move wouldn't let him grab onto a ledge afterwards. If you want examples of him SDing from his down special, I can find examples of that as well.

Dunno it seems weird that he has 2 projectile moves in kirby games but has non here, but sakuwhy is the creator so yeah...

It is weird and could've given him a nice way of forcing opponents go to him, but I don't think his play style needs a projectile.

When I see mid tier I view it as characters that don't suck but they are heavily limited to the point where their mus against the top isn't good, low tier is basically saying he sucks imo. Low tiers have **** mus against alot and I mean alot of high tiers.

My definition of medium tier is someone who is in the middle of the tier list and low tier as lower end of the tier list. How good or bad is a mid tier character depends largely on a game's balance. Melee's balance is so horrible that mid tier is practically considered garbage in that game, where as mid tier in this game is at least good IMO. The reason I feel he might be a low tier character with customs enabled is because I feel a lot of other characters benefit considerably more from customs than Meta Knight. I also hold the belief that most characters in this game are tournament viable unless they have to fight a player like ZeRo with an S tier character.

That's itol though, the guys used to using diddy(still does)who is clearly number 1 so seeing MK who's indisputably high tier or above average with limitations made him drop him for a bit. Once again I disageee with falcon being a bad mu, you can agree with itols view on the mu(cause I know you got that from his other posts) but I'll be on the side where I think MK wins with a slight advantage. Sonic is a bad mu but on platform stages I can honestly say its not that bad no worse than 60:40 unknown who isn't the best MK lost 2-1 to seagull jo that is an accomplishment after we were moaning about how hard sonic is to beat. Diddy is at worse 60:40 with customs it becomes less In his favor because of *drum roll*HSD.

I base the Captain Falcon information from what I've seen, what I've heard, and my experience as a Meta Knight. I typically have more issues fighting Captain Falcon than Sonic or Shiek. When fighting Diddy Kong, I don't have experience fighting a good Diddy Kong with Meta Knight, but my experience as someone who dual-mains both Diddy and Meta Knight makes it very apparent to me how Diddy is a difficult matchup for him.

Only strategy for drill rush is to stage spike, that is it. This move I promise you won't be useful later in the meta I give it by the end of 2015 when people view MK as a high tier and lurk these boards educate themselves on the move set. People who know their characters limitations off stage will not bother edgeguarding us. HSD helps us in a long term invalidating villagers bs, shutting down projectile zone base characters, improving our neutral ever so slightly. Once again alot of mus don't change much a selected few get the 1 up on MK but others either stay weak or get even weaker because of this move.

Im positive about MKs future performance in customs, if you don't think MK is any good in customs which is hilarious imo just use someone else so long as its easy for you that's all that matters.

Most of his custom moves sucks, but his drill customs are worth using. I don't like his HSD custom move, but it's probably his best one even if I enjoy using his other drills more. In terms of his vanilla moveset, I feel his drill is his worst special move. Shuttle Loop is fantastic, tornado is good, and Dimensional Cape is decent, but I feel his standard drill is merely okay. Long startup, major end lag, very punishable, medium reward in most cases, and arguably his riskiest move. Some MK mains hardly use it outside of recovering back to the stage. At least his other special moves tend to have a high payoff if they go extremely well. I wish one of the custom moves made his drill more like how it functions in Project M where it doesn't go as far but it's fast and you can angle. That would've been nice. In terms of which character is easiest for me, it's completely random. Some days I wreck with Meta Knight but don't do so well with Diddy Kong, and some days it's the complete opposite. Meta Knight was promoted from a secondary character to a main because I was doing better with him than anyone else at two tournaments in a row.

 

[warionumbah2]

Unknown beat Windy Kong and was taken to BF too which is Windy Kongs best stage. I'll watch the vid when i get the time but this further proves MK isn't a low tier in custom just because he doesn't have any insane customs to hold his hands.

Edit: SH HSD is great on tall characters, its also apparently difficult to punish MK when he does his free fall the Bowser player constantly whiffed his punish because i SH HSD onto shield. Still not safe but hey.

 

[DelxDoom]

alright i know that the evo sets have already been set up, but after testing i believe dreadful tornado (neutral 3) is the best neutral B because it feels like it starts up faster than mach tornado. it does around 12-13 damage and with the faster startup it feels way more reliable.

 

[PUK]

I love MK, he's seems really good, high tier easily.
About custom, i didn't unlock them, but i like to use nado to get early kill off the top, and if his custom have more KB it's definitively an option.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

We need to start fostering development for our customs meta. I know @ Katakiri is busy/hates customs (I'm also not fond of them) but we can still start labbing for them. Regardless of how we feel about them, some regions are pro customs and staying competitive involves adapting to these obstacles.

 

[Katakiri]

Yeah I've been busy with finals. Sorry bout that.

Personally, I'm giving up MK in customs for Mii Brawler + Kirby. MK has too many MUs that are about even in the regular game that go horribly sour in the customs game. Even some MUs he wins normally goes bad in customs, for example:

(Smallest) 10:90 MU - The Smallest Mii Brawler (and only the smallest one) has a true combo from grab that KOs MK starting at 40% (D-Throw > F-Air > (F-Air >) Helicopter Kick). MK can't DI out due to his "perfect" weight/fall speed combination but most of the cast is in the same boat since it is a true combo so if he predicts the DI, you're dead anyway. Mii Brawler has to win neutral 3 times with the same combo and MK is dead. MK has to work at least 3 times as hard just to take a stock with no good tools for boxing Mii Brawler out. Did I mention he has one of the longest non-tether pivot grabs in the game while being exceptionally fast? Don't get grabbed. (Except there's no Nana to KO so you're never safe.)

30:70 MU - DK can now Up-B out of a lot of our combos safely (and just Up-B in general) and recover for free since the move has invincibility on start that changes to super armor. His Wind Punch gives him instant state control and charges quickly. Hot Slap Down-B is a crazy good edge-guarding tool and just a good move to use underneath a platform since the hitbox is tall enough to hit above the platform he's underneath.

40:60 MU - Because MK's feet dangle when Marth grabs him, MK is guaranteed to get air grab released if Marth pummels him once. MK's grab release jump puts him off-stage and in the perfect position to get Crescent Slash tippered and die at 60% (50% with rage). Crescent Slash is also very good for recovering so it's much harder to gimp Marth. Don't get grabbed.

And again MK wins against those characters normally. So just imagine what the MUs are like against characters that were even or worse for MK in the normal game but got better in customs...etc.

I can place 3rd in customs in my region (with 1st & 2nd being two Mii Brawlers) because I can outplay most players in my region but MK is mid to low-tier in customs. He's not viable. Easy top 15 best in normal Smash 4 but not viable in customs and he didn't get nerfed, in fact he got better by virtue of having more possible tools, everyone else just got that much better than him. BUT the thing to keep in mind is not many characters from mid- or low-tier rose up above him. He's still better than mid-tiers like Pit, Robin, Shulk, Charizard, Dedede, Ganondorf, Greninja, Bowser Jr, and pretty much anyone but Marth, DK, Mii Brawler, & Palutena. The cut-off for viability is just that much worse than in normal Smash 4.

Customs is Marvel vs Capcom 3 or Skullgirls. You fight jank with jank. If I wanted to do that again, I'd go back to playing Skullgirls. I like Smash 4 because of its skillful play that required you to adapt and think on your feet rather than get 3 brain dead combos and win the game or zone-out your opponent with a stupid-good keep-away game. If your character doesn't have jank (MK) or lacks the option to play extremely safe, your character is not viable in customs.

Like here's the character's I think are viable (not outstanding, just viable)in vanilla Smash 4 (and also part of my tier list, character are alphabetical in rows):
A
A-
B
C
*obviously the C tier characters take far more effort to use than A but we've already seen great results from these characters at regionals. Even if you took out the C tier, it's still than the list below.

And here's the viable customs characters imo (in no order):


*Ness and Luigi barely squeeze in due to their ability to play very safe and get KOs when they come to them.

Other characters may be viable secondaries for very specific MUs but those are the characters I think are viable on their own for each metagame. This is of course assuming high-level play for each character. On the bright side, low-tier tournaments are real fun with customs! :^)

So until EVO finally kills this garbage "metagame" called customs, I'm maining Mii Brawler in customs (I'm still always gonna be MK in normal) to both win and get this garbage banned. I could just not go to customs tourneys but I like hanging out with friends more than I hate customs.

I'll definitely try to help you guys out with customs match-ups since I kinda know how to fight all the customs viable characters with MK except Lucario & Palutena (I don't fight many of them) but don't expect much video footage of me using MK in customs.

 

[AmishTechnology]

I was always cautious about the whole customs fad... Everyone's always arguing "dood, it increases viable character count and diversity and stuff!"

No, cookie cutter **** for each MU will always prevail once everything's figured out. A lot of the top tiers, contradictory to what people have been saying, become even BETTER, moreso than what the low tiers get. And a lot of the tools that such characters get make the game even less fun. Oh yay, Charizard gets a cool, viable tool via Dragon Rush! Oh, what's that? Villager gets a goddamn un-grabbable banana that lasts for multiple uses? NO ONE can argue against the lameness that customs Rosa and Villager bring.

But you get downvoted if you mention this in reddit and scorned if it's brought up anywhere else, because muh precious palutena customs, muh precious jankey kong, muh precious dragon rush.

That and for wi-fi warriors like me, there isn't really a way to practice with customs anyways. People can and do cheat on Anther's Ladder customs enabled, but it can be just subtle enough that you won't notice; there's a lot of trust and honor involved!

Yeah, customs has potential for some cool **** (yolo custom Fox vs ... I don't know... Diddy?). But the negatives outweigh the positives imo.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

So I tried to unlock all the customs for last night. Got them all in about 30 minutes. Spent 2 hours trying to get 's. Got absolutely nothing.

I think this is a sign. -_-

 

[AmishTechnology]

It's okay, HSD is the only usable one anyways.

 

[PUK]

I'm working on stealth cape actually, and it manages to interrest me a little.
While your not intangible and you can be seen, depending of the background it can be really hard. In double it can be a very useful option.
You have full control over your move, and the distance is huge, making it a good recovery options i guess, but a good bait and punish and movement options to.
The hitbox is huge, the damage and knockback are awfully good, and even if you won't land it often it means that you won't sacrifice a kill move.
Cape is overall a very situationnal move, and maybe stealth cape can be used in some situations too? You can punish charged smashes with both, you can recover with both. Other uses need testing, but i play with a friend in a MK ditto and was never punished during the move.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

HSD and Stealth Cape could actually have utility and I am working with those as well. But in addition to the other moves' customs just being really ass and poorly designed to begin with, Mach Tornado and Shuttle Loop are our two best moves and so much so that our metagame revolves very heavily around landing those moves. Seriously Dreadful Nado and Lazy Loop are just horrendous...Sakurai y u do dis? To change those without an equal or better variants makes MK as bad as people think he is lol

 

[W.A.C.]

Considering how I don't think his side special or down special are good moves, it's really unfortunate he doesn't have much better custom variants of those moves.

 

[warionumbah2]

My old posts makes me cringe, HSD is good its a potential SD button so be careful. Would defo use it against certain characters, at least I got something right in my old posts ahaha.

Go 1211 or default, nothing else is viable.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

How bout dat OoS Lazy Loop tho??

 

[PUK]

How bout dat OoS Lazy Loop tho??

It's too slow OOS. It has a surprising power though, and can act as a pseudo counter, but SL is god tier.
Tornado is god tier too, soo it's logic that their custom version are bad in comparison.
Side B and Down B are less good, so we can use custom without regrets. They're are more sidegrades than upgrades, but compared to other's character's custom they're are far from the trash tier.
Also about lasy loop and Stealth cape. SC has like the same height than Lazy loop, so even the gain in recovery doesn't compensate the loss.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

^ I was being sarcastic about Lazy Loop.

 

[AmishTechnology]

My old posts makes me cringe, HSD is good its a potential SD button so be careful.

Haha, mine do too sometimes. Guess I'm not always too far from being a "reddit sheep" sometimes. I still maintain that I just want customs to die. More matchups become unfun (both spectating and playing) rather than fun with customs enabled.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Sorry for bumping this but situational use for Coaster can cause a super stage spike offstage. Question is do you really want to give up SL? Probably not.

And High Speed Drill actually has a hitbox large enough that you can dash to your opponent, drill in the opposite direction, cause them to be hit and pull them in your direction and possibly set up a Tornado or even a Fsmash based on their reaction.