Official Standard Custom Moveset Project: Greninja

[Amazing Ampharos]

Welcome to the official Smashboards Standard Custom Set project. In brief, this project is designed to be a logistical solution to using custom movesets in tournaments by filling many of the in-game slots with the most popular and powerful sets for each character so they can be quickly selected without further 3ds import. This will allow tournaments with customizations on to save large amounts of time throughout the event. More details about the project's ideas and mission can be found here:

http://smashboards.com/threads/project-proposal-we-can-make-custom-moves-fast-easy-and-legal.379555/

Our goal here is to find out what the most popular and powerful sets are for your particular character the best way we know how: asking you the mains of this character. To be clear, we're not talking about disallowing any particular custom sets or even imposing any rules in general; we're talking about making sure the popular and powerful options are simply accessible quickly in a tournament environment as our sole mission. We need up to three critical sets that represent the best options your character has that have wide general utility and from there to fill up to slot 6 with supplemental movesets that will cover less mainstream, more match-up specific, or even teams sets. Slots 7 and 8 are reserved for 2222 and 3333 to allow all moves to be explored more easily in the new metagame, and slots 9 and 10 are left open for 3ds import of non-standard sets.

Please list all movesets in the order NSUD, that is neutral special, side special, up special, and down special. This four digit code will be the naming convention so players can quickly and easily identify which moveset is which.

I know for many characters the default moveset, 1111, is a powerful and useful option. However, it should not be included; the game allows default to be picked regardless of what custom options are prepared so including it does not add any additional options to players.

I further know that some characters may find six slots a large number to fill. Others may find six very limiting. Do your best to pick out the overall six most likely to be picked even if some good stuff has to be left on the table or if some more experimental sets have to be included to fill out six. Every set included is time saved in tournament when that set would be picked, and we want to make the best use we can of these slots.

I would ask that everyone please be respectful of each other's opinions; this game is young, and the metagame is still very much forming so we are likely to each perceive it differently. This project will be revisited throughout the game's lifespan and revised to properly include the most mainstream movesets at the time. What we want for now is what will be commonly selected for now, and don't worry, other options are not being discriminated against as those last two slots are left open for 3ds transfer for a reason. This first version of this project will be refined throughout the rest of the year, but I hope to have a very rough draft up and usable by December 5 so TOs who wish to use the results of this project will have something to plug in for that weekend's worth of events. Thank you for your cooperation in this project, and we look forward to making sure the most useful options are quickly available for your character under this system.

 

[TTYK]

Hmm excellent copy and paste paragraph there lol. But anyways, here, 3111 or 3112 or 1111 or 1112 mostly the default set is best all the other custom specials are extremely tacky. More like something you would use with your friends, not in competitive play.

 

[FullMoon]

I myself think 3112 is the best for Greninja. Shifting Shuriken is just very good for securing a kill and Exploding Substitute is... Not that good, but better than regular Substitute anyway, you might actually hit things with it.

 

[Spirst]

I myself think 3112 is the best for Greninja. Shifting Shuriken is just very good for securing a kill and Exploding Substitute is... Not that good, but better than regular Substitute anyway, you might actually hit things with it.

I prefer default substitute to the exploding one. It's situational, sure, but all 3 are. The default substitute is more flexible and has some niche uses like escaping being juggled with an upwards sub>uair. Also works for using a substitute before Mega Man's crash bomb explodes on you. Not gonna see it much but it's good to know it's there.

As said, 3111 and 1111. Shadow dash was useful but with the nerfs reducing KO power and increasing that of shadow sneak marginally, I prefer the latter. Every bit counts.

 

[MartinAW4]

I think all of us can agree that by far Greninja`s best custom move is still Shifting Shuriken (custom 3 standard special) despite losing a lot of combo potential after the lag increase on all versions of Water Shuriken.
The second one that some people might want to use is Shadow Dash (custom 3 side special) but I think the standard Shadow Sneak is better.
For the rest I think the standard moves are the best in most situations so in my opinion the first 3 sets should definitely be:
Set 1: 3111 (only Shifting Shuriken)
Set 2: 3311 (Shifting Shuriken + Shadow Dash)
Set 3: 1311 (only Shadow Dash)

Here I`ll go over all the customs that are left starting with the ones that I think have the most potential and ending with the ones that nobody would likely want to use:

Spoiler: My opinion on Greninja`s custom moves

Single-Shot Pump (custom 3 up special):
Hydro Pump used to be by far the best Up special in practically every situation, but after the pushback nerf, Single-Shot Pump seems like a better alternative for gimping characters with bad recoveries like Little Mac, Mario, Link... Even though it does not keep the opponent in a helpless state after they use their Up B, the knockback angle is so great that it doesn`t even matter. They get sent pretty far away from the stage and sligtly downwards, making it impossible for them to return without a good recovery. It is also easy to hit because it creates a long wall of water separating the opponent from the stage. And while it is not as versatile as a recovery move, it still gets you back on stage from basically anywhere if combined with Shadow Sneak.
I think this is the only custom worth using among the ones that are left and is great at what it does.

Shadow Strike (custom 2 side special):
This is by far Greninja`s most powerful kill move. The forward hit deals 15 damage and is as strong as a fully charged sweetspot Dsmash (the new stronger one) and the backwards hit deals 17 damage and is as strong as a fully charged Fsmash (kills Mario from the edge of FD at 59%).
It also has built-in fast fall, so you can short hop over a projectile, disappear and reappear on the ground to hit the opponent.
The range of the shadow is also about 33% longer than standard Shadow Sneak`s range.
However it has huge startup and end lag, so it is almost impossible to hit an opponent with it and is extremely punishable. You can`t even really use it to punish edgeguarders when coming back to the stage because the automatic fast fall and huge lag will cause you to die unless you time it perfectly or use it with a stronger custom Up B. And if you accidentally use it while trying to recover, you`re basically dead.
So while Greninja would appreciate an extremely strong kill move, I think the cons outweigh the pros in this case, so I don`t think this move is worth using over the standard Shadow Sneak which is much more versatile and still a decent kill move.

Substitute Ambush (custom 3 down special):
Compared to the standard Substitute it has longer invincibility frames during which it activates, it tracks the opponent`s position, deals around 30% more damage and deals huge damage to shields. However it has very long lag before it hits which gives the opponent more than enough time to shield or move away and cause the attack to miss because their position is tracked only at the start. It also has huge end lag, which prevents it from following up with any move like you could with standard Substitute and Uair.
So it might work once to break a shield after weakening it with Dair for example against an opponent who doesn`t know how the move works, but once they find out that all they need to do is jump diagonally to avoid the move completely, the move will become practically useless.
That`s why I think standard Substitute is the better move.

Exploding Attack (custom 2 down special):
It deals 10 damage, has slightly lower knockback than an uncharged Fsmash (kills at 100% vs 93%) and doesn`t require you to get hit to activate. However it takes some time before you disappear to gain invincibility and it has high end lag. So I think spot dodge -> Fsmash is simply a better option making Exploding Attack basically useless.

Still Water Shuriken (custom 2 standard special):
It deals slightly more damage than standard WS if all hits connect and has some combo potential while the opponent is stuck inside the shuriken. But the range on it is so bad that I wouldn`t even call it a projectile. I guess it could be used for edgeguarding, but I definitely think it`s not worth using over the other two versions which work great for edgeguarding as well but also act as a great projectile unlike this version.

High-Capacity Pump (custom 2 up special):
This is in my opinion Greninja`s most useless custom move. It trades damage, gimping ability and speed for sligtly more distance traveled compared to the standard Hydro Pump. I think nobody will ever want to use this move in a tournament.

So the 6 sets I propose are:
Set 1: 3111
Set 2: 3311
Set 3: 1311
Set 4: 1131
Set 5: 3131
Set 6: 1331

 

[Gunla]

Other than the classic set, I tend to utilize 3211, 1311, 3111 and 3131. Most of Greninja's customs are very hit and miss for me:
-Shadow Strike is a move I am a huge fan of; it has a lot of weight to it and it's reliable. Shadow Dash, unlike SStrike and SSneak, did not get buffed, making it a worse option than the other two.
-All of Greninja's shurikens are great, but Still Shuriken kind of disrupts Greninja's flow and playstyle.
-Explosive Attack and Delayed Substitute are a miss, mainly because they are not as useful as other abilities, or, in the case of Delayed, it is a chore to make it connect due to the long delay.
-I'm no fan of Recovery Alternates that take away damage for a better recovery. HC-Pump is one of those moves. SS-Pump is a situational move, but it has its moments.

 

[MartinAW4]

Other than the classic set, I tend to utilize 3211, 1311, 3111 and 3131. Most of Greninja's customs are very hit and miss for me:
-Shadow Strike is a move I am a huge fan of; it has a lot of weight to it and it's reliable. Shadow Dash's nerf makes it a worse option than the other two.
-All of Greninja's shurikens are great, but Still Shuriken kind of disrupts Greninja's flow and playstyle.
-Explosive Attack and Delayed Substitute are a miss, mainly because they are not as useful as other abilities, or, in the case of Delayed, it is a chore to make it connect due to the long delay.
-I'm no fan of Recovery Alternates that take away damage for a better recovery. HC-Pump is one of those moves. SS-Pump is a situational move, but it has its moments.

Wait, Shadow Dash got nerfed? Or do you mean a relative nerf compared to SS which got buffed while SD didn`t?

 

[Gunla]

@ MartinAW4
I was referring to the relative buff SS got while SD got nothing. Apologies on the confusion, will edit previous post.

 

[momochuu]

Shadow Dash also makes you fall really fast for some reason. Can't use it to edgeguard. I just like the default or to just use shifting shuriken. Default substitute is actually not that bad.

 

[Lavani]

Shifting Shuriken is really the only custom I use, and even then I prefer the default usually. A case could probably be made for Shadow Dash, but upB and downB I'd always leave default.

...is what I originally came in here to say, but I gave all of his customs another look-over in training before posting and found I actually love Exploding Attack. While it doesn't have startup invincibility, Greninja is invincible both while invisible and during the attack. More importantly, the blast radius is huge and Greninja stalls when using the attack midair. Combined with its KO power, it looks to have the makings of an absolutely terrifying edgeguarding tool.

That said, I'm tossing my vote out to the following sets:
1112
3112
3111

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Throwing my vote with the following sets:

Default
1112
3111
3112
1312
1311
3312
3311

I think those 8 cover everything most Greninja players will want. Shifting Shuriken and Water Shuriken have both their uses; while Shifting sets up kills and such, Water is good at creating quick pressure and getting damage on campers who can keep away from Shifting's slow projectile speed. The subs don't have as much variation to me, as they're both usable in various situations, the major difference being that normal Sub can kill easier and is a legit counter but it's harder to hit and that Exploding sub hits easier but its damage/kill potential is lower and it's not a real counter. The last ones are basically for the small, but strong, number of people who prefer Shadow Dash to Shadow Sneak. This leaves the last two open slots for the people who like SS2 and any of the HP customs.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

It sounds like the three sets Lavani mentioned most cover critical sets for Greninja and that we just need to figure out the best niche stuff which is basically picking out three Shadow Dash variants since there seems to be a consensus that it's the main "extra" thing people might want. 1311, 1312, and 3312 sound reasonable?

 

[Marilink]

Laundry's list looks pretty all-inclusive to me. I back what he said, for all the same reasons.

 

[AJ34]

Very simple here, just use 3111. None of the other ones are very useful.

 

[Gunla]

From Amazing Ampharos's "Initial" Release of the Official Custom Moveset Project:
Greninja

Critical Sets:

1112
3112
3111

Supplemental Sets:

1311
1312
3312

I'll just copy and paste my thoughts below:

Excellent choices on the Greninja side imo. You got the major ones (1112, 3111, 1311) and some experimental Shadow Dash sets as well, focusing on Greninja's most used customs (Side 3, Neutral 3, Down 2)

The omission of what's not present is a good choice, because mainly they're worse options (like High-Capacity Pump) or the deviations are not very viable (Delayed Substitute).

While we may have not given a finalization, I'll send your sets to them and check in.

How do you guys feel with these being our 6? What would you add or remove, if anything?

 

[Funkermonster]

I go with:

3112
3111
1111
1112

Haven't used Stagnant Shuriken in the heat of battle but it sure seems greatly outclassed by the other two.. Still seems like a good move on its own though, might wanna mess around with it and see if I can do anything with it for funsies.. Once I get my 3DS back from my mom, maybe someone could play me online and help me screw around in the lab?

 

[KERO]

Seems like all our core movesets are covered honestly. Given that we only really have three customs that we tend to use, though, it's not too surprising that getting six movesets together was quite a bit simpler than some other characters.

 

[Ice Prince]

1112 for me. I've come to really like Explosion.

Good edge guarding tool, and you can safely recover afterwards. Decent at crowd control as well in a full on melee.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

So we have room for four more Greninja sets in theory. I got nothing but good feedback on the six we already had:

1112
3112
3111
1311
1312
3312

What I gather is that Stagnant Shuriken is the most preferred option of those not listed so maybe 2111, 2112, 2312, and either 2311 or 3311 to round Greninja out? Does using side-2, up-variants, or down-3 ever make sense on Greninja? If not, this would seem to be an easy decision.

 

[Gunla]

So we have room for four more Greninja sets in theory. I got nothing but good feedback on the six we already had:

1112
3112
3111
1311
1312
3312

What I gather is that Stagnant Shuriken is the most preferred option of those not listed so maybe 2111, 2112, 2312, and either 2311 or 3311 to round Greninja out? Does using side-2, up-variants, or down-3 ever make sense on Greninja? If not, this would seem to be an easy decision.

Side 2, the Pump Variants, and Down 3 are rarely used, that is correct. They're very predictable and not exactly that viable compared to the other specials.
Those first 6 are great, and don't need altercation. As for the final sets, I'd say that 2111 should definitely be one of them, and maybe 3311.

 

[Lavani]

Has anyone been messing with up-3? The fact that the water becomes a hitbox instead of a windbox and has horizontal knockback with a lot of downward reach makes it seem to me that it may have some unexplored potential for gimping low recoveries; it doesn't strike me as the sort of thing I'd use over the current sets, but none of the remaining customs do so I'm just trying to be open-minded about our remaining options.

Down-3 has hideous end lag that both prevents combo followups to the counterattack and makes it punishable at lower percents; its only real saving grace over the default is the fact that it will shield break if the opponent tries to shield the counterattack, and that isn't a gimmick that's going to work more than once.

Side-2 is trash, up-2 is a special kind of trash.

I have no personal experience with Stagnant Shuriken; it's likely the most viable of the remaining customs, but I'm not really sure what we get out of it over the other shurikens. Greninja can't act until near the end of the shuriken's lifespan and it seems too slow to use defensively...I'll give it the benefit of the doubt and assume I'm just missing something about it.

Agreeing with @ Gunla that 3311 and 2111 should be added, at any rate. We could probably round it off with 2112 and 2311 if nobody's a fan of up-3.

 

[Jaguar360]

Echoing 3311, 2111 and 2112.
I haven't touched the Hydro Pump customs at all yet, so I can't comment on them. Haven't messed all that much with Shifting Shuriken, but it seems like it has its uses.
Everything on Down B 3 and Side B 2 has been said already.

 

[mimgrim]

I would suggest filling the last four spaces with 3311, 2111, 2112, and either 2311 or 2312 to have those who like Stagnant Shuriken + having Shifting Shuriken covered fully.

I have no personal experience with Shifting Shuriken; it's likely the most viable of the remaining customs, but I'm not really sure what we get out of it over the other shurikens. Greninja can't act until near the end of the shuriken's lifespan and it seems too slow to use defensively...I'll give it the benefit of the doubt and assume I'm just missing something about it.

I think you might be confusing Stagnant Shuriken with Shifting Shuriken here.

 

[◥θ┴θ◤ | JJ]

I haven't found much use for Greninja's customs outside of Exploding Attack & Shifting Shuriken. I can see Shadow Sneak & Stagnant Shuriken finding some good use, but I was never able to do much with them.

1112 & 2112 are Greninja's best sets in my opinion.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Take note, this part here's a copied and pasted message! But please read it anyway:
As we begin to approach the deadline for creating 10 custom sets for each character, we believe it's time to make sure that your conversations are staying on track, and that we evaluate the progress of your discussions. As such, we have prepared a preliminary lineup of custom sets based on what your conversations have led to. Feel free to adjust and update this list as necessary. After all, we want each character to be brought to their best potential!

We are going to begin to create the finalized sets on March 17th, so make sure you conclude any discussion you're having by then.

Preliminary Custom Sets:
Greninja:

1/3, 1/3, 1, 1/2 niche 2XXX

1112, 1311, 1312, 3111, 3112, 3311, 3312
niche: 2111, 2112, 2311

I would like to personally thank the Greninja board for making this very easy; you guys by my reckoning were the single easiest board to satisfy and feel confident we have good sets. I only ask this. For the very last set, would you prefer 2311 as currently listed or 2312? Unless I'm missing something (and let me know if I am!), that should be the only concern remaining for this character.

 

[mimgrim]

I would go 2312 for better diversity. But it doesn't matter much either way.

 

[◥θ┴θ◤ | JJ]

2312. Exploding Attack is just plain better.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Really no strong opinions on the customs besides exploding attack. Simply running of the stage and using it when the opponent is recovering low is really effective for edge guarding, especially on stages with weird ledges like Lylat. It also counters grabs and it doesnt require you to be hit to use. I think it's probably better than default even if you lose the mobility from Sub.

With customs on I use Exploding Attack and defaults. I prefer standard Hydro Pump and Shadow Sneak for the versatility. I don't know what exactly Shifting Shuriken offers over default, how is it different exactly?

 

[mimgrim]

Shifting Shuriken is transcendent and really fleshes out his combo game and kill confirms with how it pops the opponent. Soft Shifting Shuriken (Press and release) doesn't go so far but will pop the opponent straight up for an easy Uair follow-up. Hard Shifting Shuriken (Press and hold) goes out a good length (I forget the exact length but I think it might be close to a UWS? though I could be confusing it with the Length of a FWS) and will bring the opponent in towards you with a follow up for high damage (example being Utilt to Uair or just a raw Fsmash) or kill confirm (sweet-spotted Usmash or Fair). It's actually really really great imo and I can't think of much reason not to use it outside of very specific MUs.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Transcendent as in unbeatable priority? Huh. That does sound promising, even if you'd be losing the frame traps that charged shurikens can create. I'll try it out, and I'll support both exploding attack and defaults and shifting shuriken, exploding attack and defaults.

Edit: I used it all night tonight and yeah, it's sweet lol. Shuriken to nair, fair, and up smash is brutal.

 

[LRodC]

I realize I might be bumping this thread pretty late, but what makes High Capacity Pump so bad? Its recovery potential is really nice and it's very easy to control. The regular Hydro Pump doesn't do much damage at all so I'm not seeing how it's a huge advantage except for maybe the speed? It also circumvents the problem of bouncing on the side of the stage and dying.

 

[mimgrim]

Default Hydro Pump is faster, recovers just as good, resets the neutral, and is a very strong off-stage tool for gimping the opponent. High Capacity Pump becomes easier to control for the loss of utility that Hydro Pump has and is overall less safe as well.

 

[LRodC]

Default Hydro Pump is faster, recovers just as good, resets the neutral, and is a very strong off-stage tool for gimping the opponent. High Capacity Pump becomes easier to control for the loss of utility that Hydro Pump has and is overall less safe as well.

I'll give you the other stuff, but it doesn't recover "just as good". I can name multiple times when it fell just short of reaching the ledge when using Hydro Pump. Now the speed definitely makes up for that shortcoming, but in terms of pure recovery distance, HCP outdoes Hydro Pump. I don't think it's a completely terrible option for one that just aids recovery and allows you to go more crazy off stage. For a best all around solution? Maybe hydro pump.

 

[mimgrim]

The difference in distance is negligible.